Phillies pay steep price for Revere
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Phillies pay steep price for Revere
David Murphy, Daily News Staff Writer
The Phillies wrapped up the winter meetings by landing a center fielder who they hope will hold down the position for at least the next four years. There are plenty of indications that Ben Revere can be that man. But to acquire him, the Phillies made themselves weaker in the rotation, at least for time being, by sending Vance Worley to the Twins. They also parted with a player who entered the 2012 season as a Top 100 prospect as rated by Baseball America.
So what's the verdict?
As we noted, there are two issues to evaluate in this deal. Clearly, there is a lot to like about Revere. He has the reputation as a defensive whiz, with speed and base-running ability comparable to Michael Bourn, whom the Phillies decided against pursuing on the free agent market because of his asking price. Those abilities alone virtually guarantee that he will be, at the very least, an everyday major leaguer. His arm, according to scouts, is one of the weakest in the game, but in center field that should not be a huge issue. Everybody seems to agree that Revere can play stellar defense at the major league level.
The other characteristic Revere has that convinced the Phillies to pay a premium price is his youth. He does not turn 25 until May 3, and he has just 1 year and 149 days of service, meaning he won't be eligible for arbitration until after 2013 at the earliest. That means that the Phillies will pay their center fielder somewhere in the neighborhood of $515,000 this season, which obviously frees up money to address their other needs.
Other positives:
-Over the last two seasons he has stolen 74 bases while being thrown out just 18 times.
-His batting average, slugging percentage, and on base percentage all increased last year, from .267/.310/.309 to .294/.333/.342.
-He is a contact hitter, striking out in only 9.4 percent of his plate appearances, more than 10 percent better than league average.
-He is regarded as an excellent baserunner. Of the 14 times he has been on first base when a double has been hit, he has scored eight times. And he has scored on second from a single on 32-of-36 opportunities.
-He bunted for a base hit nine times last season.
-Away from pitcher-friendly Target Field, he has a career .297 batting average and .341 on base percentage.
It isn't a stretch of the imagination to see Revere developing as Bourn did, increasing his on base percentage and power to the point where he is a an average-to-slightly-above-average major league hitter, which, when combined with his defense and baserunning, would likely make him a huge bargain for the remainder of his time until club control.
That being said, the Phillies seem to have given up a ton to get Revere. That was my first reaction, and it seems to be pretty universal. While Revere makes plenty of contact, his walk rate and extra base hit rate are well below league average. The walk rate particularly is concerning, because Revere profiles as a leadoff hitter, and you'd like your leadoff hitter to reach base at least 34 percent of the time. If he cannot do that, you'd at least like for him to hit for power. The Phillies are putting a lot of stock in Revere's potential to develop. If Revere does not improve and Worley ends up becoming a middle-of-the-rotation fixture in Minnesota, it will be tough to argue that this trade is a win.
Which brings up the critical part of the equation: who replaces Worley in the rotation? The Phillies clearly plan on addressing the new vacancy on the free agent market. So it is possible that they could end up with an upgrade at the back end of the rotation, particularly when you consider the fact that Worley has never reached 150 innings in a season and struggled a bit with his conditioning last year (and is coming off a tough season that ended with minor elbow surgery). But their first concern is a right-handed power bat, and Michael Young does not count (reports had the Phillies attempting to deal for the Texas infielder, with Young needing to waive his no-trade clause to facilitate it).
I have long advocated Nick Swisher as the guy, but I have not heard anything from anybody that would indicate the Phillies have serious interest in him (Swisher is a switch-hitter, by the way). Josh Hamilton is a left-handed bat. Beyond those two, we drop down to players like Cody Ross and Scott Hairston, both of whom have power, but neither of whom reach base enough to be considered an impact player. Ryan Ludwick had been rumored to be on the verge of signing with the Reds, but apparently that has not happened yet. So he is available. The Phillies could also try to swing another trade.
A lot could depend on what kind of starter they are targeting. It wouldn't surprise me to see them make a play for Ryan Dempster, who has a pretty good relationship with pitching coach Rich Dubee from their time together with the Marlins. He is 36 years old and, reportedly, looking for a three-year deal, but that hasn't always deterred the Phillies in the past. He has experience as a closer too, for what that is worth. The top of the market features Zack Greinke, Anibal Sanchez and Edwin Jackson, followed by guys like Dempster, Kyle Lohse, Shaun Marcum, Brandon McCarthy and Joe Saunders. It's hard to believe that the Phillies would have enough money to land a Greinke or Sanchez and still have enough to add an impact bat and address the bullpen. But you never know.
Someone like Dempster, Lohse or McCarthy would make a lot of sense, particularly the first two.
Long story short, it is too early to assign a pass/fail mark to this trade. But when you consider the fact that the Nationals gave up one top pitching prospect for Denard Span, who is a vastly more accomplished and talented hitter, you can make an argument that the Phillies might have been better off using Worley to try to build a package for Span.
The question isn't just what did Worley and May land the Phillies in Revere, but what could have it landed them elsewhere?
We'll have to let the offseason play out before judging any further.
Comments (122)
You haters are idiots. We got a good top of the order hitter and CF for one unproven pitcher and one guy who's had a little success. What's the problem? Vance Worely is a 90 mph guy who showed fat and ineffective in 2012 and posted a ERA over 4. His type of pitcher grows on trees. He's nothing special. Trevor May is a unknown commodity. We are not trading away a blue chipper. Remember Kyle Drabek? In 3 seasons since his trade, he has 8 wins in the majors and an ERA over 5. Calm Down everyone. This was a good move for the Phils.— express- boy we are so gullable in philly, we eat whatever they feed us.
