Posted: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 6:44 PM | 173 comments |
 
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My original plan was to file another detailed blog post later tonight after I'd had a day to mull over the Halladay and Cliff Lee deals. But I ended up listening to a healthy dose of sports talk radio while running errands today - side note, they really should put cupholders on shopping carts - and kept hearing several illogical statements (insert joke about sports talk radio here) that need to be corrected.

Illogical Statement I: The Phillies should have just swung a trade for Halladay last deadline and had Cliff Lee and Halladay for two postseason runs.

Answer: While it is true that the package of prospects the Phillies ended up shipping to Toronto isn't a heck of a lot less than what the Blue Jays were reportedly offering last summer, the big issue here is money. Roy Halladay earned $14.25 million last season. The Phillies would have been on the hook for roughly $6.5 million of that. Add in the roughly $3.5 million they took on in salary for Cliff Lee, and you are talking $10 million extra dollars dumped into the budget midway through the fiscal sports year. That would be difficult for any business to absorb. Plus, the Phillies would have owed Halladay all of his $15.75 million salary for this season. Keep in mind the Blue Jays are kicking in $6 million toward Halladay's salary (at least that is what has been reported - I do not have that independently confirmed). And keep in mind that the Blue Jays were reportedly asking for Drabek AND Brown, along with Anthony Gose, with J.A. Happ and Jason Knapp (who was a key to the Lee trade) being kicked around. So the assertion that the Phillies are parting with the same package of prospects is a misnomer too. But even if it were the same package of prospects, the Phillies would have been taking on $12.5 million in salary in 2009 and 2010, in addition to Lee's salary.

You can argue that the Phils still could have swung the deal with the prospects they had. And given Lee's performance in the playoffs, you can argue that they very likely would have won a second straight World Series with Halladay and Lee perhaps starting Games 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7. But you can't argue the finances of it all.

Illogical Statement 2: Hamels is no longer a bona fide No. 2 starter in the majors and never will be because he is a two-pitch pitcher.

Answer: Look, nobody will argue that Hamels had a down year. And nobody will argue that he would be better suited for success -- particularly against lefties -- with a reliable third pitch. But even in 2008, when Hamels was a playoff stud, he threw his curveball on just 13.7 percent of his pitches (according to FanGraphs.com). That dropped to 10.5 percent last season. But he threw the curve just 10.6 percent of the time in 2007, when he was far more successful than last season. Hamels biggest problem wasn't with his curve ball. It was with his command of his fastball and change-up. Hamels can succeed with just two pitches, but to do so he needs to be in complete control of them. Last year, he wasn't. You can argue that he will never be in control of his fastball and change-up again. And you can argue that he needs to better develop a third pitch. But I don't think you can argue that he is done for his career because he doesn't have a third pitch. Keep in mind, this guy was outstanding in 2008, and was pretty darn good in 2007. He is 25 years old, for crying out loud. Cliff Lee's first full big league season was at the age of 25.

Illogical Statement 3: The Phillies were forced to choose between one year of Cliff Lee and four years of Roy Halladay.

Answer: Not true. They did not trade for four years of Roy Halladay. They traded for one year of Roy Halladay, plus exclusive negotiating rights with him. Keep in mind the Phillies will be paying $20 million a year to Halladay for at least three seasons, and maybe four and five. That's a lot of money. The Phillies could have kept Cliff Lee and their prospects this year and then invested the money they would be paying Halladay into a guy like Javier Vazquez, and likely had plenty of cash left over to invest in other areas of the team. But they wanted Halladay. You can easily argue that it was a wise investment, since Halladay likely would have commanded more on the open market. And if you look at our previous post, you'll see that plenty of elite pitchers have thrived between the ages of 33-36. But the Phillies did not trade for an elite pitcher who was under contract for the next four seasons. They traded for one year of him, and in the process negotiated an extension for the next three.

There. I feel better now.

