Looking for the Big Four
Jimmy Rollins, Chase Utley, Ryan Howard and Pat Burrell are key to the Phillies offense. They simply haven't done the job the past 10 weeks.
Looking for the Big Four
Todd Zolecki
Jamie Moyer allowed two runs - one earned - and five hits in 6 2/3 innings against the Nationals, and lost again because of poor run support. (JERRY LODRIGUSS / Inquirer Staff Photographer)
The Phillies offense is Jimmy Rollins, Chase Utley, Ryan Howard and Pat Burrell.
That's not to disparage other players in the lineup like Shane Victorino, Jayson Werth and Chris Coste. It's just that those four are the MVPs, the all-stars, the big money men.
They're the reason the Phillies have led the league in scoring each of the previous two seasons.
But the Big Four hasn't produced in months, which is why the Phillies have fallen 2 1/2 games behind the New York Mets in the National League East -- their largest deficit in the standings since April 23.
Here's a look at how the Big Four have performed since the team's notorious 20-2 victory over the St. Louis Cardinals at Busch Stadium on June 13:
Jimmy Rollins
Through June 13: .278 (50 for 180) with five homers and 22 RBIs.
Since June 13: .248 (59 for 238) with three homers and 20 RBIs.
In August: .211 (16 for 76) with two RBIs.
Chase Utley
Through June 13: .317 (83 for 262) with 22 homers and 61 RBIs.
Since June 13: .248 (54 for 218) with eight homers and 23 RBIs.
In August: .243 (17 for 70) with three homers and nine RBIs.
Ryan Howard
Through June 13: .212 (54 for 255) with 17 homers and 54 RBIs.
Since June 13: .248 (56 for 226) with 16 homers and 50 RBIs.
In August: .164 (11 for 67) with three homers and nine RBIs.
Pat Burrell
Through June 13: .284 (62 for 218) with 17 homers and 43 RBIs.
Since June 13: .240 (48 for 200) with 12 homers and 27 RBIs.
In August: .167 (10 for 60) with three homers and six RBIs.
Coincidental or not, Rollins is hitting .091 (3 for 33) since he called Phillies fans front-runners in Los Angeles on Aug. 13. Howard is hitting .086 (3 for 25) since Aug. 11. Burrell is hitting .149 (7 for 47) since Aug. 5. Utley is hitting .214 (6 for 28) since Aug. 12.
If not for Victorino and Werth and a few others stepping up with the occasional big hit, the Phillies would be further back.
“We’re definitely capable of hitting,” Charlie Manuel said after last night's 4-3 loss to the Nationals. “We’ve hit for the last three and a half years. We have a lot of the same guys. I know they can hit, but I can’t exactly tell you when we’re going to get going.”
Time is running out. If they don't start hitting, this could get ugly fast.
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In the Phillies Notebook: the Phillies have a ridiculously tough schedule coming up. They play 20 of their next 23 games against the Dodgers, Mets, Cubs, Brewers and Marlins. The Phillies also don't think they'll be getting any bench help before the end of the season.
Comments (76)
It is utterly amazing that basically the entire team went in the tank at the same time. All Phillies players have blame but certainly the bulk of it lies with the "stars" of the team. Just as you wouldn't expect the 4th and 5th SP's to carry you through the playoffs, you cannot expect the Phillies supporting cast to carry you through a season. There is a reason the stars are paid so much money...to produce, and this year has been pathetic. Looking at the stats Todd mentions, it is crazy how long this team has been awful. But what might be more amazing is the fact that for two months Charlie continues to throw the same lineup out there. My goodness, how long must a player stink before he is benched? At least for a few games? Does it take a baseball genius to see that Howard is way overmatched against virtually any lefthander? The fact that he continued to use this lineup for so long speaks volumes about how bad his bench is and how little we have in the farm system. Every member of the Phillies offense, especially the "stars", should give back part of their paychecks because they have done little to earn that money. Donate it charity or offer to apply it to getting a good, clutch hitter for next year...or both.— MrPhillie
These numbers just backup what many of us have been saying on this blog for weeks (months?). Sure, it's great to see Victorino, Werth, etc. come though in a pinch. But time and time again over the past few weeks, we've seen the game come down to the big four, and more times than not they have failed to come through. Chase had a good night tonight (at the plate, not in the field), but Howard looked horrible and Burrell same deal. I said this in a previous post, but I have to wonder if some of these guys have bailed on the season at this point. I hate to think like that, but it's hard to know what to think at this point.— bobby- Phils have Victorino, the tying run at 2nd base no outs.. The best we could do is Bruntlett,Ruiz,Coste.. I know the big guns are having down years,but thats when you need the others to step up. We can't get rid of the stars but those (3)guys shouldn't even be in the league.. As Homer Pyle once said "shame,shame,shame,shame,shame". You hear that Gillick ?— pat h
- Pat: Not saying that I disagree with you, but the Bruntlett move tonight made no sense. Yes, it was Pedro's first game back, but if he can play, he should play the entire game, and his defense is one of his most valuable attributes. Bruntlett should not have been in this game, or many others this year. I like Charlie a lot, especially as a leader, but he is a terrible decision maker. Perhaps it's time for him to go...— maximusud
