More on Moyer, Burrell
The Phillies said it's about flexibility.
More on Moyer, Burrell
Todd Zolecki
The Phillies said it's about flexibility.
Ruben Amaro Jr. explained why the Phillies didn't offer salary arbitration to Jamie Moyer or Pat Burrell.
“First, we still have the ability to negotiate with both of them,” he said. “The fact that we didn’t choose to offer them arbitration really doesn’t have much to do with letting them go or not having a relationship with them anymore. We can still bring them back. But the problem with offering them arbitration is that, if in fact they were to accept arbitration, we would be locked into a number that would not give us the flexibility that we have to have to do some other things. Plus, it would delay the process of knowing what those numbers actually would be, possibly until February. So for us to be able to do our business and try to improve our club in other ways, it would kind of handcuff us because there would be some uncertainty with what we can do.”
The Phillies must feel they can bring back Moyer and/or Burrell at a more reasonable rate. Burrell made $14 million last season. Moyer made $7 million. Both would have received raises had they accepted and gone to arbitration. So what Amaro is saying is that if they had offered arbitration and both had accepted -- I believe Burrell would have accepted because he wouldn't have been able to make more than $14 million anywhere else next season -- that it could prevent them from pursuing other avenues to improve the club (i.e. signing a relief pitcher like Juan Cruz). Amaro is saying is that it didn't make sense to offer arbitration to Moyer and Burrell just becuase they could. They feel their money would be better spent by not spending so much on just two players, when they can potentially bring them back for less and spend money in more places in better ways.
I guess one thing I've learend covering baseball the past six seasons is that it's not how much you spend, it's how you spend it. Look at the Yankees and Mets. But in time we will see how these two decisions ultimatley paid off for the Phillies.
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Some of the players the Phillies have expressed interested in – Cruz, Derek Lowe, A.J. Burnett and Raul Ibanez – were offered arbitration from their respective teams. Because those players are classified as Type A free agents, the Phillies would forfeit a first-round pick to sign one of them.
“We certainly have to weigh our options,” Amaro said. “Obviously, when some of the big boys who were offered arbitration are going to make you lose a first-round pick, we have to at least weight it and consider it. That doesn’t necessarily mean we will shy away from it.”
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It's good to win the World Series.
A full postseason share for the Phillies is a cool $351,504.48. The Phillies awarded 45 full shares, 7.039 partial shares and 15 cash awards.
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What is Adam Eaton's future with the Phillies? Tenuous.
“He’s still part of the club at this particular time,” Amaro said. “If he’s in spring training he will be competing for one of the spots in our rotation. That said, he hasn’t proven to us that he’s a lock by any means. Frankly, we’ll have to see how things shape up as far as rotation is concerned. Some of it may depend on whether we have Jamie back or someone else.”
If Moyer returns, Kyle Kendrick, J.A. Happ, Carlos Carrasco and Drew Carpenter are expected to compete for the final spot in the rotation. If Eaton is in camp with the Phillies, he also will be competing for a spot in the rotation, but I think he would be a long shot.
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It sounds like any interest the Phillies have in free agent infielder Mark Loretta is faint. And I've been getting a few questions about Chicago White Sox outfielder Jermaine Dye, who would fit in nicely with the Phillies. But Dye has a limited no-trade clause and the Phillies are one of the teams he can't be traded to.
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John Gonzalez, Phil Sheridan and Ashley Fox talk about the chances for Moyer coming back.
