A good deal for Phillies WITH UPDATES ON CHAPMAN, HAPP
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A good deal for Phillies WITH UPDATES ON CHAPMAN, HAPP
Andy Martino
UPDATE, 8:45pm
Here's where we are as of Tuesday evening: A press conference officially introducing Roy Halladay as the newest Phillie will likely occur tomorrow at Citizens Bank Park, according to a source with direct knowledge of the team's plans.
The event could still, however, be delayed another day if medical reviews are not completed for all players involved in the deal. For coverage of the day's unfolding events, see below.
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The Halladay/Lee deal is "very unlikely" to be made official today, according to a person familiar with the talks. An official announcement could very well come tomorrow. The process could still accelerate and lead to an announcement later today.
There has been some unrest in my inbox this morning about reports of this trade. The widely reported deal is a good one for the Phillies, but your concerns are understandable. Reports varied yesterday evening, but the framework has now come into focus as pretty much this:
Phillies get: Roy Halladay from Toronto, 20-year-old righthander Phillippe Aumont form Seattle, 21-year-old righty J.C. Ramirez from Seattle, and 21-year-old outfielder Tyson Gillies from Seattle.
Toronto gets: Righty Kyle Drabek, outfielder Michael Taylor, catcher Travis d’Arnaud.
Seattle gets: Cliff Lee
This could still change up until the moment it is announced.
Let’s run through some of the reservations and questions:
Why did it have to be Cliff Lee?
The Phillies at first tried to move Joe Blanton’s approximately $7 million salary, but that apparently did not go anywhere. It would have been very difficult to find a team to take on that money and trade decent prospects for Blanton.
That left the Phils with the option of trading Lee. The lefty will make $9 million in 2010, and the team expected he would become a free agent after the season. Lee’s agent told us yesterday that wasn’t necessarily true. But even if he did sign an extension, it would have been for significantly more money than the Phils are reportedly giving Halladay.
According to ESPN, Halladay will make $15.75 million next season, and $60 million for the next three years. That’s an unbelieveable bargain, and the best part about it is the length; you’re not locking this guy up until he’s over-the-hill (he’s 32 now). Lee’s buddy CC Sabathia got seven years, $161 million last winter, by comparison. More money, more years. And Lee might look for something like that in 11 months.
The idea that Lee and Halladay could be part of the same rotation next year was never realistic. The Phils maintained they did not have the room in their payroll. That room might have been created by trading Blanton, but they couldn’t.
And while Lee was spectacular in the World Series, Roy Halladay is a better pitcher. Look it up.
But we thought Drabek was untouchable…
Baseball America projects Drabek as a potential no. 2 or no. 3 starter. He has already undergone Tommy John surgery, and the team shut him down this summer for precautionary reasons. Keep in mind that most highly-touted pitchers do not become stars. It is difficult to imagine that he will be comparable in any way to Halladay over the next four years.
Also, this is much easier for the Phils to absorb, because they are receiving a highly-touted pitcher. Aumont is a former no. 1 draft pick, and he struck out Kevin Youkilis and Curtis Granderson while pitching for Team Canada in last March’s World Baseball Classic.
Ramirez is raw. He was 8-10 with a 5.12 ERA last season, but his perceived potential led Baseball America to rank him as the no.5 prospect in the Mariners’ system.
Will either Aumont or Ramirez become major league stars? Not likely. It is never likely that pitching prospects will become solid major leaguers. But they do help ease the hit to the farm system caused by this trade.
Someone told us that that Michael Taylor was going to be an All-Star…
Michael Taylor seems like a very smart, very grounded person, and we wish him the best. And he may well enjoy a productive career. But baseball people like Domonic Brown much more. The Phils kept Brown out of this deal, a negotiating victory.
Gillies, by the way, played in the Futures Game last year, a showcase for top minor league talent.
It’s not just that they gave up Lee, Drabek, Taylor, d’Arnaud. They gave up Marson, Carrasco, et. al….
Don’t let Ruben Amaro fool you when he says he gave up a lot for Lee last summer. I will be surprised if any one of Lou Marson, Carlos Carrasco, Jason Donald and Jason Knapp ever makes an All-Star team. The Indians needed to shed payroll last summer, and took a package of lesser prospects for their ace.
Look, two things that fans love are postseason performers and top prospects. That’s what people get excited about, and connect to emotionally. Very reasonable. But I believe that this move makes it more likely that the Phils will enjoy several more World Series appearances. It makes them a bit better next year, and much, much better in 2011, 2012 and 2013.
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Here's an add-on after getting some more emails: You're right, this trade as currently constructed is not technically a three-team trade. The Phils are reportedly acquiring Halladay from Toronto for prospects, while also trading Lee to Seattle for prospects. But the issue of payroll is still central to this, and prospects are also important. After giving up some of their top youngsters to get Halladay, the Phils wanted to replenish their system. So they got highly-regarded guys from Seattle.
Also, though multiple reports have Halladay and the Phils agreeing on the extension, an official announcement still does not appear likely until tomorrow. Lots of moving parts here, and medical records to be exchanged.
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The Phils have made the signing of Ross Gload official. Gload passed his physical today. The 33-year-old lefthanded bench player essentially replaces Matt Stairs. He led the major leagues with 21 pinch-hits last year, and tied for the major league lead with 15 pinch hit RBIs.
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Also, the Phillies ended up sending two scouts to see Cuban prospect Aroldis Chapman throw in Houston today, according to a team source. But they are not believed to have serious interest in pursuing the pitcher.
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Another update for you: Contrary to a report, J.A. Happ did not take a physical yesterday, and has not done so recently or in connection with any trade, team source says.
