On Halladay's usage
Full disclaimer: We like high pitch counts here at Phillies Zone. We think there are spots when they are warranted and situations where they are not. We think there are some pitchers who can handle it and some who cannot. We don't think 100 should be the magic number. In every instance, caution should always be a thought out process. Roy Halladay threw 132 pitches on a cold, wet Tuesday night in May. It was the most any pitcher has thrown in the majors this season. It was one shy of Halladay's career-high of 133 pitches, done June 2, 2009. In his last four starts, Roy Halladay has averaged 122.5 pitches. For the first time in his career, he has thrown at least 115 pitches or more in four straight starts. And it's not even June yet. We can't pass judgment because we just don't know. Roy Halladay is a freak. He is unlike any pitcher in the majors right now. With four complete games in 2010, he has more than any other single team does. He has 25 complete games in the last three seasons and has led the majors each year. But... It's not even June yet. Charlie Manuel said he did not go out with the intention of pulling Halladay. He has said earlier in the season Halladay has different rules than most any other pitcher. But when his ace gets over 120 pitches, Manuel said he becomes concerned. He wanted to check on Halladay. He told him he was fine. Afterward, Halladay was asked if he ever told a manager he wasn't fine. "Not that I can remember," Halladay said. Twice before, Halladay threw 115 pitches or more in three consecutive games. From Aug. 29 to Sept. 10, 2007, Halladay averaged 124.3 pitches per game. He lost one and had a no decision in the other two starts. After that stretch, he made his final three starts of the season and won two of them. From April 26 to May 6, 2009, Halladay averaged 117.7 pitches per game. He won all four starts. After that stretch, he won his next two starts and didn't lose until June 29. He made 32 starts in 2009. But Halladay has always been known for high pitch counts. Last season, he threw 100 pitches or more in 17 straight starts from July 4 to Sept. 30. He has thrown 100 pitches or more in all eight of his starts as a Phillie, which ties the second-longest streak of his career. He's done it four other times. Another reason why Halladay is unlike any other pitcher: He tracks and charts every pitch he throws. Every single one. And this includes his side bullpen sessions and his spring training work. He's done it ever since he was demoted to single A in 2000. So Halladay said he doesn't worry about the high pitch counts early in 2010. "I've learned you make the adjustments on your work days in between," Halladay said. "That's where you adjust for how many pitches you throw. If you throw more, you cut down on your bullpen. I've always felt that I can regulate how I feel every five days as long as I'm smart about my work days." Is that a challenge? "No," Halladay said. "You have to know your body. You have to know when you need to step back. I think that's most important. You can't always go out and do the same things in between. You have to adjust for how you're feeling and how things went before. "In the next couple days I'll see how I feel and if I need to back off a bullpen or something, I'll do it. But you just have to listen to your body." We'll see. That's all we can say at this point. The Phillies signed Halladay to pitch key games in October. He's never had to do that in his career. Does that mean he needs to change his regimen somewhere along the way to be prepared for the playoffs? And he's 33 years old. What worked before may not work anymore. But Halladay is as prepared as they come. That much we do know.
On Halladay's usage
Matt Gelb, Inquirer Staff Writer
Full disclaimer: We like high pitch counts here at Phillies Zone. We think there are spots when they are warranted and situations where they are not. We think there are some pitchers who can handle it and some who cannot. We don't think 100 should be the magic number. In every instance, caution should always be a thought out process.
Roy Halladay threw 132 pitches on a cold, wet Tuesday night in May. It was the most any pitcher has thrown in the majors this season. It was one shy of Halladay's career-high of 133 pitches, done June 2, 2009.
In his last four starts, Roy Halladay has averaged 122.5 pitches. For the first time in his career, he has thrown at least 115 pitches or more in four straight starts.
And it's not even June yet.
We can't pass judgment because we just don't know. Roy Halladay is a freak. He is unlike any pitcher in the majors right now. With four complete games in 2010, he has more than any other single team does. He has 25 complete games in the last three seasons and has led the majors each year.
But...
It's not even June yet.
