The Phillies Future Is Not Now, but 2013
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The Phillies Future Is Not Now, but 2013
Marc Narducci
Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. says he hasn’t given up on this season. Now only if his team could follow suit.
Before Friday’s 4-2 loss to the Arizona Diamondbacks, Amaro refused to wave the white flag.
“I remain optimistic that we have a chance to get back in this,” he said.
Then it seemed that realism hit.
“It is still a daunting task,” Amaro continued. “The opportunities to get back in the race, particularly the wild card race, will be difficult.”
He didn’t use the word “impossible” although the fan base may feel that way. The Phillies (47-59) are 16 games out of first place in the N.L. East and 13.5 out of the second wild card spot.
And while the players and Charlie Manuel talk about winning as many games as possible, everybody understands that full-fledged auditions for 2013 are under way.
At least the general manager still believes in his personnel.
“We still have a lot of talent on this club,” he said.
Players have echoed this thought, but a team 12 games under .500 can’t be overstocked with talent. Or maybe stretching the point, it is faded talent.
The Phillies have gotten old in a hurry.
Amaro feels the trades that rid the team of the salaries of Shane Victorino, Hunter Pence and now Joe Blanton will give them financial flexibility for next year.
He had a chance to rid himself of Cliff Lee’s contract when the left-hander was claimed off waivers, but Amaro insisted before the game that Lee isn’t going anywhere. While it’s a popular notion to unload Lee’s contract and the estimated $95 million remaining, he still appears as if he can be a quality pitcher. For a team that has too little power and speed, it certainly doesn’t hurt to have pitchers who can keep his teammates in a tight game.
Even though Amaro feels there is talent, he isn’t going into this with blinders. He understands there are several holes to fill.
And there isn’t that much money, regardless of the 255 consecutive regular season sellouts.
As Inquirer Phillies beat writer Matt Gelb has pointed out, the Phillies have $132 million invested in nine players in 2013.
Even if they go over the $178 million luxury tax threshold next year, the money can go fast, especially if spent on a highly regarded free agent.
Before going to next year, Amaro says that he is still addressing this season. He said the team has put in some waiver claims for players.
“We are still trying to improve our club for this year and beyond,” he said.
Looks like beyond is the much better strategy at this point.
Everybody can talk about this year, but despite not wanting to make it look to the fans as if the Phillies have abandoned 2012, every move made should be with 2013 clearly in mind.
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Buy Phillies tickets Comments (49)
If Lee were released, coupled with losing Vic, Pence, Blanton...the Phillies would have freed up over 50 million in salary to play with in 2013(also the final year of Utley, Ruiz, and Halladay's contracts)
2013 Phillies:
OF: LF Domonic Brown 440,000 CF Michael Bourn 12,000,000 RF Josh Hamilton 18,000,000
IF: 3B Rollins 11,000,000 SS Galvis 440,000 2B Utley 15,000,000 1B Howard 25,000,000
C: Ruiz 5,000,000
SP: Hamels 24 mil, Halladay 20 mil, Kendrick, 4 mil, Worley 500,000, Cloyd 440,000— tkohl- Sorry but I look at this team you've assembled and I fail to see a winner. You have 3 question marks in the starting rotation. If we knew that Halliday would be Halliday then maybe, but know body knows. This team can't get rid of Lee cause there is no one out there better, the goal is to out the best players on the field.
Then in the field, it still looks like a bunch of old players out there. It'd be 4 months before people start crying "hamilton's old or a nut case why'd Boobin sign him." Galvis stinks he just has a glove, but that will get old quickly. I just fail to see how this team makes the playoffs as opposed to keeping Lee and getting some solid bullpen help and a center fielder— dmr528 - Hamilton for $18 mill? Why is he giving the Phillies a discount? And if Rollins puts up a stink about moving out of the leadoff spot, is he really going to be willing to move to 3b without pouting all year? Galvis stinks. I would NEVER put Kendrick back in a rotation, and you would have a starting lineup with 5 lefties.
This is possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen and I haven't even addressed that they don't know what Cloyd would be but he doesn't have great stuff. He has been successful in the minors but that doesn't always trnaslate into success in the majors. Are we going to address the bullpen in this scenario?
