Some Gross leftovers
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Some Gross leftovers
Bob Brookover, Inquirer Baseball Columnist
Sometimes you write a story for the newspaper and you run out of room to get everything in. Unlimited space is the beauty of the internet age.
I wrote a story about former Phillies hitting coach Greg Gross for Sunday and had some leftover quotes. Here are the leftovers. I hope you enjoy them as much as I love leftover Thanksgiving turkey.
I asked Gross about several of the Phillies’ hitters, including the exiled Hunter Pence and Shane Victorino, and here’s what he had to say.
On Pence: “I think Hunter put a lot of pressure on himself. With other guys out, he felt like he had to carry the team. People who watched, I think they saw a different player compared to when he came over the second half of the previous season.”
On Victorino: “Shane, I think the whole free agency thing … I don’t think he responded well to that situation. In the end, he ends up doing pretty well for himself (with Boston). If he had known during the year that was going to end up what it was going to be, he would have been more relaxed.”
On Domonic Brown: “I don’t think Domonic ever got comfortable. He never has been at any level for a whole season and the game at the top level is difficult. That learning curve in a situation where you’re expected to win is going to be really short. The patience is not going to be that long. A second-division club is totally different for a young player. They learn that way. In a situation like the Phillies have been in since 2006, the leash is going to be real short.”
On Chase Utley: “He’s played catch up for two straight seasons. You don’t just jump in and play the game at this speed. It just doesn’t happen. It’s one thing to go through spring training and then get hurt, but when you go from October all the way through June without playing, that’s asking a lot. He’s a guy I really pull for to get through spring training. He’s one of the best workers I’ve ever been around. They had two of the best there: one was him and the other was Juan Pierre.”
On Ryan Howard: “They got away from the lineup they had when Jayson Werth left. They banged the ball and everybody did. I don’t know if he’d admit it, but with things going the way they’re going, he feels like he has to hit three-run home runs all the time to help pick up the team. I think that expands the strike zone. He chases more pitches than he did in the past. I think it’s human nature. No matter how good you are, you need help.
“Plus, he’s been in the league a lot longer. The pitching over the years, they pitch him a little different than they did in years before. Pitching in our division is also a lot better over the last few years. When you see Washington and Atlanta 18 times a year, you’re seeing good pitching. It’s like when we’d go into a place, you’d see good hitters go bad depending on who they were facing those three games. Halladay, Hamels and Lee make a lineup look sick.”
Comments (61)
@World: I'll agree with the name calling (unless we are talking Andrew Bynum). Greg and Milt were fine players in their day; without GG and Del in 80, we ain't celebrating a championship. And Milt was a key player in our 1993 run. I can still see him climbing the wall, making that unbelieveable catch over the left outfield wall.
This town has a fair number of knuckleheads behind the keyboard but also some of the most knowledgeable, too. My main point, not meant as an excuse is this: be thankful for the support here and at the park and at the overpriced concessions and sporting goods dealers. Folks buying the tickets and the jerseys, caps, jackets and the like are the ones putting money into YOUR wallet. Without a loyal fanbase, you and the folks like you would be like the rest of us, earning minimum wage, earning a blue collar salary that gets eaten up by taxes and insurances before you have a chance to step in your door. Be thankful for the crowds that fill CBP and Bright House; the dark days of Vet Stadium are only one more MLB Players Association strike away from becoming your reality.
One thing I like about the Philadelphia fan is the love for their team tempered with a high expectation of success. And a willingness to call a fraud when it is due and just. Dopey fans are found in every city and you know that. Since 1883, some Philly fan was probably calling Harry Wright a moron and I suspect 100 years from now it will not have changed a bit....— DelawareRiverRat- Let me tell you people something. I've known Greg Gross for a long time and have been privileged to call him my friend. This man knows so much more about hitting than any of the jokers who get a kick out of calling him names on this site. When GG played in the major leagues, he was well respected for his skills with the bat- either as a full or part-time player in the field and later as a pinch-hitter. The Phillies thought enough of him to replace Milt Thompson whom I also call a friend another respected student and teacher of the art of hitting.
Fair comment from the fan base is one thing, idiotic utterances from morons are quite another. It's sad. So many Philly fans love to rant and rave but really don't know the game at all.