Comments (45)
It's not just whether the Phillies could secure Burrell or Moyer at a lower number, but whether anyone else can. If another team would be willing to pay Burrell a higher salary to sign him than the Phillies would have had to pay in arbtitration than the Phillies should have offered it, and had he foolishly accepted arbitration, they should have traded him for something of value. The only way this makes sense is if Burrell ends up with a deal that he would have preferred arbitration to.— MattS
Comment removed.- Dae: A great post!! I agree. I think that we too often get carried away with the "fun" of the trade, and forget that new people aren't necessarily better players. If we can keep Pat at the same amount, or less then it would take to get one of these replacements, then we should. As you said, not one of then has the numbers, over time, that Pat does. Everyone also forgets that an offer doesn't mean he signs. Let's say the Angels offer hin 15 million (which they won't), he tells Rube what is on the table. Rube can then match, beat or wish him well. All that's happening is that the GMs are letting the market decide the salaries and not an outside panal of arbitrators. I bet on Pat being back— jeff gross
- Now I understand the Phillies thinking in not offering Burrell arbitration, because they don't know for sure his market value, which will be set for the arbitration hearing. (I thought they could offer him a contract, but that’s not the case apparently with veterans.) But they must have an idea. The Yankees think Abreu’s value could be $16 millions. His salary last year was the same as Burrell. Can Burrell be $15? Is he in the same category of Abreu? I don’t think so. (I, know, most of you guys don’t like Abreu because of his laidback attitude and defense, but he is a consistent .300 hitter with 30 HR potential and 100 rbi and 100 runs scores.) They don't want him back, period not even for one year. I believe he is going to get a 3 or 4 year contract with some team in the AL, now that he is more attractive because the team won't lose draft picks for signing him. Judging by Amaro’s comments, we can also say adios to signing Juan Cruz, Lowe, Burnett or any other Type A free agent offered arbitration. So, we are not getting picks for Burrell and we’re back to getting second hand players, alas Ed Wade, it seems.— EL Zorro
- The only thing that bothers me about this is Ruben saying whether Eaton has a shot at the rotation depends in part on whether Moyer returns. I don't think you can plug the hole that Moyer's absence would leave with someone like Eaton! Moyer is a proven 3-run-a-game, 6-inning pitcher who competes each time out, is reliable and a great mentor to boot. Eaton, unfortunately, hasn't worked out.— gbrettfan
- El Zorro, Abreu and Burrell are pretty much even as far as stats are concerned. Abreu hasn't hit 30 homers in a season for about 4-5 years now. Abreu had 15 three years ago when the phils traded him to the yanks and only had 20 last year. I do agree with you that Burrell won't be back unless he actually sees his market value and takes the hometown discount that is out there from the phils. As far as free agents are concerned would you call Jayson Werth, Greg Dobbs, Scott Eyre, and Jeff Jenkins top tier free agents that Gillick signed the past couple of years. I wouldn't. So don't say the second coming of Ed Wade is in the GM chair. Give Amaro some time. He has a really hard offseason to contend with (economy, 10+ arbitration eligible players to deal with). Believe me I would love to see Manny bashing homers at the Bank, and AJ and Lowe, solidifying the rotation, but realistically I know they are not coming here. Plus what fans have to realise is that players still don't want to come here to play because mostly of the fans. Winning the world series, and the front office not having a leash on spending like some other clubs (Tampa, Milwaulke), players are still not waiving the Phils of thier no trade list because of the fans. Players are mostly ego maniacs and when the fans tell them like it is, they don't want to hear it. That is why players don't want to play here because they are afraid of the truth being yelled at them all the time. Alas I wish all players were like Chase Utley.— engineeringagr8tdrive
- As has been said, the Phils, and Pat don't know his value this year on the market. The idea is to let the market decide. Then, based on what he is offered the Phillies will make their decision on whether to spend that amount for Pat or not. Same thing with Moyer. Think long term for a moment and you'll see how smart this is. Better to spend more money in locking up some of our young talent (Werth, Victorino, Hammel, Howard, Madson etc) then overspending for a one year rental of Pat. Every dollar offered in salary this year to one year players, is less money to be offered long term to the core of the team— jeff gross