Charlie Manuel said he did not go out with the intention of pulling Halladay. He has said earlier in the season Halladay has different rules than most any other pitcher. But when his ace gets over 120 pitches, Manuel said he becomes concerned. He wanted to check on Halladay. He told him he was fine.
Afterward, Halladay was asked if he ever told a manager he wasn't fine.
"Not that I can remember," Halladay said.
Twice before, Halladay threw 115 pitches or more in three consecutive games.
From Aug. 29 to Sept. 10, 2007, Halladay averaged 124.3 pitches per game. He lost one and had a no decision in the other two starts. After that stretch, he made his final three starts of the season and won two of them.
From April 26 to May 6, 2009, Halladay averaged 117.7 pitches per game. He won all four starts. After that stretch, he won his next two starts and didn't lose until June 29. He made 32 starts in 2009.
But Halladay has always been known for high pitch counts. Last season, he threw 100 pitches or more in 17 straight starts from July 4 to Sept. 30.
He has thrown 100 pitches or more in all eight of his starts as a Phillie, which ties the second-longest streak of his career. He's done it four other times.
Another reason why Halladay is unlike any other pitcher: He tracks and charts every pitch he throws. Every single one. And this includes his side bullpen sessions and his spring training work. He's done it ever since he was demoted to single A in 2000.
So Halladay said he doesn't worry about the high pitch counts early in 2010.
"I've learned you make the adjustments on your work days in between," Halladay said. "That's where you adjust for how many pitches you throw. If you throw more, you cut down on your bullpen. I've always felt that I can regulate how I feel every five days as long as I'm smart about my work days."
Is that a challenge?
"No," Halladay said. "You have to know your body. You have to know when you need to step back. I think that's most important. You can't always go out and do the same things in between. You have to adjust for how you're feeling and how things went before.
"In the next couple days I'll see how I feel and if I need to back off a bullpen or something, I'll do it. But you just have to listen to your body."
We'll see. That's all we can say at this point. The Phillies signed Halladay to pitch key games in October. He's never had to do that in his career. Does that mean he needs to change his regimen somewhere along the way to be prepared for the playoffs?
And he's 33 years old. What worked before may not work anymore.
But Halladay is as prepared as they come. That much we do know.
Comment removed.
Absolutely not. This guy is out of the Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan mold of the seventies and eighties. He keeps himself in great condition and knows how to prepare himself for each game. He could pitch over 300 innings and still be strong in the post season. He is a TRUE WORKHORSE at the highest level.— Lark1- Yes monitor his pitch count. Don't burn these pitchers out— Gold
- A generation ago nobody cared about pitch count. Steve Carlton threw 19 complete games in 1982 at age 37. He struck out 286 and walked 86. He threw 30 complete games in his unbelievable 1972 season. He faced over 1000 batters for 13 seasons. Figure out the number of pitches that arm threw. Doc is a big boy and I'm sure he knows how many pitches he can throw and that the manager is well aware of what Doc is capable of. Has baseball changed that much and is there that much difference between Carlton's stamina and Doc's stamina? Complete Game is NOT a dirty word, it just has become a psychological barrier. Now as for Hanley Ramirez...— AlanInFlorida
- So funny. I just had this conversation with a co-worker today. This is not 1968 and he is not Bob Gibson. Save this guy for when it counts, Charlie. You can lose to the Pirates or anyone else if you only score one run. I was quite shocked to see he threw over 130 pitches; that is crazy. Of course he doesn't want to come out; that is why we got him in the first place. Learn a lesson from this, please.— Scott B.
- Comment removed.