And you know what? This comforts me because these guys couldn't care less what you say here. They have little or no respect for the bloggers and all the poison which come from their pens.— World - This has to be a low even for Philly media types. Let's go find a ticked off ex coach and see what we can stir up since we have nothing else to talk about. And while we're at it, we'll make up a hed that somehow makes Domonic Brown look bad. Which all fits into the let's get Ruff that starting job narative they've been pushing for months now. Like I said, that's pretty pathetic even for this town's media.— JLH
- The template on how to pitch to Ryan Howard was established by the Yankees in the 2009 World Series. Thirteen strikeouts and .174 average. Breaking ball low and outside...and RH went fishing and has ever since.— misterhman
- @stosh....funny...Stocker.....well I think he does have one more .300 season in his career than JStroll...but the Phils don't need 3 hitting coaches, they need about 3 more guys to step up and be Major League Hitters!— Mark1npt
- The Phillies just hired Kevin Stocker to take over for Greg Gross as hitting coach.— UncleStosh
- At the end of the day, Gross couldn't make it happen no matter what excuses are thrown out there. You are paid way more than the average American worker to produce, and when you don't produce they will find someone who will.— ronin32
- He's pretty much accurate in his assessments. Notably Brown looks overmatched and Howard has suffered because the lineup around him has gotten worse and Pence tried too hard because he was trying to be a star player and he's not. I would have liked to hear Gross' comments on Rollins.— Phillies2008WSChamps
- @--S: My late grandmom was a talk radio fan, too. She turned me onto Tom Marr and his Saturday Night Shootout on DB. He had one caller who was a thorn in his side and for the life of me I can't think of his name, Germantown Joe, or someting like that! Tom Marr sits in occasionally for Mark Levin , heard here 6-9 pm on 106.9, WWIQ. He was on but 2 weeks ago. He is still on the air in the mornings down in Maryland, too. You can probably catch him streaming on the internet....
Saturdays on DB had Wynn Moore trying to fix peoples cars, Tom Marr trying to stir up the masses, Yvonne Kay and Murray Needleman trying to fix peoples heads! Needleman: "Now, Breathe deep, deep! Let go of your pain!" And let's not forget the Dom Giordano who manned the 12 am to 5:30 am overnight slot, before he became a mouthpiece for the Republican party.... Great stuff, S!!!!— DelawareRiverRat - I think I remember that guy Tom Marr used to spar with. You brought back some good names. I could hear the voices of Bernie Herman and Dom Quinn, both who I listened to a lot. I also remember Bernie Herman having some local TV show where he'd show a movie and talk about it, way back in the Sally Starr days. Also don't forget David Coleman, always on at some ungodly hour I think and Frank Ford. Then later on Rollye James and Paul W. Smith. That was good talk radio. — s
- I agree gregg gross should have left the whole issue alone. Whether he is right or wrong he is digging his own grave— missurichie
- I agree gregg gross should have left the whole issue alone. Whether he is right or wrong he is digging his own grave— missurichie
- GROSS IS NOT HERE ANYMORE. FOR A REASON.— ACBaughman
- @Advantasux: Great stuff from you and I appreciate it. I recall many a Conlin story about his late night bar hopping with Hughie Alexander, Paul Owens and other front brass and coaches. I often wondered if those days disappeared when the Old Guard baseball men and writers were replaced by the current generation of writers. I've said it before; that foolish Cliff Lee deal cost us a 2nd World Series. The excuse? What with the Halladay deal and the previous Lee deal, we need to restock the minor league system. How did that pan out? We have a relief pitcher who still can't claim a permanent spot as the 8th inning guy, requiring the acquisition of Mike Adams. And a center fielder who most likely will never be a member of this team. A player who could have stepped up when Victorino was fading. Instead we are forced to get Minnesota's #2 CF. And as you correctly state, not a question or peep or tweet from the media.
@Ghost of Callison: In the early 80's I was so into talk radio, I'd record 90 minute cassette tapes of Bernie Herman, Irv Homer, Susan Bray, Dom Quinn, Rod Luck (replaced Eskin on WWDB) and take them with me when I served on a lighthouse off the coast of Maine while in the USCG. Talk radio has changed so much. Back in those days on DB, the host would have actual conversations with the callers, 5-8 minutes long, sometimes longer! These days, the caller makes a 1 sentence sound bite and is dismissed. I'm listening to Smerconish right now. He went from a serious host at one time to a a wishy washy host who is more intent on making nonsensical small talk with his 2 worthless sidekicks. 1210 has fallen far from the old days of Dom Quinn, Tony Bruno in the AM. The old hometown atmosphere is gone.....— DelawareRiverRat - @DRR, I appreciate all you added to my points about the role of the media in this town and for this team, and your musings about the old Conlin stories. I recall the same things about a different time in this town and I wish it could all come back.