- Man, how great is Jamie Moyer? Battling like this at 45... It's a shame this effort went to waste.— NJLouis66
- Cholly had to PH Dobbs for Feliz in his spot and it worked with the RBI knocked in to tie the game....a no brainer and the right one....having said that, this team has sucked and still sucks....and with the exception of a few players is not worth cheering for. There are either many hurt players, playing hurt and being quiet about their injuries or there's a heck of a lot more wrong in that clubhouse than any of us have been told.....maybe we're just seeing more of the old choke in the clutch Phils? Maybe they can't be front runners? Maybe they haven't learned anything about winning or how to win the last few years? Maybe they just realized part of their soul was torn out when management refused to retain Rowand, or get Harden, or Sabbathia, or Manny or....?— Mark1npt
- I don't understand how someone making $8MM and $10MM can perform in the manner they're performing and have the attitudes they have. Utley deserves an earful as well, but the last two games he looks like he's regained his stroke. Why Rollins is still lead off instead of victorino and why Mendoza hasn't been demoted 1-2 spots in the lineup is beyond my comprehension. Finally, why isn't Blanton being sent to the bullpen to be a fire thrower and JA Happ being put in to the lineup down the stretch. All the earlier comments have legs but the reality is that these guys need to play to their capabilities. Howard at 10 MM, Utley at 12/15MM, Burrell and Rollins at $8MM each (maybe more for burrell). They should be delivering results - forget about manny or harden or sabbathia - how about they put their money where their mouths are and just play. Rowand was clearly the heart and soul of the team. The only one who truly knew how to lead.— diehardphan
- They've stunk way before the trade deadline, and Rowand hasn't worked any magic in the San Fran clubhouse. They are simply playing awful. the question is, if this continues and they finsih out of the race, what do you do next year? Does Pat get a new contract? With Rollins, Utley, and Howard all hovering near 30, is it time to break up the core?— RG
- there aren't any bona fide players on the giants. Charlie is a terrible game coach. bruntlett should have bunted last night (one of 25 bad decisions a year or more)— diehardphan
- Howard isn't part of any core. like one of the posts said, it's foolish to have him in the lineup against any lefty. Rollins is a career 265/270 hitter and doesn't want to be a lead off guy. If he's in the lineup bat him 5th/6th. we should have finished the holliday/fuentes deal, but it would have cost us happ. break up the core (meaning get rid of howard, entertain rollins trades since he's bailed on the city, and as for pat the bat - I have nothing but respect for how he's conducted himself the last full year, but he's not a 4 hole or 5 hole hitter.— diehardphan
- and sadly, we might have won a world championship if we had selected Leyland as the manager instead of Manuel. That's the one thing I'll really take with me from this 4-8 year stretch - if only we had Leyland and all this bs wasn't tolerated and good game decisions were made. We would have won the division every year as Charlie wouldn't have made the game decisions and I think it's worth 12 games a year.— diehardphan
- Charlie made horrible decisions last night and it was not the right move to pull Feliz. If he's healthy he should be playing he would've gotten the sac fly in that spot no question. I agree with the rest of the comments here that the lineup should be broken up and the big 4 need to produce period. Getting rid of the core is not the answer if we have any chance of winning anything. Replacing Burrell with a hit for average OF and replacing Manuel & Thompson will be good starts— DaFranchise
- Ummm, whats Leyland did with an ultra talented, high payrolled team in Detroit? As for the Giants, if that is true, than why did Rowand go there? Just the money? what kind of leadership is that, leaving a first place team for a last place one?— RG
- Ryan Howard is like a Little League player - either he whiffs or hits a bomb into the woods. Nothing in between. Striking out (again) with Victorino on 2nd and nobody out last night then followed by Burrell's double play grounder did it for me - these guys are done. Trade Howard in the off season - we'll miss his entertaining HRs, but you win in MLB by getting clutch hits (look at the BoSox) not just by hitting mammoth HRs. The Mets suddenly can't lose - they are coming through in the clutch...the Phils want to blame the fans for their woes..now they won't even face the media when they stink up the joint. Sad times. Season over. Move on to football.— steelman#1
- Sorry..I think Werth was on 2nd with no out in the eighth, not Victorino..Charlie changes the lineup out of desperation so often, it's difficult to remember the batting order night after night.— steelman#1
- Sorry to say this, but this team will never make the playoffs. They are not a playoff team. They can't sweep the Nats, while the Mets are taking care of business against the Braves. I can't remember the last time Howard did anything! The pitching is not the problem either. Why can't they have good pitching and good hitting in the SAME year!— ronin32
