Who's No. 2? Amaro on Hamels, and his contract
Two pertinent questions involving Cole Hamels:
Who's No. 2? Amaro on Hamels, and his contract
David Murphy, Daily News Staff Writer
Two pertinent questions involving Cole Hamels:
1) If the Phillies started a playoff series tomorrow, would he start Game 2?
2) What will happen when his contract expires at the end of this season?
I posed versions of both questions to Ruben Amaro Jr. today. First, his contract. Hamels is in the final year of a three-year extension he signed after the 2008 season. But he can't become a free agent until after 2012. Which leaves several possibilities. One, the Phillies sign him to a long-term deal before arbitration. Two, the two sides end up before an arbitration panel. Three, the two sides come to terms on a shorter deal, perhaps one year, perhaps two or three.
I asked Amaro if it was possible that something happens before the end of this season.
"I don't know," Amaro said. "It's pretty clear that we would like to have Hamels beyond his free agent years here. That's not even an issue. But we'll address it, hopefully at the appropriate time."
As for where Hamels currently stands on the pecking order in the Phillies rotation, Amaro understandably deferred.
"I'll let (the coaching staff) handle that one," he said. "But he's awfully good. He's pitched great. Hopefully we are in that situation where we have those decisions to make. I think a lot of it depends on who has the hot hand, who's been the sharpest, if we get to that situation. But that's so far down the road."
That doesn't mean we can't ponder the question.
Between 2009 and this season, Cliff Lee has made 25 starts as a Phillie. So below are Halladay and Hamels' numbers in their last 25 starts. Roy Oswalt has only started 22 games as a Phillie, so we used those numbers:
| Starter | GS | IP | IP/GS | ERA | K/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | XBH/9 | WHIP |
| Halladay | 25 | 187 | 7.5 | 2.65 | 8.5 | 1.2 | 0.8 | 1.97 | 1.054 |
| Hamels | 25 | 170.1 | 6.8 | 2.59 | 9.5 | 1.9 | 0.6 | 2.38 | 0.998 |
| Lee | 25 | 166.2 | 6.7 | 3.51 | 9.4 | 1.6 | 0.8 | 2.86 | 1.194 |
| Oswalt | 22 | 137.2 | 6.3 | 2.22 | 6.9 | 2.3 | 0.6 | 2.35 | 1.053 |
As you can see, Hamels ranks first or second in nearly every peripheral category. He leads the Big Four in strikeouts and baserunners allowed and is tied with Oswalt for the lead in home runs allowed. He is second in innings-per-start, and actually has a better ERA over his last 25 starts than Halladay does (Oswalt's 2.22 through 22 starts is tops).
Halladay is a prototypical Game 1 starter. He is an absolute workhorse, and he rarely lets games spin out of control. He also has plenty of experience pitching on short rest.
Lee has the sizzle factor, given the way he has dominated the Yankees over the last couple offseasons. But Hamels was pretty dominant himself throughout the 2008 run. And who can forget his complete game victory over the Reds in last year's NLDS finale?
Right now, I'd still go Halladay-Lee-Hamels-Oswalt. But there is a lot of season left.
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Great article, Murphy! I was under the assumption that Hamels could walk after this year, thankfully not. It's just a shame the Phils ain't hitting like they did in 07...they'd be up by a dozen games in this division.— kjuggs77
Another question - with the days of rest you can use 3 pitchers except maybe for one or two games. Do you send one of the 4 to the bullpen in the playoffs?— burholme- Cole should be your number one,case closed.— littleman163
- pay him $20M per year for 5 years— shawnmac
- Just realized I transposed my rotation. I'd actually still pitch Lee in Game Two and Hamels in Game Three. Fixed it.— David_Murphy
- Discuss contracts for jocks in the business section— retzlaff
- He's pitching better than any of the others right now but if you tell him that and start him in game 1, it would mess up his head and he'll get shelled. Roy starts game 1 because he'll handle game 1 pressure better. Leave Hamels where he is unless someone is running bad or pitching hurt. Then pay him. Great article, perfect timing.
- The concept that the best pitcher pictches game 1 and the 2nd best game two, etc is based upon faulty logic. The point is to win the series. Therfore, you should pick the best pitcher to beat the other teams pitcher. If I was to face the Phillies, I would pitch my number 4 pitcher against the Phillies number 1. If I win, that is whip cream on top. I would then pitch my best pitcher against the Philles number 2, and my number 2 against the Phillies number 3 - thereby gaining a pitching advantage. The concept of my best against your best is antiquated thinking.— Bobphxville
- "Lee has the sizzle factor, given the way he has dominated the Yankees over the last couple offseasons" Freudian slip? He certainly did dominate the Yankees this past offseason - before signing here!
- Simple really. Oswalt is gone, Hamels gets some of his cash. That wasn't that hard now was it?— twpman
- Actually not so simple. Oswalt may be gone next year, but most of his salary was paid by Houston. And Cliff Lee's salary escalates from $11 million this year to $25 million next year. Having a third starter over $20 million takes "simple" out of the equation as long as we have the albatross contract of a marginally productive first baseman for the next 6 years. — tommy2times
- No 20 million dollar contract is easy obviously. Amaro will get it done Hamels will remain a Phillie. The young studs on the farm will have to produce to make this easier but fill in two young arms at the end of the rotation and have the hitters fill in around the aging core and this team stays competetive. The shot at Howard was low...13 homers 49 RBI and check the book he has 0 errors playing first. Post again when he's carrying this team through September into October yet again. — Phillyphan26
- I think this question is irrelevant. They all rock!— CaptainCrunch
- He's pushing Halladay for #1 slot and will have a solid 10 years in front of him. Signing him to a long term is a no-brainer and should be done quickly.— Northcountry
Let's play at least 5/6 of the season before we worry about setting up the post-season rotation, please. Because we're not starting the post-season for several months, I'm not sure how "pertinent" it is to explore that question with Hamels.— pigday31- I guess Hamels head was messed up in game 1 of the WS in 08. Sometimes these theories people have about Cole are just plain wrong! Cole can handle pressure! I think he has earned the right to pitch in the postseason and I can't imagine a scenario where he would not. But Lee makes the money and trumps Cole as far as the pitching order and I think that's the case in the regular season as well. I wouldn't have a problem with any of the 3 in any order and should be determined by the team they are facing. If it's the Reds, I want Cole to clinch game 3.— re6035
Comment removed.- Comment removed.