I don't understand why everyone loves Michael Bourn, he is a 30 year old speed guy represented by Boras. Good player, but his contact will be another Amaro albatross if we sign him and eventually he'll be a 35 year old player that is the same as Juan Pierre but making $15 mill a year.— jimbo jones - I like the thought process, just need to tinker around with some of the names. I doubt Hamilton will get less than 20 and I wouldnt want him anyway, injury prone addicts seem like a bad long term investment. The main problem is our "core" guys dont produce like they get paid too so we need 2 other middle of the order types to make up for it. Counting on Howard to look any better is probably a mistake so the main issue in my mind will be finding a power bat to stick in there at 4 or 5. I also wouldnt count on a repeat out of Ruiz...finding his power this late in his career makes me skeptical he can sustain it. With no on really exciting in free agency I think I would lean towards 1 year stop gaps rather than overpaying for the few "elite" guys like Bourn, Cabrera, Hamilton. Wish our GM wasnt such a moron, but I have zero confidence in his ability to field a good hitting team next year. — lazyboy
- Howard should be benched. I would hope that he would've been placed on waivers but no team would claim him, even if the Phils wanted no players in return, just to get him out of here.— farley
-
Who's having a really good year for the Phils?
Answer: Carlos Ruiz
Which players are/were under-performing the value of their contracts?
Halladay, Lee, Howard, Utley, Rollins, Polanco, Kendrick, Wigginton
(Victorino, Pence, Blanton)
Which developing players have failed to step forward as expected in 2013?
Bastardo, Mayberry
The orchestra played on while the Titanic started sinking, well after the outcome was clear.— Claudio Vernight - To be fair, the orchestra was by no means clueless, but rather played on in sacrificial love to comfort those who were fated to die before their next sunrise, and those in the lifeboats who were forced to witness it.
That orchestra performed one of the noblest acts of the century. May they all now be resting in eternal joy.
§
- Well, this team better be willing to pay out the nose because if they are not, get used to the next 5-10 years of bottom feeding. Trading prospects for veterans is a fine strategy if you are willing to replace those prospects through free agency. This is how the Yankees and Red Sox always manage to stay in contention. Now, if the Phillies never intended to replace prospects through free agency, they had no business trading all those prospects. You can't have it both ways if you want to be a consistently competitive team.— Hemingway
- The onus is now on the fans to simply stop going to games. Refuse to pay full price for this reduced price product. It's like paying full price for stale donuts, or day old bread. Loses hurt, but losing money to team ownership hurts more.— zdog
- You begin to wonder if Charlie will buy into being the guy to lead a youth movement or if he'll say after this season with a year left on his contract, "I didn't buy into this from all I've done for this organization".— sonnybuoy01
- Have you looked at the free agent list? There is nothing there. You have Hamilton & Bourn, and then the elevator skips the next 5 floors. 3B only has 3 floors. Ugly. RAJ has his work cut out for him....this ain't gonna be easy.— fuss77
- "elevator skips the next 5 floors" - very nice.
And with the 9/$132 guillotine looming, even talking about a big free agent signing is a bit silly.
§
Phillies fans everywhere were not satisfied with one WS championship in'08. We wanted more like the Red Sox in '04 and '07. But no one seems to realize that the Phillies played over their heads in '08 with great performances from Lidge and Hamels. C'mon our third baseman was Pedro Feliz. Since then we've seen great performances from Matsui and of course Mariano in '09, Cody Ross and Brian Wilson in '10, and a host of Cardinals stepped up in '11. (much like the Phillies) Tampa Bay and Texas were just as talented teams. A few plays here and there and they would have won a WS title. It takes a lot of intangibles for teams to win including chemistry. But bringing in 3 or 4 new players on this team next year is no guarantee that the Phillies can compete in 2013. But it's **tough** to watch the Phillies right now.
We all know who can play and can't play. Martinez is a AAA player. How do Kendrick and Scheirholtz both get doubled off on fly balls. I still want to see the Phillies compete. I still want to see Pierre everyday. I wanted to see Blanton pitch. Why trade him for nobody. He can still pitch. I want to see Ruiz almost every night. The only player that should be auditioning for next year is Dominic Brown. This is MAJOR league baseball not a fire sale! Charlie should be managing like his job depends on it. ...and Ruben do not trade Cliff Lee! I want to enjoy watching baseball for the next two months even though this year's run is over!— jojotr44- Martinez is a AAA player? Don't you think you're giving him a little too much credit? I don't think he's even that good.
I agree with the team trading Blanton, he is going to be a FA and they did get a prospect for him according to Amaro, but they apparently can't say anything because he hasn't been signed for a year. So it sounds like a recent Dodgers draft pick is coming here eventually.