- RG, Leyland took Detroit to the world series without all the "superstars". Getting a broken down dontrelle willis and a broken down gary sheffield isn't really good stuff and they were down their entire bullpen stock for over half the season this year. rodney and zumaya in the back of that bullpen and they have 10-15 games of improvement. As for Rowand, the phils didn't put together the right package. The fact he left and got paid, is what it is. He didn't "owe" philly anything. He came here in a trade and he played his heart out (even running into a chain link fence. They had an opportunity and didn't capitalize. Finally, (and not directed at our exchange) how about Kyle Lohse... - thought I heard a collective ugh when everyone read this part. 3 yrs and 21 mm he says no to doing, but when we could sign him for $4.2mm we say "we're going in a different direction"??? we were right. we're leaving the playoffs and falling apart in the clubhouse with posers like rollins and howard.— diehardphan
- 2009 Phillies Lineup Jimmy Rollins ss Shane Victorino cf Chase Utley 2b Ryan Howard 1B Jayson Werth RF Geoff Jenkins LF Pedro Feliz 3B Carlos Ruiz c Another championship caliber team.— jrquixote
- Howard - 29 years old and hits .180 or worse against lefties and he's in our clean up spot. Send howard west where they don't boo and they don't stick around to the end. let him experience them showing up in 2nd or 3rd inning and leaving before 7th inning stretch to go to a club or late dinner. He wants to not be held accountable..., send him to SD. And goodness gracious, wouldn't it be nice for all of us if we could have a manager like scioscia who teaches his team how to play the game right.— diehardphan
- What about Cabrera for Detroit? Renteria? These were all the big moves Phils fans moaned about, and Leyland couldn't manage them into the playoffs. As for injuries, how quick we forget how Manuel dealt with them last year. Utley and Hamels both down a month. Howard out for 2 weeks. Gordon down, followed by Myers. Two RFs injured in the same game (Vic and Bourn). Madson out. Can't use injuries as an excuse for Leyland. An Manuel took the Indians to the World Series. As for Rowand, he did owe me anything, a stupid GM decided to pay him superstar money for 15 HRs and 80 RBIs. He's losing speed and will be corner OF soon, which will make it worse.— RG
- I don't believe that pulling Feliz was the wrong move at all. What has he done in the clutch this year? The guy is another strikeout machine in a strikeout-laden lineup. Hitting Dobbs was the right move, IMO. No one expects Bruntlett to botch plays at third. His AB in the 9th was horrendous, however. Tying run at second, less than two outs, in the 8th AND 9th innings, and you cannot get him home either time. Inexcusable. What I am wondering is what has happened to Jimmy Rollins? Not focusing on his numbers, or his comments, but just his personality... What happened to that infectious attitude everyone fell in love with, the million dollar smile, the on-field energy, and the dugout horseplay? Wasn't the guy given a ton of credit last year for keeping the team "loose"? This team looks like nothing, if not extremely tight, to me.— RollinsWasRight
- You might say I am crazy for saying this but I want your opinions.. Howard up in the bottom of the 8th, no outs man on first and second down by one. It most cases you let Howard try to hit one out of the park. But against the picter Howard was 0 for 6 with 5 strike outs. Before last night. Knowing these stats what about a bunt?— Beef69
- I find the whole "blow up the core" mentality fascinating. This is still a solid core. They need a few tweaks, most notably a reputable hitting coach that can actually coach hitting, and a middle-of-the-lineup run producer who doesn't strike out a lot. Those two things alone would make a palpable difference in consistency of the lineup. I get the desire to trade Ryan Howard... not sure I agree, but I don't think anyone can argue that at any point prior to this season, his value in trade was far greater than his value on the field, due mostly to the strikeouts, his lack of committment to plate discipline, and his eroding defense. I still think the biggest issue for this team is the attitude of Jimmy Rollins. Anyone else notice that Pat Burrell looked like he wanted to choke slam Jimmy last night after Jimmy bobbled that ball? I found it fascinating... I didn't think Jimmy had a shot at Anderson Hernandez at first anyway, but the look on Burrell's face was UGLY, as he stood in LF with his hands on his hips glaring at Jimmy Rollins. It may be that there is a divide in that locker room, and that the MVP has alienated some of his teammates with his attitude overhaul from last season. Maybe we'll get lucky... maybe Burrell will stuff Jimmy in a locker, and Charlie won't be able to find him for a few days. Jimmy needs to be benched until he puts J-Roll to sleep, and rediscovers Jimmy Rollins.— RollinsWasRight