Posted by David Murphy @ 6:44 PM  Permalink | 173 comments
173
Comments   
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:09 PM, 12/15/2009
    Any statement that the Phillies "can't afford" Halladay and Lee - for one year - is an insult to our intelligence. It doesn't take a mathematician or CPA to multiple 3 million + fans x $40-50 ticket = $120M-$150M in ticket revenue alone...not counting the postseason, concessions, merchandise, MLB revenue, TV & radio revenue, etc. Extending both? Sure, that would be almost impossible. Paying an extra $9M for one year? Easily.
    gbentzel
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:26 PM, 12/15/2009
    I realize this isn't likely, but it is entirely possible that the "delay" in the deal being "done" until tomorrow is precisely that the Phillies are trying to get both Lee and Halladay. As of last night, Lee's agent said Lee had no idea what was up. Can you seriously believe that the Mariners would trade for Lee and not at least try to get an extension--at least talk about one with Lee? Supposedly the deal is done, and now we wait another day. Why? For any number of reasons, but possibly to negotiate with Lee. After all, as any number of people have observed, the Phils don't really need Seattle to do this deal. So if you can extend the deal with Lee, maybe you dump Seattle and just do a straight deal with Toronto. What's in it for Lee? The Phils have just created a ton of leverage on him: Lee, my friend, you can do a contract extension with us and stay with this massive offense for a few years and have one of the great starting rotations of all time, or you can spend the next year in baseball purgatory. (No offense intended, Seattle.) If you're Lee, do you suck up an entire year at the top of your game for a shot at free agency, or do you do a "short" extension with the Phils to have a massive shot at the World Series again? On top of that, there is no way the Phils can offer Lee more than Halladay, so by locking up Doc, they know what they'd be offering Lee--a match of the Halladay numbers. I'm not saying this will happen. I'm just saying I don't know why people don't think it just might.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:35 PM, 12/15/2009
    How can the Phillies be willing to pay Moyer $8 million and be unwilling to pay Lee $9 million. Seems time for Jamie to do the honorable thing. Quickly.
    defg0003
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:37 PM, 12/15/2009
    I see a lot of people saying that we didn't get enough return on Lee, that we gave up so much to get him and then to give him up and more prospects to get Halladay. Well we gave middling prospects to get Lee, but Lee got us to the World Series. Without Lee, would we have made it back to the WS? I say just getting back to the World Series was return enough for the middling prospects the Phils gave up. The phils are giving up prospects for Halladay for sure, but they're also getting a few. Who's to say they won't pan out? I'm pretty sure Halladay will win some games for the phitins.
    46 and 2
  • Comment removed.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:48 PM, 12/15/2009
    The bottom line is Amaro traded 7 of his top 10 prospects plus a CY pitcher (Lee) for a CY pitcher (Halladay) who may be marginally better. Is that a great deal as the Philly press who love to fawn all over Amaro would like us to believe? Others, whom the press wouldn't fawn over, would get run out of town for a deal like this!
    JBinPA
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:51 PM, 12/15/2009
    Murph, your missing the biggest misconception of all: The the Phillies couldn't keep Lee and Halladay this year. You've got to be kidding me Amaro! What he's about to do w/ Lee is nothing more then a salary dump. I don't believe that they couldn't have shipped Blanton somewhere for a couple prospects if they truly could not afford them both. Again, there is NOOOO way they can not afford them both for this year. They would have the best starting pitching in the Majors, easily! Can ANYONE explain why the really have to dump Lee?? I'm fuming about this and would love some kind of explanation.
    scooterg99
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:52 PM, 12/15/2009
    it was a brillant trade by amaro on every level,docs work ethic cant be measured in dollar bills and his affect on the rest of the staff will be very visable,he is the best pitcher in the american league well worth three prospects whose value to the phillies also would never be higher than now.Lee did a nice job and the players the phillies got in return for him restock the system,finacally it still allows the phils to be aggressive in finding help for the back end of the bullpen
    soliteryman
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:53 PM, 12/15/2009
    Agree with gbentzel - you can't tell me that Halladay-Lee isn't worth $9 million and plenty in revenue: ticket sales (at home & away -notice all the red in the stands during the road trips last year?), merchandise, concessions, broadcast, etc. Not to mention another deep run in the post-season (hopefully for the whole enchilada!)Somebody needs to pay a visit to Middleton before Cliff is gone. It's time to do it 100% right.
    Ed3
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:54 PM, 12/15/2009
    soliteryman, worst comment I've ever read. The prospects they got back are middle of the pack at best. Everyone know's Halladay has a great work ethic, blah blah blah, but why dump Lee???
    scooterg99
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:56 PM, 12/15/2009
    Not true, we turned 7 of our top 10 prospects into 3 of Seattles top 5 prospects, Ben Franciso, and Roy Halladay.
    Rod72
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:58 PM, 12/15/2009
    i blame jamie moyer for not retiring.
    alyosha
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:59 PM, 12/15/2009
    46 and 2 hit the nail on the head. 3 of the 4 prospects given up for lee were losing value the higher up the minors they went, and those 3 also had quality players blocking them at the big league level as well (knapp being the exception). they had to be traded as soon as possible in order to cash in on whatever value they had left. considering the half season of lee gor the phils to the WS i'd call that a great move- no way phillies get there without lee. so those prospects don't even fit into the halladay equation. It's really just the 3 guys they are giving up vs. what halladay can do- a good gamble. and really, even though taylor is way more talented than anyone in the lee trade, he's also bloceked by 2 pretty good players and is 24 i believe. good time to trade him too when his minor league value is at its highest, and get a top-5 pitcher in baseball.
    solomon grundy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:59 PM, 12/15/2009
    the phillies now have halladay for 4 years at 17.25 million a year if the phillies offered Lee an extension at "fair market value"...John Lackey would be the barometer, not CC, Johan, or 'Doc'...Lackey just signed for 5 years at 16.5 per...If we offered Lee a similar extension, for 4 years at 17 mil per, we would control Lee for 5 years total at 15.4 mil per season...I would love this deal, let cole play out the next 2 years at 6.5 and 9.5 respectively, or trade cole after next season when he is 26 and going into his final season at a great market price of 9.5 mil, making him a great trade option...I think the phillies failed in their due diligence with Lee
    tkohl
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:59 PM, 12/15/2009
    i like your thinking curveball. i too hope they can keep lee AND get halladay. that gives us the best chance to beat the yankees or sox and win another championship. seems to me they can find a way to get this done.
    BroadStreet


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About David Murphy
David Murphy joined the Daily News as its Phillies beat writer in February of 2008. Born in Upper Merion and raised in the Poconos, he attended college at La Salle University before taking jobs with the Myrtle Beach (S.C.) Sun-News and the St. Petersburg ( Fla. ) Times. E-mail Dave at dmurphy@phillynews.com.

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