Brad Lidge, Braden Looper, Cherries, and a look back at history
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Brad Lidge, Braden Looper, Cherries, and a look back at history
David Murphy, Daily News Staff Writer
Let me start by saying that I like cherries. I value them. They are one of my favorite fruit. But while an ice cream sundae may not taste its best without one, it is still an ice cream sundae.
I say all this because I am about to talk about closers, which to me are baseball's equivalent of a cherry. This topic of discussion arises from last night's melt-down in Pittsburgh, where Brad Lidge blew his ninth save of the season and gave fresh fodder to the we're-doomed-if-this-continues crowd.
Again, let me re-iterate. I value cherries, and I value closers. There is no question Lidge was one of the key factors for the Phillies' World Series title last season. Without him on the mound pitching at his best, do they win Game 5? Maybe. Maybe not.
Would a dominant Lidge greatly enhance the Phillies' chances of repeating this year? Absolutely.
But is a dominant Lidge absolutely necesarry? History suggests no.
In today's game, the closer has taken on an almost mythical status. And rightly so. One need only look at the Red Sox's Jonathon Papelbon, the Yankees' Mariano Riveira, and the Angels' Francisco Rodriguez to see the value in having one player who can shorten every game by one inning.
But I also think our perspective is clouded by the fact that those three players have competed for five of the last 10 World Series champions.
EDIT: As a couple of you have pointed out, Papelbon was not on the '04 team, as originally stated. Instead, the equally-dominant Keith Foulke was. High Cheese regrets the error, although the over-riding point remains the same.
In an ideal world, at least in the one inhabited by the Phillies, Lidge would be included in those ranks. But right now, it is painfully evident that he isn't. Last night, both Charlie Manuel and Lidge seemed at a loss for words following the Phillies' 6-4 loss to the Pirates. For the first time in any of Lidge's nine blown saves, both men seemed to be searching. Their voices were far away when the talked. Their minds were somewhere else. Say this about both men - when they talked on prior occasions, you really felt like they believed that Lidge would turn it around. Last night, however, that conviction was missing in their voices. Lidge talked softly about the difficulty of pitching four days straight, even though he recorded saves in four straight games earlier this season while throwing more pitches over that stretch than he did in this most recent one. He has pitched in four straight games on two other occasions over the last two years, and never with the results of last night.
So yes, the Phillies have a problem.
But it is not an irreversible one, particularly with the influx of arms they could soon receive in the bullpen.
First, let's take a look back at recent history. While five of the 10 World Series Champions from 1998-2007 featured either Papelbon, Rivera, or Rodriguez at closer, five of them did not. And in four of those situations, the closer situation was just as tenuous as it is right now for the Phillies:
1) 2003 Marlins: During the regular season, closer Braden Looper blew six saves. In late September, the Marlins replaced him with righthander Ugueth Urbina, whom the team acquired from Texas in early July. Urbina went on to save four games during the playoffs, posting a 3.46 ERA, including two in the World Series. Looper pitched in three games in the World Series, allowing four runs on six hits with two home runs in 3 2/3 innings.
2) 2006 Cardinals: During the regular season, closer Jason Isringhausen blew 10 saves, then went on the disabled list in September with a hip injury. He was replaced by Adam Wainwright, who had a 3.12 ERA during the regular season, then went on to save four games in the playoffs, pitching a total of 9 2/3 scoreless innings during St. Louis' title run.
3) 2005 White Sox: Chicago had a lights-out closer in Dustin Hermanson, who saved 34 games and posted a 2.04 ERA during the regular season. But in September, Hermanson went on the disabled list with a back injury and was replaced by mid-season call-up Bobby Jenks, who saved four games during the playoffs, including two in the World Series.
4) 2001 Diamondbacks: Byung Hyun Kim saved 19 games and posted a 2.94 ERA during the regular season, then saved three games in 6 1/3 scoreless innings in the NLDS and NLCS. But in the World Series, he blew both of his save opportunities, allowing five runs between them. The Diamondbacks went on to win in seven games.
So how does all of this relate to the 2009 Phillies?
First and foremost, it gives an indication that a closer is an important part of a dynasty. Again -- remember the cherries -- I am not down-playing that. None of the aforementioned four title winners won more than once in the given 10-year span. The Red Sox, with Jonathon Papelbon, won twice. The Yankees, with Rivera, won three times.
But it also gives an indication that if a baseball team is a Lizard, then a closer is the Lizard's tail. If you chop off the tail, a new one will grow. It might take awhile, and it might be painful, and if the Lizard had its druthers then he certainly would have elected to keep the original, but he'd much rather lose his tail than his head.