- Beef, I seriously thought about that. Not about bunting Howard, but about pinch hitting Taguchi, and having him bunt the runners over. With Werth on second and Utley on first, both very good baserunners, it is unlikely they would be able to force either one of them. The problem was that Charlie didn't really have anyone else left who could play first in the ninth. Feliz and Dobbs were out of the game, Bruntlett was at third. Unless you brought in Coste to play first. I do think it is way past time to stop treating Howard like he is special, and start treating him like any other player. If he doesn't hit lefties, then he shouldn't be hitting in a big spot against a lefty in the late innings. Losing his defensive presence in a close game late wouldn't hurt either. But he hasn't been a special player in two years, time to stop giving him special treatment.— RollinsWasRight
- RG, Good points all of them. Just one last thing, then I have to hit the road. Rowand's presence is in the clubhouse. I would have been fine with him in RF this year and vic in CF and burrell in left - and I would be fine with that for a few years with burrell unfortunately then gone and werth in his place. leadership is the key - and Rollins is a distraction, not a motivator this year.— diehardphan
- The question is no longer WHERE IS CHASE UTLEY-its become WERE CHASE UTLEY'S EARLY CAREER NUMBERS A MIRAGE?— Truth
- Thanks for an honest appraisal of the Phils Todd. I have been trying to make this point for a month. A championship team just can’t succeed on the bottom of the order. Period! Sure they can bail you out some of the time but the guys you depend on to put the runs up there on the board are the top five hitters. It would not be unusual to see one or two players having problems at the plate, but when your whole offense is having a problem then something is up. A big league hitter who can time a 93 mph fast ball can also time an 80 mph breaking pitch. He just can’t drive it as far. As for good pitching taking its toll, yeah pitchers can get in certain players heads and have constant success against them but a whole team, all the time and from every club. I don’t think so. If you change the focus and back up a bit say over 3 ½ years you see a club with tremendous potential becoming a bust. There is something wrong and we’re not hearing about.— Wally 24
- Did anyone see the look on Jimmy Rollins face last night before he batted in the ninth. When the camera focused on him in the on deck circle he had a disinterested scowl on his face like he didn't even want to play for this team anymore. I think he's one of the best SS in baseball but he is killing this team with his attitude. I've never seen a team like this! How can a team with such a prolific offense struggle for so long when they are getting very good pitching? It just is pathetic. I don't really have a solution. Only the Phillies could go from being one of the best (if not THE best) offensive teams in baseball to one of the worst. You can't trade all these players. I expect after what is happening that Burrell won't be back next year and how can you blame him? I think perhaps it's time for a new manager and a new coaching staff (although Dubee can't be blamed for any of this). It probably won't help but what else can you do? The Phillies GREAT legacy continues. They are the worst team in the history of baseball! I'm sick of it.— James TL
- Truth, c'mon now. Utley has the most consistent career numbers of the big four. Howard has declined the past two years, and Rollins started off iffy, climbed, and is now dropping. I can't explain Burrell.— RG
- Vic should have stole home. He is doing everything for this team. Bruntlett should get another job. With his SAT scores, he's more qualified anywhere off the field.— eagles11
- The implosion is upon YOU-I said this would come back in February when they chose not to pay Howard, when they sold YOU a bill of goods with Myers a a premier starting pitcher, when they let Rowand leave, when they signed scrubs like Jenkins and Bruntlett, when they counted on Eaton again. The writing was on the wall only I saw it now miraculously YOU all seem to be reading!!!!— Truth
- When the organization mistreats one player they mistreat all!!!!— Truth
- Everyone has expended way too much effort on the whys and wherefores of this crazy season analyzing players only. Where is Milt Thompson ? I admire Charlie Manual very much ; but , it's frustrating listening only to "...I don't know why ... or ... I think we'll start hitting soon..." Those of us who follow this team closely can see the Howard hips turning toward first base prior to contact and the Werth left leg backing out against righties and the tough to watch Burrell lack of confidence at the plate these days. These guys are pros ; but , they still need to be coached when things go awry. Wait and see just isn't going to cut it. As always , though , I'm confident they will approach this tough schedule over the next 20 games as a challenge , because it's most assuredly do or die now.— phan
- Great analysis Truth, you basically said Howard has so little pride in his game that $10 mil isn't enough to motivate him. And that Aaron Rowand moving to the Giants was a good decision for him. Meanwhile Werth alone has outhomered him. Myers is back and pitching fine, and they repalced Eaton. Yet you will still not place one ounce of blame on Howard or Rollins' play. Amazing.— RG
- Truth, you truly aggravate the heck out of me. So I've made up my mind that the only thing I can do, is hope and pray that you'll someday have a moment of sanity in your dark and dreary life. Utley is having a down season and he's still better than anyone on the team.... TRUE THAT !— pat h
