Like many folks, Dubee had his suspicions
The two scouts who Ken Rosenthal quoted in his spring training story about Roy Halladay's decreased velocity are not the only people who had some suspicions about the veteran righthander's physical well-being.
Like many folks, Dubee had his suspicions
David Murphy, Daily News Staff Writer
The two scouts who Ken Rosenthal quoted in his spring training story about Roy Halladay's decreased velocity are not the only people who had some suspicions about the veteran righthander's physical well-being.
"I've thought since spring training that there was an issue," pitching coach Rich Dubee said on Tuesday, after the Phillies put Halladay on the disabled list with a Grade 1/2 strain of his lat muscle. "The ball just hasn't been accelerating through the zone the way his stuff does. His cutter has been moving that way, but his stuff is different than most people's stuff. Does he have that 96 (MPH velocity)? No. But his stuff, from the grass through the hitting zone, is explosive. It just took off. It was just more gradual now. It didn't have the finish to it."
So why did Halladay continue to pitch? According to Dubee, it was only the last couple of outings when it became apparent that the veteran righthander was not going to be able to pitch through whatever was ailing him. Heck, according to Halladay, there wasn't even a problem until the past couple starts.
Probably for a couple weeks now he's talked about crankiness, but he's said it's nothing I can't pitch with. After a couple of outings I talked to him, and then last outing, just watching his body language you could tell it wasn't even close to being right. So we got him out of there and hopefully we caught this thing at a good time if there is a good time and we can get it strengthened and get him on the mound again.
"Guys generally pitch with something," Dubee said. "You do not feel 100 percent very often when you go out there. There are lingering things and I thought this was some type of thing that was just a minor, lingering thing and we talked and he said he felt he could deal with it and work through it, and it just never got better and finally we had to stop it and see what was going on.
"Guys pitch with crankiness. Guys pitch with all kinds of crankiness. There is wear and tear to pitching. This went from just a crankiness and not feeling right to all of a sudden the last couple outings it was a little more difficult. The difference was really that he could get heated up, but when he sat down, he couldn't get it going again, he couldn't get the arm speed going again and the velocity and his arm in the right slot, and that just happened in the last couple of outings.
"We always talk. Probably for a couple weeks now he's talked about crankiness, but he's said it's nothing I can't pitch with. After a couple of outings I talked to him, and then last outing, just watching his body language you could tell it wasn't even close to being right. So we got him out of there and hopefully we caught this thing at a good time if there is a good time and we can get it strengthened and get him on the mound again."
Nobody is quite sure when the injury happened. Dubee pointed out that Halladay shouldered a tremendous workload in his final outing of the 2011 season, throwing 126 pitches in eight innings while trying to maintain a 1-0 deficit against the Cardinals.
"I haven't seen the stuff you expect to see out of him really since spring training, so you wonder," Dubee said. "You wonder what happened. We leave the season last year, he pitches a whale of a game the last day, was it happening then, did it happen when he started long tossing? You really don't know when it happened. Does it happen over wear and tear? There's a lot of things you could throw into the equation. But it is what it is and hopefully we caught it at a good enough time where three weeks of rest and reshaping his lat and strengthening it again we can get him back on the mound."
The news is better than it could have been.
"It could have been the labrum, it could have been the rotator cuff," Dubee said. "If there is good news from an injury, this is probably good news."