While the Phillies bullpen has been marred by injuries and inconsistency this season, it also has the possibility of possessing unprecedented depth during September and October.
If the three key performers currently on the disabled list -- lefthander J.C. Romero and righthanders Clay Condrey and Brett Myers -- return during September (a big if, I admit), the team will have plenty of options to sort through in the final weeks of the regular season.
*Brett Myers: He has closed before, reports say his velocity is up over where it was before his injury, and he has the ability to pitch either multiple innings or in the back of the bull-pen.
*Chan Ho Park: Like Myers, he has back-of-the-bullpen stuff as well as an ability to pitch multiple innings.
*Ryan Madson: He struggled in his brief stint as closer when Lidge was on the disabled list, but there is no questioning his stuff.
*Scott Eyre: Manuel used him to retire two left-handed batters in the ninth inning earlier this month in Atlanta before sending Lidge in for the one-out save.
*J.C. Romero: When he signed a three-year extension prior to last season, it was with the assumption that he would give the Phillies a left-handed option for the back of the bullpen.
Right there you have five players not named Lidge who have the type of repetoire it takes to succeed in the ninth inning. Last year, the Rays made it to the World Series using a closer-by-committee approach, using parts far less capable than the ones the Phillies currently possess.
Am I suggesting the Phillies go with a committee approach? No. I'm just suggesting that they have options. And while none of them makes them as strong of a team as they are when Lidge is shutting down the ninth inning, I do think that Lidge's struggles are surmountable.
I also think that Manuel does not need to be in a rush to evaluate his other options. That time is coming, but it is not here yet. Urbina did not replace Looper until the final week of September. The Phillies still need to find away to straighten Lidge out, and with every passing game, there is less and less evidence that they will succeed. But with a seven-game division lead, is there much harm in running him out there until Myers and Romero return, hoping that something might finally click? And, if something does not click, in using the final two or three weeks of the season to implement the back-up plan?
Again, back to the cherries. I am not down-playing their importance. Believe me, there is nothing more frustrating then heaping hot fudge, caramel and whipped cream onto vanilla ice cream and then realizing that you do not have the cherry. There is no guarantee that you can run out to the store, buy a jar, and return before your dessert turns into a puddle.
But it has been done before.
Comments (119)
Send Lidge to the minors for awhile, if he can't fix it there use him for trade bait next year.— gogetem- A more refined assessment than one of your scribe colleagues, "Don-replace-Lidge-now-McKee." Great stuff as usual Murph.— phairmount
- the problem is not the absence of a cherry but the presence of a turd. a turd on top of your sundae. ruins the whole thing.— john petty musselboro
Comment removed.- I think the real issue is how long is charlie sticking with lidge before he realizes he blows? Will it be too late by that point?— aldawg
- Great post, David. I am still very concerned, as should be anyone who actually watches the Phillies play, but your point is duly noted. In the end, I continue to believe that the Phillies need a Lidge of some resemblance to the 2008 Lidge to go far in the playoffs, and the only way for that to happen is to pitch Lidge as long as you can. He won't get better riding pine. We may well get to the point where letting him pitch the 9th can't happen, but you are right that we aren't there yet. A point along your same lines that you could have mentioned is whether the Phillies get anywhere without Rollins playing well. Manuel has shown that keeping the faith in bona fide stars generally gets rewarded.
