Posted: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 7:25 AM | 44 comments |
 

Thin Pen = Tough Loss
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Carlos Delgado (left) sticks out his tongue as he crosses home plate after homering to tie the game. Rudy Seanez (right) hangs his head after giving up the home run to Delgado.

Charlie Manuel is concerned about his bullpen.

That's why J.C. Romero, Chad Durbin, Ryan Madson and Clay Condrey were unavailable to pitch last night in a 6-3 loss to the Mets at Citizens Bank Park, which returned the Phillies to second place in the NL East. Romero had thrown 20 or more pitches in each of the previous three games. Durbin, who already has made a career-high 56 appearances, had pitched five times in the previous seven days. Madson, whose shoulder is an issue, had thrown two innings Tuesday. And Condrey had thrown three innings Tuesday.

That is why Rudy Seanez started the eighth inning.

Seanez surrendered a game-tying home run to Carlos Delgado after he easily retired the first two hitters he faced and after the Phillies visited Seanez on the mound to talk strategy.

The talk didn't work.

Seanez allowed an infield single and hell broke loose from there with Brad Lidge entering in the middle of an inning for just the second time this season.

Should Lidge have been used in that situation?

Couldn't Manuel have asked Romero to retire one batter in the eighth? Delgado is 4 for 7 (.571) with three homers in his career against Seanez. Delgado is 3 for 19 (.158) with just a double against Romero. 

Good questions, but Manuel clearly felt he needed to rest his pen or risk their effectiveness later. I recall a similar situation in St. Louis late last year when Brett Myers, Tom Gordon and Romero were unvailable. The Phillies nearly blew an 11-0 lead after the sixth inning, but held on to beat the Cardinals, 13-11. Manuel felt at the time, even with just a few games to play in the season, that he absolutely had to rest his key relievers.

Loss or no loss.

*

While it's fair to examine the bullpen's role in last night's loss, the offense had just three hits after the second inning. Give Seanez a cushion, maybe he stays in, gets out of the inning and Lidge is back starting the ninth, where he is more comfortable.

*

Kyle Kendrick wasn't bothered by his late-night warm up session Tuesday, but he didn't pitch as deep into the game as he had hoped, either.

*

Tough, tough series this weekend in Chicago. The Cubs are no joke and are nearly unbeatable at home.