Kind of makes you appreciate Cliff Lee's approach to injury and discomfort. Stop before it gets worse and then get better sooner. It sounds like Dubee has created a macho culture there where you are expected to pitch through discomfort until it breaks. Let's look back at Worley, Bastardo, Stutes, Blanton, go back further to Lidge, Romero, and who knows who else - all expected to pitch through a "minor" problem until it becomes DL-worthy. OK. I'm not a Dubee fan. He teaches the change-up, runs Spring Training, and takes in-game interviews for Manuel. What's he do that makes a difference and someone else couldn't do?— calm weather- I wish Doc the best in his re-hab!! He is such a competitor, it will be awful to sit on the sidelines
— SalGalB43 - The only thing that bothers me is that the phrase "Dubee had his suspicians". If he had suspicians, then why didnt he act on them instead of letting him pitch and get hurt. I know players hide injurys, but pitchers stand out like a sore thumb when they are hurt, especially to a pitching coach. Too much stuff going on this year that seems suspect, its a wonder we have a winning record. Dubee needs to be pro-active instead of reactive,because once you get reactive, its too late....!!!!— huntnmike3666
- I'd venture a guess. Dubee would be snapped up fast if he left the team. Unlike Milt Thompson when he left the Phillies, no one rushed to sign him.— phineas
- I don't suppose that Greg Gross would be snapped up either if/when he gets fired. Maybe he'd get a job as a scout or something. Hell, if Pat Burrell could get hired as a scout, then any of these coaches probably could. — SteveS11
- Do you have some insight into Pat Burrell's player evaluation skills? Or are you just demonstrating your idiocy? — CornerPretzelGuy
- I'm glad Dubee is a little more forthcoming in this article. It was clear to me the last few starts that Doc's arm slot was dropping (and his pitches had no bite to them) as he was trying to get comfortable. I mentioned that on here on May 24, 3 days before he came out with the injury. I was truly beginning to doubt tha abilities of the coaching staff and trainers/PTs. If I could see it on MLB.com, how come they couldn't from the dugout? Yes, all players play thru aches and pains. The wimps go on the DL for every little hangnail injury. The true pros, and that's 95% of the players, play hurt during each season don't stop until they get worried that they may be causing tissue damage and obviously that's what Doc thought in that last game. It will be interesting to see how Doc's lat responds and how good it stays thru the rest of the season. It could be great and durable. Or it could be terrible and rip straight thru in his first start back. No telling. (HTML deleted)— Mark1npt
- This is no surprise to any of us Phillies phans who have watched Halladay pitch after his 1st 4 starts. His velocity is down and his fastball/offspeed ratio has been way down (all indicators that he was having some arm/shoulder issues). The way this season has played out, this doesn't surprise any of us phans. What amazes me is that somehow, someway, Cholly & Co. have remained only 5 games out (in the loss column) and have been competative. Most "posters" on these sites continue to rag on Cholly, but this may actually be his best managerial job yet...albeit with some tape, glue, bandaides, etc..holding the forte together. Elarton should get a shot to show his wares.— drhoffman
- The Phillies may as well just write off the 2012 season and start over again next Spring. Only problem with that, of course, is that they'll all be another year older, and that's already an issue. Maybe its time to get into rebuilding mode.— SteveS11
- Start over with whom? They may need a new 3B, CF, LF, SP and some bullpen help. Rebuild with whom. Have you checked out the prospects lately? They don't exactly sound ready for the Show anytime soon. — brio
- Dubee is the pitching coach, had suspicions, but never did anything?
Great job, Rich!— fmMD - Working for Uncle Cholly, you just do your job and say nothing. Plus, the front office probably told him to stay quiet if he wanted to keep his job. This is a "yes man" organization or else you get booted. — sonnybuoy01
- Dubee is as clueless as the other 2 of the triumvirate: 3 stooges Rube, Chollie and Dubee— warbiscuit
- Ask any rower. As soon as the pain dies down get him on the erg. The way this guy works, he'll have the strongest lats on the planet.— Doug Harrison
- Great quotes from Rich Dubee on his thoughts about Roy. For the negative nellies out there, name one pitching coach who has shutdown the ace of their staff. I've read more honest evaluation on Roy in this one story then I have for going on 1 whole season with the Chase Utley situation. Must admit it's kind of refreshing.
And as usual, Mark1npt's comments are insightful as to the ramifications of pitching with this condition....well done! Here's wishing Roy a quick and pain free recovery! He will be missed. Time for KK and JB to step up big time!
— DelawareRiverRat