- @John-- that may be the best comment ever posted on High Cheese. It is so true! Just wait until Lidge ruin's one of Lee's gems. That will be the last time for Lidge.— randy_w
- The Astros placed Latroy Hawkins on trade waivers today....— paolibulldog
- graphically put JPM, but accurate.— fla
- Better than the average column. Well thought & nicely presented. In conclusion, while Charlie has a bowl full of cherries, Brad Lidge is the pits.— defg0003
- There's no doubt that Lidge has cost us some games as closer this year and has been less than effective as a reliever. But this whole closer mystique thing is so overblown. Don't forget that a run in the 9th is worth exactly the same as a run in the 8th or the 4th or the 2nd. If a closer gives up a two-run home run to lose a game 3-4 for example, he didn't "blow" that game any more than the other pitchers who gave up the first two runs (or the offense who didn't score more runs). The object of the game is simply to have more runs than the other team at the end of nine innings. It doesn't matter when those runs came. I'm not necessarily defending Lidge here, who has a terrible 7.33 right now. Just saying closers are overrated.— AMC4232
- Why do we keep talking about this issue? Release the guy... How many more games will it take?— alex.blasscyk
- Dave, everyone is still scarred from Joe Carter, that's all.— UncleEddie
- Hey Murph, breaking news: K-Rod plays for the Mets now.— stormcominin
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- Wow, the Phils lost 4-3 last night! Now, that is news. What I don't understand is how Lidge can remain so delusional. Anyway, the record is 14. If they keep sending him out there, he might get close. He should have blown Sundays game as well. Anyway, if the Phils don't think Madson can do it, then why not try Park? What can it hurt? What, he might blow some saves? What's the difference?— bobcitydoc
- Interesting analysis, but if I read all the facts and comments correctly, only one World Series champion won with their closer pitching poorly, the 2001 Diamondbacks -- who won 4 games started by Schilling and Randy Johnson in their primes (AND had Johnson pitching the final 2 innings of Game 7 on zero days rest). In a short series, only dominant starting pitching can overcome poor closer work (and the Diamondbacks did it only barely, in a 7 game series in which their starters gave up 8 runs in 50+ innings for a 1.43 ERA). Suffice it to say that a lot of Phillies fans would feel better if someone other than Lidge were closing in the postseason. Interestingly, Urbina, Jenks, and Wainwright give hope that a closer change can be made successfully late in the season. But that can only happen if Charlie Manuel stops stubbornly sticking with Lidge ...— Statman
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- Charlie is partly to blame for putting him in again last night. He should have rested him and tried out Chan Ho. Madson already failed the test. Also, do we have to commit errors every time Lidge is pitching? Having said that I still would like him replaced.
- You forgot the best candidate -- Pedro. He should be closing for us this October unless Lidge gets his act together. We aren't going to send him out there to start in October, so he'll be in the 'pen anyways.— VillageIdiot
- charlie has to realize that the 09 lidge is not the same as the 08 lidge the sooner he comes to that realization the better off the phillies will be [and so will there title hopes]— tomarch
- Nice column dude.— ejbphila
- murph, good post...BUT, the problem with your logic is with the WS examples you give each of those teams did have a closer....just NOT the one they started with. the problem here is i don't see charlie making a change....and thus if lidge continues this streak into the post-season the phillies will exit quickly.
- great analogy on the sundae JPM... Hey Murph the final was 6-4, I guess you turned it off because you couldn't stomach Lidge in the 9th!— dinsdale
- Madson and Myers are the answer. Sorry, but Lidge has had it. Release him, or send to Lehigh. I am now convinced after last night's debacle.— ginzo
- as with an alcoholic, the first step is admitting you have a problem. Cholly can't even admit the problem yet and that is a problem.— scootch
- AMC4232, Get a grip. These guys are signed to multi-million dollar contracts to be closers, to hold on to the lead at the end. Starting pitchers are paid to keep the game within reach. If it weren't for the Mets poor closing last year, we may have been watching the playoffs. Learn the game! Don't try to over-simplify to project yourself as intelligent. You're not.— Jamerock
- Murph-- the fallacy in the 'cherry' analogy is that eating a sundae is still reasonably/partially satisfying with or without a cherry. So yes, if the cherry is forgotten-- it stinks but you still end up enjoying the rest. That doesn't translate into baseball. There is no partial satisfaction. It's either a W or L. 8 out of 9 quality innings of pitching still translates into a L-- last night being case-and-point...— randy_w
- Put Lidge on the shelf for the rest of the year, let Myers close through the playoffs. He definitely won't be worse than 7.33 ERA, 9 BS. Next year try Lidge again early and see what happens.— david1
- You are absolutely right in everything you say except you miss the one key element. Lidge is "Charlie's Man". All of those scenarios will only work if Charlie finally admits that someone else can close. Up to now, "Lidge is my starter" period. Romaro, Madson, Eyre, Park, Myers, can not help in the late innings if Charlie refuses to put them in. Hopefully Charlie will come to his senses or have some sense knocked into him before our cushion evaporates. Yeah, we're still 7 games up...anyone watch the Mets the last 2 seasons?!?!?!?— FabFourLover
- If a closer is not THAT important, then Charlie should let the starter or middle reliever or set-up guy continue to pitch, as long as they are pitching well. Even in to the 9th inning if need be. Let the ice cream or chocolate syrup or nuts finish the game.— esesjay
