Lidge: One bad outing or a red flag?
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Lidge: One bad outing or a red flag?
Matt Gelb
More than once while in Florida, various Phillies personnel joked before games by asking me what I was writing. "Boring these days, huh?" one said.
For the Phillies, that means full steam ahead. Consistent winning without issues or controversy. Few times this season have we been able to say that.
So it is with that where I begin to try to find something for people to concern themselves with. (That's my duty, right?) We'll start here: Brad Lidge. It was but one outing Wednesday -- 23 pitches in a complicated season for the Phillies' closer.
But it was such a terrible performance that it begs a closer look.
"He didn't have very much," Charlie Manuel said following Wednesday's 10-5 win. "He'd probably be the first one to tell you that."
Another caveat: I was never able to speak to Lidge after Tuesday or Wednesday's games. Tight deadlines for the dead tree edition of The Inquirer prohibited me from spending a great deal of time in the clubhouse.
On Tuesday, Lidge was sharp despite not having appeared in a game for eight days. Originally, soreness in his right elbow stopped Lidge from pitching in two games, but he proclaimed himself ready Sept. 10. But the Phillies didn't need him until the 14th.
His slider was sharp. He threw it nine times and it was a strike six of them. He threw his fastball for strikes, too, and closed out a one-run game with a 16-pitch ninth inning.
Then came Wednesday. The Phillies had a big lead, but Manuel wanted to use his closer on back-to-back days.
"When we got there, I wanted to use him," Manuel said. "He had pitched the night before and we have an off day tomorrow. We wanted him to throw some. We wanted to try and keep him sharp."
Manuel won't say it, but his motivations could have gone beyond keeping Lidge sharp. The manager probably wanted to see what Lidge can actually give his team right now.
There are differences in being healthy. A pitcher can be healthy enough to throw a ball. And a pitcher can be healthy enough to actually pitch.
In the last week, Lidge has steadfastly maintained he is healthy. No problems. The soreness is gone and so long as he doesn't try to overthrow another pitch, it shouldn't return.
And by no means am I saying Lidge is lying. Again, we're talking about one bad outing here.
But there were quite a few red flags. Lidge couldn't throw strikes. There were a few close calls, as Manuel duly noted, but there were a lot that weren't close. Lidge threw 11 fastballs on Wednesday and just two of them were strikes.
From Aug. 1 to Sept. 6, Lidge was at his best (a 0.55 ERA) because he was throwing strikes. In 16 1/3 innings, he had walked just three (against 18 strikeouts). He walked three Wednesday night while facing just five batters.
This season, Lidge's stuff isn't as good as it used to be. We've known this. His margin for error is tighter and limiting his walks is paramount to the closer's success right now.
And not only was he not throwing strikes, but his velocity was way down -- even from Tuesday. Compare:
FASTBALL (Season AVG: 91.8 mph)
Tuesday
AVG: 91.07; MAX: 92.5
Wednesday
AVG: 90.28; MAX: 91.3
SLIDER (Season AVG: 83.7 mph)
Tuesday
AVG: 82.04; MAX: 83
Wednesday
AVG: 81.15; MAX: 82
Yes, Lidge's velocity is down as a whole this season and on both days he underperformed the season averages. But Wednesday's numbers were even worse.
Again, it was one outing. But this is no doubt a situation that bears a close eye.
After issuing his third walk of the inning Wednesday -- this time allowing a run to score -- Manuel decided not to let Lidge finish the inning even with a five-run lead.
"I figured he had thrown enough," Manuel said. "He'll be all right."
Comments (70)
The Phills Achilles heel is their bullpen. Madson has been great last 10 weeks Contreas has been good Durbin steady. Lidge has pitched mostly good but his decrease in velocity and spotty control is a concern. Brad played a big a part as anybody in world series win but now worrisome,— Don w- Even when he was going great in past years, he was not good in non-save situations. He should not have been put into that game, unless Charlie just wanted to knock some rust off, but it means nothing.— Steve2181
- Not at all, Lidge is not the only concern in the trash pen though. They seem to take turns on who can be the worst.— eaglesman1
- Agree with above comments, he never plays well under non save situations, and he really shouldn't have been in there. I understand he needed some work, but IMO there were other guys with that big of a lead I would have put in. He is of no concern for me...— phigglesfan75
- For the true Philly boo boo birdies, a win is a red flag--IDIOT— BEMiller
- Glad this is still out there. YOU'RE DOPES PHILLIE FANS!!! and this is a dumb article!!!