- Pat h: They replaced Eaton with Cory Lidle be truthful. Utley is better in what statistical category, that matters, than who on team? RG: What blame does Howard deserve he is doing his job(Rbi's and Hr's) just fine. If you want to say he belongs in the AL fine but he is doing what he is supposed to do. Rollins has been hurt all year once again be truthful with yourself. WHAT HAPPENED TO CHASE UTLEY aka THE GOLDEN BOY?— Truth
- Any chance we can trade J-Roll for Jimmy Rollins? Because what this team needs most right now is the re-emergence of Jimmy Rollins, ad to be rid of the imposter who has been wearing #11 all season.— RollinsWasRight
- I believe that by the end of the season some valuable lessons will be learned by some of the players on this team. Chase Utley is now taking pitches to the opposite field, and if he continues that practice it will serve him well in the future. Coste, Ruiz, Dobbs, & Werth are discovering that they can be a difference for the team at the plate. Howard and Rollins, riding the top of the MVP wave, are now finding out what it is like at the bottom. Humiliation can be a good motivator. Our young pitchers have all improved and the experiences from this season (having to win with little run support) will help them next year. A good investment for the team would be to get Victorino instructions from Tony Gwynn in the off season. He's got all the tools to be a great leadoff hitter. When Burrell goes we will have room for a corner outfielder. That would be a great time to get that solid .300 hitter we are lacking. Bruntlett & Jenkins have been a bust offensively. Why not give Bohn and a worthy infielder from the minors a shot in September to see who gets invited to Spring Training.— Wally 24
- Wally, where are they going to get a .300 hitting LF, who can also bat in the middle of the lineup and drive in runs? There aern't many of them, and there are no LFs of consequence available as free agents this offseason. Do you have any faith in this team's ability to make a decent trade, other than fleecing Ed Wade? (Now, there's an idea... How about trading for Carlos Lee? He fits the bill perfectly...)— RollinsWasRight
- Time for us to put the negativity behind us for the next five weeks, boys and girls. The personnel issues can be discussed in the offseason. Deserved or not, we're 2 1/2 games out of a playoff spot with 5 weeks to play. We need to get behind this team, starting today. The booing needs to end and the negative comments on this blog, the radio, etc. need to end. I can't make the game tonight but everyone that does should be on their feet CHEERING in the first inning. I'm not trying to be logical, I'm a fan and logic has nothing to do with that. I believe fans can make a difference and put this team into the playoffs. GO PHILS!!!!!!— KMG
- Time for us to put the negativity behind us for the next five weeks, boys and girls. The personnel issues can be discussed in the offseason. Deserved or not, we're 2 1/2 games out of a playoff spot with 5 weeks to play. We need to get behind this team, starting today. The booing needs to end and the negative comments on this blog, the radio, etc. need to end. I can't make the game tonight but everyone that does should be on their feet CHEERING in the first inning. I'm not trying to be logical, I'm a fan and logic has nothing to do with that. I believe fans can make a difference and put this team into the playoffs. GO PHILS!!!!!!— KMG
- RollinsWasRight, I don't agree with blowing up the core either. That being said, something has got to give. I don't know that there is a DESIRE to trade Ryan Howard, just an acceptance of the fact that we may have no choice. If Howard is still looking for an 8yr $150+million Cabrera-like deal, he will not be here much longer. If the Phils have no intention of signing him to a deal like that, then trading him is the way to go, and sooner (like this off season) is better because he still has 2 arbitration years left which should increase his value.......Also, with the loss of Burrell we will certainly need an outfielder, but not necessarily a left fielder. Since Victorino could play right and Werth could play left, we can look to acquire any quality outfielder.— bski
- RG, Rowand went to SF simply because of the long term contract. Going there has nothing to do with his leadership qualities. Sometimes you have to do things for your family...— phigglesfan75
- Fundementals is all we are talking about. The Nats bunted with first and second no outs, but the Phils didn't because Oh my God why should the grat Ryan Howard bunt. But if he did they probably walk Burrell and Victorino gets his seeing eye single like he did in the ninth and the game is over with us scoring two runs. Little things like that and NO clutch hiitting (SEE ROLLINS THE INNING BEFORE THAT) is killing some great great pitching efforts. No bench is also killing them/.— Trot
- KMG, you are right. Next year is a long way off, and we've got the entire off season to delve into those issues. For now, it's time to focus all our energy on these last 35 games.(and hopefully beyond)— bski
- Truth, you always use numbers when they are in your favor. If you know anything about sports, you'll realize nubers often lie. Real baseball people will tell you the same. There's no one on this team even close to Utley. The moment you pick a bat, even in little league, the worst thing a baseball player at bat can do is KKKKKKKK. Truth, that means strike out...Baseball 101..I do believe they offer that course on line..I'll pay your tuition...— pat h
