New Phillies reliever Adams says 2012 was a struggle
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New Phillies reliever Adams says 2012 was a struggle
Bob Brookover, Inquirer Baseball Columnist
The Phillies officially announced the signing of free-agent reliever Mike Adams to a two-year, $12 million deal Thursday. The contract also includes a vesting option for 2015, which is a lot of money for a guy who admits last season was a physical struggle.
Adams, 34, is expected to take the role as closer Jonathan Papelbon's setup man next season. He has been one of the best eighth-inning relievers in the game since 2008, posting a 1.98 earned run average while striking out 311 batters in 295 innings.
The veteran righthander posted a 5-3 record with one save and an uncharacsterically high 3.27 earned run average in his only full season with the Texas Rangers last year. He was shut down for the final week of the season and underwent surgery in October for a condition known as Thoracic Outlet Syndrome.
"Last year was a struggle for me," Adams said. "The TOS was something that kicked in in early April. I didn't know what was happening. I thought I was just having some shoulder discomfort issues. The majority of the season I battled not having the same stuff I had previously.
"I didn't have a good feel for the ball. There were times when I didn't know how to grip a fastball because I didn't have the feel. That's the symptoms of TOS. By the end of the year, it really caught up to me. My arm felt like it weighed five or six pounds more than it normally did. The ball felt like it weighed three pounds."
Adams surrendered three home runs in a five-batter span in his final appearance of the season against Oakland after allowing only one home run in his previous 60 games.
"My last outing, I felt like I was pitching a shot put," he said. "The toughest part was the mental part. I was trying to fix my mechanics and I was trying to fix everything. Once I knew that I had TOS, it was a huge relief after talking to (Rangers teammate) Matt Harrison and knowing that he told me I was going to feel great after (surgery). The trainer for Texas told me that once I get a few weeks into the rehab process I'm going to feel like I have a new arm."
Adams said the rehab process has gone well so far. He thought he'd be ready for the start of spring training. He admitted that he is more concerned about being ready for the April 1 opener in Atlanta. The surgical procedure involved removing a rib.
"It’s the first rib, which is below the clavicle," Adams said. "So what happens is that first rib starts squeezing the clavicle. You have a main artery and a nerve that runs through there, so when you start squeezing those, that nerve starts shooting pain through your body. I was having headaches constantly for three weeks. My trap was hurting, my pec, the middle of my back was hurt. I was having some numbness and tingling in my bicep and forearm and it was something that was pretty bad.
"Once I had the surgery to take care of it, some of the shoulder pain was gone within two days. It took a little while longer for a lot of the other symptoms to go away, but they said in time it will. They say the nerves have been so freaked out that they needed time to recover. It wasn’t until about three or four weeks ago that I really started to feel the symptoms go away."
Shortly after the winter meetings, the Phillies sent special assistant Charley Kerfeld to watch Adams throw. The righthander obviously passed the physical administered by the Phillies Thursday and general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. acknowledged the risk involved.
"There is no question that there is some risk involved," Amaro said. "As a group, we talked to our people about the TOS and how that might affect him short term and long term, but I think ultimately we feel comfortable enough and felt comfortable with the procedure and the follow-up information that we got. While there is some risk to it, it probably was a good risk. This is a guy who can solidify our bullpen."
Comments (105)
Texas is as desperate for bullpen arms as Philly. Makes you wonder why they didn't try to resign him... hmmmmm.— Sam Crow- sam i agree with you, you took the words out of my mind. god forbid another bynam— wildgreenman
- Ever since the Phils were burned by Freddy Garcia, they have amped up the physicals on all trades (hence why Lopes never was signed from Houston).
I have confidence in the Phils whereas there wasn't much else out there for relief and if Adam's doesn't recover and need to go on DL, Phils should get financial relive and insurance $$$.— Professor1982 - Sam.....the thoracic outlet syndrome can be a real career killer for pitchers. Not many people have surgery for it. Not many doctors even know how to operate on it. Success rates can be slim. Obviously going by his last outing with 3 HRs given up over 5 batters vs. only 1 HR in his previous 60 games, something was wrong. I would assume there is some physical evidence to show that the surgery is working. In his physical therapy or regular workouts he should be able to tell there is less tingling in his hands or better "life" in his arm. The real proof will be how he starts throwing. That's the only true test and if he just had the surgery in Oct., he probably won't start throwing much til early/mid January. The Rangers probably just want to move on with cleaning house after 2 near misses at the brass ring. They've lost a lot of people this winter. Time to rotate in some new blood. As we've tried to do the last few years too.— Mark1npt
- ps....if he comes back great, the Phils need to schedule an appointment for Bastardo with Adams' surgeon because he has the same thing (and a lot of the same results).— Mark1npt
- Talking about what Adams has done "since 2008" is ridiculous. Relief pitchers fade fast. Where is he right now? Why didn't the Rangers try to re-sign him? I hope he is good. I hope Kendrick and Lannan are decent. I hope Michael Young is better than PP. I hope RUF, Revere and Brown aren't the worst OF in baseball. I hope Pap is better this season. I hope J-Stroll stops strolling. I hope Howard has worked hard this offseason to hit breaking balls. I hope Doc is fully recovered. I hope Howard has worked hard this offseason to hit lefties. I hope Utley is healed. I hope Howard has worked hard this offseason on his fielding. I hope Hamels isn't the only healthy star on the team. I hope that Nix is better than he was in 2011. I hope they add Swisher. But, really I hope the Phillies fire Amaro!!— Copper34
(sigh) it was only a matter of time before Amaro showed up. Did he show up on the Polanco article too. I haven't checked.