Comments (272)
One day I hope to live in a world where a beat writer might possibly criticize the team he covers. The return on Cliff Lee is just awful, you have to get Triunfel or Saunders or Morrow if you are going to trade with the Mariners. I'd appreciate Ruben never calling Jack Z again.— Either/Or- I still fail to see the reason why Drabek is essential to the deal - why can't Toronto just take Seattle's minor leaguers, with either Taylor or d’Arnaud? Drabek was to be the team's answer at #5 by mid-season; now we've got to rely on Moyers/Kendrick and pray they don't fail every fifth day.— bdm155
come on, andy. I'm unimpressed with these prospects. Aumont was converted into a reliever, and Ramirez has been unimpressive in last two years of minor league ball. Gillies looks OK, but what happens when he gets into AA ball? Drabek would have hit the rotation by July and would have remained there. We are losing a staple (Oh, and Tommy John Surgery extends careers - ever watch the 'Real Sports' report about Kids gettign them done early? Se how Randy Wolf's still got a career in baseball?) I don't believe we're getting the right value for a projected starter this year in Drabek.— dpcoz- Andy, can you clarify your last sentence? I get that Doc makes them better, but how does it make them "much, much better in 2011, 2012, and 2013?" Werth is a free agent after 2010, Ibanez after 2011, and not sure about Howard, Rollins, Victorino, etc...— chrismaroldo
- Trade is a good one. Most of the haters out there will be changing thier tune come the all-star break when the Phillies once again have a very comfortable lead in the division.— ESFjellin
- I'm ok witrh Halladay for Lee - understand why 100% and I'm in favor. Just don't agree with the prospect swap - Drabek is a starter by July - and by then we're going to need him to replace either Kendrik or Moyer.— dpcoz
I hate this deal - it's certainly NOT a good deal for the Phillies. This deal is actually a smokescreen. The Phillies are no better now than they were during the 2009 postseason (unless Hamels improves). When do the Phillies work on improving? If they don't, they'll just lose in the World Series again.— sdgeiger- Thank you, Andy. If you thought this deal was a bad one, you'd say it. I appreciate your insight. In any case, you've got to admire Amaro's aggressiveness. I love to see the Phillies wheeling and dealing and playing with big boys and acting like an elite franchise.— wooderice
- This is a pointless trade. You substitute one ace for another, lose several prospects...and for what exactly? A right-handed starter? I don't care how Halladay and Lee's stats compare...Lee was sensational last year. What I want to know is this...would Halladay have pitched as well as Lee pitched, in the playoffs and World Series? You cannot answer that, because you don't know. With Lee we know. This isn't an improvement. Sitting still is better than this.— m8roth
- I think this deal makes a lot of sense, and it's a very nice breakdown...thanks Andy. Why keep Lee this next year with no chance of extending him? Some say they traded Lee for Lee. Well they did, but for a better Lee and one that didn't mind taking a discount to play where he wants to play. The one thing that still NEEDS to be done is to find someone for the back end of the bullpen, because otherwise we have a solid rotation, but are in the same situation as last year...good starting pitching with no one to turn the ball over to with confidence— trk3586
- I still have my reservations, but it appears that the Phillies have removed a lot of old bullpen pitchers with the prospect of getting some live young arms to fill in the blanks. We still have a big question mark in the number 5 hole, but who says the dealing is over? For those who don't like the trade, would you like it better if Lee bailed after next season, maybe to the Yankees, and his spot in the rotation was taken by Kyle Drabek? I don't think so. For a kid to have Tommy John surgery before he even makes it to the majors raises big questions.— Carmine
- If Aumont projects similarly to Drabek, the deal is reasonable, if Halladay signs for 3 more years at 60 million. But now, within 2 years either Brown needs to develop or we need to resign Werth.— Boethius
- Exactly sdgeiger. We can keep arguing over whether Lee woulda signed long term and for how much, how good these prospects will all be, etc. but truth is we don't know. I love Doc and think he is definitely more a sure thing than Lee but this is the real issue.....The goal in the playoffs is to win it all, ie find ways to improve on last season's run. Regardless of whether or not he can duplicate last year, Lee gave you wins every game he started. Yanks just added Grandy for essentially nothing to their ML roster. So if you go back and replace Cliff with Roy, at best, things stay unchanged. Therefore, you're still banking on Hamels and Lidge turnarounds and this deal itself doesn't really bring you any closer to the Yankees.— Funboy
- chrismaroldo- it makes them much better in 2011, 12 and 13 because they will have an ace that they wouldnt have had if they let Lee walk. Even if they did manage to extend Lee (at market value), the reported discount Halladay offered frees up a couple mill/yr to sign a werth/victorino or other FA's. Not a sexy move by Rube, but a very good one.
- All these chess moves and the Phils are still short on starting pitching unless they are planning on reupping Pedro or Jamie drinks from the fountain of youth or Dubee finally developes Kendrick. They have no starting pitching prospects in the minor league system now unless you count Andrew Carpenter and his 88 mph fastball and hanging curve. In several of the games I watched Domonic Brown play in last year his fielding left much to be desired, poor routes, running into the centerfielder, misjudging fly balls. His .229 batting average in the Arizona Fall League was not much comfort either.— Dull
- Andy, your argument is that it's a good deal because none of the 7 prospects will be good major leaguers? Seems like the odds are against you there. My problem with this incarnation of the trade is our return for Lee. It's worse than what Cleveland got for him! Something here still isn't right.— sla6yer
- I like the Phils getting Halladay, but I don't like them sacrificing Lee unnecessarily. Why don't the Phils just give Toronto the players it has been asking for all along - Drabek, Taylor and D'Arnaud, in exchange for Halladay, and keep Lee for another year? That would give the Phils the strongest 1-2 pitching in baseball and give the Phils another year to try resigning Lee. As it stands, the Phils and Toronto are making the trade they talked about last sesason, and the Phils are trading Lee to Seattle for 2 minor league pitchers - Phillippe Aumont (right-hander, 1-4 with a 5.09 ERA in Class AA) and Juan Ramirez (right-hander, 8-12 with a 5.12 ERA in Class A), and one minor league outfielder - Tyson Gillies (bats left, hit .341 in Class A). If this deal goes through as is, the Phils will have traded their once-heralded farm system for one pitcher (Halladay), a reserve outfielder (Francisco) and three Class A - AA prospects. In less than a year, the Phils will have traded away the cream of its minor league system - Drabek, Carrasco, Knapp, Marson, D'Arnaud, Taylor and Donald, in its hunt for an improved pitching rotation. A Halladay win doesn't count more than a Lee win. The Phils couldn't win the world series with only one dominant pitcher, and just replacing one ace with another may not be enough. A house cleaning that gave the Phils Halladay and Lee, even for only one year, may have had some merit. Sacrificing Lee, as well as the farm, for Halladay makes no sense. I understand that there are financial considerations to fielding a major league baseball team, but if the Phils are to compete with the Yankees, they're going to have to start thinking like and spending the Yankees. Winning a world series is the dream of every player. Maybe the Phils front office needs to have a sitdown with some players and start restructuring a few contracts.
- we r getting seattles top 2 pitching prospects— GetMeToThePlateBoys
Comment removed.- There's are a lot of practical considerations I can get my head around in this even-up swap of aces, but since wasn't it just this past July that Drabek's name and projected talent was attached to Tom Seaver rather than Jerry Koosman? When did he drop to a projected #2 or #3 starter. If that's all he's expected to be, I'm fine with this move - provided that I hear no more whining from the Phils about maintaining their $140 million payroll. If they then turn around and dump Blanton, this deal shows little respect to those of us who pack into Citizens Bank Park and snap up t-shirts and jerseys of our favorite Phils.— frankenslade
Thanks Andy. This column was better for my nerves than the cocktail of numerous antidepressants I took after reading the articles from late last evening on this trade. Now if they'd just land one more stud for the bullpen they can start the presses rolling on 2010 Series tickets.- Comment removed.
- Jamie Moyer. 8 freakin million $.
- Ace for Ace Maybe? But now you have an Ace for four Years vs. an Ace for 1 year. I really like Lee and felt he was a good fit, little quirky but really like his no nonsense work ethic. I agree, Halladay is a bit better though. Forget the prospects, the window is open, this is a good move.— phillyfanintx
- Well, I guess 1 good thing about this deal is that it keeps Halladay away from the Yanklees, Red Sox, Angels & Dodgers.— DMo
- Drabek is no better of a prospect than Aumont so this is basically a wash. Good deal by the Phils you essentially traded Lee for Halladay and were able to lock up Halladay for 3 more years at a slight discount.— Rod72
- either...if you want negative stuff read Conlin.— stoky
- Funboy hit the nail on the head. We are no closer to beating the Yankees if we give up Lee. We need both him AND Halladay to have a shot at another championship. Give 'em Hamels instead.— BroadStreet
- The Phillies are getting the BEST PITCHER IN ALL OF BASEBALL for the next 3 or 4 years. They're not like the Yankees and Red Sox who have unlimited payrolls and can just buy what they want. Only giving up Lee for one more year and a bunch of minor leaguers makes this an absolute steal....anybody remember the good old quiet, comfortable, title-less days of Ed Wade...do you want that back again.— joberzut
- How does this deal make the Phillies better this year? If the goal it to win the World Series, this trade just swaps #1 starters, nothing else. The Yankees, Red Sox and Brave have all improved, we need to be able to beat those teams and while Halladay for 3 years is nice it doesn't really improve the team.— lance71
- Either/or is right. the return on lee is so abd it was worth declinign blantons arb to free up salary and keeping halladay-lee together for one year. or, they could have made the hallday deal and waited for a beter return on lee.— RG
- What everyone has to realize is that Lee will absolutely hit the open market next winter because that's exactly what he and his agent want. He's not interested in signing an extension, according to virtually every pro scout, because he feels he can get Sabathia money as a free agent. The Phillies probably would have lost him after this year to an overbidder (i.e., the Yanks, BoSox or Cubs). So it comes down to...would you rather have Halladay for the next 4-5 years, or Lee for just next season? I don't like the idea of giving up Drabek, but to get a stud you have to give up highly touted prospects. And I completely agree with Martino's assessment of the 4 "prospects" traded for Lee last summer.— clowns96
- Andy...somewhere, somehow explain this. I don't get it either. "how does it make them "much, much better in 2011, 2012, and 2013?"— gspangen
- pls ask ruben - how does the deal announced equip us to beat the yankees in next year's series... as everyone knows - lee was the solution, not the problem, last post season. so the problem was the starters not named lee... now that you've replaced him and traded 3 top prospects how does this make us better?— terryharmon
- I think this deal, after getting the whole package, will be a great for the Phils. Halladay is a stud and you have him for 4 yrs at a good price which is critical to keeping the team at the top. Lee will be missed but Roy will make Lee a pleasant memory. Not worried about the prospects. They are what they are, prospects.— walt1
- Why not just trade Drabek, Taylor, and d’Arnaud to Toronto for Halladay, and keep Lee? Seattle has no effect on Toronto's deal.— bgcrimson29
- ESF, you know it. It's a good deal. Prospects are just that, prospects. Most never pan out. The Phils couldn't run the risk of Lee walking away next year with Halladay off the table. Then they'd be searching for second rate pitching. The Fightin's will be just fine. Halladay is a much better pitcher than Lee with more consistency. All you up and coming GM's need to chill...— Jamerock
- Nice work Andy, thanks.— furio
- Assuming the deal goes through, you watch, Lee will be THE midseason trade deadline discussion point. The M's will be out of it, and with Lee non-committal to resign, the M's will look to trade him for prospects. Maybe the Phils could send them their prospects back for Lee? Haha. Even if only for a 3 month rental, it might be worth it. Maybe Lee would be more willing to sign with the Phillies after pitching half a year on a bad team. Wishful thinking, but you never know. But guaranteed, this summer's biggest midseason trade discussion will be which team will trade for Lee.— FireChrisWheeler!
