Phillies confident Young can rebound
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Phillies confident Young can rebound
Matt Gelb, Inquirer Staff Writer
The Phillies believe they have found a third baseman in Michael Young, a 36-year-old veteran who has not regularly played the position in two seasons and posted career-worst numbers in 2012.
That says as much about the other options at third base than anything. On Sunday, the Young trade was made official, with relievers Josh Lindblom and Lisalverto Bonilla headed to Texas. The Rangers will reportedly pay $10 million of Young's $16 million salary in 2013. The Phillies paid Young $1.2 million to waive his no-trade clause, a decision he deliberated for days, and will also grant him a new no-trade provision.
It was a hefty haul for Young, who was marginalized in Texas despite his tenure and respect.
"He has a tremendous track record," Phillies GM Ruben Amaro Jr. said Sunday. "I know that last year was not his best year, but after talking to the scouts and discussing it intently with the rest of our front office, we felt like this is an excellent person to bring to our club."
Amaro did not return requests for specific comment. Instead, the team issued his responses through a pool reporter from MLB.com.
Left unanswered is why the Phillies think Young is defensively capable of handling third base on an everyday basis given he primarily served as designated hitter for the last two seasons with Texas. Young won a Gold Glove at shortstop in 2008 and played at third in 2009 and 2010. Advanced defensive metrics rated him among the worst at the position.
Young, a career .301 hitter, batted .277 with a paltry .312 on-base percentage in 2012. His 26 double plays hit into were second only to Miguel Cabrera's 28.
One metric, wins above replacement (WAR), rated Young's 2012 among the worst seasons in modern baseball history. There are only three worse seasons (minimum 600 plate appearances) than Young's minus-2.4 WAR since 1947, according to Baseball-Reference.com.
The Phillies, of course, are banking on 2012 being an aberration. In 2011, Young batted .338 with an .854 OPS and led the American League in hits. He has been an All-Star seven times.
"You don't have a great year every year," Amaro said. "He's had some years where he hit .280 and others where he hit .330. But at the same time, even when his numbers aren’t extraordinary — and they were still pretty darn good last year, maybe better than anybody we had on our club — the fact of the matter is he's a professional hitter. He's a guy who we know will strive to be the best player he can be. And even when he's not having productive hits, I know he’s the kind of guy who makes productive outs. So there's a lot of pluses to this guy."
Young's leadership was often praised in Texas, where he spent the first 13 years of his career. "He's such a professional," Rangers manager Ron Washington said. "If there was crying in baseball, I guess I'd cry." Amaro described Young as "the ultimate team player."
The acquisition of Young leaves Kevin Frandsen and Freddy Galvis as utility infielders. With one of the oldest infields in baseball, those two could serve as insurance policies. One could also become a late-inning defensive replacement for Young.
Amaro's two recent trades were aimed at saving money. Young and new centerfielder Ben Revere will make a combined $6.5 million in 2013. Placido Polanco and Shane Victorino made $15.8 million at those positions in 2012.
With a payroll that is approximately $20 million shy of last season's, Amaro has plenty of flexibility to add offense in the outfield.
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Comments (52)
It's not everyday a gm lists 'productive outs' as a reason for signing a guy. Guess the Jim Thome experiment hasn't scarred Rube- young is bait to get josh hamilton. can have him play a corner outfield spot with revere in center and he is not the only star so not crazy pressure. add in michael young from his former team to make him comfortable and you've got an environment he could be successful in.— illadelphson
- OK, now lets get Josh Hamilton.— zeke128
- Please god no. Everyone (should) agree that the Ryan Howard contract is an albatross, a huge mistake that cannot be rectified. Now instead of learning from that mistake, we are going to make the same exact one with 4 year contract to a 32 year old outfielder. He will live up to his 20-25 million/year price tag for one, maybe two years and then we will have two declining power hitters making $50 million/year total and no budget room to improve the team. Long term contracts to power hitters already in their decline does not work out for the team 95% of the time. — PhillyCRNA
- the second trade was way better than the first but, let's see the next move. hopefully another ranger hitter is what i want.— wildgreenman
- F the WAR stats. This guy's a gamer and is exactly what this team needs. Maybe J-Pop won't sulk as much with Young around to give him the sh*t eye once and a while...— Sam Crow
- Thinly veiled racist post. — PhillyCRNA
- Too bad the Rangers didn't drop all that dough on Greinke.— escapedcamden4monterey