Texas released a lot of age and money this year. Hamilton, Napoli, Dempster, Young, Adams. They are a perfect example of how you cant win a WS on paper.
Adams is a gamble at 2 and 12. Not too long ago it seemed that Lidge was a steal at 3 and 36 !!! How'd that work out?
Keeping fingers crossed and I understand everyone's concern. But if Adams comes back strong, he is not just good. He's outstanding.— zubzub- @sigh - is someone forcing you to read the comments section of philly.com?? Amaro should show up anytime there is a Phillies discussion. Rube-the-Boob is killing the organization. As a Phillies fan, it is hard to look forward to a season knowing that the future is dim as long as that imbecile is running the show. Last year at this time, he was promising "small-ball" ... LOL. He really is a moron. As if being disciplined at the plate, working opposing pitchers, and striking out less is equivalent to "small-ball." Glad to hear that vafan (see below) thinks there is a "pretty good chance" for a second coming of Madsen/Lidge ... "due for some payback" ... Too funny. If that is the way the baseball universe works, payback ought to guarantee a WS Championship, b/c Smug Ruben has been burned by more than bullpen signings. He was burned by OF trades (Pence), trades for starters (Oswalt, the trading of Lee), signings of "star" players (Rollins, Pap), signings of scrubs (Wigginton, Nix, Thome) ... in fact, RAJ has been burned in almost every personnel decision he has ever made. — Copper34
- (deeper and more pronounced sigh) — zubzub
- I knew I would regret agreeing with you earlier. Let's clear this up: Pence was a great trade and hit well over .300 that year, Oswalt was a great trade with an unreal won-lost record with the Phils that year, Rollins has already outperformed his most recent contract and Wigginton, Nix and Thome weren't the reasons we lost last year. You have any other screen names 'cause you're starting to sound familiar. IMO, Amaro is doing as good a job as anyone out there. — vafan
- I agree with the copper that stats since 2008 are misleading. I think that'll be the only time I ever say I agree with copper. I want to add that bullpen pitching is definitely the hardest position to predict. Amaro has been burned before with bullpen signings so I think he's due for some payback. I'm hoping for the second coming of Madsen/Lidge and think it has a pretty good chance.— vafan
- All I know is, that in the next life, I'll be a middle inning left handed reliever. Not a lot of talent, not a lot of work, but an awful lot of money.— boroughboy
- So people are pissed of that Amaro signed Adams, because he had surgery. People are pissed off that Amaro traded for Young, because he is 36. People are pissed off at Amaro because he traded for Revere, who isn't an HR hitter. People are pissed off that he signed Lannan, because he isn't Grienke. Why don't you guys just take a deep breathe, and wait until they play a little baseball? Nobody can predict this damn game. Who really thought the Giants would win two titles in the last two years? Who actually remembers that Howard drove in more runs after the All-Star game last season than Pujols? Baseball is a funny game. Let's stop all the damn whining for awhile.— Paul SoTX
- Amen, dude. Bunch of whiners in this town... — Phront_Runner
- @Vfan and Zub....I agree....if Adams can come close to what he was, this could be very similar to that Madson/Lidge combo of '08. Since this is such a weird condition/surgery I have to assume the Phils brass/doctors have gone over it with a fine tooth comb.— Mark1npt
- Thank you, Paul. My thoughts exactly.— Dante1138
- I hope to god you guys aren't giving $$$ to the Phillies. It's guys like you that inspire Monty and the Blue Bloods to keep morons on staff as GM and Manager. You call it whining - I call it telling the truth about a guy who is submarining our chances. I want the Phillies to be successful. I don't think they have a GM who can do what it takes to put us in the best position to so that.
— Copper34 - These signings will be the final anchor that sink the Phillies to the basement of the league.— fmMD
- Adams is a stud. The Phillies just addressed their top area of need with this signing....it sets up the bullpen beautifully. Relax, people...in reality, there is always risk with any MLB pitcher you sign. He passed his physical...and at $12MM, I'm sure it was a thorough one.— Phront_Runner
- Turn your head and cough... TWICE!
Seriously, let's hope the physical was a bit more thorough than Freddy Garcia's lookover.
— Sam Crow - Sorry, it is two titles in the last three years for SF.— Paul SoTX
- PaulSoTx-hit the nail on the head— honomugym
- Oswalt and Pence trades were among the worst trades in past decade. Phils would have made the post-season in 2010 and 2011 (at least as wild-card) with or without either of these acquisitions (and Oswalt had an awful losing record and bad era in 2011 for a team 40 games over .500).
Accordingly the best way to evaluate them is how much they contributed to post-season success or failure.