Also loved the stuff you shared with @ghost about your love of talk radio back in the old days. Loved reading as well about your USCG nights - and your feelings about that sell-out Smerconish.
Great reads, all of it!!!— advantasux - Qadvantasux, while we all know you are the biggest hater here, and I can't ever remember when a comment you made was insightful, or correct..but I must admit, this is the first comment I have ever seen you make without complaining about something, only to turn around and say the complete opposite when your proven wrong, again..I see you're improving, keep it up — TexasYankee
- thanks for the laughs. You can have your dissenting opinions of the stuff I write but you went too far with the accusation that I will "only turn around and say the complete opposite when I'm proven wrong again".
Seriously, dude, say what you want about the rest, but that doesn't happen with me. I typically sound one note about the failure of management with this team and I never take a different position on that note. I know that makes me quite unpopular here but that's as far as it goes with me.
Meanwhile, I look forward to your insights and opinions going forward. If they're as intelligent as your analysis of the stuff I write, we should all continue to have many laughs at your expense.
Thank you for that.— advantasux - Oh man, I miss the old WWDB. Remember when Tom Marr would drive up from Baltimore to do the weekends? He used to do radio play-by-play for the Orioles before his WWDB days. — s
- Optimist, “I don’t think Domonic ever got comfortable". Realist, Dom Brown is not what they thought he was and will never be comfortable. Pessimist, Dom Brown stinks. Somewhere between Realist and Pessimist lies the truth! Prove us all wrong, Dom!— cooperhawk
- @Advantasux: Not going out on a limb here, but I notice the writers and announcers put out these little tidbits of info here and there in the course of a season. Real fans pick up on some of that stuff and can add 2 and 2 together when it comes to looking at the big picture. I knew that folks like yourself and Ghost of Callison picked up on the Gwynn and Bonds training sessions with RH and we all know all to well the striking difference between his batting style before and after. Why he never went back to Gwynn is baffling.
The "Binocs" Billmeyer episode is equally worthy of an honest discussion. The whole team seemed to slump from that point onward. But I suspect, as Quixote II points out, no media in this town will look deeply into that. They know who pays the freight with these beat writers. Exposing a real scandal would have been their own downfall.
@Ghost: Talk radio fan? I am, big time. I'll go back to the days of WWDB and that old gang. I miss them and that station. Good, local talk radio in our town is dead, IMO...— DelawareRiverRat - @DRR, you're right about the media occasionally laying some of this stuff (Howard with Gwynn versus Bonds) out there for our use, but is it really enough that they never provide more than a token mention of it, or the tidbits of evidence you suggested? This leads more directly into your stronger statements on the Billmeyer affair.
I was one of those whom laughed those allegations away back when they were made. I could see what others readily saw, that the team simply went into a funk from which it rarely recovered after the binocs accusation was made, but I guess I didn't want to give too much credence to what seemed to be such a stretch. After all, these are major league hitters, right?. Now, 3 - 4 seasons after the fact, it is hard to ignore the sustained differences in the team's offense.
As for what you and Quixote have pointed out, that the media in this town simply will not step up to the task of really looking into that matter, well, for me, there is no argument about that. That has become the norm for this team in this town with this media group.
Maybe I didn't follow the team-media relationship closely enough prior to the Phils 5-year run at the top to notice the lapdog mentality that had taken root,, but after the wallpaper job the beat writers and columnists performed for Amaro to help explain the Lee trade to Seattle the day after Doc was acquired, it has never again been what it needs to be.
Amaro seems to "own" these guys even with things turning south now, and he enjoys an immunity from any true analysis of his work to date.
Until that changes, the Phils will continue to slide because, in my opinion, this guy simply is not up to the task. Whether they dare to open up the binocs issue or not, it is high time to examine an unbroken slide that might just continue this season.— advantasux - @DRR: BIG TIME talk radio fan as well. I started in the late 80s/early 90s, when the music started getting stupid.