- Both moves are fine if if if they have just decent years as long as the RF is a power hitter and they can get some 6in. 5th starter and a reliever. Then I actually think, with the Lord's help, they could challenge the Nats and Braves. Knowing Philly, something will happen....like Al Capp's guy with the black cloud over his head.— Koons
- Those that don't like any moves the Phils ever make will continue to complain. Those with an open mind will wait to see how things play out. Someone want to show me where all these future stars the Phils are trading are making a difference on someone elses roster. They are called prospects for a reason.— dond2885
- I think the huge hinge-factor is whether utley, howard and halladay rebound or continue to decline. if they are out for much of the season and/or don't produce, it's going to be, in all probability, a disappointing year.— doc35
- Ah, but if they're all healthy…..— Joe at the shore
- Reading that article clearly supports my long-time assertion that Ruben Amaro doesn't understand baseball or numbers. The guy had the third worst season of any player in 65 years and Rube looks at that and says his numbers were "still pretty darn good"?!?!?! He must have mistaken the slugging percentage (.370) for on base percentage, because .370 would be pretty good for OBP and probably better than anyone the Phillies had. Otherwise, he is just a clueless ex-bat boy and player playing GM with the silent partner's money.— jtj10
- i sure hope im wrong. i try to look at each move objectively but im not loving either move so far. even if michael young is the young of 2011, this team likely isnt good enough- and you gave up a reliver who could help you the next 7 years- if they had dumped schwimmer instead of giving up bonilla id have no problem with it- nice move by the Texas gm dumping salary, saving ron Washington from himself, and getting a couple arms.— jim715
I'd like to see Manuel use Young about 4 starts a week. Give Frandsen 2 starts. Get Galvis prepared in Spring Training to become a strong defensive replacement late in games at third. Manuel has some versatility with some of these infielders. He has to be creative with this group.— Von Wockenfuss- John Wockenfuss. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a while... you related to him, Von?
— Sam Crow - This was a good deal from the money side of things, and is definitely a "win now" move. Still don't see a lot of pop in the line-up, though. Add to that the potential for less defense at 3rd base that might make last year's mediocre team fielding (#8 in NL) the new normal, an unsettled bullpen, and only 2 reliable, uninjured starters in Lee and Hamels, I'd say Amaro has a lot of work left to do. Still more questions than answers.— ijj
- I like both moves.
Revere is a young (and much cheaper) Bourn. People have been asking for youth and we got that.
Young, isn't--but he may be a viable stop gap until something opens in trade, free agency or Ashe comes of age. I do not know what he will bring defensively to 3rd base--but I will keep an open mind and wait to see. Despite an off year last year--he could be a good RH bat in the lineup--offensively he is an upgrade over Polanco and Galvis.— Smoothellc - Banking on Frandsen to be your everyday 3b and put up the same numbers he did last yr is risky, adding M.Young provides you with better offense(i know it's not a lock but i'd say it's more than likely he'll rebound) and at the very least gives you depth options if things go south at the position. If Rube let it be Frandsen or bust, and he struggled, would you really want Galvis/mini-mart as next in line to be the full time starter, i know i wouldn't. Frandsen now becomes a nice fall back option, i think his short line drive type swing could play well as a pinch hitter too. Considering a guy like Youkalis is gonna command a multi yr deal, Young for less money and only one year is a better way to go. Let's hope C.Asche continues progressing and really is our 3b of the future so we don't need another stop gap. Also, to those who are going crazy about losing this kid Bonilla, look up his numbers after the season ended. He's been playing in one of those dominican winter leagues and he's getting rocked every time he takes the mound. Why people are up in arms about losing a guy they've never seen is beyond me. Just like when everyone wanted Cloyd because he put up these great numbers, then you actually see him pitch and you start to realize his ceiling isn't very high. Bonilla might very well be a major league pitcher one day, but they say his mechanics suck, so i'd bet it's more likely he blows his arm out than him becoming a reliable bullpen arm.— Stephen45
- I dont belong to the jump on Amaro club but his continual trading of top prospects is questionable. The Phills have or now had 4 top pitching prospects in the minors, Biddle, Morgan, May and Bonilla. The last two are gone along with D'Arnaud, Singleton and Cosart. Perhaps Watson or someone else will emerge. I understand you have to give something to get something still at some point it can catch up to Phills. Also concerned about Young's defense at 3B. He does project to add good righthanded bat.— Don w