I do agree with auditioning Brown for the rest of the year. I found it pretty frustrating when Manuel pinch hit for him with 2 outs in the 9th the other night with Ryan Howard. What was the point? Howard is going bad anyway so why not just see what the kid can do? Manuel is a terrible manager, he doesn't know how to groom these kids.— jimbo jones - Imagine a fortune 500 company hiring a new CEO after reaching a peak in 2008 and falling out of the top five hundred companies 5 years later. Well thats the Phils and RAJ. Some needs to be held accountable for this mess. RAJ is to clever for his own good.— tmkatz
- Imagine the VP of an automobile factory making a much ballyhooed announcement saying "we need to shutdown for a day to refresh everyone's attitude" - and then he restarts production the very same day.
I think someone, somewhere, would notice and do a news story on it. In Philly? Crickets.
§
- Imagine a fortune 500 company hiring a new CEO after reaching a peak in 2008 and falling out of the top five hundred companies 5 years later. Well thats the Phils and RAJ. Some needs to be held accountable for this mess. RAJ is to clever for his own good.— tmkatz
- Hopefully Charlie will retire by mutual decision. It's time for new leadership in the clubhouse all around. New coaching staff and it's time for a manager that can deal with youth and it's failings. I'm not knowledgeable enough regarding Sandberg's managing skills but he has real credentials as a complete player; unlike the inflated reputation of being a guru. I'd expect he would have high standards and be able to coach and instruct young players. If he is not the right guy for that job I think we should do whatever we need to do to find the right guy. Let the wind of change sweep through the organization. Hope it doesn't miss the GMs office and the broadcasting booth while it's passing through.— bentlip
- Free agents start at 32 years old and is mostly 34 years old+ and they always want a lot of money for what they did in the past. This team is banking on Howard and Utley playing like 2008. Anything less and it's impossible to assemble a good team through free agency in 2013.— UncleStosh
- To old, to much money tied up in worn out players, a supposed leader that first pitch swings consistently and doesn't hustle. The last two losses are directly related to errors by Rollins and Utley and no clutch hitting. What world is Howard in? If he stands any further from the plate he'll be in the on deck circle. Kendricks pitched a hell of a game as did Hamels the night before. But as I see it the biggest problem on this team is Rollins refusal to bat lower in the order and managements refusal to force him to. Ruben has made mistakes but they were always in an attempt to stay on top. It's not his fault so many over paid old men are just happy to cash their checks.— Rumrunner11
- The team appears to have stopped responding to the entire coaching staff. We have gotten rid of all the players for whom there was a market. At the end of the season, get rid of the manager and the coaches.......Nothing is forever. Thanks for the memories, Charlie.— willll
- you must look at this year as an exceptionally down year, period. With that being said, Soriano can fit nicely in left and would cost next to nothing depending on the prospect,...Ruben should ask Cubs to waive Soriano and work something out since we'd be #1 claimant,....now you're set in LF for 2 years and you can sign Bourne at 13 or 14 per for 5 years, and use the platoon in right,.....send Wiggs back to Oakland for McCarthy (who replaces Blanton) and you can either move Rollins to third or try and find a 3b,.....Paulino really needs to replace Schneider at backup Catcher,...Kendrick stays at Long Relief and sign a bullpen piece or use DeFratus,...Polanco just may have earned a 2 year deal by default,....ugh!!— SyddBarrett
- Soriano?!?!?! How would it make sense to go after a 36 year old guy who has contributed virtually nothing the last 4 years and is owed $36 million over the next two years? — jtj06
- lee shouldn't go anywhere. going into next season with kendrick, worley, and cloyd is just silly. kendrick is not a number three or even a reliable number 4. bourn or hamilton are both possibilities but dumping lee won't make up for the elephant in the room, howard. so far utley has shown power and the ability to run counts so it's not impossible he has a decent year. so far, amaro's moves have been decent. getting rid of lee, who is younger than halladay and has had fewer health issues, takes them dangerously close to rebuilding. just because hamilton and bourne are free agents doesn't mean they'll sign here.— dreinterests
- Idiot Phillies fans. Get rid of Howard? Really? HOMERUN HITTERS STRIKE OUT! (What are great season the Phila had without him) Howard and Utley are still in rehab mode. They need to get healthy along with Halladay. Now Ruiz on the DL. Sign Soriano? ...LOL You guys are clueless.
Do not trade Cliff Lee! The Hunter Pence trade from Houston for Singleton and Cosart has set this franchise back. Over paying for Papelbon and Hamels has set this franchise back. Remember when Savery was a can't miss? Is Jesse Biddle ready yet? Right now Ed Wade compared to Ruben Amaro is not that bad of a GM. At least he built a farm system. The Phillies are in a real pickle!— jojotr44 - Joe Savery was a can't miss prospect? What was that happening? He was a college pitcher that many people questioned the drafting of when the Phillies picked him. He then immediately struggled as a starter, transferred to 1B and DH, then moved back to relief pitching. He asked to switch to 1B/DH to try to get hi prospect status back.