- GET THE STINKIN' GAME 6 BOX SCORE OFF THE PAGE!!!— lefty13153
- Dull -- Brown is 20 or 21. Let's wait until he's 26 and making the same mistakes.— ematusko
- "This is a pointless trade. You substitute one ace for another, lose several prospects...and for what exactly? A right-handed starter? I don't care how Halladay and Lee's stats compare...Lee was sensational last year. What I want to know is this...would Halladay have pitched as well as Lee pitched, in the playoffs and World Series? You cannot answer that, because you don't know. With Lee we know." Is your memory that impaired? Lee must be the best pitcher in baseball if he had a great playoff run, just like Hamels the year before. How did that turn out? You NEVER know what you're going to get out of your starters, but Halladay is and has been a top 5 pitcher consistently. He is a flat out stud. Nothing else to it— poopfeast
Prospects are maybes; Halladay is a definite. This deal is a winner. And as to the argument that the Phils are short on SP, name an NL team with a better rotation than Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ and Kendrick/Moyer. The only one with an argument is the Braves, who struggle to hit the ball out of the infield.— jpk- you people are all completly insane and know nothing about baseball...we traded a very good pitcher in lee for an elite pitcher in holliday...aumont and drabak are a wash..and the rest of the deal was just prospect swaps....i dont know how anyone could not like this deal— fkd629
- Taylor = MLB ready (Organization rumors) - Drabek - potential hit the Majors by July and remain there - similar to Hamels. Those two alone carry more than the Mariners prospects. I want more value for Lee.— dpcoz
- I understand the logic of the deal, I just don't agree with it. Why give up Drabek now when you wouldnt give him up last summer? We are basically giving up twice the prospects for what amounts to one pitcher. Even if they let Lee walk AFTER next year, we would get a 1st rd pick. They should have traded Blanton, even if it netted them subpar prospects. The chance to have Lee and Halladay in the same rotation was worth it.— jfd6812
- I understand the logic of the deal, I just don't agree with it. Why give up Drabek now when you wouldnt give him up last summer? We are basically giving up twice the prospects for what amounts to one pitcher. Even if they let Lee walk AFTER next year, we would get a 1st rd pick. They should have traded Blanton, even if it netted them subpar prospects. The chance to have Lee and Halladay in the same rotation was worth it.— jfd6812
This is not a three-team deal if it goes down as Andy has it here. I don't see anybody going from Seattle to Toronto. It's two separate trades. Which means the Phillies are trading Cliff Lee for these three uncertain Seattle prospects. Which means that the Phils STILL don't want to think like a top-echelon club, with a top-echelon payroll. Why should Halladay and Lee on the same staff not be "realistic"? It would be for the Yanks (Sabathia, Burnett) or BoSox (Beckett, Lackey). Halladay, Lee and Hamels in 2010 would have given the team a big chance to win the World Series, but with just Halladay and Hamels, the Phils come up short again. I am peeved.- Lot of spinning by Murphy here you would almost think he is on the Phillies pay-roll. If you think you can trade seven prospects away all who were ranked in the top 50 or so of prospects in baseball at one time or another and not have multiple of them turn into at least good major league players at some point I think you have to be crazy. Also, Espn is saying Domonic Brown in the package now not Michael Taylor. If this turns out to basically being Marson, Carrasco, Knapp, Donald, Drabek, D'Arnaud, and Brown for Roy Hallayday I am going to be stunned quite frankly. The prospects they are getting from Seattle are window dressing. They could have probably had Hallayday for Drabek and Brown last year and kept all those others guys.— brannigan73
- lee wasn't gonna sign a extension with the phils that basically forced the phils traded for halladay, at the expense of drebek and taylor. Given the circumstances, Im okay with this trade since we can lock up hallday for the next 4 years (during his prime too). I just wished that Lee would sign the extension so the trade phils never would have needed to make the trade. What im really curious about is how good Aumont, Ramirez, and Gillies is. I've read on ESPN that Aumont and Ramirez are top two mariner pitchin prospects, but mariners dont have too good of a farm so.....?— broad
- This deal is really two deals. I'm fine (though disappointed that we just didn't do this during last summer) with the Halladay trade. But the value on the return on Lee...is terrible. What the heck are they thinking? They could be leveraging the Angels and others..but instead jump at the first offer by the M's? If no M's prospects are needed in the Halladay trade then Ruben should wait and if they most trade Lee, get the best value. Stop being such a homer Andy— Westphilfan
- If the Phillies had a minor league player making minimum dollars at third base, plus Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee, they would likely win the 2010 World Series. If the Phillies had minor league players making minimum dollars at third base and left field, plus Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee, they would likely win the 2010 World Series.— Gnip Gnop
- The Halliday deal is good, the Lee deal is awful. The difference in price between Blanton and Lee is less than 2 million and he's going to walk after this year too. Why Amaro let his ego get in the way and dealt Lee instead of Blanton was downright stupid. The free agent compensation for Lee would be better than Blanton and had you kept Lee for this year you have an excellent chance to beat the Yankees in the World Series. By trading Lee you make yourself really marginally better than last year. I can't believe how badly Amaro screwed this up, boy those who thought Arbuckle should have gotten the G.M. job got a lot of ammo with the give away of Lee. He should have just given Toronto what they asked for last summer cause he gave away more in the end if you look at all he gave up between the Lee and Halliday deals and got back in the suspects he got back for Lee.— JBS67
- But andy, the team is in no better position to win against the big boys as opposed to last year, and now we dont even have the hopes of drabek maybe helping them late next summer going into the playoffs. Thats where the dissapointment lies. We all know in the long term that the phils now have an ace. Stop telling us this!!!! The problem is that this team is in the same boat as last world series. 1 ace and a prayer. Will smoltz be the broken down has been that gets the game 2 start this year as we all have to wonder if he has 1 good game left?? Couldnt get prospects and get a team to take on blanton's salary?? Why do you need prospects for blanton?? Get a bag of balls for him!! The bonus is you get 1 more year of Lee and a real legit shot at a ring where you can stand up to the sox or yankees, not have to hope you get all the breaks and the bounces, just to compete with them for 6 games. This core has maybe 3 years tops left. We all know Werth is gone after this year as he will command big dollars. You go for it right now and go over the budget for 1 golden shot at another ring. Yeah, Im spending someone elses money but Im also spending on tickets and merchandise like everyone else who hopd the phils were a truely elite franchise that goes for it all when the window is open, which is right now!! as it stands, unless Happ is the sandy koufax that some think he is (and he's not!), this team will be just what the team ownder want, a "competitive" 90-92 win team that prays that all the breaks will go their way if they get deep in the playoffs again. We all love Halladay. Thats not the issue. The cardinals and Braves both have better and deeper staffs, not to mention the american leagues top teams, including the team in seattle who just sent iffy prospects to the phils for a legitimate post-season ace. All these facts are why there is an overall letdown feeling amongst the fans.— sjmatt99