- On "Binocs" Billmeyer: "Well, that was under Milt's watch, but from what I've been told, Mick was just checking out the sights in the stands. The team batting slump that followed the confiscation of his binoculars is merely coincendence".
On Ryan Howard: Yes, it's known fact that Tony Gwynn coached him up after his rookie year and went on to his MVP year going to all fields. In 2010, the Gwynn approach was abandoned after Ryan paid a visit to Barry Bonds. Should there be some consideration that the Gwynn tutelage served him better? Yes. Will he go back to that approach? That's up to Ryan to decide"
Some quotes that I wish Gross would have addressed and questions Brookover should have asked......— DelawareRiverRat - @DRR resuscitated an old chapter on the Ryan Howard situation that never received the proper attention and could have more to do with all that has changed with Howard since 2010 than anything INCLUDING the leg injury suffered at the end of 2011. It was understood that he was trying a new approach at the plate after conferring with Mr. Bonds. I and many were aware of that right at the start and I and many felt it was not working as well as what he had done in the past.
I, too, would like to hear someone in management (Gross or anyone) speak to those changes in approach that came from Howard's work with Bonds and what management has done to coach him out of that approach.
It is the main story with Howard, and has been for three seasons now. Go back and look at his splits from 2007 - 2009, see how he handled the strike zone and went to all fields, then come back and watch him in 2010 and 2011, and it is IMPOSSIBLE not to see and be disturbed the differences between the two halves of his career.— advantasux - Based on recent years' performance, Domonic Brown was definitely a 5-tool prospect: 1. hit for average- .296 in 7 minor league seasons, 2. hit for power- he's a big guy who has hit some long shots, 3. Speed/baserunning- he is definitely fast, 4. Throwing- c'mon, 5. Fielding ability-sketchy here. The only question marks are on baserunning and fielding, but those are skills that can be learned more so than the others. Put him in one spot and let him go around the big league stadiums a few times and you'll have a 5-tooler by the time he is 28.
I hate Manuel, but I can't say he is the one who jerked Brown around. Brown has been in the line up while on the roster. Amaro is the dough head that went out and overpaid for Pence at the same time Brown was figuring out big league pitching, and then went out and got Nix and Wiggington to play OF while Brown was at Lehigh Valley last year. Riding busses while Nix is making big league money has to be tough on the confidence.— jtj10 - It's a good point: In the minors all the tools appeared to be there. Not in the majors so far but that doesn't necessarily mean he never had them and won't realize some of them in the majors.
I saw two interesting pieces on Brown recently. In one, the discussion was how, statistically, he doesn't have enough at bats yet to draw many conclusions. Even though many of us think we've seen enough the case was presented very well using other young players. The weakest projection was how he'll really hit against LH pitchers. If you recall, there was a time where he seemed to be hitting them pretty well. Now, not so much. The point of the piece was "we have no way of knowing yet."
The other interesting piece was on his hand injuries. Remember the hamate injury in early 2011. Some experts say up to 18 months before some guys truly have their hand strength back after that. Also pointed out was the number of other small hand injuries he's had. Now we all can say he bears some blame for not being able to stay on the field. Some of those knee and hamstring injuries for example are undoubtedly due to the awkward routes he takes in the field (I also seem to recall some bad slides). That's baseball smarts he may be lacking and may never have (compare to Galvis for example, who seems to do so many things the right way). But the hamate fracture seemed more like a freak chance thing (on a swing if I recall) than something I'd lay on Brown.
So if you want to put on your Domonic Brown optimist hat you can say, "Let's see how he looks if he stays healthy for a couple of months and gets regular playing time."
I waffle with the guy. I'd love to see him succeed but he can be very frustrating. His fielding last year was a total shock to me for example -- I never imagined he could look that bad in the outfield.— s - Cholly thinks he knows as much about hitting as Ted Williams did so any hitting coach he hired was just one of his puppets . The players know that GG had no clout so they never listened to him .— Dom8
- To second what @Dom8 write here and all that @ghost has written from the jump on this topic, what has to change for this season is not the number of hitting coaches they now employ but, instead, the amount of clout the players still believe Manuel possesses. If Hitting Coach 1 and Hitting Coach 2 both preach the same thing to our joke of a leadoff hitter, and that leadoff hitter still expects to be able to come back to the dugout and joke with the manager no matter how he did at the plate his last time up, then they can employ 200 hitting coaches, nothing will have changed.