- I didn't want to admit it either but we do have a problem. All we have to do is look at Lidge's history. He gave us a phenominal year last year but the door has slamned shut for him. I do not have any faith in him and the players are losing faith fast. That loss last night hurt the players. You could see it in the way they left the field. On a night when the team intensely faught back to take the lead going into the bottom of the ninth, you have to lock it down. I would like to see Myers and maybe see how Mathiesen might fair in that spot into September. The Phils have been great this year at fixing problems as they go. Kudos to Amarro. So I am pretty sure if Lidge hasn't gotten on track by Mid-September they will try to fix it before the playoffs start. By all accounts, Mathiesen has been a flame thrower in his second rehab and he is no spring chicken by now either. After all he has been thru, he should be able to handle the adversity that goes with closing. Just like to see it once or twice in September to know for sure.— SJJim
- Once they get Romero and Condrey back, Madson can close. Stay with Lidge for now to see if he can get some momentum going for late September. If he blows 2 more, get him outta there.— TheDude
- Why would you trade or flat out release a player because of 1 bad year. Did anybody bother to watch this team last year? Do you recall a closer that was dominant and perfect? So a guy has a phenomenal year that ends in a world title, then he has a very bad year. So the bad year out weighs the good one? We know what Lidge is capable of. To say we should trade or release him is incredibly asinine and you know nothing about baseball if you are serious about that idiotic comment. Yeah he sucks this year but why on earth would u trade someone because of 1 bad year. If you want to take him out of the closer role for the rest of the year thats one thing but to just get rid of him?? Thats just ridiculous. Hamels is having a bad year. Should we get rid of him? Rollins up until the past month and a half was atrocious should we have traded or released him?— philliekev04
- Nice article by David and an equally nice one by Rich H on here too relating to Lidge's statistics before his knee stint on the DL, after, with rest and no rest....good reading....., but as most people say, you can make statistics prove just about anything you want. Let's throw out the games on the days he doesn't eat breakfast too and of course those night games when he eats broccoli. Cause I know I couldn't pitch after eating broccoli. Now if we take the chicken McNuggetts when the team's on the road out too, well.......hello mama! He still sucks! His confidence may be fine, his knee may be fine, lady luck may have turned but still millions of viewers cringe while his teammates tighten up their gloves and arms, every time he comes into a game. That's not good. Even a poor country boy like Cholly has to recognize, that ain't good.— Mark1npt
- Murph, your numbers are off. Lidge pitched on 4 straight days on May 29-31 and June 1 and then went on the DL shortly thereafter with knee issues. But he also pitched on 4 straight days on May 14-17 and his knees flaired up after that 4 day stretch also. Lidge never pitched on 4 straight days last year and never pitched on more than 2 straight days after July of last season through the end of the season. Why on earth is Charlie overusing Lidge and pitching him on 3 and 4 straight days this late in the year when the guy has been hurt all year and he's struggling? Charlie is just running Lidge into the ground and throwing gasoline on the fire. Teams always have games where their closer is "unavailable" due to workload. Why the heck isn't Lidge treated as "unavailable" after he's thrown in back-to-back games. He should never be pitching in 3 straight days unless no one else is available. The team isn't going to release Lidge..that's ridiculous...he's signed to a ton of money for the next 2 years so they aren't going to just eat that and, if you look at Lidge's numbers over the years, he always goes through up and down periods...he's got the off-season to get healthy and get his mechanics back. The guy still throws 95 mph heat and has his good slider...he just needs to get healthy and get his mechanics back so he's got control and not leaving that fastball up in the zone and get his confidence back. They aren't going to release him, that would be stupid. Sending him to the minors right now isn't going to fix anything, that will just make his confidence worse. Better to ride it out while you've got the lead, get him some rest and see if he can get back on one of his one hot streaks...the guy has always been a streaky pitcher. Plus, he can refuse an assignment to the minors (Myers had to agree to his, you can't just send vets down to the minors on a whim) and the minor league season is going to be over in a week or two.— JimG
- That is the stupidest most homoerotic writing I have ever seen....— ILUVPHILLYCITYOFLOSERS
- Put him on the DL or send him to Lehigh. It's probably a combination of mental and physical. If they're not getting Myers groomed for the closer role they are absolutely crazy. Would you have confidence in Lidge going into the 9th with a 1 run lead against Texeira and A-Rod?— oakie
- The Phillies have vested alot of $$$$ in Lidge for the next several years, so they will give him every opportunity to turn things around. However, they are probably holding out for Myers to return for this year's playoffs and go back to Lidge next year to start the season.— SmartAlec
- Lol, release the guy and have him pitch for someone else for free while the Phils are on the books for 15 or so million the next two years. Right.— ESFjellin
- The guy pitched four days in a row, cut him some slack. I'm tired of "Negadelphia". I'm not giving up on this guy yet. Go Phils!— forkedriverphilfan
- Takeitdeep: Great catch on his oversight, I can't believe he wrote this whole article and didn't realize that K-Rod wasn't the closer for the Angels in '02 and Papelbon wasn't the closer in '04. I do remember Keith Foulke fielding the grounder back to the mound and throwing it to Doug Meintkiewicz. True K-Rod made a name for himself during that World Series run, but not at the closer position. Therefore, if you take out Mariano Rivera's 3 championships, you are left with one closer that he's referring to: Papelbon. I do think Lidge will still be the closer in the playoffs and am not worried about his play on the playoffs.— Phillyphan4evr
- Hey stormcominin, breaking news: K-Rod played for the Angels when they won the Series; that's what Murph is talking about. Donkey.— FireChrisWheeler!