- The Phillies will not be competitve with the Nationals and the Braves in the 2013 season. They can only hope to enter the post season as the final qualifier through the one game Wild Card playoff game. Remember last season they finished 17 games behind the Nats and 13 games behind the Braves. Do Revere and Young make up that kind of deficit? The Nats and the Braves each now have a lehtal combination youth and experience on their teams. They will only get "better and better" as the season progresses. Now searching for an "old" fourth starter the Phillies will only get "Old and Older" as these aging players with declining skill sets just like last season are likely to go on and off the disabled list all season long .— Dull
- Dull is correct. Short of some miraculous infield fountain of youth, no moves have yet put the Phillies ahead of the Nats or Braves. Instead, we're dusting off the yearly "if healthy" banners. I like the Michael Young of 4-5 years ago. For a year and for what the Rangers paid in his salary it's not a bad move. But it's also not a good move to constantly try and buck the odds with aging players. With the moves made so far Amaro really has to go for a power outfielder if he wants to increase those offensive odds. Ruf could be a big part of the power equation but they really need the safety net of a known power hitter. Hamilton is the only real difference maker but I think it's more likely we see a Cody Ross type guy. We also need a starting pitcher and 8th inning guy in my opinion. I really would have liked to see a trade for a younger power guy either at third base or in the outfield. I suppose it's still possible to try and get Justin Upton but that seems like a pretty remote possibility.— s
- Confuscious says: When you build your team around players 35 years old, health issues follow.— Bobphxville
- Thw Braves without Chipper Jones are not going to be the same Braves. The addition of Upton will do little to offset the loss of Jones, Bourn, Ross, Hanson, Jurrjens and Moylan. The Nats played way above their heads last year. The addition of Span does little to help them. The Mets will still be in a state of flux and the Marlins will need a flux capacitor to take them back to the future. The Phils have significantly improved with the additions of Revere and Young and are still in the process of making additions. The Phils were injured last year, and this year promises to be much healthier.— onthebucks
- I guess it's good to be optimistic. I see a team with big offensive holes who added a guy with zero power and a low OBP and another guy who's clearly in decline. I see an existing aging infield that's seen a lot of injuries the past 2-3 years that's suddenly supposed to come in healthy when they're all a year older. I see two aging aces, one who showed some serious issues last year one who seems to have yearly trips to the DL with back problems. I see a 4th starter who has never been predictable as a starter and no clear 5th starter at all. I see a bunch of 7th and 8th inning arms who didn't prove they can be consistent at all.
I'd like it all to work out but I think Amaro better make some other moves if he wants to help the odds. Too many "if's" for me at this point.
I also think the Nats are legitimate contenders. I started the year off thinking they were playing over their heads but they have a very solid team that's also very young. I never discount the Braves, who always seem to have a good pipeline of young players ready to step in.
— s - @Sam Crow: No relation, Sam. I always thought that John Wockenfuss was one of the most obscure Phillies ever. I am combining his name with Von Hayes, giving it a very strong German sound. Any kind of bad losing streak going in the 2013 season and my catch phrase will be: Wockenfuss is going on with this team?— Von Wockenfuss
- how could they be "confident"? --they don't know the first thing about him and have an awful track record in evaluating players ..I don't claim to know much about Michael Young and whether or not he's washed up or can play defense, but one thing I can tell you is that the Phils most definitely don't have a clue ...and people a lot smarter than the brainless imbecile who runs the Phils don't think the Phils got a credible 3rd baseman or that the Phils have done much to bring themseves up from mediocrity..right now the only suspense is whether they can reach .500— warbiscuit
- news alert: brainless imbecile says he thinks maybe perhaps he's confident that someone who once was a good player should perhaps again be a good player again for no other reason other than because he really hopes so and he traded a legit minor league prospect to get him, and because he couldn't figure out anything else to do to get a 3rd baseman so hopefuly maybe for sure this guy should be able to play still a little maybe... heck of a way to put together a baseball team, that's what got the Phils Dontrelle Willis and Thome and Qualls and Wigginton and Schnedier, etc last year— warbiscuit
- Moronic tool loved the Qualls signing and when he pitched liked a dog he said he was misused, LOL what a dope — DogBiscuitthedope
- I'm thinking the three to be had are Nick Swisher, Cody Ross, and of course Hamilton. Ross bats righty and has the best BA over the last nine years but Swisher has had the best upside over the last few years and is a switch hitter. Hamilton is a lefty and will cost 20M per, which is a lot. All are about the same age.
