Did the Reds really turn down Shane Victorino because of Logan Ondrusek?
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Did the Reds really turn down Shane Victorino because of Logan Ondrusek?
David Murphy
If the Cincinnati Enquirer is to be believed, the Phillies could struggle to gain anything of value in exchange for center fielder Shane Victorino.
Paul Daugherty, a columnist at the paper, included a tidbit on his blog that said the Reds nixed a deal that would have seen Victorino head to the Reds in return for Ondrusek, straight up.
Ondrusek is a 27-year-old righthander who is in the middle of his third full season in the major leagues. His 2.70 ERA looks good, but everything else about him says that he is at best a No. 4 or No. 5 reliever in a contender's bullpen (which is where he slots in the Reds bullpen). His strikeout rate is passable -- 6.1-per-nine this year, 6.0 for his career -- but he has walked at least 4.0 batters-per-nine in the last two seasons, which isn't something you want to see out of a guy who is pitching in high-leverage situations. If you do see it, you better be getting more than 6 strikeouts-per-nine.
That being said, he has gotten results, converting 31-of-37 hold/save opportunities in his career while stranding 77 of 97 inherited runners, and his groundball and home run rates are both solid. His whiff rate (17 percent), is slightly above average, as is his strike rate (62 percent).
Frankly, if the Phillies are hoping to get relief help in exchange for Victorino, which is what all of the indications are, Ondrusek is about the level of guy they can realistically expect. Anybody better is probably going to be an integral part of a contending team, which is the type of team that would be trading for Victorino. The only hope is that teams get more desperate as the deadline approaches.
Frankly, this sounds like it would have been a great trade for the Reds. From the Philies perspective, it would have been a cheap, usable bullpen piece who is better than anybody they have at the moment, aside from Antonio Bastardo and Jonathan Papelbon. But he profiles closer to Michael Schwimer than he does Papelbon. Ondusek would give the Phillies what they hoped they were getting when they signed Chad Qualls. But according to Daugherty, he won't be giving them anything.
Comments (71)
At this point in time, keep the Flyin Hawaiin. Three crazy games won at CBP over the Brewers. Two amazing come from behind wins followed by a "we keep tryin' to give it away" but win anyway game. One game at a time...One game at a time.— drhoffman- Dusty turned this down.
Victo likely walks outta here in the next 6 days for a bullpen arm. Linked to Josh Lindblom, and a couple other clubs with comparable arm-for-legs deal. Phils can't 'afford' to not move him.
Rollo doesn't go because the Dodgers have made their infield move; he'll turn down Oakland, and with two walk-off hits in 5 days he's feeling pretty good. This'll be the worst non-call of this season unfortunately.
Still need a legit 3B'er which we all have yearned for since October '11 came crashing to a close. The Phils apparently told the Yankers no on Wiggy; with Polanco again in the tub this offensively and defensively may be the biggest hole on the team (assuming the bullpen can wake-up).
Stay tuned. Hot stove is heating up in late July.— 24sDad - If the Reds nixed this they are stupid. Vic would be a huge upgrade over Stubbs or Stubbs goes to left. Laughable if this report is true.— philsfan in the atx
- Wiggington should only be allowed to play in the field after everyone else has been used -- including pitchers. I'm sure Doc, Cliff, Cole, etc., can play a better third base than (fat & slow) Wiggington. He really is pathetic in the field -- really!— Al n SD
- A few minutes ago on the Yankees' radio broadcast John Sterling seriously suggested that the Yanks should consider trading for Wigginton to help fill in for A-Rod. The NY Daily News writer who was guesting during that inning just kind of politely brushed that aside. — RickB
- John Sterling is the most obnoxious play-by-play guy in the game. So obnoxious, I wonder if Yankees fans even like him. — JayOfDaJungle
- Well, the Brewers gave all this games to the Phillies. They did everything possible to lose this game from walking batters to bad base running and bad managing. Why pitch to Chooch today? He's hitting .354 in RISP. A good team sweeps the Phillies. The starting pitching has been a concern, and this series was not an exception. Only Blanton has pitches well lately. The starters ERA the last few games has to be around 6.00.— EL Zorro
- The Reds, figuring they had the upper hand, probably wanted the Phillies to kick in some cash for Victorino's remaining salary.