Whether Amaro sent the "hitting guru" a message with the hiring of a second coach or not, I do not know, but, again, it will not matter to the players most important to the team because they will still be never held to account by the bumbling dope who gets to call the shots.
All that will change the situation is the replacement of the veteran coddler-in-chief, the absurdly inept Mr. Manuel.— advantasux - My point exactly and the reason why the team hired TWO hitting coaches this year. Manuel won't be able to bully both of them. Gross gave up too easily. He should have asked for a meeting with Manuel and Amaro to clear the air last year, but he just took it and always looked sullen in the dugout. Gross always had a laid back attitude and I doubt he had the mettle to make any noise about being countermanded by the great "hitting guru".
- 1. Perhaps having 2 hitting coaches this year will keep Manuel from saying anything to the hitters?
2. D Brown is NOT a 5 tool player. Any scout whoever wrote that in a report needs to be fired immediately, if they haven't already because they wouldn't know what the correct 5 tools were if they tripped over them getting out of bed in the morning.
3. GG hasn't said a thing that is disrespecting og management or any players. You can't do that in MLB or you will never get a job again. Anywhere. Period.
4. Howard had better learn pitch recognition, finally.
5. Vic and Pense ARE both head cases (and overrated/overpaid) $13 mil each? Really? Not in their best years, Nope. Just more evidence that you don't need an AS player at each position as the TEAM played better baseball after they were traded.— Mark1npt - 1. I believe this is the intent and also a message to Manuel.
2. I agree that Brown is NOT a 5 tooler. However, I remember reading an article that he once was regarded as a possible 5 tooler by more than one scout. This is before his apparently fragile confidence was destroyed by the way Manuel mishandled him.
3. You are absolutely correct.
4. I don't see him doing anything differently unless he himself recognizes that pitchers are pitching him much differently these days, and for good reason. Howard refuses to, or is incapable of, changing his approach at the plate.
5. Boston overpaid for Victorino, no doubt. Pence is overpaid as well, but both could surprise you this year. Yes, they are head cases, but so was the entire 1993 team that went to the WS. Sometimes, it takes a little character to win. It depends on the team. It took a strong manager in Green and a leader like Rose to finally take those late 70s underachievers to a championship in 1980. Oh, and the team played better after they were traded because Utley and Howard just finished their own "spring training" and were starting to produce, which picked up the rest of the team. Pence tried to do it all by himself and that just wasn't the role he was brought in to play. - why do players go into slumps? if you can come up with the answer to that wee query, we can forget about all the cockamamie stats, sabershmetrics, war, peace, oi vey...plus you'd be the richest human on the planet. the only true stat is the analysis of what goes on in an athlete's head to make him 'hot' or 'cold' for long periods of time, but not in my lifetime is this going to be found. ryan howard happens to be in a mega-year slump. his head is clogged with dreck from his hitting guru-some and others (plus he's one mighty stubborn dude). find a way to steam-clean the guy's mind, let him go up there and use his once-sweet latent talent to whack a baseball, and we're parading down broad street once more. hitting coaches/gurus do more to muck up a natural hitter (i'm including domonic here) than they ever do good.— bubba church & granny hamner
- I'm always left wondering if hitting coaches can really make a difference. Many players are so programmed with what they've done for years that they find it hard to change. Remember how bad the experiment to change Domonic Brown's swing went a few years ago. On the other hand, when Howard moved closer to the plate back in 2011 it seemed to help. I think that was Charlie's advice though (probably others as well). And he ended up reverting back to his old stance ...— s
- Well at least Gross was observant on one matter - he noticed Ryan Howard EXPANDED the strike zone. Howard chased pitches 3 feet outside the strike zone. Will Howard learn the strike zone in 2013?? Old habits are hard to break! What a waste of $25 mil per year of resources!?— johnpaulcpa
- The great thing about writing sports columns for either newspapers or on the internet is the don't have to be timely, don't have to have a point, and they can be nothing than space filler, blithered up so the sportshack will be paid!
GOOD GRIEF GELB! If you have NOTHING to say, SAY nothing!