- if they would have agreed to arbitration for burrell and he was benchmarked at $14mm it would have sent Howard's arbitration number skyrocketing. Right now they can argue that the $10 mm maybe $12mm is as much as howard should get because his average dropped another 30 points while delivering "only" the same numbers. Howard is going to ask for $15MM. If Burrell was out there with $14MM, then Howard would be asking for $18 or $20MM. Burrell was 250, 38, 90+; Howard was 250 48, 146. This is the domino effect that they're guarding against, not that Burrell might make 16, but it might also then cost them 20 for howard.— diehardphan
- Truth be told, through his actions, Charlie doesn't want Pat back. Let's be satisfied with Dobbs, and a righty who hits 300 consistantly. As for Moyer, bring him back for helping the young pitchers. For you bloggers; Keep your comments short if you want to be read & taken seriously.— wiseoldowl
- 3 nice options. 1. bring back pat. 2. dont bring back pat and sign manny. 3. dont bring back pat, dont sign manny, and wait it out until next year and sign holliday as a free agent. i'm in total agreement with a few of you that jermaine dye is a bum and no upgrade whatsoever. baldelli cant give you a full game and the other names are pretty much just laughable. if its not a serious upgrade go with what we've got.— davemarsh
- Wise old owl: That's all fine and good, excpet that Dobbs bats left. Seems your a not so wise old owl afterall— jeff gross
- Who got the .039 of a share?— Sully
- Sully, that's 7039 shares. (Seven Thousand Thirty Nine partial shares) its a coma and not a period. You should now have a second cup of coffee while putting your glasses on....LOL— jeff gross
- Sully: After firther checking I'll put on MY glasses now. You were right. They awarded a total of 7.039 shares. I am guessing that ball boys, equipmant mangers etc got partial shares adding up to a tolal of the 7+ Todd mentions.— jeff gross
- Hamels made $500,000 for the season, but another $351,000 for just the playoffs. Almost doubled his salary. Amazing.— J C
- jeffgross..are you kidding? 7039 shares at 351000 a share is 2 billion 450 million dollars...it is a period not a comma— COMMISH78
- I think they gave Eaton the .039 share. On second thought, that would be like $13,700. Nevermind, give the .039 share to Elvis (Burrell's dog). Elvis did more for this team than Eaton did.— J C
- Wiseoldowl has a damaged hooter.— mick314
- I'm pretty sure the players didn't award 7,039 shares, they would have had little time to play ball if they had that many shares to award. I think RUTH got the .39 share, probably at Ryan Howards behest...LOL.— jimmymack
- I vote try to keep Burrell, He's worth up to a 3 year deal at 10-11 m per year. If that's not enough we have to let him walk. Moyer would be nice to have back too, but at no more than a 2 year deal at 6 m per year.— jeffso
- COMMISH - you're right, it is a period, not a comma, but it was probably meant to be a comma. The 7.039 were *partial* shares awarded; the $351K is the amount of a *full share*. A partial share could be as little as a $20 bonus to Day-of-Game staff (security, ushers, concessionaires, ticket-takers, etc.). Knowing how the Phillies run their organization, and how well they treat their employees, it is likely they gave everyone a little something, so that is probably meant to be a comma and not a period.— RollinsWasRight
- RWR: as tehj person who originally thought that, i think I'm wrong. I think that a total of 7.039 total shares were handed out as partial shares. In other words, teh bat boy got 1/10 of a share, the equipment guy got 1/4 a share so together they received 7/20 of a share. Overall the Phils handed out about 2.5 million in partial shares. Zo, wanna jump in and tell us who is right here?— jeff gross
- jeff gross wrote, "Better to spend more money in locking up some of our young talent (Werth, Victorino, Hammel, Howard, Madson etc) then overspending for a one year rental of Pat. Every dollar offered in salary this year to one year players, is less money to be offered long term to the core of the team." I think this is exactly what Amaro is trying to say. I think if the Phillies had the choice between bringing back Burrell at $16 million for one season or potentially locking up Madson or Werth past 2009, they would take Madson or Werth.