By the way, Bastardo and Wiggington tried everything they could do to give the game to Milwaukee today. I'd get rid of both of them before Shane.— T-Money - Do the Reds have someone who can play third base? Wigginton surely cannot.— tbird
- when i see wigg - i always see stairs in him
imagine stairs playing 3rd - awesome...— LivePhilly_DiePhilly - we should re-sign victo on the cheap. trade mayberry & brown, they are worthless— main liner
- brilliant! trade worthless players and get nothing in return!! where do you come up with this? — wobblie
- to lose this series, I meant.
— EL Zorro - What about rollins in the 3rd with a man on 3rd one out coming up with NOTHING. I told my friend that would come back to haunt them and it did. Bastardo pitching to Braun was all wrong there should have been a righty in there in the first place...nice managing charlie. But like i said before, real phils fans just want to see competitive baseball, out of the race or not. MARK IT DOWN BABY!!— Trot
- Keep Shane Victory-yes, unless someone offers a prize chip, which is doubtful. Victory-yes is still a terrific ballplayer and I'd rather get a draft pick next year than another "dog"to hang out in the pen.— gentian
- I'm guessing you don't make your living coming up with nicknames ...
— phillyl0 - Phillies would do well to unload Pence at first opportunity -- maybe even make it a 2-fer. Pence goes and they throw in Wiggington for free -- then again nobody may want to take Wiggie, even if he's free.— Al n SD
- Bastardo is taking the heat for Braun's homerun, but why give Manuel a free pass for leaving him in there to pitch? If this year has served any value, it is to unmask Manuel's deficiencies as a manager. His moves - or lack thereof - have cost us at least a dozen games this year.— DameB
- Before anyone gets too excited about the Phil's chances, remember that Schwimer had half the wins of Doc and twice as many as Lee.— butchcat
- The Phillies have to trade anyone they do not have in their plans for next year even if it costs them a POSSIBLE spot in the playoffs. They have to start preparing for another long run. Hamels signing is probably a morale booster for the whole team. I am not looking at 3 impossible wins over a tomato can like Milwaukee as any indication that they are out of the woods. If they do not plan to overpay Victorino, he should go. If they can get bullpen help for Juan Pierre, Ty Wiggington or Mike Fontenot, so should they. Polonco will not get them anything in his condition so they might as well keep him for his glove. Eric Kratz is a nice surprise. Maybe somone will take Brian Schneider for a minor leaguer.— gotedge
- Understood, but shouldn't you at least wait until this series against the Braves before NOT counting it as an indication.
"Frankly", it is hard to come back against any team in late innings, because it requires having high morale in the face of doubt. Having 4 high energy come-backs is nothing short of sweet.
So while you may be looking ahead to next year. There is still over 2 months of baseball to played. THAT'S RIGHT - 2 MONTHS. We'll play 9 games with the Braves over those 2 months.— MFPhils - if they can't get much for Victorino they should hold him until the end of the season...still outrageous that Rube now needs to weaken the team to get a middle reliever becuase all he did in the off-season was get useless trash like Qualls and Willis...as disappointing Victorino has been this year. would hate to watch this team even more without at least one starting outfielder who can actaully catch the ball ..one sees how pathetic fielders like Pierre, Wigginton and Pence are who regularly cost ball games and extend the awful bullpen ...Victorino is an emotional sort, clearly affected by Phils disinterest in re-signing him and attempts to trade him, but might be better if deadline expires and he's still on team (though this looks unlikley)... watching Rube operate, I now expect him to trade Lee away for salary relief— warbiscuit
- Yes, Charlie leaving Bastardo to pitch to two straight RH, including Braun, who is leading the league in HR, was another of many brain cramps by the beloved Cholly.— EL Zorro
- Yes, because he has soooo many other viable options in that situation. — SweetsErik
- How about Michael Schwimmer, who over his last six appearances (5 inn.) hasn't allowed an ER, only 1 hit while striking out 5. Sometimes is better to check the facts before making a comment which will make you look foolish. — EL Zorro
- Why not keep him and see if you can re-sign him? If all he is worth is a middle reliever why do you think that teams will be lining up to pay him big dollars in the off season? You can let a player test FA to set a value and then decide if it is a number you want to pay. If someone does pay him too much it just means the Phillies get a better compensation pick which is more valuable than a middle reliever. Address that in the off season.— UncleStosh
- He has little trade value now because of his contract situation. Any team that trades for him will only have him for two months and will get no compensation when he leaves. That has nothing to do with his value on the free agent market. — phillyl0