Brad Lidge pitched a perfect ninth for his 23rd save in 28 chances.
— Phillyexp 
Don't think Gelb is an diot or idiot. There WAS cause for concern and may still be. But last night was a hopeful sign that the other night was just an anomaly to the more recent effective Lidge. Still, don't trust he will come close to the constancy of '08. Would love to be proven wrong!- MATT GELB.... diot. Tonight Brad Lidge threw 8 pitches for 3 outs. His Velocity was 92 mph at times. BL was tired and had ONE bad outing last week.— wxdavid
So... now do we get the article about Lidge being back to 2008 form after mowing down the Gnats Saturday night? The key thing is not to overreact, people.— Doctor D- I do not have the nerves of steel necessary to watch Lidge in the 9th inning - no matter what the score.— franb213
- Wait a minute.....it wasn`t a close game, it wasn`t a save situation you don`t put a closer in a blow-out, well maybe not BUT, Everytime he steps on the field he should be trying 100% His attitude sucks. Hopefully he`s gone by next season.(along w/ Blanton,madson,Kendrick) Now let`s hope Kendrick can go at least 5/6 with-out too much damage tonight— huck tooey
- Lidge will need to close games on consecutive nights in the playoffs. Wednesday's performance makes one wonder if he physically can. And if not, then what?— cowpoke
- A closer loses his edge in a no close situation.
- They're just not as smart as you Richie - don't spend as much time as you do watching the players or charting their performance. Haven't seen as many games, situations and pitchers as you have either. Oh well - gotta make do, I guess. Hope they win 17 in September again like the last few years...they really are lost in September, y'know?— Ed3
- If the Phillies win the Series and Lidge makes a significant contribution in it (the only fair criteris with which to judge him because that winning the WS is what it's all about), then Amaro may be able to keep him as the closer and fill in the rest of the very questionable bullpen in the off-season. Otherwise, Lidge should be history and Amaro is going to have to earn his pay. Personally, I hope all the playoffs are not close games and Halladay, Oswalt and Hamels can go 7-8 innings. If it's only a 1 to 3 run lead, we're going to be in trouble.— 1republican
- I have to say this once again, if Lidge doesn't throw anything but his 2 sliders he will take a whipping. Like Hamels you can't get away with 2 pitches in the majors. This is another case where Dubee should have been on top of things and worked in the circle change and maybe a cutter. Throwing those sliders pitch after pitch is the reason for the elbow damage and he will get hit in the playoffs. Lets hope Contraras and Madson are up to the task.— Wally 24
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great comments, RichieAllen! I, too, loved the "dead tree" line and wholeheartedly agree that closers should not pitch in games with comfortable leads. I've been following Phillies since black and white tv's had tubes that you had to test and buy at stores (before Radio Shack, even) and it has always been an unwritten rule that you don't use closers in these kind of games. I know it doesn't make logical sense, but we're not talking about computers here, these are fallible humans with strengths and weaknesses. Managing is about more than a line-up card; a bullpen session with a radar gun, as suggested earlier, would have been a better option. Get Baez some work-if he get's hot right now, what a big help. Sports are about who is hot right now, not what they did earlier this season. - Someone mentioned Wild Thing. Can anyone out there tell me where I can see video of Wild Thing coming into a game with the stands rocking and the music going? The 1993 Philles' video has nothing. I wonder if it's a political thing where they are trying to forget Wild Thing ever happened. There just seems to be no fottage. I didn't find any on YouTube. If there is please post the link.— RichieAllen64
- "dead tree edition" - what a great expression. Please, tell me where you heard that first, unless you coined it. With today's state of the art and journalism, that is nearly a perfect way to refer to two different deadlines. Kudos, tip of the hat...— RichieAllen64
- I'm waiting for someone to find a closer with a 0.00 ERA. Until then, I'll gladly take one bad outing with a 6 run lead over a bad outing with a 1 run lead.— rounddollar
Comment removed.- Joe WS, your statement is ridiculous: "Tons of closers who are brought in with blow outs always do awful. Its a different mentality and the game doesn't matter as much." ... The game doesn't MATTER as much? Isn't the objective still to win? Dolt!— jman
- wxdavid: Lidge's performance has nothing to do with the size of the lead he inherits. If he can keep guys off base, he is fine. Once there are baserunners, Lidge invariably wets the bed and the Phillies either lose, or they must rely on extra-inning heroics to win. How many times can this team go to the well to bail out this 9th-inning handicap?— jman