Oswalt
2010 post-season: 1-1, 19.2 inn., 8 runs (6 er), 3hrs
2011 post-season: 0-1, 6 inn, 5 er (1hr)
total: 1-2 3.93 era, 4 hr's
Cost for 1 1/2 yrs of Oswalt: Gose, Villar (swapped for Wallace) and Happ
Pence: 2011 post-season: 4 for 19, .211
Cost for 1 year of Pence: Singleton, Cosart, Santana, and Zeid
Pence then traded for Schierholz (no longer on team) and 2 non-prospects...
in retrospect (since Oswalt and Pence are long-gone, as is Scheirholz), Rube gave up Villar, Gose, Happ, Singleton, Cosart, Santana, and Zeid (7 prospects, 6 highly rated) for non-prospects Joseph and Rosin and 1 win from Oswalt in 2010 post-season— warbiscuit - Wow, I have officially made it. I've been recognized by the almighty. As a "moron" even! You only use postseason stats when evaluating the Oswalt and Pence trades. Brilliant! But, I'm the moron. News flash - you have to get to the postseason to have postseason stats, if these are even accurate postseason stats you present. These were trades for the top available players at their positions that obviously helped the Phils. Further, you say Joseph is a non-prospect while Villar and Gose are key pieces to your argument? Again, Brilliant! Finally, I don't think these are your opinions and would say that you deliberately spew lies as Oswalt didn't have an awful 2011 nor a bad era. He did have a bad back, though, and still posted respectable numbers. "In retrospect" doesn't work for trades but I think any GM in the league makes these trades again, knowing the results. Wanna debate the Howard contract next? Colorful adjectives aren't going to get you anywhere. — vafan
- bottom line: Rube gave up Villar, Gose, Happ, Singleton, Cosart, Santana, and Zeid (7 prospects, 6 highly rated) for non-prospects Joseph and Rosin and 1 win from Oswalt in 2010 post-season— warbiscuit
- That's the bottom line in your world. The bottom line in the real world is that Pence hit .324 and Oswalt went 7-1 (I'm not a stat guy but I looked it up just for you) and both players were vital to the Phils run in their respective trade seasons. I'm hoping the players Rube gave up turn up in the show someday. That would make the trades fair, imo. So far, though, Phils made out pretty well both times. Your strategy of posting so often, repeating the same things over and over and using obnoxious adjectives, not facts, to prove your point is so childish. I am literally lol-ing right now. This is a straight up serious question - how old are you? — vafan
- had Phils still had Villar, Gose, Happ, Singleton, Cosart, Santana, and Zeid (or used them in more productive trades), they would presumably have been able to groom some of these payers to succed current aging players and/or use some of them in more prodcutive trades than what they got (1/2 decent yr from Oswalt, 1/2 decent year from Pence --mostly useless or negative production otherwise, including post-season)— warbiscuit
- Tommy Joseph is a highly rated prospect and a catcher. Last season was doomed by injuries. The previous 5, the team was as good as any in MLB. They will be just as good this season.— Paul SoTX
- Adams at 90 percent would be a pivotal acquisition taking late inning pressure off the starters and young relievers.— escapedcamden4monterey
- So he comes in to the 8th, pitches to a rightie and then has Bastardo or the other lefty Horst, pitch to any lefty. They should be OK there. But then will the 6th, 7th be fine for Aumont, Stutes, and any other reliever????— Koons
- Hey PEACEMUFFIN! Here you go with your cut and paste. Put your moves out there. Show us what your genius would produce. Any nimrod can criticize 20/20. Better yet, go root for the Mets and eliminate the clutter on these boards.— cuyatm
- This guy needed to be evaluated by a Chiropractor first before getting cut. I have a feeling this is not the last we heard of his arm pain. Here we go again!— drantonio1
- Let's complain and whine over every thing the GM does because we have to do that to feel involved in the Phils.
Fans in this town are know-it-all and pathetic in their constant over-evaluation and criticism of every franchise and its coaches and executives. Be grateful for the many years of highly competitive baseball we have had here.— hankhammer2 - @Cuyatm --don't usually respond to unqualified morons -- so you'll probably not get more -- but I' m feeling generous,and this won't take long:
"Here you go with your cut and paste." --actually this is new material --with data and stats - assembled last night becuse I see new sanctimonious moron "vafan" start his his nonsense about Pence and Oswalt disasters
"Show us what your genius would produce." --yes i did this last year, but what's the point -- is someone offering me a job as g.m.? let's make believe we're g.m. and get some vicarious pleasure from this... Rube plays this game, and he's losing...