- on the other hand if you baby him and keep his pitch counts low it won't be comfortable to keep him in longer when the games get more important. Typical sky is falling philly. He's a big stud muffin that can handle it.— notch44
At the age of 42 (in 1963), Warren Spahn was 23-7 with 22 complete games and 259 innings. If Halladay is a freak, what did that make Spahn, who pitched almost 3,000 innings AFTER age 33? If Halladay truly is a throwback, he can handle it easily.- Charlie has fallen in love with Halladay and he'd better start treating him like a pitcher soon or this guy will be shot by July 4th! You pinch hit for the pitcher when it's 2-1, one on, one out, bottom of the 7th! You just do it! Even if Halladay shuts them down in the 8th and 9th, at that point you need to be thinking "score" .... otherwise, you just lose 2-1. Oh wait, we did lose 2-1! Thanks Charlie!— JBinPA
- I think Charlie is afraid to take him out.— Bobphxville
- pitch count is not overrated at all. I use to throw 95 and was the next big thing. I wasnt used to the workload brought on to me by my new club (Halladay and the Phillies). I wish they would have had more common sense in using me so often and in deep games. Best of luck to Mike Leake, Johnny Cueto, Edinson Volquez, and Aroldis Chapman. Love Mark Prior and Kerry Wood— PhilsFAN4ever
- One thing all you people who think pitch counts are a joke are forgetting. Everybody talks about Robin Roberts. He was a shell of himself the last 25-33% of his career. No big deal. He wasn't paid anything. Roy Halladay blows out his arm, his multi-million dollar contract is guaranteed. Worried about pitch counts now?— PhillieJoe
- BammBamm..You speak the truth.— PhillieJoe
- Charlie may indeed have different rules for Halladay, but his ace was noticeably upset when he was removed him for his start in Colorado ... I just hope Charlie is not intimidated by Halladay to remove him in the future because of said rules.— PhightinPhil
- Pitch counts HA HA HA what a joke!— Snoddy
- Lynnwood: You're right... they never score lots of runs a bunch of games in a row. I guess you didn't see the runs scored the last few games before last night: 7, 7, 1, 5, 9, 3, 9, 10, 4, 12. Let's see, that's 7 games out of 10 that they scored 5 or more runs. THEY NEVER SCORE!!! WAAAH! Also, for all you folks who think they should handle guys like they handled Robin Roberts, keep in mind that he was a losing, barely-average pitcher after his age 28 season. It's impossible to know if 300+ innings for 6 straight years hurt him, but it couldn't have helped.— pokey1228
- This comment pacement is a joke!!!!!!!— Lynnwood
- I knew it. Score 12 runs one night, then one the next. I saw it coming!!! These guys are so predictable. And then there was Franscico! When Howard gets three hits in a game....that's a blessing. It's wasted. Too bad.— Lynnwood
- are the phillies insane?!...leaving halladay in when it was obvious the hitters were taking the night off?!...i guess they learned nothing from what they did to cole hamels' arm two years ago...idiotic...btw amaro, cliff lee may be on the block in a month...do the right thing and bring him back— 1stamendment
- PHillies need him in Ocotober. These high pitch counts and 132 pitches could come back to haunt team. Charlie is not too bright, folks. Hallady should have come out in the seventh before that weak bunt attempt.— 76er
- See the ball. Hit the ball. Zach Duke is not Don Drysdale. Losing the killer instinct because you expect a shutout every fifth day is not acceptable.— Relocator
- Did Nolan Ryan or Steve Carlton pay attention to pitch counts. Let's see how this goes. I'm a believer too many of today's pitchers are babied with the pitch counts. Even though the Phils beat the Brewers 2 years ago CC pitch on 3 days rest for almost a month. If you got a horse you ride him. And if Halladay conditions himself to pitch so many innings it may benefit him come the playoffs.— ResponsibleAmerican
Mwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah....you guys are ridiculous. Don't hurt the poor boy waaaaahhhh waaaaaahhh! If we don't get to October, it means nothing. Just ENJOY the season!- Strandman - it has nothing to do with who he is, unless he is a machine there will always be wear and tear for pitchers that require rest and treatment. I wouldn't just dust it off like its nothing.— EaglesBleedMoney
i did NOT like the lineup Charlie sent out there last night. if Francisco's the best replacement for Raul at times we r in trouble. get rid of him & bring up Mayberry.— tfcino1- The Phillies should not treat Halladay like a new toy that you play with until it breaks. He has 12 years in the majors and 4 left with the Phillies, piling up innings and complete games means nothing if he is worn down in October.— DEC
- Comment removed.