- bski: There are some who want to trade Howard simply because they don't like him, which I disagree with. If you want to trade him because you know you cannot sign him, then he needs to restore his value first. He actually has 3 arbitration years left, but with his declining production, his value will not increase much, and if his demands keep rising proportionally, the Phillies will start winning those cases, which may be a good thing... that should make a point to Howard that he is no longer worth what he once was, and if he wants that huge deal, he must make more of an effort to improve his all-around game. My concern with letting Burrell walk is that the free agent market for any outfielder is really thin this year. LF there is Manny, who, let's face it, won't be a Phillie, there's Adam Dunn, who would only exacerbate the issues in the lineup, and then there's a bunch of guys who are not better than Burrell. In center, there's Rocco Baldelli, who is always injured, Mike Cameron and Corey Patterson, and that's about it. In right, there's Griffey, and Brad Wilkerson, and that's about it. A new OF via free agency really just is not an option this off-season. What would be great is if they moved Victorino back to right, left him batting 6th, and traded for Willy Taveras of Colorado to bat 2nd, or, if Jimmy is struggling, hit leadoff. That would solve a lot of your On-Base issues with the big hitters coming up. But the middle of the lineup still needs to develop substantially more plate discipline, which Milt Thompson has clearly not been able to teach.— RollinsWasRight
- Here's an idea for tonight's game; a wild, crazy, drastic idea that they should consider, in a desperate attempt to jump-start the offense...............................................................................................................................................................................................................ready?............................................................................................................................................................................................................wait for it..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................SWING AT THE PITCHES IN THE STRIKE ZONE, TAKE THE PITCHES OUT OF THE STRIKE ZONE.— RollinsWasRight
- Pat H-the worse thing a hitter can do is hit into a double play-be truthful.— Truth
- Free agency is not the only avenue for this club to take care of its problems. Trades during the off season can be very benifical to both clubs involved. We just need to be willing to deal and I'm not talking about giving away the farm. Money helps too but with the owners group the way thay are I wouldn't count on that, which bring us to Burrell. Does anyone actually believe he will settle for less money then what he is currently making? If they won't pay Howard what he is worth then why in Gods name would they pay Pat. I say trade him & maybe a pitcher for another contact type hitter like Ludwick who hits for average and dingers. Then move Howard down to 5th Utley to 2nd where he hits for average, Rollins to 6th, Victorino to 1st and Werth to 3rd and play him in LF. Seperating Howard & Utley forces the opposition to make multiple pitching changes late in the game.— Wally 24
- One guy on here suggested everyone show up tonight and just CHEER. Great idea, but make sure you bring your pom-poms, Barney dolls and wear a pink schunchee. That should fix everything. Aint free speech grand ?? YEA— mick314
- I am tired of watching the opposing teams bring in a left-hander to pitch only to Utley and Howard (also tired of watching Howard wave at pitches out of the strike zone). Why not move Burrell up to #4 and drop Howard to #5. That way at least the lefty would have to face at least one right handed hitter.— darryam
- RollinsWasRight...I'm with you. That's the difficult spot we are in with Howard. Most likely, in order for us to keep him, his production will have to stay down so that he'd be willing, or have no other choice but, to accept a lesser deal, because if his performance improves, he will price himself out of here. The duration of the deal is the bigger issue for me over the dollars per year. I would rather overpay in dollars on a shorter term deal, because it is most unlikely that we would get a consistent, high level of production for the duration of a long contract. The same goes for Burrell. I would love to see him stay, but I have to imagine someone is going to make him a better offer, either in years or dollars or both. I was thinking more along the lines of a trade rather than free agency to get a replacement for Burrell. I guess I wasn't to clear on that. That's where I was going with the Howard business. That is, if we determine that trading him is the best (or only) route, we could fill a need (a replacement for Burrell being just one of several) that way.— bski
- Wally24: The Phils won't pay Howard what he's worth? How much is Howard worth exactly? Do you think he is worth the 8yr $150+million contract he is seeking?— bski
- bski if you are talking about Howard's ability to put up good enough numbers with 30 some games left it ain't happening. He's already in the hole as far as using this season as a bargining chip and I don't care if he hits 40 + home runs. He's gonna break his own strike out record with a much lower BA and more errors than anytime in his carrer. If last springs arbitration was tough on him wait till the next one. We'll get to see what he's made of then.— Wally 24