this guy revere anyone check up on him? he was not the centerfielder
he was the right fielder, hewas not he leadof hiter. another example why amaro must go. washington gets the good guy for less than we get the leftover are yo kidding me? sheesh mayberry or brown are better than this guy are we getting cheap all of a sudden? why is hamlton hanging around and not in philly pin stripes. he is the guy we need not some cheap tread who cat hit a homerun in 2 years and cant hit the side of a building from 20 feet away, oh my god i am going to explode.— wildgreenman - very interest perspective mr murphy. well written and follows a fairly logical path . i do think it's a good trade if revere performs to expectations no matter how worley and may perform . the desparate need for cf far outweighs the need for the 4 or 5 p that worley would have been . that hole is fairly easily filled when you consider the difference of what worley will give you compared to a different 4 or 5 . also, i'm interested to see how worley turns out since hitters have pretty much caught onto the pitch cutting back into plate . he really relied on that and hitters appeared to have figured it out . the rest of his stuff is ave or below . plus i gotta think revere is part of a major pitch to young [assuming he fills in til that 3rd base prospect is ready or something else pops up] and signing swisher or swisher type . that makes for a damn good lineup behind a lotta quality pitching . i like the move- maybe the twins liked that prospect for span more than worley and also , maybe phils had to wait to see if they got upton or pagan.— RUgodot
- lousy trade by clueless and incompetent organization. Wren, Rizzo and Cashman are far superior to Ruben in their ability to get who they want with minimal if any collateral damage, a game Amaro has not learned to play.— daystrum
- Revere is a better option than Span. He is a cheaper version of Bourne and there wont be a steep decline in 2 years as we would have seen with Bourne. I hope they use the money saved with the CF position to add a HR hitting outfielder. While I could dream about Hamiliton it probably wont happen. If it did and the phils got Young too, lineup would be Rollins
Revere
Utley
Howard
Hamilton
Young
Brown
Ruiz/(maybe Joseph)
Pretty sweet lineup— LGbalsac - I would have rather seen RAJ throw in a reliever instead of May. He is going to need him in a couple of years when Halladay is gone.— alihajishank
- Pence and Victorino were abysmal at pitch selection and getting on base. Now is that a function of our horrible manager, Cholly Manuel, or we're they simply urn disciplined players? Probably both (Manuel needs to go BTW). I like the Revere deal, great defensive player, young - he's got upside potential & fits in salary structure, stolen bases, .300 hitter, plus his OBA should improve (unless he listens to Manuel and tries to hit 3R HR's) as he matures. And Michael Young is an aging star who provides stability & a good RH stick to a lineup in decline. Good job Ruben (now can you promote Sandberg and dump Uncle Charlie?).— TruthTeller01
- Worley is 75% swagger. He is a five inning pitcher that overworked the bullpen. Trevor May? Who knows. Remember Drabek? Young move is LAME. Rangers must be desperate to move him. What does he bring to the table in 2013? Hasn't played third in at lest two years.— butchcat
- Kendrick had a nice end of the season last year as he went back to his sinker, will fill in for Worley just fine. Ohils minor leagues are loaded with pitching, makes sense to use that as trade bait to get younger position players. Guys they've traded away over the last few years aren't exactly lighting it up.— workin365
- This is a good deal because Worley is a #4 or #5 starter and can be replaced. May is a young player but he's a pitcher who plays once every 5 days whereas Revere plays everyday and is already a major league player. There aren't many pitchers like Cole Hamels who are sure things right from the start. Many don't figure it out until they are in their late 20's or have been in the majors for a few years. So I like the trade. At worst Revere is a supporting player like a Victorino or Pence and there is still some upside he could be even better than that.— Phillies2008WSChamps
- Slap hitter, weak arm, good base stealer and cheap. Didn't Amaro just give up a lot to get a younger Juan Pierre? Why didn't they just keep Pierre?— jfdatl
- @warbiscuit: There's a slight difference between Chooch and Melky Cabrera. Chooch took Adderal, an ADD med. You can apply to baseball for a waiver and take it with a doctor's prescription and people like Victorino have done just that. Chooch took it without a RX, got suspended,and rightfully so, but he could get permission to use it in the future. Cabrera can't get baseball to let him take anabolic steroids, even if he asks nicely.— drbob1
- I'm surprised they got much of anything for Worley and May. I think Worley has won the majority of the games he will win. They do need some selective hitters or the Phillies will be an easy day at the office for all starting pitchers again. It definitely helps a team's offensive numbers if they can get into the opponent's middle relief once in a while.— jtj06
- Phils should consider Brandon McCarthy if the price is right, he's had some injuries in his history prior to the serious head injury but he's in his prime. Would fit well here, control pitcher, ground ball pitcher.
The Phillies paid a little extra for Revere but save a lot of money and brings some youth and energy to the lineup. Gillies is a talent but lets face it he has also been a problem. Revere needs to be an adequate player at minimum and improve. Not sure the arm thing will improve.
Phillies should be careful about signing Swisher. Has good regular season numbers but his postseason numbers are pretty terrible in many games and series. You also lose a pick which could serve to replace the loss of May somewhat. Be nice if they could snag Ludwick for a low price/years but he could be too pricey and it probably won't happen.
Like Murphy said you have to wait to see what their remaining moves are. The good news is they have some money to spend now in lieu of signing Bourn or another of the CFs.
Not sold on Revere yet but he's young. May we just don't know. He does have pretty major control issues still and even if Minnesota can fix it, how long until he's ready. We also did get Ethan Martin for Shane.
Worley is a decent pitcher, we need to replace him and hope it's somebody that's a little younger and not as expensive as Dempster though Dempster would help immediately.— rc1000 - Ben Revere - an 88 wRC (52nd of 57 rated OFers) worse than Victorino, Pence, Bourn, BJ Upton, Pagan, Ross, Fowler, Swisher, and Hamilton (at 140) - a very bad choice - Phillies need runs!— Roswell Greys
- i realize worley is overvalued here and May might never pan out, but two starting pitchers for a guy with no homers in his career who we dont ever know if he can hit, that just seems like a lot.
im lukewarm with Young- it was argued that Ron Washington blew the rangers season because he refused to pull Young out of the lineup this year- he was horrible. im not seeing 8 million bucks difference between Young and Fransden (realizing fransdens stats last year were an aberation)— jim715 - Impressive poetry and R&R tonight.— escapedcamden4monterey
- And don't it seem like CF's just keep getting harder to find, and all your OFs ain't bringing you piece of mind, before you find out it's too late (Ruin) you better get straight.— drbob1
- Suppose this guy Revere does somewhere like he did in 2012, plays good defense, hits around .300 , steals about 50 bases, and scores 70 runs for the next 5 years - would'nt he be a real bargain from a financial end. Here was a team that was in a quandry about where to spend up to $15M a year to fill the spot. Now they have a guy for basically peanuts for several more years. Should give the Phillies money to spend elsewhere. The one downer to the deal is that he appears to have a weak throwing arm. I used to wince when the ball was hit to Pierre this year and see him lob the ball back into the infield. I hope Revere is better than that. It should not have gone unnoticed that Shane Victorin's throwing has been subpar for the last two years. What I am hoping is that Revere will track down more balls into outs than he gives up because of an inadequate throwing arm.
