Some Gross leftovers
Sometimes you write a story for the newspaper and you run out of room to get everything in. Unlimited space is the beauty of the internet age.
Some Gross leftovers
Bob Brookover, Inquirer Baseball Columnist
Sometimes you write a story for the newspaper and you run out of room to get everything in. Unlimited space is the beauty of the internet age.
I wrote a story about former Phillies hitting coach Greg Gross for Sunday and had some leftover quotes. Here are the leftovers. I hope you enjoy them as much as I love leftover Thanksgiving turkey.
I asked Gross about several of the Phillies’ hitters, including the exiled Hunter Pence and Shane Victorino, and here’s what he had to say.
On Pence: “I think Hunter put a lot of pressure on himself. With other guys out, he felt like he had to carry the team. People who watched, I think they saw a different player compared to when he came over the second half of the previous season.”
On Victorino: “Shane, I think the whole free agency thing … I don’t think he responded well to that situation. In the end, he ends up doing pretty well for himself (with Boston). If he had known during the year that was going to end up what it was going to be, he would have been more relaxed.”
On Domonic Brown: “I don’t think Domonic ever got comfortable. He never has been at any level for a whole season and the game at the top level is difficult. That learning curve in a situation where you’re expected to win is going to be really short. The patience is not going to be that long. A second-division club is totally different for a young player. They learn that way. In a situation like the Phillies have been in since 2006, the leash is going to be real short.”
On Chase Utley: “He’s played catch up for two straight seasons. You don’t just jump in and play the game at this speed. It just doesn’t happen. It’s one thing to go through spring training and then get hurt, but when you go from October all the way through June without playing, that’s asking a lot. He’s a guy I really pull for to get through spring training. He’s one of the best workers I’ve ever been around. They had two of the best there: one was him and the other was Juan Pierre.”
On Ryan Howard: “They got away from the lineup they had when Jayson Werth left. They banged the ball and everybody did. I don’t know if he’d admit it, but with things going the way they’re going, he feels like he has to hit three-run home runs all the time to help pick up the team. I think that expands the strike zone. He chases more pitches than he did in the past. I think it’s human nature. No matter how good you are, you need help.
“Plus, he’s been in the league a lot longer. The pitching over the years, they pitch him a little different than they did in years before. Pitching in our division is also a lot better over the last few years. When you see Washington and Atlanta 18 times a year, you’re seeing good pitching. It’s like when we’d go into a place, you’d see good hitters go bad depending on who they were facing those three games. Halladay, Hamels and Lee make a lineup look sick.”
I guess the only positive is how great a hitting coach Gross was.— Ron- I'm confused here...if they lose it's Charlies fault, all his fault. But they have enjoyed the best success in their history and Charlie has nothing to do with it? New to baseball are you? I would learn a little more about the game first before you make comments that only expose you're lack of knowledge and embarrass yourself. Even fans new to baseball know it's a team game and the manager has the most influence on whether they win, or lose — TexasYankee
We'll never really know. From what I read in the other article, Gross was countermanded at every turn by what Manuel was feeding his hitters at the batting cage. So, basically, Manuel cut off Gross legs and when you are continually countermanded or the hitters hear something totally different from the resident "hitting guru" (Manuel) that kills any credibility Gross may have had. He was nothing but a scape goat for Manuel. There was a reason Gross looked pissed off and disinterested every time you saw a shot of him in the dugout -- how would you feel if you were trying to do what you were hired to do and your boss was continually telling the employees to do the job you gave them in a different fashion?- Maybe. But you're taking what Gross said and taking some liberties with expanding on it to make it a much bigger thing than what he admitted to. Here's what Gross said in the interview:
It's not that Charlie and I weren't on the same page, it's just different ideas a lot of times. If Charlie is saying something to a hitter, and I'm saying something to a hitter, and those things don't mesh, then you might have a problem."
Gross does not think that happened.
"No player ever said, 'Charlie told me to do this or that,' " he said.— s - I read what he said. I don't consider it "taking liberties". I consider it using my head. Gross doesn't want to totally throw Manuel under the bus, or he'll be seen as disloyal by his current team. But, you can read between the lines and I can see it happening. Manuel should have been more professional and should have consorted with his hitting coach before offering suggestions to the hitters that would countermand what they were being told by the real hitting coach.