- bski! I never said they wouldn't pay Howard what he was worth. I said that unless Burrell was willing to play for less he will be going free agent!— Wally 24
- Wally24: Sorry if I misread your post. When you said, "If they won't pay Howard what he is worth then why in Gods name would they pay Pat.", I took that to mean you feel that Howard is underpaid. As far as Burrell, like I said before, I'd love to see him stay. I would rather overpay in dollars per year and do short term deals. Unfortunately a lot of guys want and get long term deals along with the money. I think Burrell, at this stage in his career, will certainly be looking for years. I expect that Howard, considering he is entering his prime earning years a bit on the old side, is most likely figuring this is his one shot at a mega-contract, and is looking for years as well. We offered Rowand a 3 year deal, but he took a 5 year deal with the Giants. Santana got an 8 year deal with the Mets. Sabathia will be looking for an 8 year deal. Teixiera wants a 10 year deal. Yes the money is a big deal, but I still think that the bigger issue for the Phils regarding these deals is the years.— bski
- mick314- it wasn't "some guy" who said everyone should show up tonight and cheer, it was me. I said it because we're coming down the homestretch, the Phils are struggling but not out of it and need every bit of help they can get, starting with those of us that support the team. Fans can make a difference, I firmly believe the Phils would not have won the division last year without the amazing fan support in September. Let's start the next run TONIGHT. GO PHILS!!!!!— KMG
- KMG: I kind of agree with you. Not only did the fans turn out last year, but the atmosphere at the ballpark was electric. I still keep waiting to see a game this year at which the crowd creates a playoff atmosphere. Everyone seems to be waiting for the Phillies to give them a reason to cheer, rather than cheering for what they WANT to see happen, like we all were last year. It is a bit depressing.— RollinsWasRight
- Wally: You and I are looking at this from the exact opposite perspectives. You are convinced Burrell won't be here next year unless the Phillies break the bank for him (which we all know they won't do for anybody). I am convinced that Burrell will be back unless the Phillies absolutely low-ball him. If they make an offer even remotely competitive with whatever else he gets on the market, I believe he will take less to stay in Philly. He has indicated several times that the only teams he would play for other than the Phillies are the Red Sox and the Yankees, neither of which will be in the market for a LF or a DH.— RollinsWasRight
- RollinsWasRight...I hope you are correct regarding Burrell. It would be nice to have one less area we need to address in the off season.— bski
- Rollinswasright - I just think that once the agent gets involved and other teams start making offers the Phils will never compete with them. Remember they have a self imposed salary cap. If you watch how other teams pitch to Pat you know they respect his bat and that makes him valuable as a free agent. Also Hamels is still an issue, along with the big Question "What are they going to do about Eaton, Jenkins, Taguchi, & Bruntlett." I think its the bad decissions they have made that keeps them in a position where they can't compete and they really are cheap. I would like to see Burrell stay here because even when he is having the worst of times he was always a professional.— Wally 24
- Wally: Somehow I missed your post at 3:23pm. I am not talking about Howard putting up better numbers and increasing his value this year. I am talking about him improving and putting up better numbers before he becomes a free agent. He still has a couple arbitration years left, so he has time to turn himself around and put up numbers closer to what he did he did in his first 2+ seasons. If he does, his asking price, in dollars and years, will climb and he will be beyond our range to keep him.— bski
- bski -- I think alot of people would agree with you on the money vs. the years. I'd like to add a thought here. During the Paul Owens years ownership knew baseball because it was a family business. They paid players what they were worth because they really did understand each ones value tom the team. They also added incentives clauses to give certain players motivation to play above the level of the preceding year. I think that approach is a good one for some of our under performing stars.— Wally 24
- I'm hoping Chase, at least, is making a turn around. He's gotten two hits in each of the last two games. And both to the opposite field last night. But except for his rbi single last night, they didn't account for any runs. Besides his supposed hip *injury*, I'm wondering if he's feeling the pressure of getting on base because J.Roll (and whoever happens to be hitting 2nd) isn't. Of course, they need someone besides Howard and Burrell behind him if they ever expect him to score.— Norma
- Well folks, it looks as though the Phils have given me a birthday present by not only winning tonight's game, but actually getting double-digit hits! This is the offense we know & love. I hope, I hope that it's finally the turn-around they need. As did you notice that Victorino gave Coste a shaving cream pie in the face during the post-game interview? He hasn't done that in a long, long time! That could also be a good sign!— KarenA