- If you are not a first round pick like M Taylor was not, then baseball "experts" never predict they will be all-stars because if they do they'll be asked why they did not rate them higher. Michael Taylor will be an all star and he will probably compete for Rookie of the year next year. Lets not bad mouth him just because we traded they guy, we just have room for him unless we moved Ben.— tsump
- Hate giving up both Taylor and Drabek. too much!!— PhillyNH
- I'm also ok with Halladay for Lee - and I'm in favor. Just don't agree with the prospect swap. We basically got nothing for Lee; the prospects from the Mariners are what should have been sent to the Jays. I f that ment they needed to included higher level prospects to get Lee than so be it.— tomoli
- Bittersweet losing exciting prospects and Lee in the deal, but this definitely makes the Phillies better. I'll stay on the fence about the new prospects until I learn more about them. Andy, look forward to reading your reports on them in the future.— telly
- We need to stop calling this a three team trade. It's two separate trades by the Phils since none of the prospects from Seattle are going to Toronto. Had we not done the stupid thing of signing Moyer to two years last year, we may have been able to keep both. I hate the Lee to Seattle part of this. How many more shots are we going to get at the World Series? Halladay and Lee would have been great in the rotation for this season. Sure, we're looking to be the best in the NL, but that wasn't good enough to win the World Series this year. Take a great shot this coming year and then who cares if Lee leaves at the end of this season. Is it a crime to go into the season with a solid set rotation instead of fooling around with several crappy options for the number five starter? And with the dough they're raking in at CBP, how can you have a strict budget when you have a chance to do something like this? Wouldn't you think the owners would make even more money with an even better team? I can't believe I'm not happy with this whole situation, but it's not necessary to trade Lee and we're going to do it anyway because of those owners who probably just pulled $140 million as a budget out of the air.— tsmagnum73
- only thing you can really argue is they didn't get enough in return from Seattle. Seattle is getting the best end of this deal in the short run. We'll see in the long run.— craigkmg
- Comment removed.
- Why not move people to get Halladay this season and keep Lee? The pay Lee his $9M this season and he bolts after the season is over, we get 2 compensatory when he leaves? Then we have Lee and Halladay for this season and we take an ACTUAL shot at the title?— kozykoz26
- "...The idea that Lee and Halladay could be part of the same rotation next year was never realistic. The Phils maintained they did not have the room in their payroll. That room might have been created by trading Blanton, but they couldn’t..." It was never realistic b/c the Phillies didn't want to pay Lee for the 1 year rental. There was an option for the Phillies to get Halladay by trading Drabek, Taylor, etc. and keeping Lee for a 1 year rental. After the season, they could have let Lee walk for 2 high picks as a Type A. It wasn't "realistic" b/c Phillies ownership didn't want to pay Lee for a 1 year rental. "...Baseball America projects Drabek as a potential no. 2 or no. 3 starter. He has already undergone Tommy John surgery, and the team shut him down this summer for precautionary reasons. Keep in mind that most highly-touted pitchers do not become stars. It is difficult to imagine that he will be comparable in any way to Halladay over the next four years..." Then why was Drabek "untouchable" until know? Drabek went from being the next Cy Young/God-incarnate to trade bait in the span of a couple months. This deal should have been done at the deadline last year and we would likely have had 2 WS rings in 2 years. This entire trade makes us marginally better next year. Finally, don't forget Phils get a nice chunk of change ($6mill) from Toronot to defray Doc's 2010 salary. This was all about $ and Phils trying to play BS budget games, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I woulnd't normally complain b/c we are a $140 million team, but suck it up and pay Lee for the 1 year rental. You would guarantee revenue next year and a WS ring.— DennyP
- fkd6...nobody is answering my question... how does this deal make us better to beat the yankees in next year's series... i don't see that it does.— terryharmon
- Typical for Ruben "Lateral Move" Amaro - 2 steps forward, and then two steps back.— Bobphxville
- Andy, your logic on why the Phils "had" to trade Lee is faulty at best. If the Halladay side of the deal is complete w/out the Mariners, why even trade Lee? To me, one more year of Lee + the draft pickes they would get when he leaves is worth more than the prospects they got back. This amounts to a move to save money, when 9 million for Lee is an absolute bargain. Maybe they shouldnt have given Moyer a 2 year contract, released Jenkins when they still owed him $$, signed 37 yr old Ibanez to a 3 year deal, etc. And, if they cant afford 9 million for Lee now, then they obviously have no money to fill their bullpen needs anyway. The Lee side of this deal is absolutely terrible.— jfd6812
- This trade makes a lot of sense given the uncertainty of Lee next year. Alos, don't forget that while Lee started and finished strong, he was miserable in the middle. Not sold on any prospects until they actually contribute at the major league level. I'd rather be proactive than wait to see what happens in free agency. Finally, many of the detractors of this trade are the same ones who didn't like getting Lee instead of Halladay last summer— parrothead
- JBS67 said it perfectly. The halladay deal is ok, the cliff lee deal stinks. Just because someone is a teams top prospect doesnt mean that the prospect is a blue chip player. maybe Drabek and Taylor wont be any more than average, but right now their value is very high. Why does Lee get back so much less, especially when toronto was in a position to have to trade halladay?? I just dont get it.— sjmatt99
- this deal stinks. why can't the phillies have lee and hallday next year, you accept the company line they can't. they sold out almost every game and made a ton of money on ads, sponsorships, merchandise.— Chase Rolllins
- Not sure where Gilles ranks as a prospect, but with Taylor gone the Phils will need to extend Werth who's contract is up at the end of 2010. I saw him interviewed during a Phils game towards the end of last season and he seemed to be a smart level headed guy. Not thrilled with losing him.— borncynic
- Why not just trade Blanton for nothing to shed the payroll. Lee and Halladay could have been in the same rotation if the Phillies were not so intent on getting these prospects back from Seattle (who probably won't be good anyway). Not getting these Seattle prospects is a small price to pay to be World Series favorites— Lemur
- terryharmon- youre right this does not make us significantly better than last year. read the article- specifically the last sentence. this is a good long term move.
- Andy, thanks for trying to quell the unrest here. It obviously the better move. We are getting the best pitcher in baseball for less than Lee, AND for multiple years. You are also 100% right about the prospects. I hate when people just say "bring Michael Taylor up" etc. because they read he is a good player. This year is poised to be another great one.— wlightning02
- I wonder what would have happened if the Phillies never gave Moyer his 2-year deal. Then the possibility of both Roy and Lee in the rotation is much more likely. Also, why didn't Rube pull the trigger back in July to get Roy if he is willing now to trade Drabek?— crjunkin
- The Jamie Moyer deal after the '08 World Series bothered me; now that the $8 million he's owed is blocking us from keeping Lee, it enfuriates me even more. I wish that old man would have just retired and rode off into the sunset as a world champion.