- For what it's worth, I believe Charlie acting as some sort of hitting guru is definitely a problem. But I don't know that I'd take what GG said as any indication that it's a huge issue happening all the time as you state. The bigger issue is the hitters themselves not listening, which GG also has some quotes on. I also think there's a lot of sour grapes there. I was surprised they brought Gross back at all in 2012. The hitting had fallen to new lows under his leadership between the end of 2010 and 2011. Even if the hitters or Charlie are partly to blame GG should have fully expected to be fired given the direction the hitting went under him. I never thought he showed anything more than Thompson (probably less).
I think the hiring of two hitting coaches could be a positive. I doubt that was Charlie's decision. It may be an attempt to keep him further away from the hitters. If nothing else, two guys are going to be able to present more of a case to be left to do their jobs than one.— s - I agree with your assessment to a degree.
Regarding the hiring of two hitting coaches, that appears to be gaining popularity with some teams, but in this case, I am of the opinion that hiring two hitting coaches this year was to send Manuel a message. I can almost guarantee that Manuel was definitely against it, either publicly in talks with Amaro, or he privately accepted it, knowing that he was already treading on thin ice. He just needs to stay away from the hitters. His manner of communication has to be confusing to most of them and his lack of prowess in his own career had to be a sticking point with the real hitters on this team. - Who is Greg Gross? It is odd that he is a hitting coach in the current era considering the following: He was never good enough to be a MLB starter. He was a slap hitting singles hitter who lacked even doubles gap power AND was only capable of hitting the ball the other way. He had an unorthodox stance, weight distribution and total lack of turn on the ball. What exactly does he have to offer hitters? Knock Manual all you want but when he retires their are at least two guys who have explicitly said he taught them how to hit(Thome and Manny Ramirez) as well as several other HOF'rs who mention him as an influence. Also, Utley and Rollins greatly improved when Manual took over. — UncleStosh
- Manual was a terrible major league hitter, so was the great hitting coach Charlie Lau. Ted Williams was a terrible manager. Some of the best coaches and managers are the ones who had to work and think harder because they had limited talent.
- Manual was a terrible major league hitter, so was the great hitting coach Charlie Lau. Ted Williams was a terrible manager. Some of the best coaches and managers are the ones who had to work and think harder because they had limited talent.
- @UncleStosh
"Who is Greg Gross"
Greg Gross amassed 1,073 hits and finished with a career average of .287 in his 17-year career.
"After some experimentation and refinement, we came up with a stance and hitting approach for me that worked. And little did I realize at the time what it was going to do and how it was going to change my life. I've never looked back." - George Brett on hitting coach Charlie Lau. Brett also has acknowledged that Lau is the reason he is in he Hall of Fame.
Lau, in 11 seasons, finished with 298 career hits.
Walt Hriniak played just two seasons, collecting 25 hits. Yet, in their Hall of Fame speeches, Carl Yastrzemski, Carlton Fisk & Wade Boggs each noted the role Hriniak played as the Red Sox unofficial hitting coach, before getting the title in 1984, in helping them get to Cooperstown. Frank Thomas, likely a Hall of Famer in 2014, also was a loyal adherent of Hriniak.
But don't let me shoot holes in your opinion with a lot of facts.— PhightinPhil - BTW, what Greg Gross stated has been stated before with Pense and Victorino. Pense did in fact try way too hard with both Utley/Howard out of the line up. However, his numbers didn't exactly explode in SF either. As for Victorino, we'll see in Boston. He is very good from one side of the plate, mediocre at best from the other side of the plate. He moves to another position and maybe with less stress in CF, he can concentrate on his offensive part of the game. Again, after the trade to LA, his numbers didn't change.— drhoffman
- Ryan Howard needs to lay down a bunt or stroke the 1st outside pitch down the 3rd base line that will put him on base. Until that happens, nothing will have changed. Anyone that says otherwise doesn't understand the game...the objective is to get on base any way you can and if they want to give you a base you take it...1000% OBP is better than 300 stikeouts a year— Friend to All