- Way to go team, let's slap the dodgers around again tomorrow! GO PHILS (and happy birthday, KarenA)!— KMG
- Well Charlie finally figured it out. He split up Utley and Howard which is the best thing he could have done for the top of the order. We actually had some productivity from the top of the order. Kendrick pitched well enough to earn the win and we stayed away from Ramirez which is the only way to handle him. If Hamels goes out there and challenges him tomorrow we will pay for it. We had 4 hits (2 HRs) 4 Ks, & 1 walk from the top 5 tonight. Not great but its a start. The bottom of the order were just great. What a heads up play by Dobbs, dropping a bunt for a hit, in the 5th. Dobbs, Werth, Jenkins, and Coste combined for 6 hits (1 HR), one walk & 0 K's. Coste and Ruiz deserve a lot of credit for their contributions. I know Howard hit a homer but he is still flying open on just about every swing. here's an idea Ryan. CLOSE THE STANCE TO KEEP THE FRONT SIDE CLOSED LONGER. The argument that he is getting jammed is ridiculous when he's hitting just .169 in Aug.— Wally 24
- HAPPY BIRTHDAY, KAREN! Great game tonight! Perfect combination of "small ball" and "long ball". Chase & Ryan with only one hit each, but they were good ones! Too bad J.Roll coudn't have gotten on base for Chase. Something I noticed tonight.....Ryan leaning back more than usual at the plate. During his *outs*. But I guess that's what you meant by "closing his stance", Wally 24.— Norma
- Forgot to mention....How funny were those scoreboard pics of the players! LOL!— Norma
- Manual's decisions in the 4-3 loss cost the Phils another game. He always depletes his bench by the eighth inning. Feliz more than likely would have fielded both ground balls that Bruntlett botched. If Rollins doesn't want to play, get him off the field. Utley dives for a ground ball that Rollins bails on. If Rollins left his heart in San Francisco,(Oakland) then send him there. Get him out of the lineup. Move Howard down in the lineup. Bench him against lefties. Stand Pat Gillick still has time to spend some money and pick up a waivered bat on the wire, fire manual, and save the season. I look look back to the Phils comeback against the Mets, and remember that Jimy Williams made all the moves in that comeback. The time is now!— coachbruce
- 2nite is the true test, because they face a tough pitcher! If they can manage to score 4-5 off this starter, then they may be on to something. If not, it could be a looooong final month to this season! And just to be fair...J-roll,Utley,Howard and Burrell STINK!!!! No reason to play favorites..LOL GO PHILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!— Clinton, NJ
- RollinsWasRight & Wally: I just found this on mlbtraderumors.com. It ties into our discussion. Check it out: "With Ryan Howard looking at maybe a $14MM salary in his second year of arbitration, the Phillies could shop him this winter. Rosenthal lays out a scenario where they trade Howard and use some of those young players to acquire Matt Holliday. In this scenario Pat Burrell could be re-signed to play first base. I was surprised to see that a club official sees the chances of retaining Burrell as better than 50-50."........How about that?— bski
- I found another interesting tidbit. This is a quote from Cole Hamels. Yahoo sports has a baseball blog called Big League Stew. There is a weekly Q & A session called "Answer Man". Cole was interviewed yesterday....."Q: You took a lot of flak about what you said after your contract was renewed for $500,000. How did you handle all that? CH: Immaturely. It was a lack of experience, not knowing when to keep your mouth quiet and just go about your business. But, if I never would have said it, I probably never would have learned the lesson and it probably would have bitten me further down the line and got me in some trouble. Sometimes, you are human, and everybody has that situation where you want to get that raise and it's hard to go up and confront your boss -- or else you're going to get walked-all-over (in negotiations). I do understand the situation a lot better. I'm just going to go out and play the game I love, because if it was taken away from me, I don't know how I'd be able to handle my life. I talked to mentors -- other players -- my wife, my parents. Basically people who've lived longer than I have who said to just let it go. There will be a time to stick up for yourself. That wasn't it."......Nice to hear that change in perspective.— bski
- I am no surprise at all the Phillies want to resign Burrell. He is having a good season, doesn't complain, is a good clubhouse guy and wants to stay in Philly, which means he won't be asking a lot of money. I like the trade for Holliday, but I don't know if is doable. I would like the Phillies to get a leadoff hitter (an outfielder is the best option if we cannot resign Burrell) and move Jimmy somewhere in the lineup, to the 2, 5 or 6 hole.— EL Zorro
- I'm not surprised the Phils want to re-sign Pat, either. For all the reasons you mentioned, El Zorro. My guess is, if he starts hitting again, he's a shoo-in. Of course that's a pretty big "if".— Norma
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The Phillies Zone is the place for up-to-the-minute Phillies coverage from the Inquirer.
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