- If the Phillies needed to free up money to pay both Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee, why did they sign free agent Placido Polanco to an $18 million 3 year contract? The Phillies could have put Eric Bruntlett at third base and even if he hit .172 the Phillies would have likely won the 2010 World Series with both Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee in the rotation.— Gnip Gnop
The real question I have is exactly why is it that Cliff Lee was unwilling to forgo FA and talk to the Phillies about a long-term contract now? Must be something there that we don't know, unless it's simply the agent pushing for the max dollars.— bobby- It's great we get Halladay, but why do it now, as opposed to during the season? The Phils are trading a completely different set of prospects to Toronto than they traded to Cleveland, so both deals could have been done then. Halladay could re-sign as he wanted to anyway. They could let Lee walk and test free agency, like he wants to, but they would've had BOTH for 1.5 years, and a likely 3 WS titles in a row! That would more than offset the increased payroll for the short term. Let's just hope that Taylor doesn't end up being Ryne Sandberg II - a prospect that's part of a blockbuster deal, who ends up being the focal point years later.— uncle meat
- Halladay is head and shoulders above Lee. I know we all fell in love with Lee last postseason, but Halladay is the best righthanded pitcher in baseball. Lee is a fly-ball pitcher and Halladay is a ground ball pitcher which is better suited for the Bank. Last year at the trading deadline we all wanted Halladay and were reluctantly happy about Lee when he came over. He was unreal, but Halladay is a one of kind pitcher and he is signed for 3 years plus now. Losing Drabek hurts, but we are getting some good prospects back from Seattle. Not the best prospects but they are called prospects for a reason. We kept Dominic Brown and JA Haap. If Hamels gets his act together( which he probably will) then this is a pretty good rotation: R - Halladay L - Hamels L - Haap R - Blanton L - Moyer/Free Agent/Young Guy. This is a great trade. Halladay will come from the tough AL East and dominate the NL. It will be fun to watch.— jpweisel
- So the Phillies are counting on Jamie Moyer filling in the 5 spot of the rotation with this trade? Because now Drabek won't be coming up after the break. They are going to have to make another move to fill in that 5 spot.— terb
- Great Trade! Unproven prospects and a pitcher who's going to book for free agency after next year, wherever he plays, for the best right hander in baseball for at least 4 years, and 2 additional option years. Halladay's 18-6 against the Yankees, and dominated the AL, in a very strong division. How do you think he's going to do against the Nats, Marlins, Braves, every other NL team. If he stays healthy, this is a Great deal. Go Phils!— flyfantx
- Most importantly, can anyone prove that Roy Halladay and Ryan Madson are different people? http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/20/206664.jpg http://notinhd.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/roy-halladay.jpg— im1dermike
- ChrisM, It makes them better b/c Halladay will be with the Phillies for "cheap" and Lee was unlikely to be here.— Scholes
- Totally agree...just jettison Blanton to any team that will take the salary because he's walking after this year anyway. Keep Lee!— Westphilfan
- Maybe the Phils know something about Drabek. A lot of teams will hype up a prospect and call him off limits so teams want him more and more. They shut him down this summer as a 'precaution'. Amaro seems to know what he is doing. Halladay is a stud and everyone will love this trade in 5 months!— jpweisel
- I think you're really going out of your way to talk down the talent given away. I don't mind us renting Lee or getting Halladay, but all the guys we gave up were talent every Phillie fan was smiling about. I think we could see all of them in some way in the NL as we watch MLB over the next ten years and certainly I hope one or two of them plays in the mid summer classic.— Artiescott
- First of all, CC Sabathia was 28 years old when he got that contract from the Yankees. Halladay would not be able to get that kind of contract with regards to length and amount on the open market. Halladay would have been available as a free agent at the end of 2010. Anything more than 4 yrs/80 Million would be overpaying. The Phils would have been better served keeping Lee, and signing Halladay or Lee as a free agent. Lee is the best value on their roster right now. I would only give up the prospects if I was able to keep both Halladay and Lee at the same time, and go for it all this year. This move does not improve the active roster (Halladay for Lee is a wash), and depletes the farm of the very prospects the organization did not want to lose last July. All to obtain a pitcher that they would have been able to obtain as a free agent for similar money.— arrowamy
- Michael Taylor Will Be Traded For Brett Wallace By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 15, 2009 at 11:04am CST] The Blue Jays will trade outfielder Michael Taylor to the A's for third base prospect Brett Wallace, according to ESPN.com's Buster Olney. Okay answer me this...wouldnt the Phils been better off trading taylor to the A's for this prospect and then resigning Lee and putting say brown in the deal for Halladay? Dont like losing Taylor. Depleting farm system for a 32 yr old pitcher scares me about the long term of this club. Amaro mortgage the future, pretty handlly. The Phils just looked like they would sustain and now this, bad deal— LGbalsac
- I think this will end up being a bad trade for the Phillies ...the type of thing we will look back on a few years from now and wish the Phillies had just kept both Lee and their prospects...They are putting all their eggs in the Halladay basket you see how that has worked out for the Mets in the past. If this guy is not lights out or if throws his arm out in May then we have nothing left(see Elton Brand via Philadelphia 76ERS) Not that I don't want Halladay but I think our GM got taken in this deal.— sandman64
- ANSWER ME THIS. The Phils stated during the last attempt at Halladay that they are going to NOT trade any of their potential future for Halladay. They have traded 7 prospects for the guy they wanted. Now they can trade him for the same players they had last year. This is the same trade the Jays wanted back in August. Same trade. So they are building for NOW. They traded all their prospects but one away. They are obviously playing for now, but they feel they still need trade away Lee. This WAS NOT a 3 way trade. This was 2 separate trades independent of each other with a team that could not come to grips with paying 9 million to Lee. Great Halladay is the top 3, but by the time his extension starts, Werth will be gone to the sum of 15 million a year to a different team. Ibanez will be way past his prime. Howard will be in a bidding war to play for the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, or Cardinals. Not to mention other key players GONE. they are built to win now, but they had to trade Lee. I love the Phils, but they obviously do not want to thank the city for all of the addition revenue we provided them this year in sell outs and playoff games. Lee could have stayed and they would have been rewarded one or possibly 2 first round picks for him when he leaves.— SlinkTMP
- terrible! if Halladay wasn't worth giving up Drabek last year, why is he now that we have more leverage? Lee is younger, PROVEN postseason success, and the more recent Cy Young, so why should we have to give up so much more just to exchange that ace for another? i hope this all bogus, becuase if true we would have given up a total of 7 top prospects for one ace and a couple prospects inferior to our best. much much MUCH rather keep Lee, Drabel, Taylor, d'Arnaud that trade thel all for Halladay. i mean he's good, but come on! arm injury away from this organization being in ruins.— Brainiac
- I agree with the consensus forming here that we are getting jobbed on the Lee trade. If it's two separate trades why are they in such a rush to trade Lee without shopping for the best deal?? At least get a ML starter like Morrow from Seattle. It doesn't add up!!!— sla6yer
At least Reuben is trying. That is nice to see. This deal - whether it turns out good or bad down the road - shows he has imagination and guts. Two needed qualities for a GM.— Poppys- WELCOME TO PHILADELPHIA ROY HALLADAY!!!!!!! THE BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL the PAst 10 YEARS HANDS DOWN!!!!! NOT HIS FAULT HE PLAYED FOR A SUCKY TEAM. HE has better numbers than LEE.— phillieseagles4life
- Foxsports is reporting that the Jays will be giving the Phils $6 million in cash towards Halladay's salary this year. That makes his salary around $9 million this year which is Lee's salary. If Blanton is expected to make around $7 million, then Blanton should be traded, not Lee. The only reason to trade Lee would have been if you needed the prospects from a Lee trade to complete the Halladay deal. But all reports are that the Phils will trade Drabek, Taylor and D'Arnaud to the Jays for Halladay. So the only reason for trading Lee is to clear salary and/or re-stock the farm system (with young guys from Seattle, Class A level guys). They could trade Blanton, keep Lee and it's only a $2 million difference in salary which they certainly can handle for this year. Go for another World Series title this year and then get the 2 draft picks when Lee leaves in free-agency after the end of the year. I'd rather keep Lee for the year and get the 2 draft picks instead of trade him now and get 3 young prospects.— JimG
- TORonto Was not going to give him up For Free. So stop complaining about Drabek.— phillieseagles4life
- Is giving up Lee and Drabek for Haladay a good deal? No.— NickFotiu4HOF
- I have zero confidence Hammels will return to form especially after him complaining about how rough his year was ...don't see the fire in his belly ... Lee will be missed— anthemra
- All you people that are being negative fail to realize that Halladay will be signed for at least 4 years. Halladay is awesome and in my mind a better pitcher than Lee!!! We have no clue what Drabek will do! I can't remember the last pitcher the Phillies were really high on in the minors who lived up to the expectations.— jeremy817
- Let's not forget, by keeping Lee, that get a great pitcher for a very reasonable price. And if he leaves as a free agent, you get two first round draft picks next year. Why in the world do you get rid of Lee to save a stinking 9 million dollars??? The value they are giving up in prospects, and the two first round picks, are worth much more than 9 million dollars. Andy, which is worth more? Having Lee for 2010, keeping Drabek and Taylor, getting two first round draft picks in 2011....vs. saving 9 million dollars this year?— arrowamy
- Someone on the other side has to want Blanton. By all accounts, they tried shopping him. Halladay is an improvement. Overall, he's better consistently than Lee and he gives them the stud RHP they've been lacking, locked up for a few years so they can continue to make a run at the WS. It was also definitely about price as the Phils don't have an unlimited payroll as much as we'd like to fantasize. What's left is to shore up the pen. When this deal is out of the way I'd expect Amaro to make some bullpen moves. Knowing their cash situation may be what he was waiting for.— s
- Bad trade. Lee=Halladay is fine, but Drabek? Maybe if the M's gave up Morrow, but Aumont is a dud. He's from Quebec and would be better PR move to Toronto. And you're wrong about Taylor, Andy. He's going to be a very, very good player in the Mike Cameron mold, and we'll have to wait and see, but having seen both Taylor and Brown play, Taylor will have the longer/better MLB career.— Corsair42
- Comment removed.