I do agree that Amaro is a terrible GM, but so was Ed Wade. Remember when he tried to trade Howard for Kris Benson? He also tried to put together a package for Barry Zito to Oakland that included Utley, Hamels and Madson. We were just lucky that Oakland and Pittsburgh didn't pull the triggers on those deals.— jimbo jones - The 'golden years' people are referring to from 07-11 were the creation of a Hall Of Fame GM. Since the title of 08 that GM left and the team has gone into a nosedive...despite increasing salary every year...to where they outspend every team in the NL by a large margin.
The farm has been depleted. Look at the net net of the Pence trade. Rube did his usual buy high, giving up 3 of our best prospects. He sells Pence for a pittance. The 2 guys we got back are average at best; Rozin is still in A ball at age 23.
This was a great team with a great core but all teams need tweaking that brings in fresh blood and keeps the energy high and positive. That's what distinguishes a great GM from somebody like Rube.
We're still the highest salaried team in the NL, we'll be the same next year with the contracts he signed, and we'll be bumping along in last place until he's gone.— Cameiros - Well hopefully we won't have to wait 15 years until the next stretch of really good ball again like we had to sit through from mid 80's til 2000....but I won't get my hopes up. This team is done and they have NO good position players in the minors. None.— mbutley
- If the team wants to move forward, they must stop deluding themselves. Ryan must be moved and maybe Chase. The OF has to be almost totally new. 3rd is needed and Rollins might even have to go. Ruiz stays , of course if his heel-foot is solid. No more Brian S. Bring up Valle or the new guy from the Giants. Kyle stays in the Pen. Bring up a kid for the 5th starter. They will not be in the race for 2013. But, perhaps , if they go youth with 2 FA OF, they could be in 2014. And Charlie, a great guy, has to go for Ryne.— Koons
- With an IQ of 90 or better, you could see the decline in parallel with aging a few years ago. Committing a lot of time and money to Rollins was, I think, a grave error.
If I were the owner, I'd bite the bullet and go on a five year plan. You really can't afford ANY more 100 million 5-6 yr contracts before 2017 anyhow. The team is hamstrung with old, injury-prone guys. They have their rings. They are multi-millionaires who don't want it anymore. Start with Charlie, and maybe Rube. Maybe scouting and player development need new leaders.
Put 95% of your money into the farm system and player development. Bring up 4-5 affordable new stars from within. That can take 5-10 years, but not 25-30.— doc35 - No position players in the farm system? Who are you kidding? The Phillies have 2 of the top 10 rated catchers in MiLB in Valle and Joseph. Rupp is having a solid year at Clearwater also. Ceasar Hernandez was an all star at Reading at 2B and was recently promoted to Lehigh Valley. 3B Cody Asche and OF Leandro Castro and Jiwan James are MLB prospects also. The lower minors has many position players. You just drink the kool aid that is poured by those that don't know.
By the way, I haven't included Galvis or Brown who are both with the big club (although Galvis is both hurt and suspended).
Paul Owens once told me a good farm system produces 1 1/2 players for the MLB roster every year. The much belittled Phils minor league system has continued to do that for many, many years even with all the trades.— Jersey_Joe - Amaro will fire Cholly at the end of the year to deflect blame for the disaster of a team he has put together.— subgen
- 2013. Hamels, Halladay, Lee with a lot to prove should be enough and worth the roll of the dice. Upgrades in relief, paramount. Best outfield money can buy. What always worries me is that this team needs to play extremely well to overcome its manager. Best team in baseball the previous few years, and nothing to show for it -- using Vegas as the barometer. Hell, I think the Phils were odds on to win it all again this year. Don't believe the players trust current management crew, and it reflects in play. Too bad. Usually two of the best pitchers in baseball used to be enough. This team has three and still can't get to the finish line on top. Really hope the team makes the biggest change necessary.— JRum
- Halladay may have worn down and his recovery is in question. Back in the days when Roberts pitched he was expected to finish what he started. By the age of 29 his fastball lost velocity and he battled but his E.R.A. and home runs yielded soared for a couple of years.