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- Ty Walker ? Why not ?— mick314
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- I remember when Pat Burrell would struggle like crazy year after year to try to find some consistency and to just be the player that we kept hearing that he could be. He went through some horrendous slumps and what I thought was the coolest thing ever is how people still didnt boo him despite the struggles and the slumps. For some reason people still cheered him and supported and stuck by him. I think because he never said a word. Always went about his business and just kept trying hard. Well Im not giving up on Lidge either. I know its frustrating to watch. Its not like Lidge isnt trying and its not like he's purposely setting out to blow these saves. Im not giving up on him because i know how great he can be and i know that no matter how frustrating it is for us fans its probably 1000x's more frustrating for Brad Lidge himself. He deserves our support. I know last year was year and this is a new season but the guy did win us a world series for God sake. He gave this city the title they've had been waiting what seemed for like forever, for. Im not jumping off the bandwagon i dont care how crazy it may seem. I'll give up on him when he gives up on himself— philliekev04
time to chop the tail off the lizard.— potus- His ERA is 7.33. It has been in that range all season long. Name another team that would allow someone to struggle like that all year and still hold his position as closer. There isn't one. Lidge has used up all of the goodwill he built last season and then some. The guy obviously has serious issues. The Phillies will not fare well in the playoffs if he is not removed as the closer.— cnphilly
- HEY: It just hurts to think that the Phils could be about 12 games up by now. It ain't over yet.— mungman
- Great, well thought out posting. Another possible option is from outside the organization. It was just reported that Trevor Hoffman was just put on waiver from Milwaukee. I'm pretty sure he has a one year deal there... he could be a great rent a player.— terryharmon
- Great column Murphy. It's refreshing to see a well thought out and insightfull article for a change, as opposed to the lazy slop most of the Philly writers put out.— Rauuuul
- I would not trust any of the current bullpen members with the closer role if you take it from Lidge. This leaves you without much in the way of options. If Myers can come back, then he could be the guy, but other than that, I don't see that they have many choices other than dancin' with the date they brung.— Steve2181
- This article makes no sense whatsoever. The only question is whether to contuinue with Lidge or not. In none of the above did a Series champ go with a closer who was absolutely tanking--to the tune of an ERA of over 7.00. If the point is that the Phillies can still replace Lidge with any of the above or a committee and still win the Series, of course they can.— Jim C.
- It doesnt hurt to think that at all Mungman. Yeah it would be nice to be up by 12 games but we've been in first for most of the season now and we're up by 7 games with month to go. Id say thats pretty darn good. It beats the position we were in the past 2 yrs at this point in the season. Im not saying this to you speficically but come on.. some people are just never satisfied. They're up by 7 games and you want them to be up by 12. I understand what your saying because of the games that we shoudlve won that were blown by Lidge but come on now.— philliekev04
- How is everyone saying this is such a great column...it is not accurate! I do think the Phillies will be fine without Lidge being...well Lidge, but check your facts before you use them as examples.— Phillyphan4evr
- AMC4232 You couldn't be more wrong! Lidge is supposed to come in and shut down the other team for 1 inning. If he fails we often loose the game because we don't get another at bat. The reason teams like the Yankees and Red Sox are successful teams is because the have shut down pitchers in their bullpen so if they have a 1-2 run lead in the 7th inning chances are they'll win the game, far too many times this season did we have a lead only to be blown by "lights out lidge"— K_Ball
- Actually, the Phillies lost 6-4 last night. I came home from work in time to watch the comeback and the blown save. Kinda depressing. But you know something? I have a real problem with throwing a guy under the bus for a bad year when he was an integral part of the team breaking the Billy Penn curse last year. I'm not saying that something shouldn't be done here, but since no one here is a pitching coach or a manager, I say that we leave those decisions to the experts.— Raiderfan