- The Halladay part makes sense to me, but what's reported right now is not a three-team deal. It's two completely separate deals. Deal 1 is Halladay for Drabek, Taylor and Travis d’Arnaud. Deal 2 is Lee for the three Seattle prospects. If money is the main reason to move Lee, wouldn't it had made more sense to not offer Blanton arbitration, let him become a free agent and save the $6 or $7 million he's going to get for 2010. Then you can keep Lee's $9 million for 2010. They'd be pretty left-handed heavy in the rotation, but whatever... Why not just do the Halladay deal and hold on to Lee for right now? I can't believe other teams (the L.A. Angels?) wouldn't have ponied up more value for a chance at Lee.— NJguy
- It's official. If a pot of gold landed in most of your laps, you'd whine and complain that it was not a pot of platinum. This is a good deal in terms of securing predictability for upcoming years as well as getting a stud pitcher. There is no doubt Holliday is a better pitcher than Lee based on raw numbers. But he also has a much longer track record and faced tougher (AL East) competition. It is also better business to deal exclusively with Halladay than in an open market for him or Lee. Further, I agree that Drabek has been overinflated since Day 1. He'll make the majors in the next year or two and he should be good, but there's no guarantee he will be a star. You ALWAYS trade prospects for a 3+ year deal for an established star. Come on folks... Todd Van Poppel, Brian Taylor, Mark Prior, etc. etc. etc. I remember when Marlon Anderson was supposed to be the future of the Phillies. This is a great deal.— e4stringer
- I feel better about the deal if Happ isn't in it, althoughthe Toronto papers assumed they were getting Happ. If Happ and Blanton are not in the mix, it's almsot a wash sale because Lee short term and Halliday Longer term are about the same. Who really can rate pitchers wo haven't thrown in the majors yet? Too unknown to get worried about. But then there was alwyas the Phils trying to get the established De Jesus and protecting Bell, and thus giving up that unknown kid-- Sandberg. Who knows how it will end. Glad it's not a real contract with Halliday, that's always a kiss of death for the Phils. However, I don't understand how the Red Sox can afford to get another Number 1 pitcher and create what may be the best rotation in baseball and the bigger city Phils can't.— atp2007
- This isn't a Lee for Halladay trade...this is a trade of Carrasco, Marson, Donald and Knapp for whatever the Phils get in return for Seattle. For that, the Phils rented Lee and made it to a World Series they wouldn't have played in without him. And now they get Halladay for less than it cost last year....losing Drabek stinks but it beats losing Drabek, Happ and Brown which is what Toronto wanted last year. They were never going to have Lee and Halladay at the same time for payroll reasons because we still aren't the Yankees or Red Sox on the money front...that is the only part of this that is worth complaining about. Don't forget that last year everyone felt like Halladay was the better pitcher and that we settled for Lee. Lee means a lot to us because of what he did down the stretch but over the long haul, Doc is the better, more dominant pitcher and his ERA in the National League will be microscopic.— DocHollywood
- What I don't get is why Seattle seems to be giving away so little to get Lee. Unless these are knockout prospects, I don't see comparing the three Mariner prospects to either Halladay or Lee (or evenly to the Phils prospects named). The real loser is Toronto, big winner Seattle and Phillies getting a decent upgrade but stay close to the same.— Timmy
- There are stilll guys out there who didn't get tendered or are still FAs. I know a lot of people are down on say, Jason Marquis, for example, or Ben Sheets--to use examples of some FAs--they can probably be had for cheap--they're not going to command multiyear deals.— bobbyuk
- Pull Lee back- you could get more from him from the Angels.........