- Thanks for the commant Todd. Any help on the puncuation question we're having? Is it a coma or a period? 7.039 shares or 7,039 shares?? HELP— jeff gross
- It's 7.039 shares.
- is there any way we can see a partial list of the payouts to certain people connected to team?— jeff gross
- is there any way we can see a partial list of the payouts to certain people connected to team?— jeff gross
- You know, it's great being the defending champs, and I apologize in advance if I am being greedy or a malcontent or something to that effect, but speaking just as your average, run-of-the-mill baseball fan, I am really getting BORED WITH THIS OFF-SEASON! Not just from a Phillies persepctive, but no one is doing anything. I know most off-season movement happens during or shortly following the winter meetings, but usually SOMETHING has happened by now. Good grief. Anyone else? Oh wait, I forgot, "Glass Joe" Mike Hampton got a one-year, incentive laden deal. EXCITING STUFF! WOO HOO!!— RollinsWasRight
- Following the previous threads on why we didn't offer arbitration to any of our FA's, here is a take on it from Buster Olney at ESPN.com: "A month ago, the notion of Abreu as a $16 million player didn't seem so outrageous. In the current climate, however, executives with other teams believe Abreu might be fortunate to make $8 million. It appears that no other team will offer Abreu anything close to what he would make in arbitration with the Yankees. So the Yankees could no longer justify gambling an arbitration offer to Abreu for the sake of draft picks. It isn't that the Yankees don't have money. But the perceived value of players is plummeting rapidly within the industry, and just like investors who are waiting to see when the bottom of the stock market is really bottom -- the Dow Jones didn't hit bottom at 10,000, nor at 9,000, apparently -- teams are waiting to see how far the salaries will fall." I think this not only answers your complaint RWR, but explains the Rube's thinking this year as well— jeff gross
- I'm expecting the MLPA to file a collusion lawsuit against the owners anytime soon like the one they won in 1985 or 86. A 50% pay cut for a guy who almost hit .300 (.297 actually) with 20 HRs, 100 RBI and 100 runs is way too much. In arbitration teams are allowed to offer only a 15% pay cut, I believe. This whole thing hasn’t happened since the 60’s when owners used to slash the players salaries whenever they wanted, including the biggest stars.— EL Zorro
- It's not just Rube's thinking with only 24 FAs tendered arbitration, it's the collective thinking of the industry. Some of these greedy players like Howard may be wishing they locked up their $100 million dollar deals last year cause there may not be anymore of them for years to come....the economy and the sport will not be able to support them in the current climate. Just like it may take 10 years for my IRA to recover all it's losses in this Market, it may take player salaries 10 years to recover to their previously dizzying heights.....— Mark1npt
- I was referring to Buster Olney's comment on Abreu, who made $16 millions last year but now could only get $8 mil according to the report. Just in case.— EL Zorro
- So, if Abreu is going to get only $8 mil according to the GMs Olney spoke to, how much money is Burrell is going to get? He made $14 and his numbers are not comparable to Abreu's like someone suggested. I posted the numbers in another post, but somehow they keep rejecting it. These are Abreu’s career averages based on 162 games: .300 BA, 106 R, 175 H, 98 RBI, 29 SB, 104 BB, .405 OBP and .498 SLG. He has stolen 30 or more bases 5 times, including 40 one year, has seven 100 rbi seasons and six .300 seasons. Pat’s career avg.: .257 BA, 81 R, 145 H, 103 RBI, 97 BB, 1 SB, .367 OBP and .485 SLG. His career high in RBI is 117, Abreu’s 123 and Abreu is not considered a power guy. Burrell has only two 100 RBI seasons, Abreu 7, including last year. Bobby has eight 100 R seasons (also including last year), Burrell never. In other words you can say he beats Burrell in his game, SLG and RBI, and bases on b*lls for that matter, and crushes him in his game, hitting, on-base percentage, stolen bases and scoring runs— EL Zorro