*

In the Phillies Notebook: Drew Carpenter made his big-league debut in the ninth inning last night. The Phillies were hoping not to see him.
Posted by Todd Zolecki @ 7:25 AM  Permalink | 44 comments
44
Comments   
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:03 AM, 08/28/2008
    Someone should have reminded Charlie that this is a battle for first place and post season because the wild card is out and the team they play the next four rarely loses at home. Give Romero today off not last night. Not for one out. One night Charlie is brilliant and the next night he clutches defeat from the jaws of victory.
    — Dull
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:04 AM, 08/28/2008
    Here is my view - and I am just a fan, I certainly do not pretend to be as savvy a baseball mind as those that guide the Phillies, but I do wonder...Why, if Lidge was already up and throwing in the pen when Seanez had 2 outs, did Charlie Manuel not just bring Lidge in THEN - to face Delgado - a batter he has had much success over. In essence, all Lidge would have had to do was deal with Delgado, have the Phils then do their thing at bat and just get back on the hill for what should be a 1,2,3 9th inning. I know they only "like" to use "the Closer" for 1 inning - but then WHY was he up in the pen in the 8th - and only AFTER the damage was done - did Charlie Manuel go to him. Too little too late, I think. It is great to have split with the METS - but last night's game showed the METS that the Phils are just as capable of a monumental collapse as they are. This should have been a 2-0 series for the Phils...
    — mebphila
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:22 AM, 08/28/2008
    phils are 5-10 against the mets this year. Charlie and the bullpen have lost 5 of the 10 games - maybe six. He's terrible. That decision was terrible and he should be canned. Should have been canned a while ago - at the very least he should not be making game decisions. The Mets announcers were destroying him before seanez pitched to delgado and obliterated him afterwards (although they were thankful) for putting in lidge at that point. they went so far as to state that the night before delgado struck out on 4 pitches (all sliders) from lidge and they thought the whole decision was disastrous. they're right - I can't believe I paid almost $8k to watch these guys all season.
    — diehardphan
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:34 AM, 08/28/2008
    Lets not jump off the Walt Whitman. It was a good homestand. Its tough to come off a high on Tuesday and lose a game like last night, however if someone told me a week ago that the Phillies would sweep LA and split with the Mets, I would have said that was more than successful - so it is. Its likely to be a battle for the next couple weeks - strap in and enjoy..
    — Gary Varsho
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:55 AM, 08/28/2008
    Tuesday night's comeback win over the Mets had a 10.7 rating and a 17.9 share on Channel 57, making it the most viewed Phillies local telecast of the season. Except for the final weekend last season, when the Phils clinched the division, it was the highest-rated Phillies game since 1995. However, there are chunks of central Pennsylvania (Harrisburg and Gettysburg) where the games aren't on TV. Even higher ratings would come if more people could see the games!
    — steve n
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:07 AM, 08/28/2008
    On more than one occasion, Joe Torre (and now Joe Girardi) called on Mariano Rivera to get four-out saves. In some instances, even asking for two-inning saves (where is Goose Gossage or Rollie Fingers when you need them?). Especially in crucial games. Was this not a crucial game? I guarantee if they had lost the first game of the series, he would have been in there. But if Lidge is warming up, and you have some concern about Seanez facing Delgado, bring in Lidge in that spot - with two outs and no one on. You brought him in anyway later in the inning after they had tied it, so why not bring him with a lead? It makes no sense to me. You mean to tell me no beat writer pressed him on that issue? Larry Anderson touched on it in the radio broadcast. Futhermore, after Seanez retired the first two batters of the inning - striking out David Wright on a mere three pitches - why is there a need for Dubee to visit the mound? When Carlton pitched, he detested visits from the pitching coach/manager because he said it hurt his concentration and rhythm. It's mind boggling to me that after retiring the first two batters of the inning (with relative ease) and with no one on base, the pitching coach has to make a visit! For what? Two pitches later, we have a tie game. Yet another point Anderson made on the radio. Seanez may not be Lidge, but he's not a rookie either. I think he's pitched in big spots before. I also think he, more than anyone else, knows the success Delgado has had against him in his career. The Phillies had a chance to build upon what they did the night before and, dare I say, get inside the Mets' heads even more. Instead, they breathed life back into a team that had to be wondering if this was 2007 all over over again. They could have been 1 1/2 up with a month to play. When they don't make the post-season, I hope someone will remind Uncle Charlie of this game. There will plenty of time to rest the bullpen when they fall just short of the playoffs. Disgraceful!
    — PhightinPhil
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:09 AM, 08/28/2008
    Larry Andersen was right during last night's radio broadcast... there was no reason for Rich Dubee to come out to talk to Seanez in that situation unless you're bringing in Lidge to pitch to Delgado and trying to stall. Seanez had worked into a nice rhythm against Castillo and Wright, and a guy with his level of experience shouldn't need any pointers on how to attack someone that he knew he'd be facing. What did Dubee say--don't give him anything over the plate? No kidding. And Kruk also made a great point on Baseball Tonight: Coste tried to set up well inside but Seanez stepped off. Delgado, with his open stance, could feel where Coste was so he knew that Seanez wanted to stay away. So even though the HR pitch was in a good spot, Delgado knew to look outside so he could get a hold of it.
    — danielswolf
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:14 AM, 08/28/2008