- ONE BAD OUTING? Where have you been? What about the game last week where Lidge hit a batter, then intentionally walked the next guy (while throwing one of the "intentional balls" OVER THE PLATE, then balked in a run? Lidge is a disaster waiting to happen. If he can get 3-up and 3-down then he's ok, but as soon as he allows a baserunner, he gets squeamish and all hell breaks loose. Charlie might as well remove him after the first batter reaches base, and give the Phillies a better than 50-50 chance to come away with the win.— jman
- major red flag -> his facial expressions displayed SHEER HORROR, FEAR...."I DONT WANT TO BE OUT HERE!!!!"— zen
- 2ND BAD OUTING:? again are you dimwits DRUNK? His previosu outing was on Wednesday 9/15 vs the marlins where we won and increase the Lead to games on the Braves. FACT idge pitched a 1-2-3- 9th inning getting 3 outs in 16 pitches— wxdavid
- Idiots like Fumo and Mark1npt argue that ANY bad outing is unacceptable. *** LIDGE 2008 is gone **** stop judging everything on 48 saves in 48 chancea. **** LIDGE 2009 IS GONE *** What you are Left with isa decent closer-- NOT great-- decent who will have several blown saves save a year.— wxdavid
- another example of the nitwits managing this great team. I still say they win inspite of charlie!— sgamble077
- Shades of "wild thing"— franova
- What a non-story. Why not look at Lidge in games where he comes in non-save, large lead situations where Charlie foolishly wants to "see if Lidge can do X." Well, what Lidge can't do is pitch well with a big lead. Period. End of story. If there is any red flag to this story it is how stupid Charlie Manuel manages his pitchers. But I don't see stories on that.— grumpifrog
- Could you please write your headlines a bit more carefully? I thought this was an article about someone "outing" Brad Lidge as a gay man. Which might have been more interesting than the content of the story in question.— Jame
- Comment removed.
- Considering the sore elbow of last week, I think it's worthy of at least keeping an eye on. No need to attack people that are concerned, everyone is entitled to an opinion.— kmon
- Stop with the "closers don't know how to pitch in blowout situations" nonsense. Get 3 outs. There, it's that simple, study up.— kozykoz26
- Lidge is the ultimate head-case. You can't trust this guy in important games, he is a modern mitch williams now.— kozykoz26
- Lidge is stealing money. He will blow at least one save in the post-season. And every game matters in the post-season.— Keep_It_Real
- Matt, not only did velocity drop from 91 to 88-89 this week, but it's dropped steadily since the knee surgeries from 95-96 to 92-93 and previously this year 90-91....so to our esteemed blogger who disagrees on 1 mph of speed drop, it's been quite a bit of drop....however even 1 mph drop is a foot or two slower to the plate, the difference between centering the ball or missing it completely. You probably never pitched a game in your life. I have pitched thousands, literally. And when velocity drops like we have seen and control becomes an issue as it is with Brad, there is def an elbow problem. Yes, he had a nice run there for awhile, but we don't know whether he secretly had another cortisone shot or two, do we? We also don't know if he had one while sitting out those 8-10 days, though I suspect he did and was prescribed the rest. Regardless, he'll be of little use to us going forward. 2-run Madson had better be up to the task or there will be no parade this year.— Mark1npt
- Matt, next time you need to breakfast with Harry before introducing such controversy.— mick314
- Seriously, relax. I think Lidge was bored. Pitching in front of 12 people doesn't exactly do a lot to build the intensity that some closers (Lidge, I think, being one of them) thrive.— nmb327
- Did anyone actually watch the game? Lidge wasn't out of the zone on half the pitches the ump just called everything a ball. Ridiculously awful umpiring made that outing look a lot worse than it would have been. It happens. Luckily it didn't cost the Phils anything. Not saying we should all stop worrying about bad Brad, but this last outing raised no red flags for me. Matt was too busy writing his story on a tight deadline apparently to notice the real cause of Lidge's problems.— sla6yer
- I LOVE this. Yes, I have some degree of concern, but you needed to address the fact that after being on the shelf for so long, he was pitching 2 straight days. I believe that is what Charlie was trying to do. Charlie knew there was no game on Thursday. Air out his elbow a little. I was there for both games too. Yes, his velocity was obviously light on Wednesday, but I would have been concerned if it followed a poor outing on Tuesday. On Tuesday, Lidge was steller!— flyerssignguy
- overall contreras has been pretty good too, no Joe ?