By himself, I don't see how he is going to improve the speed of this team. You need at least three and preferably four fast players to dramatically change the chemistry of a good offense. Rather than settling for a slow and aging Michael Young, Amaro should be hunting for another young speedster. With Howard, Ruiz and Ruf sure to clog up the basepaths, we don't need Young to add to the clutter.
I do like the trade but I also liked the gutsy way Worley pitched. I hope he does well with his new club.
Now that the Phillies are in need of a bottom of the order pitcher, could Joe Blanton be back in the picture at a much reduced salary ?
— candidly - The Angels signed Blanton. 2 years, 15 million. I'm curious how the Phillies address the new hole in the rotation. With Halladay likely gone after next year I'm not convinced they'll just go for a bottom of the rotation guy.
Good points about Revere. He definitely has upside and CF defense is important. He's on our team now so give the guy a chance and hope for the best.— s - Listen my children and you shall hear,
Of the day the Phillies got fleeced on Ben Revere.
Rube and the Boob said they loved his "D"
However where they will bat him a mystery to me.
He could lead off, but then Little Jimmy would sulk
SO the silly, old fool is hoping for some luck.— Wilhelm Von Humboldt - wow steep price to pay...... i hope this works out— pr0f3ss0r
- JRoll is out of the Leadoff- JRoll is out of the Leadoff- That is the only thing that matters to me. I love the guy but his OBP has no place at #1.— KINGOFZED
- Denard Span's numbers take a nosedive away from home, it will be interesting if that changes in DC. Revere's numbers stay constant home or away, left or right pitching.— escapedcamden4monterey
- Disagree with you Murph. This is a good trade, and the kind of approach the phils need to take. No big time free agents, please. For those of you who are chirping that the MN fans are happy with this trade, read these MLB.com tweets. Most MN fans are really sad to see him go. http://mlb.mlb.com/twitter/index.jsp#s=revere— CenterFielderGaryMaddox
warbiscuit you're late for your shift at mickey d's those cheeseburgers aren't wrapping themselves— AlexSp- how to run a business, Rube style: pay top dollar --more than value --for any acquisition; sell anything you have for nothing..imbecile hasn't made single "good" deal since he lucked into Lee from Cleveland— warbiscuit
- Bro, this is such a tired act. No one cares that you come on here and cry everyday. You're life makes me sad.
We get it, you're jealous of Ruben.— kozykoz26 - every time Clueless Rube makes another one of his bone-headed trades, apologists come along to point out how flawed the disposed of players were or how they didn't or may not pan out (whether highly ranked prospects, or flawed veterans like Pence and Victorino)..the issue is not whether or not players like Drabek or D'arnaud or Worley or May actually pan out, or how good or not-so-good Pence may be, but whether Rube gets value when he makes a trade -- he traded 4 top prospects for Pence and then got back only useless trash for him when he traded him away, he then traded away 2 more highly rated players away again when he needs to trade for a mediocre outfielder, Revere, to replace his discarded outfielders whom were better than this mediocre nobody replacement,,, similarly he traded away Lee for cheap but paid in top prospects for Halladay and Oswalt.. he continually buys high and sells low and that's how he took a top ranked team and now has a losing one with one of the highest budgets in baseball with no present or future— warbiscuit
- worley is a back end of the rotation guy at best...he has been severely overrated since day one. and trevor who? the guy who just posted an ERA just south of 5 in the minors? good trade, no matter what the armchair idiots say— AlexSp
- @Dudeskins: Not sure if you'll be back to read this, but welcome back! Your voice has been most missed around here! Hope you stick around a while longer......
I must say I disagree with your closing statement. Can't say I've read any posts that lean in the direction you point to. If anything, a lot of folks may not care for RAJ going back to his assistant GM duties during the Ed Wade Reign Of Terror, when Amaro was sent on the airwaves to take calls from irate Phils fans. Trying to placate a fan base that was irate over one star forcing a trade after another. I remember those days well. Or could it be getting a John Bowker to pinch hit during the September stretch drive....and going hitless? My inner fear is that one of those players jettisoned is going to be a Ryne Sandberg Part Deux. Those scars of the past never heal......welcome back, Dude!— DelawareRiverRat - After 3 years in the Majors,Revere has never hit a home run - if Howard is not up to speed - Phillies are scoring very few runs and if Halliday is not pitching - they are down to 2 starters looks like 3rd or 4th place next year— Roswell Greys
- the amaro haters are getting really annoying. people forget that this guy built the greatest phillies team of all time, the 2010 phillies. they didn't win the series, but they were twenty times better than the 2008 or 1980 phils— Ryan
- Typical Rube Panic move.
Fail.— fmMD - @Sam Crow: I do like your optimism! Regarding M Young, I am in the minority here and am perfectly fine with Kevin Frandsen. Young does provide a value in playing other infield positions if and when Chase or Ryan need a rest or get injured. I will not be convinced Rollins will give up the lead off position...during Charlies remaining time. Expect a major tiff if or when Ryno takes over in the future on this issue. In a way, J-Roll has earned that spot. He has been the straw that stirs the drink and for all his lolly gagging, he still represents this team when he strolls up to that plate (no pun intended).