- Oh, I'm sorry, are we still pretending that the Phillies are playing for something this season?— UncleStosh
- The Phils are still NINE games below .500. At absolute best they will hit the .500 mark at 64-64. More realistically it will be at 66 or 67. But even at 64, if they then went 23-11, they would still have won only 87 games, almost certainly not enough to make the post-season. And 23-11 is wildly optimistic. So get whatever you can for Victorino, he won't be here in 2013 anyway.— princeton22
- 7-6,7-6,7-6........this is the best of philly numbers (hail to Ben Franklin, Cholly and Chooch)
— NewMick314 - I agree with the posters who have already said that if thats all they can get for Victorino then they might as well play the year out with him. It's not like they have some young prospect who's being blocked in center by Vic. This team has enough mediocre relievers. This guy's #'s say that his era is misleading and he's probably been very lucky this season. Unless you're adding in a positive way to the team then all you would be doing is saying to the fans that management is just trying to save some cash for the rest of the season and we are basically running up the white flag.— Sewellmatt
- It's not a matter of just "saving cash." They can't go over the luxury tax threshold two years in a row without facing severe penalties. The Hamels deal means they are most definitely going to cross the threshold next year, so they need to get under for this season. — itsRyan
- Yanks were looking heavily at victorino with Gardner and swisher out but passed on him after the Ichiro pick up— Km3737
- Princeton22: Hope you really don't expect anyone to believe that name has anything to do with you in the real world! Don't know what your point in picking 64 was. Oh, I get it. That number was out there in the air, just floating around. Also don't know what your point in picking out 87 happened to have been. Oh, I see, the same sort of floating around! Additionally, what with the way other teams are playing, there is no reason to suspect 87 wins would not be enough to be one of the two wild cards. At this point, your brand of "realism" makes not difference! They need to be hot to the end. Perhaps not quite so hot as the 1951 Giants, who were 39-8 down the stretch, but quite HOT. Is it probable? Probably not. Is it possible? Outside the so-called minds of boo boo birdies as yourself, YES it is. People in Philadelphia, I have continued to learn since the 40's would rather quit than TRY! (That goes for dopes as you, UncleStosh!)— BEMiller
- Go back and look at the year end standings for the past 10 years. 90 wins is likely to be at least and 2nd best record for a non-division winner, and thus the second wild card. 89 wins is a good bet. 88 - not so much. And 87 is possible but with long odds. (Not sure of rules if two teams tie for 2nd WC, but counting that hypothetical situation as making the playoffs.)
Here are the actual figures. The numbers are arranged as follows:
#wins: # of teams making at least the 2nd WC; # of teams tied for 2nd WC; # of teams not making it
90: 12; 2; 6
89: 7; 5; 8
88: 4; 3; 7
87: 1; 3; 16— judas_priest - another example of the phillies over valuing their own players.
— tony bell - What killed the Yankee deal was Amaro asking for too much. Then Vic got hit in the elbow and they turned to Ichiro. The Reds never make big trades during the deadline. Remember, they gave San Diego a lot of good prospects for Latos in the offseason.— EL Zorro
- Pence or Cliff Lee may be the last worthwhile chips the Phillies have left to rein in a top notch third baseman.
It seems Rollins and Victorino are as worthless to other clubs as they are to the Phillies. Might as well keep them until the end of the season.
Can't they put some putty or crazy glue on Polanco and send him back out there.
The mini run that the club is having may inhibit them from making a move until yearend.
Now if they were to sweep the Braves this weekend....
I might jump back on the bandwagon myself !— candidly - Here's the deal. Your 2 bigest needs are a 3rd baseman and a reliable right handed relief pitcher. Keep Victorino, he is your best outfielder by far. Pence has to go, he could drive you nuts. I would rather see Brown brought back.— Da Nuck
- With the Phillies late comeback surge in the last handful of games, they may decide to keep Victorino for the rest of the season and just let him walk in free agency. For what they would get in return for Victorino, they may as well let him help them at least try to finish the season over .500, which would allow them to retain a sliver of respectability.— SteveS11
- . . . "it would have been a cheap, usable bullpen piece who is better than anybody they have at the moment, aside from Antonio Bastardo and Jonathan Papelbon."
Uhh, Murph, by 4:52 pm when this article was posted Bastardo AGAIN coughed up the big one by surrendering a two run game tying BOMB! You can't be serious, are you?