"Any nimrod can criticize 20/20" ..but I have cut and pasted my postings from last year saying that Phils should sign Aramis Ramirez and get depth in bullpen instead of a single closer and was proven correct -- and 90% of everythign I've said for past several years has been proven accurate,not because I'm such a genius but becuase you know what, it really didn't take a genius to know that Phils needed offensive help, that Willis was a waste of time, and one coud buy a lottery ticket for $1, and that Lannan and Young have as much chance of being credible solutions as does that lottery ticket too— warbiscuit - what I actually posted LAST YR re meaningless deals: "1/16/12 yes inconsequential deal-- problem is NOT that they got Pineiro (or Willis for that matter)..problem is what they did NOT do -- all these meaningless bullpen and bench deals for low-cost garbage generally result in useless garbage (see,e.g. Baez, Schneider, Bruntlett, Herdon, Gload, etc) and Amaro has still failed to improve offense, bench and bullpen in 3 1/2 yrs - an intelligent g.m. does NOT max out his budget (as UncleStosh is correct on this score) by putting ALL his reliever budget into a single overrated and overpaid closer but instead gets multiple quality relivrs .. an intelligent g.m. does not put all his "offense" budget into a non-slugging so-called slugging 1st baseman with the rest of the offensive positions at best avg or below avg offensively and then can't afford a decent hitting 3rd baseman or any real quality on the bench, and major q's in the bullpen ... yes a team can get to the post-season just on the strength of its starting pitching but the Amaro method is 0 for 3 in October and I doubt the numbers will improve as the team is actually getting worse---meanwhile he has also squandered the Phils quality prospcts in his reckless manner of overspending for a few players, trading away all his prospects, while neglecting depth, balance, bench and bullpen ,etc and the proof is in the pudding as he has never won squat
Warbiscuit"— warbiscuit - I don't even presume to know whether or not Adams will be healthy... one would think that any orgnization, even not such a smart one, would be able to make this determination better than fans who don't have acces to medical records, prognosis,etc ... if Adams can be anywhere near what he used to be, that would obviously fill a need that the Phils have; if he can;t, and Phils didn't do their due diligence on his health, then they're even dumber than even I assume them to be— warbiscuit
- If you remove Adams' rib, don't you get Eve?— dasher
- Look at what Adams said, about the symptoms he was having, and then look back at what Bastardo was saying way back at the end of '11 as his season tanked. And again in '12. No feel for the ball, heavy arm, tired, fidgeting with mechanics, tipping pitches (lol) because he didn't know what else it could have been. His inconsistency through the minors and for all but 4 months of his ML career has been the same ailment as Adams. You would have thought that somebody on our side would have mentioned surgery to him to fix it? And why hasn't he done it yet? We have only more inconsistency coming from him in '13. How many games do we need to look at Bastardo's puzzled facial expression as he watches another 7th or 8th inning game tying HR sail out into the dark of night?— Mark1npt
- the same people complaining about adams are probably the same people complaining that Madson wasn't resigned last year.— palmyra21
- warbiscuit is right: in retrospect (since Oswalt and Pence are long-gone, as is Scheirholz), Rube gave up Villar, Gose, Happ, Singleton, Cosart, Santana, and Zeid (7 prospects, 6 highly rated) for non-prospects Joseph and Rosin and 1 win from Oswalt in 2010 post-season: All of those prospects are HOFers. btw, biscuit Joseph is the top catcher in the Phillies minors.— palmyra21
- yes, I am confident that Villar, Gose, Singleton, Cosart, Santana, Happ and Zeid would be valued by at least 29 out of 30 g.m.s as worth at least 25 times Joseph (and Rosin) who is not one of top 100 prospects in baseball, and is as highly valued as a $1 lottery ticket— warbiscuit
- Your assessment of talent is hardly credible. I will remind you of your chronic need to re-evaluate the Halladay trade- in which you stated the prospects dealt were blue-chip "Superstars"
Kyle Drabek: Chronic injury risk with a 8-15 record and a 5.34 ERA (Gads!)
Michael Taylor: Well, for all his tools that .176 BA and 56 PA's hardly qualifies as a "superstar"
Travis D'Arnaud: Jury still out, but *STILL* waiting for that very FIRST plate appearance...
..and JA Happ (35-35/ 4.69 ERA) who you cite above is the definition of "mediocre" and boasts a more inflated ERA that John Lannan!
Hope your stock portfolio is performing better then this bunch.
— Special Agent Fox Mulder - amaro should continue to strengthen the bullpen by picking up Howell. giants win because of their massive bullpen. seems like a good way to go.— high water
- Warbiscuit--sometimes you just try too hard. You just can not make this statement and maintain even a slight semblence of relevance.
***yes, I am confident that Villar, Gose, Singleton, Cosart, Santana, Happ and Zeid would be valued by at least 29 out of 30 g.m.s as worth at least 25 times Joseph (and Rosin)***
None of the seven you mention has done a thing to prove their value--in all honesty neither has Joseph--but to claim that 29 out of 30 would value them as 25X Joseph is way-way out there. Maybe the statment can be made in 5-10 years--maybe--it can not be made today.