- "This is hilarious. Everyone wants a "old school" pitcher that just pitches and doesn't worry about stupid things like pitch counts. The Phillies go out and get one and NOW everyone's worried about his pitch counts. Hilarious!" Agreed. Very ironic.— Lonny
- With the score on the losing side, Cholly should have taken him out. Pitch count was really high on a cold, wet night. Phils need to protect their investment so he can be used for what they brought him over for... October baseball... which, Halladay has never experienced. He was always shut down in September prior to his coming over to the Phillies.— TerryW
- This is funny. He is not Cole Hamels! He is not fragile and must be handled with care. This is what a real stud ace looks like folks. Enjoy it instead of worrying about every little thing.
- Comment removed.
- Someone needs to remind Charlie that Roy Halladay has NEVER pitched in the post-season!!! His seasons have always ended by October. He is not used to adding another month of big games to his arm. Don;t overuse him now and then also ask him to pitch a month longer than he has EVER pitched.— clunkerlane
- What didnt make sense was why in the bottom of the 7th, with Doc over 100 already, he let him bat with a man on first and one out? I know he tried to bunt him, but that was where he should have taken him out.....A complete game against the Pirates in May is not as important as bullets left in September— Alan Greenspan
BammBamm, exactly. When Robin Roberts came up he had only been pitching since he was a junior in college. That means he had about two years worth of wear and tear on his arm. Not much at all. These days, pitchers begin their careers when they are in their early teens or even sooner. By the time they get to professional ball their arms have a ton of work on them. And, yes, these guys now are gigantic investments. Halladay is making $60M over three years and he's a BARGAIN. They have to protect their investments.— John621- Pitch count or no pitch count, here is one thing to ponder. Every pitcher in the minor and major leagues has an "Ultimate" pitch count. Meaning their arm only has X amount of pitches during the entire life of their career. Some guys lose it very early and some pitch for 20 years. When millions of dollars are invested into players, you can see why pitch counts are so important. We all protect our assets when they are expensive (House, Car, etc). In the old days, pitchers didn't make millions so they were kind of expendable.— BammBamm
- I agree he is a work horse, I just dont want the dude hurt. Im a little cautious when it comes to high pitch counts, especially in games like last nights where he was losing the whole game...I think sometimes you need to suck it up and ask for the bull pin to come in a relieve you. Gotta be smart— traugdog420
- Halladay wasn't blown out of the game so why should he be taken out? If there was a guy in scoring position and 1 out, yeah send in a PH. But Cholly gave him every chance to win that game. The offense just failed him. As for Cholly giving the hook to the starters, well the starters did deserve it in the beginning of the season.— palmyra21
- Comment removed.
- ejc527 - You've got that right! 28 straight complete games. Just how many pitches did RR throw in each of those games? And he pitched every 4th day and sometimes in between. Halladay (with Charlie's help) is the only pitcher in MLB that comes even close to Robbie. Thanks, Charlie, for letting him pitch!— innc
- "This is hilarious. Everyone wants a "old school" pitcher that just pitches and doesn't worry about stupid things like pitch counts. The Phillies go out and get one and NOW everyone's worried about his pitch counts. Hilarious!" Agreed. Very ironic.— Jrod00
- Somewhere, Robin Roberts is laughing.— ejc527
- Clam down he's fine with or without a pitch count. Trust his arm its crazy.— sizaleo
- Situations like this still and always will confuse Charlie. Last 2 games he over pitched him. Its May dude!!!! Dont kill our Aces arm— FMBNG
- Pitch counts are overrated!!!— PSU DEJA BLUE
- This is hilarious. Everyone wants a "old school" pitcher that just pitches and doesn't worry about stupid things like pitch counts. The Phillies go out and get one and NOW everyone's worried about his pitch counts. Hilarious! But that's the way MLB has conditioned people now. Pitchers can't pitch more than 100 pitches or his arm will implode!
- I hope he shows Jamie Moyer the same respect tonight but I know better. Charlie needs to stop complaining that the starters don't go far enough into a game. He's the one who pulls them. Halladay should have been pulled for a pinch hitter since he was losing the whole game.— rolenfan
- Charlie is going to burn out his only solid pitcher by August. Won't be the first arm he has helped blow out.— mibrze