- Pat will get at most $8-10 milion a year for 2-3 years. This is why the phils didn't offer Arbitration. They can sing him for 8-10 instead of 12-16. That's 4 -8 million to spend elsewhere. The Players will lose any lawsuit due to teh ecconomy. Its a free market. It's not that owners have decided not to sign FAs, but they are letting the market decide and not a pannel of arbitrators. Not a bad time for teh Phils to offer Howard, hammels Victorino long term deals. The players also see what is going on. We can probably get Howard for $15 a year for 8 years today, hammel for 6-10 million for 5 years, etc. Bargains if you think about it— jeff gross
- I don't think is that simple, Jeff. The players have a CBA with the owners and there are specific language about fair treatment. If some GMs are already talking to some reporter about teams not offering this player this money, I see that as a elaborated plan. Remember this is a industry that made almost 7 billion a year and they are thinking about cutting players salaries in half. I now they players make a lot of money, but that's the business they are in.— EL Zorro
- It will be interesting to see if you are right Jeff. You are correct it would be an excellent time to sign Howard or Hamels if they are willing, the days of the big money are over and the collusion argument will not hold weight I agree. The numbers listed Howard 8/15 Hamels 5/6-7 are realistic. If I were the Phils I would publicly throw them out there if an accord can not be reached and let the numbers speak for themselves......I really do not get the Moyer arguement other teams always seem to find a young(cheap) gun to get them 12-16 wins while trying to prove themslves, I would certainly go that route. As I stated earlier I love Ibanez lefty or not to take Pats place he is a five tooler and also relatively cheap and would probably love to get out of seattle and on to a winning franchise at a discount.....— Truth
- And jeff, I totally understand why the off-season is developing so slowly, but understanding it doesn't make it any less boring. Just complaining really, but just because I get it, doesn't mean I have to like it. I really need to start watching the Fly-guys again. Somehow I have fallen so out of touch with the boys in Orange and Black, even though I love hockey almost as much as baseball. Stupid World Series hangover. Nothing but my Phils is good enough anymore. :)— RollinsWasRight
- I still see the Phillies as shy in entering any arbitrations with the surprise they got with Howard. They are playing their cards close to their chest, and they are prepared to part with both Jamie and Pat. I don't see the flexibility in so much as they are not rewarding two stand up players that don't make a lot of noise and do a lot of good for the community. Moyer has earned the possible last year of a nice payday with the season last year, he's given even Cole Hamels a run for his money for best pitcher last year. The Phillies have in effect said, 'check' in this poker game, and now it is up to Moyer and Burrell to prove their worth to another team. The fact is this team is filled with great players, if former center fielder, Aaron Rowand got 60 million for 5 years then Burrell can get that much, I would figure. He's a better player and a lifetime Phillie and that is perhaps working against him in the free market. The Phillies are looking to cheapen up the team and Amaro talks more like he's an owner than just a GM, a GM who is so frugal after a world series win just isn't getting high marks from me. Look at the moves the GM from LA made last year, it almost paid off with a World Series win, he got Torre, Maddox, and Manny all in one season now that is a GM in my book!— phillywebcast
- I think we're seeing a baseball off-season that is very similar to what happens after the NFL draft. The big names, Sabathia and Texiera, are going to have to sign and set the market. After that, we'll have a "slotting" of sorts with players falling in line, based on what the big names get. You can get signed right now if you're a free agent but I think you'll have to agree to terms that are pretty club-freindly (see Mike Hampton's deal). I think the dam is going to burst in the next week or so, players don't want to end up overplaying their hand like Kyle Loshe did last year (it worked out for him, it may not for everyone else). P.S.- I don't know if you heard, but the Phillies won the world series— KMG