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- I don't like cherries. People put too much value on them. I've had a million crappy sundaes in my life that people pretend are amazing just because they threw a freaking maraschino on top of it. I'll take a sundae with amazing ice cream, rich hot fudge, and freshly-whipped cream and let you keep your moldy cherry over a bowl of melted ice cream and curdled whipping cream but a pristine cherry any day. Cherries are overpriced,unreliable in quality and give me the runs. I don't much care for closers. People put too much value on them. I've seen dozens of teams pretend that they have amazing bullpens just because they have a lights-out closer. I'll take a bullpen with six-plus solid left- and right-handed arm that operates with a closer-by-committee approach over a bullpen of question marks followed by an exclamation point closer any day. Closers are overpriced, often have unreliable control and often give up too many runs. That said, the best sundaes I've had in my life usually have cherries on top because it's the classy thing to do. And what do I care? Some people like cherries.— zackn
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- I'm right with you. Lidge isn't indispensable and closers are over-rated. You could hardly pitch worse than Lidge and he still has converted about 70% of his save opportunities, so just throwing him out as is just makes the likelihood of the short series' the Phillies enjoyed last year smaller, but they can still win. Sit Lidge down and use a committee of Park, Myers, and Madson (RHP) and Eyre and Romero (LHP) as the situation requires and I think the Phillies are just as good as last year.— jtj06
- Good question alex, that is the one question I would ask Charlie. How many more games will Lidge have to blow before you say enough? 3, 4, 5 or is he your guy even if he blows every single game he's in the rest of the way?— Bex
- Never good to come back from the gym and discover that a stupid error has distracted attention from your central thesis. The Papelbon error has been fixed. Keith Foulke was the closer that year. My apologies.
- It seems like we have a problem since the Phils' have had to use Lidge for the past four games. What are we going to do if we need a closer tonight or tomorrow night if Lidge is the only guy who can close for us? Do we simply blow each game or win by 8 runs? What are the options since Charlie painted himself into the Lidge corner. "Lights Out" Lidge has become "Nights Off" Lidge.— jrquixote
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- Let the Lidge apologists begin— Dr. Michael
- Lidge is TRASH! He was great last year but that was LAST YEAR. He is just horrendous and disgusting to watch this year. Even when he completes a save, he just makes you nervous...almost always giving up hits and walks. And then he so easy to steal on...puts a man in scoring position all the time. If Manuel and the Phillies don't get him the hell out of there, he will be our demise in the playoffs and we will not repeat as champions. The same thing will happen like Mitch Williams in 1993(if we get that far). WE WANT WINS...NOT LIDGES! Get that trash outta there.— eaglebeef
- Lidge just has no confidence anymore. They lost faith in him in Houston, he comes to Philly and is perfect for one season. The ups and downs of this guy lead me to believe he just needs confidence in himself.— xanderphil26
- Brett Myers will be the post season closer.— Jeff Dowder
- Lidge has an obvious lack of confidence-he appears done Brett Myers has the right "make-up"to close-if healthy-give him the job!! I cringe every time they bring in Lidge— hmitch
- ha u people are so dumb - release the guy? ha. u same bozos said "release rollins" in june, and are prob about to say "release cole" - you donks stick w/ ur eagles b/c you dont understand baseball and how it works— bkid2424
- Getting Myers back will help this team a lot. He gives Charlie more options in the late innings. Right now if you move Madson to closer, who is the set up man? Park? If you don't wa Lidge in the 9th why have him pitch in the 8th. Myers will allow Charlie to put a number of different guys in the closers role. Go closer by committe in September and October.— wtphillies
- I would like to point out that most, not all but most, major league pitchers need 3 quality pitches to be successful. Both closers and starters alike, you need three pitches to be successful at the highest level. Cole Hamels and Brad Lidge have two major league quality pitches, and this season their fastballs have absolutely no location or finess on them. My point, it is hard to set up and finish batters with only two quality pitches, especially when one isn't working.— gulls3012
- With the team going as good as it is now, it is easy to be objective and mull over the possibilities. I have been advocating Chan Ho park for a while now, ever since I saw it posted here. The logic for it is inescapable. But Charlie and/or Dubee probably won't go for it for various "baseball" reasons...(known only to them I'm sure). The situation IS fixable as soon as Charlie acknoledges there is a problem that NEEDS fixin'.— TBear
- The sky isn't falling ... Charlie should have continued to bring him along slowly. 4 straight just put him back to square 1. The Phillies need to show a little more intelligence in rebuilding him.— Grazman