If the Phillies plan is Ruf, Revere, and Hamilton, that's about 21.2M in the starting outfield. Doable. For 80 HRs from last year. We have to hope that Ruf wasn't playing over his head and can repeat in the majors.— CarolinaEagle - @Wokenfuss - haha...got it. Johnny Wockenfuss had an unusual batting stance, if I remember correctly. Quite an unusual name to be sure! :)
There is another big bat on the way, folks. Cody Ross sees the ball extremely well at CBP and could put up career numbers in red pinstripes. Swisher would look good too. Hamilton is really good friends with Young as some have pointed out, so stay tuned...— Sam Crow - I think my order of preference, discounting any money or contract issues would be Hamilton, Ross, Swisher. I'm not a huge Swisher fan. He's been horrible in the post-season with a lot of post-season appearances to make it a concern. If he helps get us there then disappears, what good is he? Hamilton has also had some post-season problems but he's such a difference maker I'd still probably take him even with all his issues. I've never been a big Cody Ross fan but he's got some decent numbers and his limited post-season appearances have been very good (as we all painfully remember). I'm warming up to the idea of Cody Ross. I just wonder if, at the end of the day, getting a guy like Swisher or Ross isn't going to be that much different than letting a guy like Brown play regularly. If the Phillies get an outfielder I think they need to be able to play a decent center field so we can get a bat in there when needed. Revere brings no power at all.— s
- texas wants to spend its money on pitching and get Upton in a trade. here's hoping hamilton is in the works.— high water
- @ijj: after Polanco got hurt they played awful defense at 3B. Wiggy was atrocious and Frandsen was not good there either. Young once won a GG at SS...so he can field and throw, even at 36. He had an off year, for him, and drove in almost 70. He averages 16 HR 87 RBI and a .301 ave for his career. Tell me that's not better than they have been getting from 3B lately?— Paul SoTX
- Young's Gold Glove was in 2008 -- 5 years ago -- and it was when he was playing shortstop. His 3B defense numbers are pretty horrible. If you look at UZR, he's double digit negative, whereas Frandsen was just under zero last year. Polanco was around 40. Pedro Feliz, who was a stellar defensive third baseman was up over 80. So the drop-off in defense at third base is probably going to be noticeable, particularly since Young hasn't played regularly there in two years. This is very similar to the Thome signing except that Young has been fielding some (although he's mostly been a DH), he's younger and he's fewer years away from his peak than Thome was. We can get excited about it if he has a rebound year. But until I see something I'm assuming he's more of an insurance policy than anything else. The other big problem here may be that Charlie overplays him just like he does all the old guys. With Young's recent history he really should be rested for him to be useful for any sort of playoff run. Charlie plays his veterans to a fault, which is one of the reasons this team has gone downhill. — s
- 'hefty haul'?? yea right. Unbelievable stupid writing. what assclowns.— spittooncj
- Amaro has made two good moves -- if you swallow hard and realize we have Utley ($16 million) and Howard ($25 million), and the 2013 season basically hinges on how well they do. You can throw in Halladay ($20 million) but, IMO, if a No. 2 or 3 starter has a bad year and another pitcher (like the 2011 Worley) steps up, you're still OK.
Bottom line: Young will give us more offense at 3B than we've had in years. This is a contract year for him, his last, and he's in a hitter-friendly park. They fact that he plays other infield positions is a bonus.
Revere is a step back offensively from Victorino, other than steals. But, his low salary is key and we've seen Shane's peak years by now.
We don't have the money to sign Hamilton, who's likely to stay in Texas now that they've lost Greinke. So I'm hoping for Swisher who, to me, is more of an every-day guy than Ross. I'd be fine with Ross too, though.
We'll add a veteran reliever, hopefully better than Qualls, and give it a go. I like that Amaro seems to realize Galvis and Mayberry are bench/role/utility players. They are. For life.
