Amaro Jr.: Ibanez almost as productive as Werth
ORLANDO, Fla. -- When asked to assess Raul Ibanez' 2010 season Thursday before leaving the GM meetings, Ruben Amaro Jr. made an interesting unsolicited comparison by bringing free-agent right fielder Jayson Werth into the discussion.
Amaro Jr.: Ibanez almost as productive as Werth
Bob Brookover, Inquirer Baseball Columnist
Despite having a lower batting average and less home runs, Raul Ibanez only had two less RBI than Jayson Werth in 2010. (Staff file photos)
ORLANDO, Fla. -- When asked to assess Raul Ibanez' 2010 season Thursday before leaving the GM meetings, Ruben Amaro Jr. made an interesting unsolicited comparison by bringing free-agent right fielder Jayson Werth into the discussion.
"(Ibanez) was still a pretty productive player and ... his numbers are not all that different from Jayson's last year," the Phillies general manager said. "What did (Ibanez) have, 83 RBIs? Jayson had 85. (Ibanez) didn't have as many opportunities as Jayson did to drive in runs.
"Clearly, Jayson had more runs scored and his on-base percentage and stuff were better, but (Ibanez) had 37 doubles and five triples or something like that. The difference in their production was not all that great."
What's so fascinating about Amaro's comparison is that it could serve two purposes.
In addition to talking up Ibanez in a thinly veiled effort to increase the left fielder's trade value, he also devalued Werth's contributions to the team last season.
For the record, Ibanez batted .275 with 16 home runs and 83 RBIs. He had 37 doubles and five triples. Werth hit .296 with 27 home runs and 85 RBIs. He had 46 doubles and two triples Werth, of course, is seven years younger and a superior outfielder to Ibanez.
You can read more about the final day of the GM meetings in tomorrow's Inquirer.
Comments (64)
Whatever he does, the five hole needs to be filled, and I hope not with Brown, as he needs another year playing everyday. As much as I would love to have Werth back, it's not looking too good.
— TBear- sgamble077- really nice thing to say. Im the moron, but no one is even questioning the guy that said Utley isn't good anymore. You have to give something to get something, and if anyone has read what Kevin Towers is reportedly asking for then you'd understand my proposal. If you wouldn't make the trade fine, but i name calling neccessary.— Ed Gein
- The infatuation with Jayson Werth is the latest example of how this city constantly overvalues marginally good players. Yes he has a cannon for an arm and when he's hot, he's scorching hot. But listening to a lot of folks around here, if I didn't know any better I'd think we were talking about Vlad Guerrero or something. The truth is, Werth will be 32 next year and has NEVER driven in 100 runs in a season (which Ibanez has done regularly throughout his career). And he just had a year where he was by far the worst hitter in the majors with RISP. Spend your money elsewhere, Rube
The article was comparing Werth to Ibanez and Amaro's comments regarding same. Hopefully one here has Werth in the hall of fame. And unless you're the Bankees there will not be an all star at every position. Werth has more upside, and is a better fit for the Phillies.— jp8899- amaro, you are friggin despicable— ChampAnderson
- Here's how you determine which player is more valuable. If they both have the same contract (years/salary left) and you offer them both to teams, who is preferred? It's Werth, and everyone knows it. The stats don't show how he is in the field, the support behind Howard, and the very long and cold spells that Ibanez gets into. I can't believe there is even a debate here.— mjc1
- The problem with current baseball "geniuses" is that they overanalyze statistics and need them to tell the whole story, when they cannot no matter how hard you look. RBI's is not a meaningless stat, and Werth is a great place to start. Had he hit better when given the opportunity his RBI total would be much higher---120ish, maybe? But he didn't so his total failed to live up to its potential.