- Hey Matt. You're wrong, you don't have to make up stories. The man threw terrific in a save like situation and then didn't have his best the next night with a big lead. Stop grasping for negatives and let's get with the program and be positive. Did you read the Column about the Atlanta Dogs down here in the Washington Post?? They scared s...less of the Phils. They've been like that all year. Go PHILS!!!!!— Phillyexp
Judging by some of these comments we are now truly in the end times. Kiss your wife and pet your puppy for the last time. We're all going down.- I am worried. Its all over.— hititwheretheyaint
- ONE BAD OUTING, ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!
Keep him off the mound so we can have half a chance more. No more give-a-ways by that joker, send him back to the Minors.— J-Joe - I think Cholly was testing Lidge's elbow to know what he can expect in the future. We will know alot more when (if) Lidge comes in for a save situation this weekend. Not concerned about the fasball placement issue.... Lidge has not been able to place his fastball for a strike since last year. But, if he cant hit his offspeed pitches for strikes he is toast because then he has to throw a 90-91 mph over the heart of the pate for a strike. That is when opposing players batter his pitches.— Philalawyer
- Lidge should have NEVER been out there PERIOD...neither should have Madson. DUMB moves by Dubee and Charlie. Charlie continues to making puzzling moves that backfire. Romero, Bastardo, and even Herdon are in the game at inopportune times...no excuses Charlie...get your head on straight so you can lead this team to another WS win in 2010!— Phront_Runner
- Lidge on Wednesday had a Kazaam!. See razzball.com: "Kazaam! Situations where closers are brought into a non-save situation and have no idea how to act. The results aren’t pretty." Now can we all back to crying about Cliff Lee?— smel4727
- Not sure what the pitch speed comparisons are supposed to mean at this point. Lidge has lost speed on his pitches over the past two seasons, that is no surprise. So a one mph difference from this season to Wednesday, to me, means nothing. Lidge had been pitching very well since August with a 91 mph fastball, so a drop to 90 mph shouldn't be a big deal. Plus, the difference in speed between his fastball and slider remained 9 mph. The more important factors are pitch location and sharpness of break on the slider. These were the problem on Wednesday.— MrPhillie
Gelb is totally justified in bringing up the bad Wednesday outing. I'm sure many people, like me, were wondering what the heck happened there. We still don't know, and neither the Phillies nor Lidge are going to be frank with us until/unless they have to, but I did find the average velocity numbers interesting. The combination of reduced velocity and no control seems to suggest that the problem was more than just a closer being called upon in a non-close situation.- Gelb is totally justified in bringing up the bad Wednesday outing. I'm sure many people, like me, were wondering what the heck happened there. We still don't know, and neither the Phillies nor Lidge are going to be frank with us until/unless they have to, but I did find the average velocity numbers interesting. The combination of reduced velocity and no control seems to suggest that the problem was more than just a closer being called upon in a non-close situation.