@Dave Clemens: Ditto. Charlie is probably the most loyal manager and coach this town has ever seen. I respect the man in total for the way he has held this team together for so long, during times when another manager could have lost the team. And after having seen the man manage this team, there is no doubt that Revere will bat second. Either way, some new blood in the clubhouse next February is going to be welcome indeed!— DelawareRiverRat - Pence? Worst RF in recent memory, certainly no Willie Montanez...I like the trade, this kid has hops and a great glove, not to mention the anti-thesis of the other Phillies (NO WHIF)— BirdinParadise
- Lets hope he is better than Ben Rivera....— tomficara
- speed always wins. take it over a pitcher that never went more than 150 innings any day of the week.— rich brunetti
- As with every trade, time will tell if we over traded for Revere. Anyway, I like this deal. Fast, young and a great fielder. We just got better and cheaper.— bobcitydoc
- twins fans love this trade which means rube is still a boob— 1stamendment
- We'll have to wait a year to determine it but I think that Worley shot his load as a rookie and he will become another Joe Blanton. He doesn't have a true out pitch and I think that even if his arm had been healthy, he would have slipped last year from his rookie year. May? Another minor league question mark. He does NOT have a big arm. The Phillies got a CF who can hit .290 - .300 and flag the ball in the field. Michael Young is a pro's pro. He is not the best at anything but he gives you a day's work wherever you play him. He is a leader in the Jim Eisenreich mold. Now, the Phils need to close the deal with Young and get another outfielder and an 8th inning relief pitcher. So far, the Phils have kept their treasury intact for a big deal or two. As for giving up Victorino and Pense, they are both overpriced for what they bring to the table. The Phillies are trying to compensate for all the money they spent on 3 pitchers and 2 infielders and still put together a winner. Revere is step one in that process.— gotedge
- Murphy and others have expressed concern about Revere's walk rate. Twins' analyst Roy Smalley (former SS) addressed that point on WIP today. For those who didn't hear him, Smalley said that because the Twins had Revere hitting second last season, they wanted him to swing the bat to try to advance lead-off man Span, not take walks. Smalley felt Revere had a very good idea of the strike zone and would get on base more if he were asked to lead off. So there's that.— Dave Clemens
- who's the bigger thief? Melky and Carlos Ruiz for transforming themselves into good players by cheating, or Ruben Amaro who steals a salary and acts like a big-shot g.m. of a major league baseball team, when in reality he has zero ability to evaluate players or assemble a roster and has absolutley no clue what he's doing ... someone give the Clueless Rube his gameboy back— warbiscuit
- should have signed Melky Cabrera - and for all you holier-than-thou types, seems that Carlos Ruiz sudden amazing transformnation into a good player wasn't entirely natural either...and it seems that Braun didnt decline one iota after he was caught so would assume Melky can keep it up too now that he had his "boost" --woud rather have a productive cheater like Melky than an incompetent Bube as g.m.— warbiscuit
- I am not sure about you anymore david. You seem to be on the wrong side of every decsion. I don't think you now much about baseball. Vance Worley is a 5th starter and there are a slew of players on the FA market who would be an upgrade. May is going downhill not uphill which is a bad sign. With the additon of Young, the Phillies cans till add another bat and have Ruf/Brown. Say they add a Marcum with Young, Revere and another outfield addition, they are vastly improved team. Revere and Young are what the Phillies bneed, guys who can hit for average. I don't what League Average means since its attached to All-stars and platoon players alike(apparently 85% of players are league average), so wherever you Misleading Metrics guys cooked this up, you can keep it, it smells bad.— UncleStosh
- was never a big worley fan,too injury prone,and may is an unknown...revere could be a player who morphs into an above average player and the deal is sensible from a monetary standpoint...young would be a huge upgrade at 3rd and if they can swing a deal or acquire a 5th starter somewhere they would only need an 8th inning set up guy and a more reliable bench outfielder...chris heisey,maybe?/— jabac
- Chris Heisey rocks!...Just needs at bats. — bearsfriend
- To me this deal was worth either Worley or May and one other minor leaguer. It's not that May is the next Cy Young. Just that it feels like the Phillies didn't have to give up so much. It's something we may not know for years.
This move isn't going to look good unless they make some other bigger moves. Young is really a non-factor here in my opinion. I agree with signing him for the year but you can't look at him as any difference maker unless we get lucky. They could really upgrade the rotation by going after a guy like Anibal Sanchez but I don't see that happening. Maybe Rube will surprise us since he seems to love pitching so much. I think with another outfielder, unless there's a good trade to be had, you'd have to go with Hamilton for a clear upgrade. I'm not a big Swisher fan. Or Cody Ross.— s - I told Rube to sit tight! Do nothing!!! Now look what he's done. Twins fans very happy with this trade. Accordng to a Twins post "Revere throws like a girl".— john blatnik
- After reading more about Revere, I don't think there's any way Cholly can do anything but bat him first in the lineup. Jimmy Rollins days in the leadoff spot are officially over if this kid can keep his average above .280 and runs the bases like they say he does. The Lil' Slugger better get used to his new role setting the table for the 7, 8, and 9 hitters.— Sam Crow
- Steep price? Worley = Happ, a 4 or 5 starter at best, and prospects are prospects. I'll trade that any day for a legit young speedy defensive smallball player.