Again--just because you repeat something over and over does not make it true.— Smoothellc - Forgot 2 things PEACEMUFFIN. One, you didn't put any of your moves out there for this year. And 2, why don't you go root for the Mets if the Phils are the most disgusting organization in 10 states according to you.— cuyatm
- i'd like to point out that this now makes two veteran players who agreed to come play for the phillies because they believe the phillies are a team that can compete for a championship. so who do you think knows more about baseball? baseball players or the doomsday squad who never stop barking about how much this team stinks— high water
- @smoothelic -- you make a valid point --not really possible to quantify value of prospects -- I figured that it was 7 vs 1 (I don't count Rosin) and that future potnetial All-Stars like Singleton, Cosart and Sanatana are valued at 3 to 4 times a Josepsh, so somehow pulled a number out of my hat of 25 to 1, though it may likely prove to be 100 to 0 (if Singelton becomes an elite slugger abd Cosart and Santana aces, and Jospeh never makes it to the majors -- which is certianly a possible scenario) or it may be 3-1 if only 3 of the 7 ever become major leaguers and Joseph unexpectedly becomes a major leaguer too--I obvioulsy didn't do my own independent talent evaluations, and am just trying to see how other g.m.s and ratings like Baseball America generally value these prospects in comparable trades...in any event it is clear that the upshot of the Pence and Oswalt deals is they lost 7 prospects, got 1 back and Oswalt and Pence did not bring tham any post-season success --and only 1/2 season of regular season each— warbiscuit
- correction: the upshot of the Pence and Oswalt deals is they lost 7 prospects, got 1 back, and Oswalt and Pence did not bring tham any post-season success --and only 1/2 season of "good" regular seasons each— warbiscuit
- I've been first in line to criticize Amaro. Most of his moves don't put him in the class of better GM's.Revere, Young, Lannan, Adams. Mediocre at best. But I have to agree with his feelings on the corner outfielder quest. Why pay through the nose fr journeyman dreck like Cody Ross? Or give a crapload of money and draft pick for Swisher? he missed out on Hamilton for all the wrong reasons and gets a flunking grade there. But now let's go with Brown and hope he has laid the groundwork with enough experience to have a decent year...and Ruf WILL have a good year. Mayberry and Nix should be 240-250 hitters and combine for 15-20 home runs. let it be. Amaro is no great shakes but in this case, he's right.— gentian
- Gose and Villar (swapped for Wallace) and Happ have of course already started contributing at the major league level and have a quantifiable value— warbiscuit
- gentian -- I don't disagree with you -- he's basically messed up royally already and it's not clear what can be done to remedy this mess— warbiscuit
- Let's hope so, RAJ. To me the Phillies are making mistakes by evaluating what guys have done since '08 and projecting that forward for guys who are in their 30's. Hopefully this is a good one, at least it's just two years.— PhillySubsMac
- He's either Qualls or Madson. So bored that I want the season to start and find out.— jtcmine
- @zafan :
Oswalt went 10-11 with a 3.69 era in 2011 for a team that went 102-60 and thus went 92-49 if you compute their record without him ... in 2011 he was one of the worst players on the team and they carried him ... indeed in 2010 Brett Myers had a much superior season to Oswalt (and was winning for Astros, a team whom Oswalt couldn't buy a win for) so Phils could have just re-signed Myers and done much better than trade 3 prospects for 1/2 year of decent pitchign from Oswalt in 2010..
and I can say with all certainty that getting into a "debate" with anyone who would defend the Howard contract is like debating whether the earth is round or square, and anyone who insists in defending the indefensible is indeed a hopeless sanctimonious moron. I would also say that if you asked any baseball sportwriter, journalist or commentator (outside of Phila), and any person who works in any front office in baseball (outside of Phila), he/she would call the Howard contract one of the worst in the histroy of baseball, inexplicable, without any semblance of logic and that any blogger who would defend such a contract is full of Sh#$— warbiscuit - Thank you for proving my earlier point. You are incapable of a debate without name calling which leads me to believe you are a juvenile. As well, you refer to stats in bits and pieces that help to prove a completely useless point. I stand by my comment that the Oswalt trade was a good one. I don't need stats to tell me Oswalt helped the Phils win major league games in 2010 and 2011. This is kinda fun. My Howard argument is coming soon. Headed out to catch some football. — vafan
- and @zafan you sanctimonious moron: since you like to take my quick reference list of 40 errors of commission and omission that Rube did or did not do --that caused them to have post-season failure and become an irrelevant team, and boil my list down to my mocking the signing of Willis, once again here is what I said about the pointless Willis signing: "1/16/12 yes inconsequential deal-- problem is NOT that they got Pineiro (or Willis for that matter)..problem is what they did NOT do -- all these meaningless bullpen and bench deals for low-cost garbage generally result in useless garbage (see,e.g. Baez, Schneider, Bruntlett, Herdon, Gload, etc) and Amaro has still failed to improve offense, bench and bullpen in 3 1/2 yrs - an intelligent g.m. does NOT max out his budget (as UncleStosh is correct on this score) by putting ALL his reliever budget into a single overrated and overpaid closer but instead gets multiple quality relivrs .. an intelligent g.m. does not put all his "offense" budget into a non-slugging so-called slugging 1st baseman with the rest of the offensive positions at best avg or below avg offensively and then can't afford a decent hitting 3rd baseman or any real quality on the bench, and major q's in the bullpen ... yes a team can get to the post-season just on the strength of its starting pitching but the Amaro method is 0 for 3 in October and I doubt the numbers will improve as the team is actually getting worse---meanwhile he has also squandered the Phils quality prospcts in his reckless manner of overspending for a few players, trading away all his prospects, while neglecting depth, balance, bench and bullpen ,etc and the proof is in the pudding as he has never won squat"— warbiscuit
- Again proving my point that nobody is gonna reply to a 40 point post. Well, almost nobody. I think it was smoothlic that had you at 50%. So, you're average. I stopped reading after that since everything you say is a repeat. — vafan
- when Rube gave Howard the extension, there were 2 more years to go in his contract -- the only reason to do an early deal is to get some kind of salary discount in return for the player gaining security... not only didn't Rube get a discount but he paid a premium ridiculously assuming that Howard would hit over 45 hrs and 140 rbi's for another 7 years through 2016- an "assumption" that would more likely be made by an 11-year old gawking fan than an intelligent objective adult... any objective observer would expect that Howard would do exactly as he has done given his age, body type, skills, etc --decline, suffer injuries, etc -- and never come close to repeating his early year success when teams didn't yet know how to pitch to him (no fastballs, nothing in strike zone, lefty reliever in any big spot),,,the contract was indefensible not only becuase it was too much money but because it wasn't even necessary for Rube to do any deal yet instead of waiting another 2 years (at which time Howard indeed had a torn achilles and wasn't worth much of anything)— warbiscuit
- I think Amaro is much smarter than you, me and every other poster here. You can second guess his moves after the fact, it's what these boards, in part, are here for. Amaro saw the market 3 years down the road and realized that 8 and 10 year deals were on the horizon. He locked a very good player up for 5 years past his remaining 2 years. Howard was killing it at the time. You say Amaro expected 48 hrs and 140 rbis every season but nobody, not even the most optimistic, would "expect" that kind of production. But, that's what you do - exaggerate to the point where you lose credibility. What Amaro expected was high production. Look at the deals Fielder and Pujols signed this year. Compared to these deals, Amaro got Howard locked up for a relatively short time frame and there is value (higher salary) in that. We all know Howard has not lived up to the new contract, so far. A healthy Ryan Howard changes the Phils lineup in a big way. If you can't admit that than you have zero credibility. I look forward to a 2013 lineup with Young or Ruf or a TBD slugging hitter in the on deck circle behind a healthy Howard. We have not seen the last of Ryan Howard. Flame away. — vafan
- Oswalt went 10-11 with a 3.69 era in 2011 for a team that went 102-60 and thus went 92-49 if you compute their record without him ... in 2011 he was one of the worst players on the team and they carried him ... indeed in 2010 Brett Myers had a much superior season to Oswalt (and was winning for Astros, a team whom Oswalt couldn't buy a win for) so Phils could have just re-signed Myers and done much better than trade 3 prospects for 1/2 year of decent pitchign from Oswalt in 2010..