These days everyone wants to talk about OBP, OPS, etc. as the be-all end-all of statistics. However getting on base and recording more total bases does not win ballgames. Case in point...1991 World Series, game 7. Lonnie Smith goes 2 for 4 with a walk. His OBP is .600; his OPS in the series is .836. He leads off the eight inning and gets on base so statistically he has done everything you can ask for in a player in todays game of stats. However he failed to score when he easily should have on a double to left by Pendleton, the next batter, on a hit and run. (Smith was fooled by the second baseman into thinking the ball was on the ground or close and only made it to 3B.) Statistically he did EVERYTHING right, according to Moneyball. He got on base and that's enough. Runs score don't matter, they just happen to guys with high OBP's, right? Yet Smith failed to score and cost his team a world series championship. For those who believe batting average, RBI's, Runs, etc., don't matter please explain to me how we show Smith's failure in terms of "modern baseball stats"?
Also...OBP is so much more important that AVG? With a runner at 3B and two outs what's better to have at the plate...a guy who walks as much as he hits and has an OBP of .410 or a guy who doesn't take a lot of walks but bats .330...who is more likely to get that runner in? OH yeah, I forget. RBI's are meaningless...— Eilex826 - I love that we're in a day and age where RBI isn't important. The team with the most "R" wins the game, so discount it if you like, but a guy not hitting when men are on base is leaving chances on the bases more than someone who does hit with men on base. I'll take the guy who hits when the chances are there over one who has a really awesome GSQ or LMR or whatever acronym we're using to measure how good hitters are now. OPS is one thing, and PPA is a nice little stat and in general helpful to the team, but so is making contact with a man on third.— B in DC
- I'll take Carlos Quentin at 27 in right field next year...— Dr. Michael
- yes, the similarity in the numbers would suprise me. If they were similar. Other than RBIs Werth seemed to be demonsterably better in each catagory. Add in his ability on the OBP and ability to pressure the pitchers on the basepaths, his ability to get to balls that Ibanez cant, and that cannon arm, its really not close, not by a mile.
- B in DC- yo're missing the point, it's not that RBI' are meaningless, it is that they are the function of a team and not an individual skill. They are completely lineup dependent. if Albert Pujols hit in this Phillies lineup the past few seasons he surely would have had a higher RBI total than he does, but should you hold that against him and suggest that someone with more RBI's is a superior player than Pujols (i.e. Ryan Howard).— Ed Gein
- Not sure if I have any interest in watching Werth patrol RF as a 38 year old with a bad contract. Just sayin'...— tdcuse
- To those who seem to think RBI are unimportant: Which of your Moneyball stats do you use to measure concentration, decision making, and general mental preparation? I'm in the abstract now after seeing Amaro criticized for, of all things, comparing players' RBI numbers. How many executives, arbitrators, and agents do you think look at RBIs when comparing players to the league? I would guess it's somewhere in the neighborhood of "all". I'm certainly not saying Werth is a bad player, just that he tanked in 2010 with RISP, which I feel is important to scoring runs.— B in DC
- @Ed Gein - Comparing two guys in the same lineup should then be fair, which is what Amaro was doing, which is what he's now being criticized for. I get that RBIs are a function os a team, because without men on base, you can't drive as many in, but aren't they also a function of the individual, and his ability to play the game situationally. Drawing a walk with a guy on second isn't as good as a hit. And seeing ten pitches and striking out with a man on third and one out is not as good as making contact. I think PPA is overrated in that way, and I think Pat Burrell is proof that GMs think the same way. His 2008 PPA was through the roof, and his 2009 contract was kinda lame. Had he driven in 20 more runs that season, he'd have made people believe he was still productive, defense aside. Werth's OPS and his speed and arm and his stats versus comparable right handed batters will ensure he makes big money. And Amaro is obviously propagandizing, (is that a word?), but to suggest RBI don't have value, to me, is absurd.— B in DC
- B in DC- you can't possible measure the things you mentioned they are all function's of randomness. It is like when people say a player has more heart or grit than another player when those things can't possible be measured. You're suggesting in order to play "situationally" a player should swing at bad pitches changing their plate approach. I believe most GM's especially the younger ones like Epstein and Jed Hoyer look behind metrics like RBI,s now in fact here's Theo saying how most front offices don't value players based on RBI's http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2009/10/theo-we-ignore-rbi-in-front-office.html— Ed Gein
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The Phillies Zone is the place for up-to-the-minute Phillies coverage from the Inquirer.
Matt Gelb
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Bob Brookover
Inquirer Baseball Columnist
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