A smallball player is exactly what this team needed to start to remember how to manufacture runs. Revere could easily develop into an all star considering the numbers he's already put up. I seriously doubt there's any chance of ever seeing Worley in an all star game.— Jangocat - Not a good day in philly.Avantasux you are brighter than all these posters.Warbiscuit you are my favorite poster because you can read DUMB RUBE like a book.I often say you can sell the philly fans anything.Selling M.Young is not a good move.Would love to have Upton(not B J)and all his HOMERS.— tobyjoe
Good trade. We had to replace the speed we lost with Pierre and this kid is much younger and a good slap hitter. I'm hoping Ruf gets a job in the outfield. He could be the missing power tehy need. Worley is a decent fourth starter but I think they replace him.— The Monk- please. they didn't give up anything. Worley will struggle to stay in the twins rotation this year. he's a #4 at best. and I'm not convinced may will ever be anything that special either.— Ryan
- No Cody Ross, please.— philly2sf
- People need to take it easy with this top prospect stuff. I'd bet their are around 10 other prospects the phillies value higher than May. In my opinion, and apparently the phillies(as well as other mlb teams or else he would have been more sought after and brought a bigger return), he is not their top prospect, not even close. He's not even the most major league ready pitcher they have, 4 other guys who would get a callup before May. I like Vance a lot but he's a 4th starter at best and we've proven more than capable of bringing up a young kid with not the greatest stuff and making it work. I'm gonna do the smart thing and wait till Ruben finishes his plan. If we add Michael Young, who i'm ok with(only 1 yr), along with a solid 8th inning guy(still guys out there). We'll still have a nice chunk of change to get the power threat we need as well as a backend starter. The market for pitchers hasn't even taken shape yet. Not to mention Ruben is always willing to add a significant piece at the trade deadline. Just be patient and let this play out. This isn't the last move Ruben will make, especially since Revere in terms of money is costing us absolutely nothing. We added a very speedy cf, who can steal bases and hit for avg(which people were clamoring for) and it doesn't affect our remaining budget at all. With the cost of position players going through the roof they'll end up spending less on a back end starter than they would have on a FA center fielder. Seems to me that's probably why Ruben made this deal, solid player but incredibly cheap, so he can get more value for his money at other positions.— Stephen45
- @Rat - Acquiring Young with 2 or 3 years left on his contract would qualify as a reach, but for one year at $6M? Not so much. I'm not sure I agree that CF needs to be a high RBI position, either. You should be able to get that production from LF, RF. CF is normally a speed position. Howard will bounce back this year. I predict he will actually return to pre-Achilles form now that his ankle is 110%. Rollins won't be leading off in a Sanberg lineup, either. One more year of that particular nonsense is all we will be forced to stomach, thank God.— Sam Crow
- 2013 World Series champs. We are now way better than Atlanta and Washington. This kid is the next Hamilton.— Drew777
- Worley wil be replaced by a better, more reliable four or five via free agency. May is a prospect but one whose stock dropped considerably last season. At some point folks you havto take risks. Taking one on a young guy, who is getting better, has upside, is "controllable", doesn't strike out, and steals bases is a great move. Sweat if he is Juan Pierre at 24? I'd take that every day at the lead off spot. And, Rurbenis not done. Look for another impactful move for a 3B or OF with the money he saved by not signing Bourn - a guy who strikes out way too much for this lineup.— topwonk
If someone said you could get Bourn for Worley & May it would be a no-brainer. But the reality is, Bourn will cost at least $75M and tie our hands for 5 years. During that time we will watch his skills skills and speed diminish (see second half of last season) and eventually regret the bloated contract. Instead we added a guy who basically looks and plays like Bourn did when he was starting his Astros years. Speed, fielding, contact hitting. On top of that Revere strikes out significantly less, costs less, is controllable for years, and gives the Phils financial flexability down the road. Meanwhile, Worley is on his way to the mediocrity of JA Happ now that the league has seen him, and is just another back of the rotation starter - easy to find and replace. Losing May sucks - but the Phils saw things this year that made him expendable. I won't be surprised when he fizzles in the Twins minor leagues. I like this trade, and have been thrilled that the Phils have avoided overpaying the average-at-best group of free agents out there.- Excellent post, Chris. Upton or Bourn would have been long-term disasters for the Phils. Revere is exactly what's needed to balance out the older age and heavier contracts of players like Rollins, Howard, and Lee. And it looks like the kid can play. Phils still need a power bat, though. NOT Hamilton, who is too risky a proposition. Cody Ross isn't enough. Swisher?
- Folks need to get it through their heads that J-Roll is not batting anywhere but first. And Utley is not batting second. I'm all for getting younger but it is very clear our own front office has no faith in it's own young players stepping in when big contracts depart (Werth, Ibanez, Polanco, etc). The time for riding the big 3 of Utley, Rollins and Howard is drawing down, but of the 3, 2 contracts are still in play for a few years to come. It is that elephant in the room that has hamstrung this team; while it ages, it cannot be moved due to the high dollar value of the contract. Thus we are witness to one purge of young prospects after another.....
I like the optimism of Bearsfriend, but I have no faith in seeing youngsters stepping in. Rather, they are nothing but trade fodder for another overpriced trade for a mid to late thirties player whose best days are behind him. Or in the case of Revere, he assumes a position that was looked on for some RBI production...— DelawareRiverRat - May was a Top 100 prospect going into 2012, but by the end of 2012 he wasn't even Top 20 in his league (Eastern). Worley is an inconsistent pitcher who caught lightning in a bottle his rookie season. He's not well conditioned, and that leads to fatigue in the late innings. Amaro made a good trade getting anything of value for these guys, before their stock plummets any further. The naysayers are free to jump on the Nationals bandwagon, where they'll fit in perfectly with clueless fans.— Dave14
- Murph gets worse with every read. Amazing how poorly he can interpret all his data. Grat trade of a # 4 starter and May who was HORRIBLE last year with an ERA about 5 most of the season and many multi HR games... for a base stealing lead off guy who has the speed to keep Ruf in the line up. Saving 80 mill from Bourne allows a power hitter, even Hamilton to be added, or 4th starter (marcum), 8th inn Mike Adams, and a Cody Ross with the monet not spent on Bourne. This Should gett Rollins to hit further down, and we got younger. Add Ruf and next year Asche and we have some infused youth. Perfect time to sell Worley. Murph is depressing, he might actually be Dopebiscuit— WFChamps
- poor ruben gets his pocket picked every single time. I bet the other teams cant wait till he gets to the winter meetings, they know he is over matched— stayoutofphilly
- Revere is a great kid and an exciting player. He'll get on base and is lightening fast on the base paths. Great outfield range. Here is the downside -- Philly fans will wrench their necks watching runners go from first to third on their new center fielder.— KD from MN
- Agree with Sam Crow. Provided we get Young and sign Swisher, Ross or Hairston (that order, in my view) -- we've improved. We added youth, speed and defense in Revere and power in Young and one of the aforementioned outfielders.