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- The Phils and Manuel are just biding their time until Myers is ready. He will be closing for this team by the end of September. Until then, they're just hoping to get Lidge straightened out before the playoffs. Remember all the talk about who would go in the bullpen when Pedro was ready to pitch? Everyone on the team said repeatedly that Moyer wouldn't be a good fit in the bullpen, his stuff wouldn't work there, etc. Guess what happened when decision time came? They can say all they want that Lidge is "their guy" and there are no plans to replace him as closer, but once Myers is an option and decision time comes, Lidge will be setting up for Myers or DL'd to get himself straightened out in the minors.— ChrisInVT
- We are seven games up and will get some key guys back in september. There is no need to talk about trading him or releasing him. Calm down.— phillyfan14
- What bothers me about these analogies is that, as you pointed out, in the 10 years story, the teams WITHOUT the closers did not return. AND, the team approach by the Rays did NOT will them a WS. I don't know what will work. It doesn't appear right now that the Phils mgmt does either. I hope they figure it out. But when Brad comes out of the bullpen now, I hear 'wild thing,' not 'lights out.' (yeah, everyone loves Mitch now, but remember those games??? I almost had an accident driving home one day during the play offs.)— deb2
- If the Rays made it to the World Series last season using a closer-by-committee approach, why is the writer reluctant to suggest that the Phillies go with a closer-by-committee approach? Does Lidge have a contractual understanding with the Phillies that he will be the Phillies exclusive closer? How many blown saves by Lidge does the writer need to see before he would adopt a closer-by-committee approach?— Gnip Gnop
- Maybe, just maybe, if the Phils didn't leave so many men on base..... and did their job of taking advantage of scoring opportunities, they wouldn't need a "closer" so often. This is a team, afterall.— Transplanted Phils Phan in NY
- Anyone who actually thinks releasing Lidge is the best idea should be restricted from posting on this site. I have a question for those commenters who want that outcome: How can you be confident that Lidge won't return to form next year? Think of how dumb the Astros looked for ditching him. When we get to spring training next year, no matter how this season turns out, Brad Lidge will be the closer of this team to start the year once again. So just accept it.— yougottabelieve26
- I believe one point overlooked by Murphy is the impact on the psyche of a ballclub, particularly when taking a lead in the late innings, only to have the closer blow it. Same with starters who see the closer blow their games. It puts more pressure on batters to score beaucoup runs to avoid a late-inning meltdown and often lengthens the games (when extra innings because of a blown save) and helps to fry a bullpen. Watch Rivera, watch Papelbon, watch Fuentes; generally quick innings, game over, team confidence soaring (although the Red Sox can't hit, which is a seperate issue). Watch Lidge from last season; if Murphy thinks the Phillies could have won without him, he is nuts. Right now, unfortunately, Lidge is melting down as he did in Houston, forcing the Astros to unload him. He has quality stuff, but poor location for whatever reason this season and, while the Phillies have a seemingly confortable lead, his pathetic performance can erode their confidence and may erode their lead as the Marlins have the kind of pitching that could still overtake them. More importantly, Charlie may follow Fregosi's lead and keep Lidge as his closer and not, as Murphy hints, replace him anytime this season. He is stubborn and loyal. As for being grateful to Lidge for last year, yes, we are grateful for LAST year, but this is 2009 and right now he is awful, the worst closer in major league baseball, and last time I looked the Phillies are still charging high prices to watch them play. That is a fact, whether we like it or not. My sense has been and continues to be that the Phillies should place Lidge on the 15 day DL and have the knee thoroughly examined, and in the meantime use Park as the closer and Moyer as the long relief. If, as I suspect, Lidge is hurt, then if Park works out, keep him in the closer's role. If not, then hope Myers is ready in September. Or, if Lidge is not hurt, hopefully he can get his head straight while on the DL.— chuckw
- History is repeating itself. Mitch Williams all over again. Remember this post when WS time comes. Phillies will not win WS if he stays with Lidge. The whole ball pen should be used to close. Closer, who's batting, which relief pitcher gets that batter out. So simple even a caveman can do it.— drh1949
- Love the way you use this space for indepth analysis, brainstorming and pondering. This is what I look for here. Great stuff.— kazoob
- If a toy is broken do you keep playing with it? If your car won't start how many batteries do you go through until you get it to a mechanic. Put Lidge on the shelf until he is reliable. Let the bulllpen close the game. Charlie...stop being Buddy Ryan....how did that work for him? Win two in a row and they will put a statue of you at the Bank......!— flabird1954
- Lidge has blown 9 saves in 123 games. That's one blown save every 13.6 games. If every series in the playoffs goes the full legnth, we'll play 19 games, or he'll blow 1.5 saves, and loose us one game. It isn't the end of teh world. Hamels pitching like he is now, or Howard going 0-series would be a worse case then Lidge blowing 1 save in the playoffs. That said, it is time to explore the alternativs serriously.— fan_in_jerusalem