— eman - I just wonder what they promised Young. It would be a mistake to commit to him being the everyday third baseman until we see what he has in my opinion. If he gets replaced with a defensive sub when it's warranted, if they rest him a bit and if he fills in at second (meaning Utley is also getting some rest) then it may turn out to be a good signing. Or maybe the change of scenery gives him new life. But he's clearly on the way down and probably on the express train, not the local. The smart thing to do would be to go into the season with an open mind and also with an eye toward giving some innings at all the infield positions to younger players. Ruf, Nix and Mayberry can all play first. Frandsen, Young and Galvis can play second. Galvis can play shortstop. Frandsen and Galvis can play third. I just doubt Charlie will do this. He's not a good manager for an aging team in my opinion. He and a lot of people in the organization think 2008 was a few months ago. They ignore the realities of aging players. — s
- Next big move is PROMOTING SANDBERG and giving this team a professional manager who understands strategic baseball.— TruthTeller01
- The Phils aren't through puting the 2013 team together by any means. There are quite a few very affordable starting pitchers the Phils could acquire through free agency. These are all young guys guys with good to outstanding track records. Acquire two of any of the following and the Phils will have one of the strongest back end rotations in baseball: Liriano, Marcum, Karstens, Jurrjens, Zambrano or Lannan. Acquire two of these guys and move Kendrick back to the pen where he can help the Phils in a few different ways, including being the 8th inning set-up man. I'd also look for the rest of the young bullpen to put it all together this year. Guys like Aumont, Bastardo and Stutes should have very good years. I'd also think about adding Peter Moylan at low cost. The Phils still have big bucks to spend on a major impact bat, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Stanton or Hamilton signed sometime soon. All in all, I think the Phils are on the right track and have the ability and desire to make a few major additions that will return the Phils to the top of the ML East.— onthebucks
- I'd love to see two pitchers signed but I really think they only have the money for one, particularly if they want to add a power hitting outfielder. The only two pitchers I really feel we can count on are Hamels and Lee right now. I'm hesitant about Halladay but I also feel if anyone can rebound it's him. We really won't know until we see him in spring training. My fear with him is there's some sort of low level damage/wear he's never going to really bounce back from. His velocity loss last year was very troubling. We really need Lee to stay off the DL and have a solid year. The other issue is depth. If any one of the top three starters go down, we're very thin. Last year we has Blanton, Worley and Kendrick to fill those gaps. Right now we have Kendrick. Not a lot of room for error there.— s
- Here's the thing about WAR...you'd be primarily comparing Young to 1B and DH players in 2012. He's not your prototypical player at either position. Baseball-Reference's version of WAR gives the defensive statistics greater credence. The real test would be to run oWAR compared to league 3B.
Also, one bright spot in those advanced statistics I love to hate is Young BABIP. For his career, his BABIP is .334 - in 2012, it was .299. Maybe 2012 was just an unlucky year for Mr Young.— slovak34 - Yo Slo. Very informative. And thank you. Please stick around. This site desperately needs more data and less hate.
— zubzub - I remember how excited they all were last offseason by the signings of Wiggy, Nix and Thome.— wo_fat
- If Young can put up offensive numbers somewhere toward the average of this year and 2011 all should be fine. The more he can approach 2011 numbers the better the deal will look, even if he's lousy defensively. He's also shown he can stay on the field but Polanco was also not missing much time until we got him. Also remember that Young has been mostly DH'ing the past two years. Not playing the field has kept him rested. I feel like this is not going to be taken into account. I just can't imagine Charlie backing off a guy who has the numbers Young had a few years ago.— s
- Young is going to do great in Philly. He's a guy with a good head on his shoulders and something to prove. I think he wants to have the final say about his ability to play an infield position and play every day - two areas of contention he had with the Rangers the past two seasons. He stays healthy, he'll be a great presence in the club house and NL pitchers don't know him. This guy was the acknowledged team leader of the Rangers for many years and he will motivate the other Phils to bring their best game to the park every day. Likewise, he will feed off their encouragement and have a much better year than anyone expects. Young joins a team of guys who want to win. Their chemistry will be optimal and the result will be an explosive years for the Phils.— onthebucks
- Sounds a lot like what was said about Thome to me. The "clubhouse guy" thing is a bit overrated in my opinion and it only works if the clubhouse guy is playing good baseball.
I think an offensive rebound is well withing the realm of rational hope. It's starting him in the field every day that I think will be a mistake and you can bet this is what we'll see with Manuel. Young is revered in Texas and the fan noise about his defensive drop-off at third base started around 2009/2010. In 2011 and 2012 he only played the field a little over 50% of the time and third base only made up about 20% of his starts. He may have a good head and something to prove but he still has a 36 year old body when you put him out there at third base. The right thing to do would be to pick and choose when he starts and where he's used, not to pencil him every day at third base now.— s - "Camelot" had a great run on Pattison Avenue for five seasons, but these trades represent the posting of a closing notice. This team is done.— andrewfrombrooklyn
- Now if we can convince Manual to platoon Howard and get rid of his 100 batting average against lefthanders.— farley
- WAR, what is it good for? You know according to WAR Aaron Hill and Aramis Ramirez are better then Josh Hamilton, Prince Fielder, and Albert Pujols? What BS. Young will be fine this year, will get a ton of big hits. I say 80 RBI's, and he continues to rake lefties as his career averages say. Solid pick up for 6 million.— E*Rock
- I hate when people and writer's use WAR as a crutch. They don't have to look at it more deeply. That said I think it's a flyer type of move which is meant to be a potential bridge to Cody Asche and Kevin Frandsen, Freddy Galvis who is a big risk if he's suspended again and few choices in the free agent market. A 3b with good WAR these days is going to be expensive to trade for.
I definitely think there's potential for a pretty good player and a floor of Greg Dobbs at 3b.— rc1000
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The Phillies Zone is the place for up-to-the-minute Phillies coverage from the Inquirer.
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