Keep this in mind: Michael Young will be in the final contract year of his careeer. At age 36, if he has a strong season, a two- or three-year deal awaits, probably in the AL where he can DH. He has a lot to prove after a down year in 2011. If he's smart, he accepts the trade and falls in love with the short left field porch at CBP. I'm willing to bet Cliff Lee (former teammate) has called or texted Young already.
— eman - We hear this all the time, If the Phillies trade a prospect, they traded away the next Cy Young. What pitching prospect have they traded that truly was an impact player in the last 5 years? Answer: Gio Gonzales but we got quality in return for him. We just traded unproven major league talent for unproven major league talent. A gamble, of course, but isn't that the best part of a trade? Did we get the better of the other team. Only time will tell, but we needed a CFer and considering the options, this was a great deal. Well done RAJ and now go get Young.— bmcw
- For this offseason, I have always believed a trade was the only way to improve the team and get younger and cheaper. Revere is a good pick up especially if JRoll moves to 6 or 7 spot.. But trading 2 pitchers for a lead off hitter is bad. May's stock may have been dropping but he is still a power arm and worth keeping as compared to cloyd and pettibone. With Halliday coming off the books next year, KK and Worley a bad year away from being removed for the rotation completely you need young desirable pitching prospects to trade to cover your needs. If the Phils sign a FA pitcher we are going to be stuck with a rotation that has bad contracts tying up too much money. It also means that since we can't move any of that overpriced pitching, real prospects like Biddle come into play as trading chips. By trading Worley and May in the same deal, RAJ has limited his future options.— PhillyinBmore
- This article states Kyle Lohse would be a free agent pitcher worth pursing. Well, he's a Boras client and that's why the Phillies didn't sign him before he went to the Cards. People have such short memories in this town.— sonnybuoy01
- I saw May pitch several times in Reading. He loses his juice around the fourth or fifth inning. The best he will ever be is a middle reliever. Pitchers like Worley are a dime a dozen. Anyone who knows anything about baseball knows this is a great trade for the Phillies.— Russ
- Ben Revere has no homeruns in his major league career. None. I know we're not expecting him to be a power hitter, but don't you want a guy who can hit it out of the park at least once in a while?— Smooth88
- @stik....I couldn't have said it better myself. Worley isn't Drysdale and May isn't Seaver...and IMO neither one of them ever will be anything close.— Mark1npt
- Steep price? Are you serious? May got hammered last year at Double AA. Worley is at best a fourth starter on a good team or third starter on a bad team. This kid is 24 years old who can steal 40-50 bases, hits for average and is an outstanding defensive centerfielder. PLUS, he costs 80 million less han Bourne and is under team control for years. Good trade and you solved the most important psotion of need and you still have all your off season money. Now, onto third base and a set up guy.— matty177
- That is not a great OBP. Not that much better than Victorino. The guy needs to draw more walks to be a good leadoff hitter.— tomB
- Rubens A Moron, Jr. strikes again!— advantasux
- I think if they put Charlie Noggin in the outfield and Peter Pannache on 3rd the Argyles might pull this out. What? It's not 1932?— neddyflanders
- "...the Phillies seem to have given up a ton to get Revere. That was my first reaction, and it seems to be pretty universal." Uh, not universal. Am I missing something? Worley is a #4 guy at best. I like him and would have liked to keep him but this makes sense. Also, prospects are just that prospects. Very few are can't miss. And clearly with the drop in performance from one level to the next May is not a can't miss prospect. He may be great one day who knows. But I'll trade a prospect every day over something taht is a known quantity at the MLB level. And in this case adresses a primary need in the lineup. I am still miffed D. Brown was not packaged to get Halladay in '09 after they made the Lee deal (can you say 3 in a row if they had). How foolish do they look now to have what is at best a #4 OF?— homerjay99
- Crazy deal...Revere is a younger version of Juan Pierre who they could have kept and traded nothing for..makes no sense to trade away your #4 starter and your top pitching prospect for what amounts to Juan Pierre??— flyers1000
- He maybe fast but this lineup can not move runners. They don 't hit. Makes no sense. Then to go after a 37 yr old 3rd baseman. Wow...you are looking at a last place finish based on what the Nats and Braves accomplished w their upgrades.— 76sixers
- Hey Warbiscuit, are you some disgruntled relative. Why do you even bother if you have that much disdainful felling for the GM. Or is it a secret little girl love affair????