- Personally, I think the Phils made a good move in not offering arbitration to either player. Like Ruben said, this doesn't mean the team cannot negotiate with either player, it just means they will not be told what they have to pay. Smart move. If Moyer really wants to play in Philly and the Phils really want Moyer, it will get done. But nobody in their right mind will pay Jamie what he would have received in arbitration. Say all you want about how Moyer's stats were similar to Derek Lowe's...the odds of Jamie duplicating those stats are much worse than Lowe duplicating his stats. As much as I love Jamie, he is 45, and there is nothing that lasts forever. As for Burrell, I agree that he is not worth what he would have made in arbitration. Plus, I think the Phils have to make improvements in their offense...higher average, less strikeouts, better avg with RISP, higher avg with runners on base and two out, better job moving runners and getting them home without the benefit of a hit (or homerun.) I know we're all still excited about the Phils' WS win, but let's not forget the many offensive struggles this team had throughout the regular season, as well as in the post-season. Just because we won the WS does not mean these problems magically went away. No question, the Phils MUST improve the consistency of their offense.— MrPhillie
- I see where Dustin Pedroia...AL MVP Dustin Pedroia...just signed a 6-yr $40 million deal. He understands he left money on the table by not going to arbitration year-to-year, but he is happy in Boston, knows they're a winner, and would rather have the security playing for a team he loves than getting extra dollars via the year-to-year Ryan Howard model. Let's see, Pedroia was ROY, MVP, Silver Slugger, and Gold Glove winner, and WS Champion so far in his young career, fans love him and he gives his all every play, every game. Now let's look at Ryan Howard. He was ROY, MVP, Silver Slugger, WS Champion.(oops, no gold glove), fans generally kiss his feet, and he gives his all much of the time. Pedroia agreed to a contract worth $7 mill/yr. Obviously he could have done better, but sometimes it's not all about money. I think he understands, as Chase Utley does, that $7 million is still a pretty nice wage and he is fortunate to be able to live the life he is living. In this respect, I wish Ryan was more like that. If the Red Sox MVP can sign a deal like he did, why can't Howard sign a deal for even $10-15 mill/year? In my opinion, if the Phils thought for a minute that Howard would agree to a deal like that, they would have offered it to him last year. Unfortunately, Ryan believes he is a $20-25 million per year player and until the money is right, he will go the year-at-a-time route. But in the end, this may be best for the Phillies because at his size and the holes in his swing, he may only have another 2-3 years of peak performance.— MrPhillie
- ::bows down to MrPhillie:: I cannot argue with anything in either of those two posts. Well said, MrPhillie.— RollinsWasRight
- According to a report on Boston.com, the Phillies are one of two teams to have made an offer to Derek Lowe. Nice to see they aren't banking entirely on Moyer, and are not determined to fill out the rotation with the Adam Eatons and Jon Liebers of the world, as has been the case in the past.— RollinsWasRight
- McPhillie gets it. The most important piece missing from the Phils is offensive consitency. This reuires a hitter who is more like Utley then he is like Howard. He needs to get on base, anyway he can, knock in the runs Howard didn't, and protect him from being pitched around. I'd look for 25-30 HR, .285-.300 ave, 85+ RBI. In other words, we are going to have a hard time finding him.— jeff gross
- I can't recall any prior champion in any American sport that faced so few roster decisions as do the Phillies. Even the two in question Burrell and Moyer, would most likely take a few dollars less to stay and play for the Phillies. One: Burrell, because it is the only team he has ever known; Two: Moyers, because he is a true Philly area kid all grown up: and Three: because they both just won a world title and no matter where else they may go or however much money they can make elsewhere, they both know it can never be better for them than it is right now, right here. Winning is the trump card. They have both played a long time and I would imagine have accumulated a lot of capital so happiness and continuation is worth taking a little less. My only question is whether or not they really want to keep Burrell and are not just saying they do to appease the fans until they can sign a Ibanez or somebody else. Ibanez makes good baseball sense but the move would be unpopular. No one on the team has been as fiercely loyal to the Phillies as Burrell has. Remember last year he refused to be bought out and moved. So what makes anyone think he wants to move now?— Barton
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