At this juncture Chollie has continually expressed faith that Schwimer and Diekman would develop, and right now I would rather see them in there than Bastardo. He needs a trip up 476 to get his head removed from his derriere.— Steve Knepp - In the Pittsburgh papers it says the Pirates made an offer for Victorino, but the Phillies wanted Lincoln which nixed that deal. It's not our money so we shouldn't care but the Phillies have a lot of incentive to shed payroll and get under the luxury tax threshold this year since they are out of contention and look to be over next year. The luxury tax escalates each consecutive year a team is over and even though the threshold goes up after next year, salaries will go up to and they are going to need to be able to get some players if Howard, Rollins, Lee and Papelbon are scuffling a couple of years from now. They'll trade guys, but if you aren't happy with the return and there's still a few days to go, you might was well hang on a little bit more.— jtj06
- Hey Cliff Lee after watching the replay of Zack Greinke take a Happy Gilmore swing off you i have just one thing to say ..........
you need to Knock some batters down they re looking way too comfortable swinging at your first pitch strikes .and the rest of the Red Pinstripes Get the dude some runs— jgf - I think compensation has changed, if Shane goes free agent they don't get a draft pick.
— Eephus - The Phillies will get compensation only if they offer Shane a one-year guarantee contract of $12.5 millions, which will be the average of the top 125 highest paid players in the league. Obviously, he has to decline it. There are not Type A or B FA anymore, and you can't offer arbitration to FA. Only the aforementioned guarantee contract, which will increase as salaries increase. — EL Zorro
Comment removed.- Rube, Dave, & fellas : Let's be 'buyers.' Let's stand pat, hold the present core together, strengthen the bullpen, and make a run. This present Phils team has for years been a 2nd-half team, and there enough games left against NL East foes. Let's be buyers and go for it.
- People are posting on here like the Phillies are in the thick of the pennant race. I'm rooting for them also, but let's be realistic concerning this year. They need to play at well over a .600 clip and hope a few teams in front of them sputter badly.— DameB
- Wow, you guys are clueless. Victorino would have to be offered 12.5 mil to receive a sandwich round pick. He has admitted being on a 1 year deal has distracted him. Why on earth would people bank on that? Even with their comeback wins against the only other bullpen in the NL worse than theirs, with the possible exception of the Mets, they have not picked up any ground in the standings, as the Braves, Nats, and many more have matched their wins. They only really gained on Milwaukee, NYM and Miami. Using the Cards comeback from last year, they only had to catch one team, not pass 9 other teams in the process. They are done for this year, sell off the guys that won't be back, it is how baseball is run.
And the guy who said be buyers, how can they do that with nothing to trade and no money to spend this season?— craigmack - Phills have no one to play CF if they trade Shane. Mayberry could do it when lefty pitcher is opponent but what about the other 110 games? It was said by one of the writers that Mayberry is one of the classiest guys in clubhouse. I can believe it. You never see JMJ complain even when homeplate ump makes very questionable call against him. Play Fontenot at 3B. Too bad Rolen not the same player since injury. Then if he was same player no one would be looking to unload him.— Don w
- The upside of this report is that re-signing Victorino could be relatively cheap. If he tests free agency .... yeah, good luck with that. He has a home in Philly unless the Phils - wisely - go after Bourn in the off-season to undo another trade.— VANDERGRAAFK
- Why would the reds give away a key bullpen piece, that is cheap, young, on the improve, and under club control till 2017 for a rent a player? Stubbs in not leaving center field, just the way it is. That leaves us left field with a platoon of hiesey and more so ludwick, who is hitting about .280 with 10 home runs and 30 or so rbis in the last two months. Yes we have a third baseman. A guy named frazier who is a leading canidate in the N.L rookie of year, and the aging but sometimes productive Scott Rolen. So why would give away a key young arm out of our major league leading bullpen for an agin, expensive, rent-a-player?— brockcarson
- It appears that in order to get a legitimate third baseman for next year, Lee would have to be traded. Olt and Ramirez or Olt and Martin would seem very fair. Martin is a center fielder that appears to be ready right now. Olt would be our 3rd baseman, hopefully beginning when the 40 man roster opens up in 4 weeks.— GOLDY2007
- Keep Vic. I don't want to see him go, but if he has to, get something worthwhile in return.— pizzzmoe
- ... maybe the reds see shane for what he has become and not what he was...