— Mike DP - Most of negative comments simply do not understand the economics of baseball nor the future. Revere is basically the same player Michael Bourn is, but strikes out MUCH less, and will be paid MUCH less than a guy like Bourn over the next 4-5 years. Same dude, less cash. Next....Michael Young CAN play 3B. He hasn't due to Adrian Beltre (and who wouldn't play Beltre over Young?). One year of Young is what the Phillies would want, hoping that Cody Ashe/Mikael Franco will be ready for 2014 (one of them). Young can also play some 2B as can Frandsen, so its a better insurance policy for Utley's knees than Freddy "Mendoza line" Galvis. The outfield of Ruf/Revere/Brown is pretty much what you see is what you get. I see RAJ pouncing on a pitcher in the free agent market to replace Sir Vance Alot. Trevor may has been rated high previously, but he didn't excite anyone last year at Reading, where Jonathan Petibone surpassed him and Jesse Biddle will too shortly. Morgan is also waiting in the wings. Like the possible deals so far. Getting Young on board would make these meetings much more successful and well on the way to a good offseason so far. Like I've said SO many times before, never judge the off season until April hits.— drhoffman
- Steep Price?...Yea... we'll see if May turns into something other than that this was exactly what the Phillies needed and they stole him from Minnesota. I guess High Cheese needs to rethink this one.— Apollo Creed
- Worley was a marginal prospect who took advantage of his opprtunity to pitch in the majors just like Kyle Kendrick a few years before. Good for him. But he can be easily replaced.— zeke128
- Regarding Revere, you have a guy with just a little over a year's ML experience whoi made just 492k last season, so he's under control....CHEAP....He's a legitimate defender (average arm) who to me, tells me Ruf is truly in the plans for LF (yes!), giving the Phillies the cheapest OF for 2013...maybe allowing them to go in other areas...Adds balance as he's a stolen base threat...Many fans did NOT want the Phillies to go loco offering $15 million on up for either Upton or Bourne, and with Gillies not far along enough, here we are...If Gillies (or eventually Zach Collier) develop, the Phillies now have true speed options coming along...Add the thought of Roman Quinn (fastest human in the system, playing in Lakewood this year at SS), and a new facet may be emerging for the Phightins.— bearsfriend
- I actually like this deal. We still don't know what Worley would have done and this season was a disappointment and raised some flags. Revere finally gives us a leadoff hitter who actually cares about getting on base and igniting rallies instead of trying to hit for the fences and wasting a lot of opportunities like Rollins. To have a pure singles-doubles hitter is pretty rare, so good for Amaro.— echosmyron
- So because he did not overpay for older outfielders, Upton and Shane, he is a rube, lets see slightly use and hurt pitcher a 4 or 5 a rookie that has not proven anything for a CF who bated 290 stole 40 bases is a good defensive player, is 24 years old and won't see Free agency for 4 or 5 years looks like a smart deal, I don't consider Worley or Mays a TON good job Ruben— PHILLY76
- Not sure what they are thinking with Revere. He sounds like a younger version of Juan Pierre as a hitter, which isn't all bad, but I'm not sure that's what the Phillies were looking for in a Center Fielder.— SteveS11
- Concerning the steep price, Worley lived with that fastball that would run away from lefthanded hitters, often surprising batters from BOTH sides for stikeouts looking, but if location of the rising fastball wasn't out of the strikezone, he became batting practice...The wildcard is May...a super arm who overthought much of what he was doing (concerning setting up hitters, tinkering with a new changeup) in Reading and fell back some, as other new arms cameinto the brass' sights...most notably Adam Morgan and Ethan Martin, with the always steady Jon Petibone ascending quicker. The Twins NEED arms, and Worley is serviceable, and May has some upside.— bearsfriend
- @Sam Crow: I like moving Utley to 2 and Young at 3, and unfortunately agree with you that their "big" move for a RH bat to hit 5th will be Cody Ross. I'd have Ruf in LF and Ross in RF vs lefties, though. I also wonder if Cholly will have the stones to move Jimmy down to 6 where he belongs. Also unfortunately, Young is a below average defensive 3rd baseman (.950 fielding % last year) and plays better defense at 2nd, which I'm sure he'll play when Utley is on the DL.— Only in Philly...
- I don't think Manuel does have the stones to move Jimmy down in the lineup, unfortunately. And because of this we can't field the most competitive lineup. It's ridiculous and throws everything out of whack. If you move Rollins to the leadoff spot, you would then need to move Revere down to #2 which would shift Utley to #3. This would be counterproductive because it would move Young, who is a good situational hitter, much further down in the lineup. Rollins holds the club hostage. An outfield cache of Ruf, Ross, Mayberry, Revere, Nix and Brown would provide a lot flexibility on any given day (3 righties and 3 lefties).
— Sam Crow - May just spent last year getting rocked by AA hitting and has seen his minor league ERA hovering around 4.00 for the last 3 years. Worley was never a highly-touted prospect who just finished a 6-9/4.20 season and had elbow surgery.
I don't know what your definition of "steep price" is to acquire a promising young player of Revere's caliber, but let's stop pretending like we just gave up Maddux and Glavine shall we - yes Victorino and Pence were infinitely better than this nobody...Phillies lost when they had Vic and Pence because they were woefully inadequate in a lineup that was mediocre or poor at just about every spot, now they are even worse.. a pitiful team with only 2 good players on entire 40-man roster (hamels, Lee), shaped by a complete imbecile who has turned a chamnpionship caliber team into a losing team with no present or future— warbiscuit
- how to run a business, Rube style: pay top dollar --more than value --for any acquisition; sell anything you have for nothing..imbecile hasn't made single "good" deal since he lucked into Lee from Cleveland— warbiscuit
- only in loser-delphia can a g.m. turn a defending championship team into a 3rd place .500 team with one of the highest budgets in the league, continue to get significantly worse with no efforts at filling basic needs, and still have moronic fans act as if he must have some "plan" ....his smug arogance is a cover for his complete incompetence and cluelessness— warbiscuit
- What was this alternate universe where May had this amazing season that everyone else was in?
In the universe I was in, May's stock was plummeting.— cloudkitt - http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=16201 — 46 and 2
- We are still deep with pitching, Centerfielders, not so much..this guy is young, fast, and cheap..I'd say it was a very good trade— TexasYankee
- Centerfield defense is not particularly important. All you need is someone to make routine plays. When Victorino was winning Gold Gloves in center, this did not mean additional victories. Worley was cheap, now the Phillies have to spend major free agent bucks to replace him. Money that could have been spent on the problematic bullpen.— Freedom Fries
- who cares, baseball is soooooooo boring
— pieman - If it's soooooooo boring to watch, why are you here reading about it? Just like to see your writing in print?
- A better question is what could Rube have gotten for Worley and May last year at this time? He traded two players who had down years, when they probably had a lot more value a year ago. Also - @Exiled - Michael Young is anything but a bona-fide 3B these days.— dankil13
- Warbiscuit and 46 and 2 - If we end up winning the WS, please do not attend the parade. We don't need doomsdayers standing on the corner trying to ruin our fun.— Bruno Sammartino
- I think this is shaping up to be a good winter by Amaro. Michael Young is a proven veteran who can play 3B, 2B and SS. He’s a contact hitter who understands situational hitting. I’m familiar with him as I’ve followed the Rangers closely after living in Big D in ‘11, and I can tell you that YOUNG is the heart and soul of the Rangers- more so than Kinsler or even Hamilton. He’s a leader and a gamer and will be a great presence in the Phillies lineup. I think he would make a great three-hole hitter sandwiched between Utley #2 and Howard #4. His defense is above average, too; he won a GG at SS in ‘08.