- If his numbers continue, he has earned the right to be the number two starter. However, other things go into it, ie. like last year with his record in Cincy being so good, we wanted him to pitch there, so...— PhilliefaninAZ
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- Maybe he calls people by last name...Haven't you ever heard of the Ders?— MFPhils
- I agree! Halladay-Lee-Hamels in the playoffs; Oswalt out of the 'pen or however we need him. We definitely want Hamels here. I'd for sure sign him to 5 years and use the Oswalt money -- and more. Use the Lidge and Ibanez money to find players who can hit. We've forgotten that scoring runs helps, too.— eman
- Gotta keep Hamels somehow. The way he's pitching he's going to cost a lot but you can't let this guy go.— s
- Oswalt for President!— beerflow
- Great fodder for Hamels agent....He should just tell RAJ, jr now that he will happilee accept the same contract as Cliff just received.— ATrucksess
- Bang on the money,Murphy...now, RAJ, do the right thing and dont f*** around.— Rando
- Where's the trade Cole Hamels crowd at now?— booman55
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- Littleman, saying Hamels is No. #1 is ridiculous. Buy a clue. Success is measured by consistency; how long you excel.
It's just like folks annointing Madson a top-notch closer after two good months.— VicM - it will be interesting to see how this developes...no doubt the Phillies want to keep him if he keeps pitching this way...I would expect a 2 or 3 year deal before this hits arbitration...but would be a pleasant surprise to see the Phillies go long term on him— danielboyer
- Why can't we be happy that Hamels has grown up before our eyes. He is a pitcher capable of 250 career wins...(I'm saying 300 is almost impossible anymore with all the specialization) But Hamels is benefitting from not being "The Guy." He was too young to be "The Guy"... The benefit of working with his mentors "Doc-Le-Walt" is allowing him to find his true pitching soul. He is now a bonafide Ace. He just sits fourth in a rotation because he has to be somewhere. As far as signing him to an extension... DON'T WAIT!— Prausch
- increase the tv rights so you can afford the payroll but do not over pay for player howard is paid too much— hannigan
- Bottom line, the Phils have four number ones. Years went by not that long ago where they didn't have ONE one. But David, I still think they need to go right-left-right-left and if so, then you're discussing flipping Lee and Hamels. And I just don't see that happening, do you?— PhillySubsMac
- But Hamels? Wow...we were there Wed and he was obviously great and has been. Nice they have him for at least a year but they've been good to him so far and it'd be great to see him signed for another 3-5 years.— PhillySubsMac
- In a four game rotation and a seven game series, the Game 3 pitcher would be in line to pitch Game 7. I'd want my second or even my ace pitching that game. You shouldn't "have" to pitch your ace Game 1. I'd want either Hamels or Halladay pitching Game 7 depending on whether I'm facing a heavily right or heavily left handed rotation. I'd agree with your rotation David: Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Oswalt. If it's the seventh game of the World Series, wouldn't you want someone who has a ring and a World Series MVP on the mound?— schmolik
- You have to give Cole a long term deal. Forget he's the only one of the "four aces" with a World Series ring, he's the youngest by five years. Long term, he's by far the most important. He could be in a Phillie uniform for the next 10 years if they want.— schmolik
- I don't think there should be a question, Hamels should be #1. He is a NLCS MVP and a World Series MVP. Until someone else shows they can pull that off, I want a healthy Cole out there more than any of the other guys. He is unhittable. The Roys and Lee, as good as they are, can be hit.— jtj06
- Maybe a better question that who pitches "second", how about who bats second? I know it was just one game but I kind of like Shane #2 and Placido #5 although would you rather have more speed in the two hole or a guy with a better batting average?— schmolik
Vic #2 & Polly #5 looks pretty good right now.— verve- Sure Amaro is terrible. All he did was build this great rotation. Big Roy, Cliff, Cole Oswalt. That 4 would compare with any 4. Then add Polanco, Contreras. Also no foolish Eaton, Garcia deals. Still many have to criticize.....Dom Brown has a better idea of the strike zone then Howard. Forget 2-3 year deal for Cole. If you want to sign him figure 5 years. Also big need to sign Madson.— Don w
- Sure Amaro is terrible. All he did was build this great rotation. Big Roy, Cliff, Cole Oswalt. That 4 would compare with any 4. Then add Polanco, Contreras. Also no foolish Eaton, Garcia deals. Still many have to criticize.....Dom Brown has a better idea of the strike zone then Howard. Forget 2-3 year deal for Cole. If you want to sign him figure 5 years. Also big need to sign Madson.— Don w
- Hamels has refused the ball several times when asked to pitch on short rest. For that reason he cannot pitch ion games 1 or 2.— ccheung
- what a nice position to be in, arguing about playoff pitching rotations in early June. How's the saying go? Don't count your chickens...?— Sam Crow