- If it is Cy-for-Cy, then at lease one of them won't leave after one more year...— Philly Fan in Kuwait
- At noon, I checked the Toronto Star website and they are still saying that they will get Happ from the Phils.— atp2007
- on paper, seems like the key is drabek. if he is solid or better, this trade subtracted value both next year and over the next 5. if he struggles, it was a slight upgrade (halladay overall better than lee, but never playoff tested). feel like last time we did a "starter" swap was bowa for dejesus, where we threw in sandberg. didn't work too well. of course, before that was wise for carlton....— stopbooing
- NJ Guy, I agree with everything you said. I really questioned why they even offered Joe Blanton arbitration if they were deadset on getting Roy Halladay. Regardless, I think some people need a reality check. We just traded for Roy Halladay and people are complaining? We have two aces and rookie of the year runner up in our rotation for the forseeable future, that's pretty darned good. Finally, if you're going to compare us to the Yankees remember that pitching did not lose the WS, nor did it win the Yanks the series.— booman55
- Trade Blanton for anything you can get just to dump his $7 mil. Trade for Halladay, keep Lee. If they need to free up payroll for 2011, trade Ibanez to American League as a DH, call up Brown, if you can resign Lee. Continuous trips to the WS will do wonders for their payroll, especially when they have the third biggest viewership among MLB teams, behind the Yanks and Boston. Perfect world, Comcast buys the Phils, starts a larger network like NY, and then the real money will start to come in.— beegal99
- Seattle Times is saying that Toronto will get either Drabeck or Happ, and that the Mariners would supply the other prospects to go to the Phils and Toronto.— atp2007
- Has anybody got a Plan "B" in case Lidge is 09' and not 08' in 10'?— dedhed
- Wow Andy Martino, you could not have said it any better! People Aumont is gonna be better than Drabek mark my words! Plus Halladay for 4 year > Lee for 1 and we get 6mil$ from toronto— HighHopesforHK
- I wish they'd just cancel the deal with the Mariners, keep the deal for Halladay (no kidding that Halladay for Drabeck + others is a FANTASTIC deal for Philly) swallow Moyer's salary, and win the whole thing next year. They'll make more off tickets, tee shirts, etc, than need to pay for the Moyer contract mistake - and I like Moyer. Just not as much as Lee.— Tulsa
- You're telling us that nobody wanted Blanton at $7M. Amaro said that everyone's looking for pitching, but but they couldn't trade Blanton! Mediocre FA pitchers are signing for more than $7M. Ridiculous! So, they have to trade Lee, instead of Blanton, to save a couple of million $ and to get a couple of prospects?? Are those prospects worth more than the two high draft picks they would have gotten if Lee left as a FA? You have to look at these as two separate deals, it's not a 3-way trade. The Toronto deal puts us back in the World Series. The Seattle trade MEANS WE LOSE to the Yankees again.— SkinnyJoey
- this might be the worst trade in phillies history... WHY THE HELL WE DIDNT GET HALLADAY LAST YEAR IS BLOWING MY MIND. INSTEAD OF LOSING 3 PROSPECTS, WE ARE NOW LOSING OUR ENTIRE FARM SYSTEM FOR HALLADAY. I LOVE HALLADAY BUT THIS WAS SO MISMANAGED ITS MAKING ME SICK!— Apollo Creed
- I heard the phils were getting 6 million from toronto also. if thats the case then why not keep lee for the year, and the following year you can trade him for a better package or receive draft picks ??— jack torrente
- If this report is accurate, within the past 6 months we will have given up future pitchers Drabeck, Knapp, and Carrasco, future catchers Arenaud and Marson, Taylor (OF), Donald (IF), $20MM/year, and got soon-to-be 33-year-old Halladay. That's a lot of potential talent to give up for one used arm.— Scoop
- I think what people are forgetting is the fact that Lee would be gone after 2010. Even if he stayed, it would cost A LOT of money. Money that might be better spent elsewhere. I hate to see Lee go but if its a choice between Halladay for 3 years and Lee for one year, I'll go with Halladay. Drabek is still an unknown but it hurts to see him go as well. Of course none of this will make any difference unless Hamels and Lidge get back to top form.— esesjay
- WAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We used to give up Cy Young award candidates for Omar Daal and Travis Lee. Now we get Cy Young award winners in return. You people are clueless. Halladay is WAY better than Lee is. Lee has been great for 2.5 years. Halladay has been great for 12. And with Toronto giving us $6 million and shedding Lee's $8 million, we are getting the best pitcher in the league for $1.75 million this year, which allows us to go out and get a 5th starter and much-needed bullpen help. Way to go Rube!!— seaonasdad
- Andy, Your spin in favor of the club is almost Hofmann-esque. Your putting all your eggs in one basket. I just don't see savaging your farm system for a 'slight' upgrade. After Halladay, the rest of the rotation is a question mark. At the very least, if Lee left via free agency, you would get two very good draft picks and still have a farm system intact to replenish or fill other holes.— Baseball George
- Your nuts this deal is the worst! Halladay for 7 overall prospects and they get back a prospect with a hurt shoulder who they made a reliever last year and a prospect who has speed but got caught stealing 19 times! Amaro thinks he is playing a chess game with these players he has destroyed the farm system in less then a year! So if they need to trade at the trading deadline next year because Cole Hamels sucks again, who can they trade now Dominic Brown and his 229 batting average? I wish baseball writers would know more about baseball and stop with the boot licking of the organization. Halladay is good , but just because they are too cheap to pay Lee 9 mil this year and let him go for two number ones next year, they can't afford him? What a joke. They gave Brett Myers 12 mil to do nothing. Im Halladay has never even thrown a playoff pitch and Lee was lights out, there is no defending this move.— protek67
- This is a GREAT deal, it makes them better in 2011, 2012, and 2013 because Cliff Lee would NOT have been here then and Halladay will. Hamels and Halladay at the top of the rotation is a devastating 1-2 punch. Not a single person reading this knows what Kyle Drabek will become and the reality is that he is more likely to be the next Brandon Duckworth then the next Roy Halladay. Just because a team tells you over and over again that so and so will be a future star doesn't necessarily make it true. The Phillies just swung a deal for THE BEST right handed pitcher in the game today. Lee was phenomenal for us last season, beyond any and all expectations but the reality is he would not have been here past next season. People, p[lease get past the prospect thing, there is no guarantee that any of these players, including those dealt to Cleveland will ever be anything great. There is however a guarantee that Roy Halladay will be great. Great job once again by Ruben and his staff!— beagle29
I'm sure Amaro did not consult Gillic...poor decision! this trade sucks!!! That's all I can say— Reese- Todd Pratt: they tried to trade Blanton to clear salary AND get prospects for a Halladay trade but weren't going to be able to get good enough prospects to make the Halladay deal work which is why they were going to trade Lee instead. Now, it's a totally different ballgame because they are trading their own prospects. If they are trading their own prospects instead, they just need to clear salary. Someone will take Blanton, they just aren't going to give up what they'd give up for Lee.— JimG
- we should have made the halladay deal last year and then we would all be talking about a 3-peat !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!— jack torrente
- Why should Phils be the ones giving up prospects? The Mariners are the only team in the deal, not trading an ace. Should they not shoulder most of the prospects in the deal?— camtheman
- It's not that the Phillies couldn't afford Halladay and Lee for next year. The problem is that the Phillies couldn't afford Halladay, Lee AND JAMIE MOYER. That's right if RAJ didn't cave and give Moyer two years last year he'd wouldn't have painted himself into the corner this year. So in the big picture RAJ has moved Lee and Drabek for Halladay and next year they might tell us they can't afford Joe Blanton when he hits the open market but then again they could always plug in Kyle Kendrick right?— T-Money
- While I'm not crazy about the Lee to Seattle part of this reported deal... I will say that because of the previous Gillick connection, my guess is the Phillies and Amaro have a pretty good idea who they like and don't like in Seattle's system. As far now, I'm still inclined to trust that Amaro knows what he's doing. He's made some great moves in his first year as GM.— NJguy
- These are two seperate trades. The Halladay trade with Toronto makes sence. Wonderful improvement to our team. The Lee trade to Seattle is nonsence. Andy Martino's statement that they need to trade Lee because they couldn't move Blanton's 7 mill also makes no sense. They Phillies just signed Blanton, what, 2 days ago?! Why did they not let him walk just like they did Condrey and save money for Lee? The 2 mill extra Lee would cost would give you Halladay and Lee and a World Series Title in 2010. Either they screwed up by signing Blanton 2 days ago and now they are stuck with him, or they are that cheap that they would rather have Blanton and 2 mill than Lee. And who cares if you don't get any prospects for Blanton by letting him walk? You get compensation draft picks. And if Lee walks because you can't afford him next year, at least you got one year of the best rotation in Baseball and some more compesation draft picks. Now your farm system is replenished. Doesn't anyone else see this? Horrible management.— edf
- we need both, roy and cliff. point blank...bottomline...period. repeat after me...hamels is NOT the answer. well, it was a great ride while it lasted.— pmw2824
- Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ, and a fifth starter, not too bad. This is good trade, Hallday is a horse and can pitch on 3 days rest. Please tell me why Lee could not pitch on three days rest in the World Series? Because he is a wimp and did not want to tire his arm out for 2010, his contract year. Lee should have pitched Games 1, 4, and 7, just like CC was lined up to do for the Yanks. This is why we need Hallday, he is a Man.— albanykey
- Lets see if they let this comment go through, if you have to spend all this time defending the deal to everyone, because look at all the websites, 85 to 90% people think its a bad deal, Buster Olney says its bad, a he talked with several baseball gm's who said its bad as well. This about the Phils staying under 140 mil on the payroll this year and nothing else, Lee did not have to go they could have gotten Halladay last year with a similar package of players, so that makes the Blue jays look smart and the Phils look dumb. The prospects they are getting for Lee are questionable at best, the pitcher they made into a reliever because he arm was sore last year. I wanna throw up!— protek67
I gotta disagree that this is a good deal for 1 main reason, the Phillies did not improve the team. I don't care what anyone says Halladay and Lee are on the same level, so what is the thinking behind trading your ace pitcher, your top pitching prospect and arguably your top position prospect for Halladay? Midseason Drabek was untouchable and now he's a throw in? I don't get it and don't like it. Fail.— Mayhem- The big question is what do the Phillies do next to improve the club? Toronto is paying $6 million to the Phillies. Lee was going to make $9 million so it's a wash. How does RAJ use the remaining dollars he has left to improve the bullpen and maybe add another potential starter. That's the bigger picture beyond this deal.— DennyM15
- It is about MONEY!! If we wanted back to back championships, we could have had BOTH Lee and Halliday last year AND this year. After next year, we could have let Lee walk and get two draft picks back. We also could have let Werth walk, etc to shed a ton of money. Taylor and Drabek could have taken their spots. EVERY game would have sold out next year, but they wouldnt take the one year hit in salary for the chance to dominate next year. The end.— gluteman
- This link will make you throwup http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/1778/mariners-pulling-off-a-heist— protek67
- HEY: Don't trade Lee. Pay him this year and then let the chips fall where they may.— mungman
- Lee AND Drabek? Not worth it. I doubt Halladay will be any more effective than Lee, plus we'd lose our top pitching prospect, who's probably a near-future MLB starter.— p-diddy
- The reality of the situation is that the Phillies "could" have had a rotation of Lee, Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, and Happ. Could....for one year, one lousy year, the Phillies owed it to their fans, loyal fans who have had a sip of champagne just twice in OVER 100 years of painstakingly watching year after year of bad front office decisions, bad trades, and simply bad baseball. Now that "we" have the opportunity to be an almost lock for the post season and an amazing post season run, boom...right from under our legs. I know...I know...say what you want, but to deal Lee now, now..when we could have had a dominant pitching staff for the "ages"...Keep Lee, get the draft picks if he leaves...and beat the heck out of the league.— drhoffman
- Let's say the Phils don't make this trade, we keep Drabek, Taylor, and d'Arnaud, and of course, Cliff Lee. Next offseason, we lose Cliff Lee to free agency because we can't afford to give him Sabathia type $ (23+ mil/yr), and do not want to give him Sabathia type years (7 years). That means we traded away 4 prospects for a year and a half rental, and are right back to where we started: with Hamels as our only top of the rotation guy, Blanton, Happ, and question marks surrounding 4 and 5. Doesn't sound good to me. The Phils made this move because they knew Halladay would take less years and money to come to a contender, while Lee wouldn't, meaning we were getting Halladay for longer than another season. This is exactly what Andy meant when he said we would be a much better team in 2010, 2011, and 2012. Will Drabek be great? Who knows.. Taylor is a good prospect, so is Drabek, but they are just that: prospects. 2 years ago Carrasco was Drabek- he was our prize pitching talent in our farm system. Now? He is what he is- unlikely to ever materliaze into a #3 pitcher, let alone a quality 1 or 2 like we all hoped. The same thing could happen with Drabek as well. And while we grew attached to Drabek, I think the sentiment is getting a little out of control. You all are crazy to think he would have been starting in the majors by mid-July. The prospects we got in return have just as good of a chance to become effective major league players. So- we get a right handed workhorse, arguably the best pitcher in baseball, at a discounted rate for the next 3 years, in exchange for a 1 year rental (Lee in Seattle) and a couple of prospects, but got a couple in return. Sounds like a good deal to me.— IgglesPhitinPhils3
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- best journalism moment of 2009: "Keep in mind that most highly-touted pitchers do not become stars." two sentences later: "this [loss of dreabek] is much easier for the Phils to absorb, because they are receiving a highly-touted pitcher"— zwarte piet
- This is a sad day for Blue Jays fans. Roy Halladay is something special. You guys got a class act. And he's an even better pitcher than Lee. Nothing's for sure, but Roy "grew up" in the AL East, while Lee was from the weaker AL Central. He's going to love pitching to pitchers now... The guy is dominant. He'll win 20+ this year and lets just say that Tim Lincecum will not be winning his 3rd straight Cy Young. For our sake I particularly hope Drabek and Taylor/Wallace pan out because this is a tough pill to swallow. Congratulations Philly— jaysfanwinnipeg
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- The 3 players from Seattle are very average. Phillipe Aumont had a 12.00 ERA last year?????? Tyson Gillies apearrs to be the best player of the 3, but all very average. These guys are the Mariners scraps.— itpSD
- it's a good deal cause it's protection for the next few years with halladay vs. lee. even if they didn't do this deal and kept lee, phils still need hamels and lidge back to their old selves. people counting out hamels at this stage of his career are morons, 25 yr-old leftes with Series MVP don't get traded.— snakeplissken
- edf...totally agree with you. No idea why the second trade with Lee has to happen. The deal for Halladay is a good one because it's for less than it would have taken in July and we will have him locked up at a good for 3 more years. But if the Phils are getting 6 million from Toronto, why do the Lee deal? And if you're going to do it, why now and why to Seattle? This has Gillick written all over it. I can't blame Ruben...but blame the ownership for being shortsighted about a one year chance to have an opportunity to win a 3rd straight NL title (hasn't happened since the 40's) and a second World Series title in 3 years. For what? A couple of million at a time when ticket prices were raised, the Bank is full every night and merchandise is flying off the shelves. Crazy. If they had Halladay and Lee for this year, they could make up the difference by selling standing room only to every home game....— DocHollywood
- m8roth- and everyon else that doesn't see the big pitcure. Lee wanted Sabathia money and length of contract. You cannot understand how good of a deal it is to get a CY young pitcher in his prime for half the money and length of contract. Remember if you sign a guy to say a 100 million dollar deal no matter how he is pitching in 3 or 4 years you have to pay him. A 3 year extension for Halladay is amazing. Drabek had Tommy John surgery and prospects are just that prospects, nobody knows how good they will be in the Big's. What Amaro just did was amazing and says hey the future is now and we are serious about competing for the title the next 3 years. Lee would have been gone after end of this season.— bobf876
- sdgeiger, how do you NOT get that this makes the Phillies better? Halladay is statistically better than Lee. The Phillies play in a bandbox. Halladay is a gound ball pitcher, while Lee is a flyball pitcher. Halladay is righthanded, Lee is lefthanded (something the Phillies have an excess of). Halladay has pitched on 3 days rest in the past, something the Phillies could have used to match up better in the postseason. Prosepects are just prisoects - names on an organizational depth chart. Many of them never pan out (just look at Carrasco, Marson, and Donald since they left Philly!). This also includes Drabek. He hasn't thrown a single major league pitch, and he's already had surgery and is being coddled. By the time he's ready to contribute at the Halladay level (if ever), Howard, Utley, and the others will all be over the hill. THE TIME IS NOW!— jman
- (apparently, I have trouble spelling 'prospects')— jman
- Still think they could have kept Lee...It is a money thing and Reuben thought like then Eagles...Come on Rube....don't think like Joe...create a dynasty.....— nuggett
- the best analysis of these trades and (More importantly) the prospects is up at phuturephillies.com. We're clearly not replentishing our system with what we're giving up.— dpcoz
- forget about the prospects. prospects are proespects. the trade gives you halladay for 4 years instead of lee for 1 year. end of story.— bobbyd24
- bobbyd24 - keep saying that when 1) We need someone like drabek to replace the kendrick/moyer debacle come july/august, and 2) when we need a replacement in RF in 2011 after Werth leaves for a payday in Free Agency.— dpcoz
- If these are 2 seperate deals, why not try to get more from Angels. They have a very good farm system. You could play the 2 teams against each other— rc-reading