I was hoping Amaro would sign Scutaro to fill the super utility role but landing MY is even better because it’s cheaper, for less years and Young is even younger than Scutaro. With Revere and Mayberry as a potential platoon in CF, and with this trade for Young, we HAVE officially improved, especially if Amaro can sign Cody Ross to solidify the OF with another RH power bat. I’m giving some major props to RAJ so far…
Potential opening day lineup:
1) B. Revere - CF
2) C. Utley - 2B
3) M. Young - 3B
4) R. Howard - 1B
5) C. Ross - LF
6) J. Rollins - SS
7) J. Mayberry/D. Brown - RF
8) E. Kratz - C
9) C. Hamels - P
— Sam Crow - May's stock was falling like a stone and Worley has been hugely overrated in Philadelphia. Also, you will see over the next couple years Revere is actually better player than Span.— JBS67
- All I have to say is wait till you see him play! He is fun to watch, especially when he makes ridiculous catches in the OF and draws the attention of the pitcher away from the batter due to his ability to steal pretty much when he wants to. I live in MN, the reason the Twins traded Span is due to Revere and the Only way the Twins would part with Revere is if they got something like this in return.
I think in due time Revere will make this a good trade if not excellent trade on your GMs part. Just give the soon to be 25 year old a chance, he's young and cheap for a while. He'll save more runs than he gives up on D— callmestupid - http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/phillies-pay-premium-for-ben-revere/ — 46 and 2
- The bottom line conclusion at FanGraphs is basically my feeling: Fair deal had it been for Worley alone but the Phillies overpaid by throwing May in.
One way to compensate would be to throw money at a starting pitcher who's a clear upgrade over Worley.— s - When will the same OLE laments over prospects ever end . If you really wanna complain about something why not complain about the former Scouting director who signed so many highly ranked but now traded former prospects. None of these so called "Lost Gems" has done anything anywhere to write home about,period! As for the Vanimal, he basically ate his way out of Philly and from what I saw and heard from him he let his clippings go to his head. The verdict is always out on any deal but the complainers never like any move and the hate for Amaro has nothing to do with his competence as a GM and it never has been and most know why he generates so much over the top hatred. It has nothing to do with BB at all.
— DUDESKINS - Bravo. The lament over lost prospects is neverending as is the intense anger at Amaro, but keep in mind, much of it comes from one extremely annoying and over-the-top poster. My only concern with the deal relates to Tyson Gillies, now blocked in center, admittedly another prospect and one oft injured, but clearly talented and seeming to finally mature into an everyday centerfielder. — chuckw
- I don't hate the GM. I just think he overpaid. That seems to be the consensus among most writers so far. If nothing else, May could have been a trade chip to be used elsewhere. And Span for a minor league prospect makes it look worse. Two factors that probably played in: Span makes a lot more money and the Twins took less just to unload some salary. Worley was worth less than we could have gotten this time last year due to his sub-par year and elbow surgery.
It is what it is. We just have to see how Revere pans out now. And the Phillies have to make more moves. I'm most curious how RAJ fills out the rotation. Going into the season with Kendrick/Cloyd as your 4/5 is not helping the odds of any World Series run.— s - Rube is the rube who got fleeced by a used car salesman. He just gave up a major league established arm AND their TOP prospect for a ground ball slap hitter who is an awesome corner fielder (with a weak arm)? Revere, is suspect in CF (look at his UZR while playing CF) and doesn't have much of an OBP. The kid is going to slide into the #2 spot but giving their TOP prospect for him? And Worley. He got swindled.— 46 and 2
- Worley is a so-so pitcher, May, for being some top prospect, has been in the minors for five years. How hot is that? Hey, Domonic Brown was considered one of the top three prospects by all of MLB. How good is he? Worley, what Cy young did he win and how will he be after elbow surgery? Love you gashouse managers. — mike l
- Revere can't hit lefties. He has good D and can steal bases, that's about it. Could they have gotten someone better for the price that they paid? — 46 and 2
- Cluelss Rube traded away outfielders with much better resumes and much more valuable (Pence, Victorino) for literlaly nothing, and then trades away assets for another outfielder who is barely servicable and less valuable than what he gave away...considering how expensive outfielders are this winter, if instead of trading Pence for close to absolutely nothing last July, is there anyone outside of the Clueless Rube who couldn't get more for Pence this winter than a double A .250 hitting non-prospect? once again the imbecile shows how to destroy a franchise by overpaying by 200 to 500% in cash or prospects for what he thinks he needs, and getting only useless trash when he discards something or tries to get something cheap— warbiscuit
- Can you please give it a rest? Every single article about the Phillies is IMMEDIATELY followed by your idiotic "Clueless Rube" shtick. Your knowledge of baseball is negligible, but even that would be OK if you didn't just beat the same tired, stupid drum day after day after day. Just do us all a favor and STFU.
— 1980 - biscuit, how are you always the first or second comment? what do you do with your life? refresh philly.com's page every 5 seconds all day? — AlexSp
- What a dope. Not Ruben, warbunny. Pence sucked. Worley is a so-so pitcher, May, for being some top prospect, has been in the minors for five years. How hot is that? Good job done. — mike l
- Hey Murph :
Overall -- assuming Michael Young hears positives from Cliff Lee and/or Roy Oswalt and says 'yes' -- If Ruben comes home with Revere and Young, we've got a bona-fide CF and an bona-fide everyday 3B who can fill in for anyone else in the infield who may go down, one a lead-off guy replacing an aging JRoll, and one a needed righty bat, and giving up Worley, May, and let's say, likely Schwimmer, and all the Phils have to pay for Young for 2013 is about 5 or 6 MM, Ruben's done well. - Your definition of bona-fide everyday 3B is different than mine. He had a negative WAR last year. And an average WAR of around 2 before that. They'd be better off using you and saving $6m, vs. getting yet another overpaid, aging, slow third baseman with no power. — PhillyPhan4for4
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