BETTER YET, they wouldn't have needed to make a costly trade for Oswalt had they simply not given Lee away for nothing 1/2 a year earlier!— warbiscuit - Amaro signed Oswalt to win a 2010 world f'in championship, not for 1/2 a good year. Further, his 2011 season wasn't "worst on the team". There you go again with the exaggerations. Bringing up Myers and Lee? Why don't you introduce Verlander to your argument while you're at it? — vafan
- they gave away Lee to save $9 mil., then agreed to give Blanton $24 mil and traded 3 prospects for Oswalt ! that anyone can defend those steps is beyond th pale....Rube should have been fired there and then!— warbiscuit
- Crapped the bed on Lee, everyone including Amaro knows it. Is that all you got? Blanton was a fair deal relative to the available players, market value and minor league talent. Regarding the Oswalt deal, prospects are prospects when you have a world series staring you in the face. — vafan
- if Pence were worth trading 4 top prospects for, how come Rube was able to net a single non-prospect when discarding him? who's the moron?— warbiscuit
- Everybody knows you can't compare players traded for the same player at different times. In this case, Pence was much better when we got him then when we traded him. Landscapes change daily in baseball let alone a year later. BTW - did you mean to say Tommy Joseph is a non-prospect? The 2nd round pick? Your zero credibility is now in the negative. — vafan
- had Rube NOT discarded Lee for peanuts, they would have likely won the 2010 World Series, wouldn't have needed to trade for Oswalt or Pence and would have 7 more prospecst assets to use as assets for other more productive trades .. spend high, sell low methods is how you destroy a franchise— warbiscuit
- Amaro completely crapped the bed on that one. Disagree, though, on wb's crystal ball analysis of 9 players. Obviously, the franchise has not been destroyed. — vafan
- Gose (traded for Wallace)--age 22 -may be future Bourn or Revere - made major league debut with Toronto
Villar --age 21 -ranked top 100 prospect by Baseball America
Singleton --last ranked #34 best prospect
Domingo Santana -- 23 hrs, 97 rbis for A for Astros, etc etc etc
Joseph is not highly ranked..— warbiscuit - Adams, ready by May or even June 1, fine by me. Bastardo was too confident in his roster spot the first half of last season. Now it's gone and he, Aumont and a few others can strive for the set-up role that Adams has. That's the nature of Major League Baseball.
I would have spent the Adams money on Hamilton or Fisher and nailed a corner outfield spot. But it's true, the outfield market went crazy; Victorino's three-year deal is for more than Rollins' was last year, and so many post-ers ripped Amaro (wrongly) for that one.
— eman - We might win the division if the pitching staff has an ERA under 2.0— 4thand10
- Cosart -- rated #50 best prospect 2012, age 22, had AAA success last year— warbiscuit
- Tommy Joseph - .250 at AA
Seth Rosin -- acquired with Joseph for Pence -- 4.08 at advanced level A
translation --don't expect to see either at major league level— warbiscuit - vafan: "I don't need stats to tell me Oswalt helped the Phils win major league games in 2010 and 2011."
yes, stats and facts are very inconvenient..
Oswalt 2011: 10-11 3.69 era
Phillies without Oswalt, 2011 92-49
Oswalt post-season 2010-2011: 1-2, 3.93 era, 13 runs (11 earned), 4 hr's
Cost for 2 months of "good" pithcing (Aug-Sept 2010): Gose (future Bourn or Revere), Villar (ranked top 100 prospect), Happ (projected no. 4 or 5 starter)— warbiscuit - You obviously misunderstood. Stats only support my argument but I don't need them to tell me Oswalt helped the Phils. Next question! — vafan
- definition of sanctimonious hypocrite:
Vafan: "Your strategy ... obnoxious adjectives, not facts, ... is so childish. I am literally lol-ing right now. .... how old are you?"
"You are incapable of a debate without name calling which leads me to believe you are a juvenile"— warbiscuit - Vafan: "you deliberately spew lies as Oswalt didn't have an awful 2011 nor a bad era.. Your strategy of .....using obnoxious adjectives, not facts..."