Remember how testy Halladay was when Murphy questioned pitching speed in March? It's like a brain surgeon in the early stages of dementia. Robbie and others recharged their arms and approach and had good, not overpowering, late careers. Heck the Phillies could have used him in '64, when the young guns Bennett, Culp, and Mahaffey were all ill-armed by September. Shilling and his arm troubles set the Phils back in the 90's, then he excelled for two other teams, when the then
tightwad Phillies wouldn't pay the going rate for a horse that took teams to the big dance.— retzlaff - why can't our ballplayers holdup on pitches? they all do it, two strikes and no balls and then swing and miss,on a pitch out of the strike zone. They should know the pitch will be a ball in the dirt..
many times has Howard done this same mistake and others too. what happen to a walk is as good as a hit!!A new Hitting instructor would be a wonderful thing in Phily.
R.J.M.— Mack1945 - All I'll say right now is JOSH WILLINGHAM!!!!!!— bornphila
- I continue to be amazed that the team became "old" all at once. Duh. Amaro and the top brass couldn't see that the fielded team were all in the same age bracket? What an indictment of leadership not to have a plan to transition in younger players over time. Of course, having sold the farm to 'win now', I guess that strategy was an impossibility. We followed this line before yielding the same results. Stupidity.— DameB
- Torii Hunter can be a stop gap for next year if we are serious about contending. I don't see how we can contend with Howard at first base and a big hole at third base. We need a better OBP at leadoff. The average OBP for a MLB player is .320. Rollins can't cut it with his .314. Utley is no longer capable of carry the team on his back.
If you study the 2013 Free Agent List, you'll find there is no young talent of any quality available. The farm system can help fix the bullpen but we still need a Madson-like setup guy to contend. It just doesn't look good for our offense.— fafink - If you read between the lines on Amaro's dialogue I think I know whet he is trying to do. We all know are weaknesses, a power righthanded bat. We all know we need someone in the middle of the order. We all know we need someone who can field his position well. We all know Placido Domingo (hahaha) is done. And we all know the mets have cash problems. Amaro said he is trying to claim players of waivers. Does anyone want to guess who we are trying to get?— wildgreenman
- All roads lead to the tired,old fool manager. Caught lightening in a bottle in 2008 by nothing more than pure luck then proceeded to snooker the uneducated Phillie baseball fans into thinking he was a "hitting guru" and baseball maven. He's an idiot and best suited to managing some minor league team going nowhere than a major league team in LAST PLACE. Sure, Jimmy Poppins, the Nose, the Cripple, Mini-Mart et al love him. WHo wouldn't? No one is accountable for anything— Wilhelm Von Humboldt
I'd like to know exactly what drugs Amaro is taking and, more importantly, where I can get some!- Please stop with the Michael Bourn, Victorino is a better player.
Harlie must go. He messed up, victorino and maybery but putting all over the lineup, bastardo but making pitch more than he should (he is a left handed specialists no more ). Kyle Hendrik can be a starter if you let him and not monkey him around. Carlie is NOT a national league coach, he does not bunt, he does not give free passes, he makes bad double changes, he relies too much on the long ball of which we do not have like before and that is amaros fault. AND Uttley does look good hes fielding is a little off though.— wildgreenman - Jersey Joe get back to me in 5 years to let me know if any of the guys you mentioned do anything. Freddy is one who I think can make it..but don't tell me about 2 catchers when you only need one and you have Ruiz still in play.— mbutley
- not going to happen— wormerino
- Martinez. Endy Chavez and Steve Jeltz. Neither player should have ever been on a big league roster. Chavez is still playing! Why the Phillies love Martinez who is almost 30 and no longer a prospect, I have no idea.— hawk18
- Philly.com needs to start cross-checking IP addresses and ban this boob who continuously posts inane responses to himself under multiple user names. Having run message boards for a dozen years, I know that it would be very easy to do. Give the serious fans a break and clean up the mess.— WallStreetExaminer
- Who cares— fman727
- @mbutley - Maybe none of them will. You said there were no position players that were prospects, I just pointed out that you were wrong. As far as having 2 catchers, Chooch is 33 years old and both Valle and Joseph probably project to be in the MLB by spring of 2014 when he's 35. If per chance both prospects make it, you can always trade one.— Jersey_Joe
- I agree with bentlip about the broadcasting booth. I go nuts listening to mindless garble from McCarthy and wheels. Three or four batters come up and they don't call one pitch. They go on and on about what a player did 3 years ago while the side was retired without one pitch called. Somebody please tell the man he is the play by play guy not a color analyst. Two analyst in the booth make a terrible broadcast team. And then they have to actually show their faces on TV. lets just say they have faces for radio and not TV. It looks like Halloween every broadcast.— REL3
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