- The dearth of info emanating from the Phils after Lidge's latest fiasco is very telling. The fact that our own writers waited 48 hours before even addressing the issue is also very telling. No sense waving a red flag to our enemies and letting them know that we now have no closer. Bad strategy going into the last two weeks of the season. The facts are: Contrary to what most of you think of Lidge being mentally soft, quite the opposite is true. He is a warrior. Unfortunately his elbow is shot. How would you feel if you were in the Marines and told to charge a hill and overtake the enemy but given no ammo with which to accomplish the task? Well, unfirtunately, that's Brad. Charged with nailing down the win, but having no ammo left in his arm. For a Major League pitcher to throw only 8 strikes on 23 pitches, something is terribly wrong. Back to back days for an arthritic elbow are very difficult. If we could give Brad a week between appearances he could probably get thru the year and maybe even fulfill the remaining year on his contract, but that ain't gonna happen. Madson had better be up to the task, or our triumvirate of Aces had better pitch complete games every time out or there will be no parade this year. Bank on that.......— Mark1npt
- Matt:
Don't let the knuckleheads get you down. Your angle was a good one and your analysis was spot-on. Anyone who thinks you over-reacted or manufactured controversy should go out RIGHT NOW and buy Yankees/Braves gear because they are NOT SMART ENOUGH to be Phillies fans!!!— PAStringer 
Most "Closers" do not pitch well in non-closing situations. This has been the trend for the past 20 years and nothing Charlie or anyone else says or does is going to change that. When your job is to come in close games your adreneline is pumping pretty good and you get used to that. Coming into a blowout makes it hard to replicate your "normal" mental and phyisical state. Simple as that. Time to move on, nothing to see here. If you want to look at an area of weakness for the Phillies, let's look at middle relief. It's easy to talk about our awesome top three starters but, in the playoffs 7, 8, 9-inning starts are rare. You're going up against top starters on the other team and when you have a chance to score in the 6th or 7th inning of a close (or scroreless) game you'll use a pinch hitter. The "bridge to Lidge" is much more concerning to me. Lidge has been doing very well lately and I think Charlie has now messed with his head somewhat by not putting him in the proper situation. Now doubt is creeping back into his mind and that's why he was so bad in 2009.- Who cares??? It wasn't a close situation. Tons of closers who are brought in with blow outs always do awful. Its a different mentality and the game doesn't matter as much. Plus Lidge has a .75 era since August 1st. He is not the 2008 Lidge, but he is a ton better then last year. I'm more worried about the other bums not named Madson and Durbin.— Joe WS
- I disagree with the above comments. Yes, Lidge has been much better over the course of the past two months. But his history makes even one bad outing relevant, and discussion-worthy. He could fall off at any moment with his injury history.— willy33
- IMO - neither Lidge nor Madson should have been in that game. it was a perfect opportunity to use Zagurski, Worley, Baez. If you have a chance to rest your key pitchers you do it. Lidge would be that much stronger next outing if he had rested Wednesday, Thursday. and I agree that he thrives on adrenaline and with a 6 run lead there is no adrenaline flowing.— hkhund07
- I saw some of his fastballs toward the end of his stint clocked at 89 mph. Given the fact that he's got a track record of injury. Plus, he's just complained of elbow soreness... then you combine in the lack of velocity... the big question is how does he feel the day after throwing and how is his velocity his next few outings... I'm sure both he and the phils are more than a little concerned.— terryharmon
- he is a closer you can't bring closers into blowouts and expect results— amann08
- The Inquirer just keeps sinking lower and trying to stir up controversy. For about nine months it was its policy to refer to Cliff Lee in every edition, lamenting how Lee was now in Seattle, how the Phils were going to miss him, etc... Now Lidge has ONE, repeat one, bad out outing and we get an article talking about if Phillies fans should be worried. I hear Chase Utley has a headache today. Maybe the Inquirer should do a full story about that...— BrianNJ
Agreed, he shouldn't have been in the game, there was no "mental" sharpness there... sometimes you just need to change your plans -- in this case, not use him in a blowout.— Ump Al
The 2nd of two consecutive days has been a consistent problem for Brad. The coaching staff should be able to see that and should not put him in those situations (especially when there was absolutely NO need to be in that 2nd game). Dubee, what are you doing anyway?- Wow Matt, it's a good thing one terrible article doesn't carry as much weight.— smfree31
- I'm glad someone finally wrote about this. I've been wondering about Lidge for the last 2 days. Really curious what happens next time the Phillies go to the 9th with a 1-run lead. Just hope it happens at least once this weekend - before the Braves series. No - I don't think Lidge is sully healthy. I'm sorry, but a good closer doesn't come in and tink that bad - regardless of the score. The 2008 vontage Lidge was never *that* bad - regardless of the score or situation...— CAFlyers
- It will definitely be one WILD ride, but we will be having another parade this Fall, and Lidge will be an integral - and potentially combustible - part of the equation! GO PHILS!!— 5NOT4
- It's a bright red flag. Lidge seems to have no control of his pitches. Phils can't afford to turn over a close game to him for the rest of the season.— pogiepop
- Wow, is it your job to try to make something out of nothing for us to be concerned about? It was 1 bad outing out of 17. If it was his first one back from his tight elbow I'd be concerned, but he was fine in that outing. Fact of the matter is you shouldn't put your closer into a game with a 6 run lead. Period.— richards4captain18
- Lidge is horrible every time he's put out there in a non-save situation. That should be the red flag— djsaitta
- Next time just let hime throw 20 pitches at full speed in the bullpen. He can never get his head into games that are blowouts. It's hard to watch. You'd think Charlie and Dubee would have learned this by now.
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