— LivePhilly_DiePhilly - I hope we didn't ask for Ondrusek— njd3x3x3xchamps
- I think the pitching staff would like a great defense behind them. If that means weak bat but strong glove at 3rd base then go for it.— charladan
- @ Da Nuck- it is this kind of idiocy that drives me nuts. Dom Brown? Who can't stay healthy and who has not enjoyed sustained success and is now 24. Want to know what Hunter Pence did at 24 in MLB? He had 456 AB's/ 17 HR's/ 69 RBI's/ and hit .322! Pence has also demonstrated he can stay healthy, Brown has not. If you think RF's who are on pace to hit 25-30 HR's and 100+ RBI's and still under 30 come around everyday....Newsflash, they don't.— Special Agent Fox Mulder
- you don't get a draft pick, Gentian, unless we make him an offer (which he'll take screwing us as we don't want him). Better to trade for bullpen arm or prospects now and shed salary so we don't go over the tax level this year, saving that for next year— jeff gross
- I agree Wigginton should have caught that ball yesterday. More important, I hope Rollins and others watched what the batter and learned that running out a pop out is not a bad thing. Rollins would never have been on second base on that play.— rolenfan
- No surprise. Vic has a very distorted view of his value.— 4thand10
- Why would you trade Victorino when his stock is at an all time low?? Sign Victorino now, you can probably get him for half that you could have gotten him before the season. Trade Pence!! He is ridiculously overrated. Which is how you get the most return. ML ready 3B prospect and an above average bullpen arm.. Deal done!— FetchDixon
- If the Reds did this they're just dumb, Victorino is an everyday player, they can reach down to Chattanooga , or where ever their minor league affiliate is and find 3 or 4 Logan Ondruseks. Hell, the Phils have sent 6 or 7 of these type pitchers back and forth all season. I have a feeling that if the Phils really wanted to make that deal, the reds would make it.— drbob1
- I'm sure the rest of the league knows that Victorino's trade value is probably near zero. He's overrated and doesn't even play particulary good defense anymore. Sure he looks OK hitting second with big time sluggers Howard and Ruiz behind him try hitting him seventh on a lousy team. Barring some injury to a contending team in CF I don't see him going anywhere.— subgen
- did Clueless Rube really offer Victorino for Logan Andrusek? whatsamatter can't talk Dontrelle to trying again? why not trade Lee to get Qualls back? Contreras should be ready to re-test his 59-year old arm with a little rehab...— warbiscuit
- lost in the exuberance of Ron Roenicke gift-wrapping last 2 games to Phils is how awful Papelbon did everything to lose the game once again until Roenicke inexplicably safety-squeezed with man on 3rd... he out-Chollied Chollie— warbiscuit
- drbob1 I agree with you. I find it hard to believe any team would not trade a 4th or 5th bullpen arm for Victorino. If anyone said no to that deal it was Amaro.— cupajoe
- i love the first post, keep shane because of the awesome come from behind victories this week? really? it's amazing how the fan base is so shortsighted and goes up and down with every win or loss. and can't look at the big picture at all. the brewers bullpen is actually worse than ours. i can't take anything from those wins,nothing was happening in any game until the starters came out. now if they take two of three or sweep the braves,and continue to win some series, then maybe we can start talking about momentum. that said trading one of your starting eight at this point is ridiculous. as dumb a ballplayer as shane is, he is better than anything else we have for the outfield right now. so trade your best outfielder and weaken what already is a weak defensive out field for a bullpen guy, this does not help with a down the stretch run for the playoffs.— deatheater
- Keep Shane; we don't need to give him away for another junk bullpen peice!— JBinPA
- Have you looked at his L/RHP splits and came to their senses.— channelclemente
- Phillies have had luck with slick-fielding CFs over the last decade (or whenever Rowand came over). Doug Glanville was decent too. Phillies don't have a lot of .300+ hitters over the same time span. It could be attributed to the dimensions of the ballpark, but I think a lot has to do with scouting and priorities. Best two hitters (from a contact/base hit perspective) over the last decade were Abreu and Utley. Team needs to focus on locating and developing those guys over the swing-happy folk. (Wonder how well the team would manage if it could simply prolong innings.)
As for Victorino, yeah, his stock is on the decline. Barring an injury and a team in need, he finishes the season in Philly, and they should offer arbitration. Hopefully he'll sign elsewhere.— pillsbury
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