I know. I know. That's a really difficult concept (idea) for a sportshack!— BEMiller - I think all of us could have done without the "leftover" quotes from Gross. It's a cheap way to fill a column and nobody cares what this loser has to say. That said, there is some truth in the specualtion re Manuel not allowing Gross to do his job. Cholly had a lackluster career as an active player and had to go to Japan where longball hitters are worshiped. Now he thinks he can fix whatever is wrong with a player's swing. He can't. Take a look at Howard's offensive dropoff since 2008.— 1republican
- It's not a column, it's an internet post. It's purely leftover material - Brookover makes that very clear in the first paragraph. "Nobody cares" what Gross has to say, yet you took the time to not only read what he had to say, but to comment on it. Obviously, you must care. — Jeff Dowder
- Just in passing, I've noticed your "handle" before. Let me guess, you've GOT to be a fan of the Phil Hendrie show. So am I.
- @ghost, just my own curiosity here...which of the prior posters was the subject of this last post and what is the hook? I know the Hendrie show and I'm not seeing the connection. — advantasux
- Jeff Dowder (actually Phil Hendrie), the spaced out California guy that acted really stupid and, on occasion, while talking with a real caller, would take a "hit" on a bong.
- got it. "Jeff Dowder", now I understand. Wasn't sure who you were speaking to with all the comments you've posted today.
Dude, you're on fire and have been for a few weeks now. You need to save something for the season, especially if they come out of the gate 10 - 20, or something like that.
As I write all the time, I hope your concerns and mine and those of @war, @copper and a few others, prove to be wrong, and I know you feel the same way. My kids and I live for the Phils' success, thought it was sustainable with the levels of money they continue to spend each season, and can't believe how fast it seems to have all come crashing down.
Man, I hope we are wrong!— advantasux - I ABSOLUTELY want to be wrong! I want us to win another 102. I've lived, and usually died, with this team for about as long as you, since '62 for me. I just retired, so I've got a lot more time to "haunt" these boards than I did before. I want the best for our team, just like you my friend. That's why I'm frustrated with Amaro's inaction in the last two off-seasons and the continual mismanagement of the team by a fraud posing as a "hitting guru". Sorry for the tough words, but I'm really sick of the latest version of the "Happy the Clown" show. I watched it enough growing up back in the late 50s/early 60s.
- my best wishes for your good health, my friend. — advantasux
- I agree. I liked GG as a player. I liked him less when I got to see him on the bench regularly. He just looked so damn miserable. I used to wonder how young players would respond to that sort of demeanor. With this article he comes across as even a bigger loser. He should have said nothing and just moved on. — s
- I agree that Gross looked "damned miserable". But, in my opinion (and I've already made this comment) I think he was miserable due to the fact that his boss (Manuel) was countermanding a lot of what he was telling the hitters to do. If you had a boss that continually countered your philosophy at your job, you'd be miserable too.
- Ryan Howard needs to lay down a bunt or stroke the 1st outside pitch down the 3rd base line that will put him on base. Until that happens, nothing will have changed. Anyone that says otherwise doesn't understand the game...the objective is to get on base any way you can and if they want to give you a base you take it...1000% OBP is better than 300 stikeouts a year— Friend to All
- BTW, what Greg Gross stated has been stated before with Pense and Victorino. Pense did in fact try way too hard with both Utley/Howard out of the line up. However, his numbers didn't exactly explode in SF either. As for Victorino, we'll see in Boston. He is very good from one side of the plate, mediocre at best from the other side of the plate. He moves to another position and maybe with less stress in CF, he can concentrate on his offensive part of the game. Again, after the trade to LA, his numbers didn't change.— drhoffman
- We'll never really know. From what I read in the other article, Gross was countermanded at every turn by what Manuel was feeding his hitters at the batting cage. So, basically, Manuel cut off Gross legs and when you are continually countermanded or the hitters hear something totally different from the resident "hitting guru" (Manuel) that kills any credibility Gross may have had. He was nothing but a scape goat for Manuel. There was a reason Gross looked pissed off and disinterested every time you saw a shot of him in the dugout -- how would you feel if you were trying to do what you were hired to do and your boss was continually telling the employees to do the job you gave them in a different fashion?