"I'm not a stat guy but I looked it up just for you"
"I don't need stats to tell me"...
Oswalt 2011: 10-11 3.69 era
yes facts and stats can be inconvenient, so if you don't like them call the ones using them a "liar" and use alternative insults ("juvenile" "lol")..
thou doth protest too much, you ignorant sanctimonoious fraud
vafan: "I don't need stats— warbiscuit - Not sure what you mean here. Are you standing by your comment that 10-11, 3.69 era is "awful"? Did I hurt your feelings by calling you out? Can you still not present a decent argument without name calling? — vafan
- Warbiscuit, your insane amount of posts that bash everything are both pointless and mind boggling. And still waiting for your great plan of what shoulda been done. As in present and future moves. Enough with the past.
Do you work, are you in school. Unemployed and out of your lithium. Just gotta know with all these endless redundant posts where you find the time. Dazzle us with your age, job and reason to go on and on... We get it, everyone sucks and can do know wrong. Do you enjoy annoying 95% of those who actually appreciate baseball. Clearly you don't, and I'm quite sure with your paranoia with management that if you had a boss you mouthed off and were fired so let's here it. What do you do oh wise one. And why not just GO AWAY. Your posts are the least intelligent on any board I've ever read, and an embarrassment to the human race. GO AWAY troll. Seriously. Leave the board.— WFChamps - What do you do dope. Enlighten us and don't deflect the question as usual— WFChamps
- vafan: "I think it was smoothlic that had you at 50%. So, you're average" ..
actually if I list 40 awful Rube errors, and a Rube-defender concedes that 50% of then were indeed awful then that just means that there were at least 20 awful moves ..the other 20 weren't "good" moves, just "defensible" according to those who disagree with me,,, and I assert thate all 40 were indefensible and i could easily list another 20 if i wanted to (but didn;t want to get sidetracked into whether, for example, the Rollins or Kendrick deals will prove to be bad or good, so didn't list them).. but you're not a "facts" or stats guy, we know and you don't like insults other than "liar" and "juvenile" becuase they sound more mature than El Dopey or Stool as used by some of your fellow apologists for incompetence— warbiscuit - In hindsight, smoothellc gave you way too much credit. I didn't need to read your post and already know you were less than that. BTW - you don't need any more time to recognize the Rollins deal. He has already outperformed it. Not a facts guy? Did I say that? There you go again. Never called you a liar, I said you spew lies. Purely a factual observation, not an insult. Never called you juvenile, said your name calling led me to believe you were a juvenile then I flat out asked how old you were because I truly think you are a juvenile, as in younger than 18. Credibility, man. Look at gaining some. — vafan
- While @warbiscuit is quite the prolific writer, he's 100% correct on two fronts: 1) Many very good prospects were squandered in bad trades that in the end made this team weaker and much older, and 2) The Howard contract extension with 2 years to go on his previous contract was completely asinine. The value of that contract was ridiculous even BEFORE he began his downward spiral. This was the absolutely worst contract in Phillies history. That contract will continue to stink even worse with each passing year. Buyers remorse at the very highest level. If healthy, we'll be fortunate to get 35/125/.264 (with his usual 190 or > SOs) from him this season, and that may indeed be wishful thinking.— joemotrucks
- in my view, you can only complain about the howard contract if you complained as soon as it was signed. when signed, it looked like phils got howard at market value when some people were projecting 30 million dollar players.
say one thing- sure glad you guys aren't in the dugout. all this negativity won't do anything to help howard have a good season. - "in my view, you can only complain about the howard contract if you complained as soon as it was signed."
Don't be silly.
A couple things, when the deal was signed, most thinking people said "good for Howard, but why would Amaro sign the deal two years early, there are too many risks". Those people were right.
The Pence & Oswalt deals seemed good at the time, but on reflection, Oswalt's poor physical health (which the GM should be smart enough to know) made this a bad deal from the start. And Oswalt did nothing to help the Phillies that year except you could claim he was an inning eater.
In hindsight very few of Amaro's deals worked, and the Phillies are a mess right now. It will take 4 more years to dig out of this hole.— fmMD - Adams chose phillies over the nationals. check hot stove and the nats were the other nl east team looking at Adams.
- note: I conceded numerous timesthat Phls got 2 good months out of each of Oswalt (Aug-Sept 2010) and Pence (aug-sept 2011).. but they would have made post-season without them and Oswalt and Pence were bad in post-seasons failures in 2010 and 2011, so not worth the 7 prospects (6 of them highly ranked)... moreover, for the hundredth time, with any kind of foresight wahtsoebver, NEITHER deal was even necessary --rube was expected to sign an outfielder to replace Werth before 2011, not trade top prospects in panic move for Pence mid-season, and rube could have kept Myers or acquired another starter before 2010 even if he were so hel-bent at discarding Lee -and wouldn't have needed Oswalt— warbiscuit
- In both cases, Amaro was trying to win the world f'in championship not just make the postseason. When you are in that position, you go for it. Even in hindsight they were good moves considering the motivation. — vafan
- that's all folks --wchamps - what I "do" is spit out objective baseball anaylysis when sportwiriters in this town don't do their job; I don't generally respond to insults and stupidity unless it's phrased in a really sanctimonious manner like vafan, so sorry you dont get a real response becuase your insults don't sound sophisticated enough— warbiscuit
- Aw, are we supposed to feel sorry for you now? Objective can't be any farther from your wheelhouse. All you do is insult. For the record, I challenged you tonight only because I had the time and motivation. I read here every day but rarely comment due to other considerations. I felt the need to bring civility back to this forum. — vafan
- @warbiscuit, just to offer you a bit of constructive criticism (which you can feel free to ignore)....If you'd tone down the verbosity and negativity a bit, you would be a much more effective contributor. You have a ton of baseball knowledge and frequently make lot of good points.— joemotrucks
- If you push past the fact that WarBiscuit rubs a lot of you the wrong way, he's dead-on correct.