    Bashing Seanez or Charlie is a stretch. Rudy made a good pitch, down and away, give Delgado some credit for crushing a golf shot, opposite field homer. It happens, another 1/4 of a second on the swing it's a foul ball. Zo's right, 3 hits afer the second inning (again) did us in, we have to be more consistant on offense.
    — jimmymack
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:16 AM, 08/28/2008
    Plus, let's not forget that Delgado is clearly on some kind of juice. I'm not kidding.
    — kev
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:17 AM, 08/28/2008
    This one was frustrating... not a back-breaking loss by any stretch, but it was a chance to really put the Mets on the ropes. And now, one day after lauding Charlie Manuel for the best game he has managed since he has been here, I feel the need to criticize him for a Charlie Manuel special. He probably should have used Romero to pitch to Delgado. Romero owns Delgado. It is one hitter. I get that he didn't WANT to use Romero, but I also get that you CAN'T make your entire bullpen off limits on the same night. He should have planned on resting 2 guys last night, and 2 tonight. But, even if you are deadset on giving J.C. the night off, then why pitch to Delgado? I know it goes against all conventional baseball wisdom to put the tying run on base, but honestly, is there anyone else in that lineup after Delgado that scares you right now? Put him on, go after Beltran, and hand the game to Lidge in the 9th with Church, a rookie, and Schneider coming up. Or, if you were willing to go to Lidge in the 8th and ask him for 4 outs, why not have Lidge pitch to Delgado? I know Lidge ended up having a tough night, but it still seems we had better options than asking Seanez to get Delgado out. Another thought... Lidge hasn't had much work lately, and has looked better after getting a ton of rest on the West Coast trip... would it really have been horrible to ask him for a 6-out save? Now may be the time to find out what these guys can do come playoff time...
    — RollinsWasRight
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:27 AM, 08/28/2008
    On to the Cubs series... It would be unrealistic to hope for anything more than a split (the Cubs just kill people in Wrigley), but the Phils also cannot afford less than a split. That being said, I am actually quite glad Charlie did not juggle to rotation to get Hamels against Santana last night. Now we have our 3 best pitchers going over the course of these 4 games. Plus, I really like the match-ups. I know Dempster has been near unbeatable at home, but considering who you are facing this weekend, you have to find a way to win that game, so I am glad Hamels is pitching it. Blanton against Harden works great for me, because I am already foregoing any game Rich Harden starts against us, so why waste one of our better pitchers? I love our chances Saturday with Myers going against Ted Lilly. If we are going to split, they probably need to win Hamels's start, and Myers. Do that, and you have an outside chance at doing the unthinkable, beating the Cubs 3 out of 4 in Wrigley, because even though Moyer vs. Zambrano favors the Cubs, the Phillies have hit Zambrano in the past. Let's go Phils! Last night was a tough one, but we've still won 9 out of 12, and are on a roll. Before this homestand, if you told me we'd go 7 and 2, I would've taken it in a heartbeat. Keep it going!
    — RollinsWasRight
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:45 AM, 08/28/2008
    You know, the more I think about this, the more I am thinking I am wrong, and Charlie was right. I really wanted to win that game; I mean I REALLY wanted to win that game. I wanted shut Mets fans up. I wanted to beat Santana. I wanted the Phils to sew the seed of doubt that Santana would not be the difference for the Mets between blowing that lead last year, and winning the division this year. But the rational part of me keeps thinking that after winning the first game against the Mets, these four games in Chicago became far, far, FAR more important than that one game against the Mets, and it will be nice to have as many reliable arms available as possible in the pen this weekend. So, maybe Charlie really does know better than I do, huh? Who'da thunk it? :)
    — RollinsWasRight
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:43 AM, 08/28/2008
    jimmymack: the pitch to Delgado was awful. he's a low ball hitter!! He should have been pitched high and inside and not low and away. As for the argument about leaving Seanez in or bringing in Romero, dont' forget that in order to pitch to one batter the pitcher has to throw at least 40 pitched in the Pen to warm up. If you're giving him a night off, then 40+ pitches doesn't qualify as rest. Also, Lidge needs to be able to come in in teh middle of innings. He is the Ace of the Pen. All in all, though, a great homestand for the Phils
    — jeff gross
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:47 AM, 08/28/2008
    I agree with bringing either JC Romero or Lidge to face Delgado. We had a chance to bury the Mets, like someone else said in this space, and instead gave them their lives back. You have to win the games in your division. The Mets are going to face a tough Marlins team at Florida starting tomorrow. They are going to beat on each other, but NY is going to be a little happier with the game they stole back from us. Imagine if they had lost. In the other hand, Seanez did his job getting the first two batters out. After that, it was time to take him out and bring Romero. It was a no-brainer. Then rest the bullpen today, where you have Hamels on the mound, who gives you 7 innings most of the time. By the way, the pitch to Delgado was a nice pitch. Not many lefties would have hit that pitch fair. He is on FIRE.
    — EL Zorro
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:59 AM, 08/28/2008
    El Zorro, yes Hammels is on the mound today, but it is Chicago, home of teh wind striaght out of teh park, with a pitcher whose weakness is giving up the long ball. It is quite possible that the pen will get a work out today, depending on the wind. If when Dubee went out he was told by Seanez that we was fine and could get the guy, why not trust him--he is a big league pitcher after all. Being monday morning quarterbacks is too easy.
    — jeff gross


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