- Maybe. But you're taking what Gross said and taking some liberties with expanding on it to make it a much bigger thing than what he admitted to. Here's what Gross said in the interview:
It's not that Charlie and I weren't on the same page, it's just different ideas a lot of times. If Charlie is saying something to a hitter, and I'm saying something to a hitter, and those things don't mesh, then you might have a problem."
Gross does not think that happened.
"No player ever said, 'Charlie told me to do this or that,' " he said.— s - I read what he said. I don't consider it "taking liberties". I consider it using my head. Gross doesn't want to totally throw Manuel under the bus, or he'll be seen as disloyal by his current team. But, you can read between the lines and I can see it happening. Manuel should have been more professional and should have consorted with his hitting coach before offering suggestions to the hitters that would countermand what they were being told by the real hitting coach.
- Who is Greg Gross? It is odd that he is a hitting coach in the current era considering the following: He was never good enough to be a MLB starter. He was a slap hitting singles hitter who lacked even doubles gap power AND was only capable of hitting the ball the other way. He had an unorthodox stance, weight distribution and total lack of turn on the ball. What exactly does he have to offer hitters? Knock Manual all you want but when he retires their are at least two guys who have explicitly said he taught them how to hit(Thome and Manny Ramirez) as well as several other HOF'rs who mention him as an influence. Also, Utley and Rollins greatly improved when Manual took over. — UncleStosh
- @UncleStosh
"Who is Greg Gross"
Greg Gross amassed 1,073 hits and finished with a career average of .287 in his 17-year career.
"After some experimentation and refinement, we came up with a stance and hitting approach for me that worked. And little did I realize at the time what it was going to do and how it was going to change my life. I've never looked back." - George Brett on hitting coach Charlie Lau. Brett also has acknowledged that Lau is the reason he is in he Hall of Fame.
Lau, in 11 seasons, finished with 298 career hits.
Walt Hriniak played just two seasons, collecting 25 hits. Yet, in their Hall of Fame speeches, Carl Yastrzemski, Carlton Fisk & Wade Boggs each noted the role Hriniak played as the Red Sox unofficial hitting coach, before getting the title in 1984, in helping them get to Cooperstown. Frank Thomas, likely a Hall of Famer in 2014, also was a loyal adherent of Hriniak.
But don't let me shoot holes in your opinion with a lot of facts.— PhightinPhil - Manual was a terrible major league hitter, so was the great hitting coach Charlie Lau. Ted Williams was a terrible manager. Some of the best coaches and managers are the ones who had to work and think harder because they had limited talent.
- Manual was a terrible major league hitter, so was the great hitting coach Charlie Lau. Ted Williams was a terrible manager. Some of the best coaches and managers are the ones who had to work and think harder because they had limited talent.
- For what it's worth, I believe Charlie acting as some sort of hitting guru is definitely a problem. But I don't know that I'd take what GG said as any indication that it's a huge issue happening all the time as you state. The bigger issue is the hitters themselves not listening, which GG also has some quotes on. I also think there's a lot of sour grapes there. I was surprised they brought Gross back at all in 2012. The hitting had fallen to new lows under his leadership between the end of 2010 and 2011. Even if the hitters or Charlie are partly to blame GG should have fully expected to be fired given the direction the hitting went under him. I never thought he showed anything more than Thompson (probably less).
I think the hiring of two hitting coaches could be a positive. I doubt that was Charlie's decision. It may be an attempt to keep him further away from the hitters. If nothing else, two guys are going to be able to present more of a case to be left to do their jobs than one.— s - I agree with your assessment to a degree.
Regarding the hiring of two hitting coaches, that appears to be gaining popularity with some teams, but in this case, I am of the opinion that hiring two hitting coaches this year was to send Manuel a message. I can almost guarantee that Manuel was definitely against it, either publicly in talks with Amaro, or he privately accepted it, knowing that he was already treading on thin ice. He just needs to stay away from the hitters. His manner of communication has to be confusing to most of them and his lack of prowess in his own career had to be a sticking point with the real hitters on this team. - I guess the only positive is how great a hitting coach Gross was.— Ron
- I'm confused here...if they lose it's Charlies fault, all his fault. But they have enjoyed the best success in their history and Charlie has nothing to do with it? New to baseball are you? I would learn a little more about the game first before you make comments that only expose you're lack of knowledge and embarrass yourself. Even fans new to baseball know it's a team game and the manager has the most influence on whether they win, or lose — TexasYankee
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