Amaro simply isn't that good, and the Phillies will get worse before they get better.— fmMD - Let's here you're offseason plan. And what you do. Answer a question. Pretty please. Without bringing up the past because guess what, for better or worse, it's too late can't undo it.
— WFChamps - Here's the offseason plan:
1) Face one critical reality - howard and utley aren't any good any more. They're not going to get better, they'll simply get worse and worse until they can't play
2) Take your lumps and get rid of them.
3) Take your lumps and expect 2 years of cr*p baseball from the Phils. You might as well, because we got cr*p baseball last year, and we'll get a double dose this year
4) Face the fact that Halladay is cooked at a #1 starter
5) Face the fact that Lee looks like he might be cooked as well.
6) Hunker down, draft some top guys, and hope that in 4 more years you have a contending team again.— fmMD - You sound like a guy with a lot of time in front of you, or are you planning to wait patiently for another Utley, Howard and Rollins crop or the like to sprout in 4 yrs down the road? That doesn't happen every four years. — escapedcamden4monterey
- The plan? H*ll, that's easy. First, Montgomery fires Amaro for gross stupidity. Next, he hires a GM that has a brain. That GM hires a competent manager who hires competent coaches and submits a line up that makes sense. Since the window is effectively closed, that new GM trades Howard the K and all the other dead wood Amaro has compiled over the years for high level prospects. Acquire quality youth, and expect to contend within a few years. Most fans would buy this plan, if the man leading the plan had a clue as to how to build a team. Of course, there are sundry additional moves a competent GM makes along the way. There's your plan.
- How many years before we can expect a winner with your plan? — escapedcamden4monterey
- 2012 was a struggle? You haven't seen anything yet. Wait until you've played for Charlie Manuel.
- @ghost, you're act is kinda stale on the whining, but you're right, Manuel is riding the winning horse until it breaks down. Callison was a humble man.— escapedcamden4monterey
- I don't consider my opinions concerning Amaro's lack of talent as whining, but you are correct about one thing -- Johnny Callison was indeed a very humble man and one of my favorite Phillies' ball player back in the day.
- The truth is, folks, Ruben and his friends took WB's Batman lunchbox, ate the food, broke the thermos, and crushed the tin. WB's been crying about it for 31 years now, but finally got his chance to get back at him when he got the GM job. Thus the constant rants. He not only says the same thing everyday, now he's saying them every year. Hey, PEACEMUFFIN Still no answers as to what you would do this year. Only 100 rehashes of hindsight.— cuyatm
- Guys - it's OK to love the Phillies. But, that shouldn't get in the way of logic. warbiscuit has, in the past, posted things he thought the Phillies should do. I can certainly understand why he doesn't bother doing that now. I say that because, objectively, this team looks pretty hopeless. The GM has done irreversible harm to their short-term chances. Making suggestions about what to do this off-season is like making suggestions about a fresh coat of paint on the Titanic. warbiscuit has been right about RAJ for a couple years now. He probably can't understand why the rest of the fan-base doesn't get it. After all, it won't get better for the Phillies until they have a better evaluater of talent in the GM's office. So, maybe a real Phillies fan rants about RAJ so that the rest of the fans wake up and realize that he has been really bad since he took over a team that had just won a World Series.— Copper34
- Wrong. He took over and first locked up superstars in their prime. I doubt he knew that Ut would develop ostoarthritis or Howard would rupture an achilles wrecking last season. Shot to win WS in 2010, traded for LEE. Traded garbage for him. Great move, lost to Yanks.
2011 needed RH bat, went out and got the best available Pence, coming off allstar year. Phils fell short to ws champs stl. Genius Sabean did the same move this year, and Pence had a good playoffs and helped out.
Trades for Halladay, that was huge. Weve all enjoyed watching the best last few years until he got injured. Drabek is toast, Darnaud netted Dickey - so it makes sense. Now needed to get young and get a real leadoff hitter, does both with speedy young Revere. Manager too dumb to lead him off until July tho I bet. Point is he makes big moves, still the players have to come through in the offseason. Young and Adams great values. Those saying to dump Utley and Howard are clueless. This team cant rebuild like the Marlins. No one will go to the games, sell outs will end, budgets will plummet, and back to 20 years of sucking. (or 40 like the eagles.) Have to feed the machine, and Amaro has done a great jon IMO. And the farm has plenty of good prospects, if you actually follow. We got Lee, Halladay, Pence, Oswalt, Young, Adams wah wah. Nothing makes you happy people. BTW, getting back to the WS back to back years was incredible, and only happened because of Amaro/Lee. wasn't going to be 3 years in a row anyway.— WFChamps
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The Phillies Zone is the place for up-to-the-minute Phillies coverage from the Inquirer.
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