- you cant send him to the minors and he's making 12 mil so you cant release him..come on... charlie screwed up putting him in there last night for the 4th straight game... anyway, chad qualls and trevor hoffman both put on waviers today..not that they would make it to the phils, but worth keeping an eye on... myers might get a chance, but you can't expect too much from him at this point..— jim715
- The Brewers placed Rollie Fingers on waivers 24 years ago. He just turned 63 yesterday and he'd still be better than Lidge.— pbothum
- gogetem: "Send Lidge to the minors for awhile, if he can't fix it there use him for trade bait next year." ----- trade bait? are you kidding me? we could get more value for bruntlett right now— NovaWildcats36
- Chan Ho! Chan Ho! Chan Ho! Love ya Charlie but pull the trigger.— jburd641
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- Does he need to be dominant? No....but he needs to do better than have lefties hit him at a .336 clip and righties at .290+.......we might as well have kept Adam Eaton as our closer. That's how similar their numbers are. Hard to believe we are actually having this conversation.— Mark1npt
- This post is ridiculous. Your logic makes no sense. All of these teams that have won a World Series recently either had a dominant closer or dumped their closer who was not performing, so therefore The Phillies should stick with Lidge? Maybe it's me, but I don't understand that logic. Also, the Phils haven't clinched, remember the last two years? It might also make sense to try and get the best record in the league over continually sending out a closer that throws bp.— azazo26
- FLASHBACK to the 2001 world series..B.H.Kim blows 2 games in yankee stadium in monumental fashion...but the d-backs get to game 7 and scrape together a rally against the great Mariano Rivera and win it all... i could live with a similar scenario in 09— jim715
- Great news: the Phillies have a trio of closers at the ready: Mitch Williams, MLB network; Larry Andersen, radio booth; and Ricky Bottalico, Comcast Sportsnet. Alternate them as closers and we can't miss.— chuckw
no matter how many blow saves lidge gets,,,cholly is gonna stick on him like flypaper,,— hardball- Comment removed.
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- IMHO, Lidge should have been yanked last night as soon as he blew the save.— malaysian mink
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Lehigh season is over September 7th. Not an option for Lidge. We get expanded rosters on September 1st, so let the auditions begin. I give Brett Myers 3 to 2 odds and Pedro Martinez 2 to 1 odds. Lidge will be done. You didn't hear Charlie say anything about Moyer moving to the pen until it was about to happen. Don't assume because Charlie stutters it means he is stupid and oblivious. REPEAT 2009!!- Lehigh season is over September 7th. Not an option for Lidge. We get expanded rosters on September 1st, so let the auditions begin. I give Brett Myers 3 to 2 odds and Pedro Martinez 2 to 1 odds. Lidge will be done. You didn't hear Charlie say anything about Moyer moving to the pen until it was about to happen. Don't assume because Charlie stutters it means he is stupid and oblivious. REPEAT 2009!!
- Lets look at the poor defense the Phillies have been providing Lidge on the mound. Werth's bobble, and Ruiz's past ball didnt help the situation either last night.— Sagido
- Cherries Jubliee— stoky
The guy was instrumental in healing our years-long lingering pain and I think we all respect him and are respectful of that. However, he is not getting the job done right now, and that is just business, not personal. His history suggests, he will return to form next year, so lets not give up on the guy entirely. However, this season, as much as I appreciate Charlie's loyalty to his guys, its time to face the facts. Look for the best alternative, because, clearly Lidge's season is washout and he loyalty is difficult to cling to when the ship is going down. There is too much at stake here...let's not play games.— Neebo
Being closer is more mental than stuff. That's why Madson couldn't do the 9th but can do the setup. I pick Myers since he would have the "stuff" as well as the mentality that needs to go with it. No matter what, the team has lost confidence in Lidge and the article shows that past champs have fired closers and still won. The Cubs recently sat Gregg for being less ineffective than Lidge.— burholme- stop comparing rollins with lidge their is no comparison..rollins is an everyday player valuable on offense and defense(when he gets into a long slump like this yr. drop him down in the line-up). rollins has 2 gold gloves but should have 3 or 4. lidge is making over 12 million a year to pitch 1 inning when his team has the lead(he can't field, hit, or run) has an earned run avg. at almost 8.00 and has lost many games. stop the bs and make the change NOW forget about waiting until late sept this team maybe behind the marlins or braves in late sept if this pattern hanging onto lidge and his blunders keep up.— only 9
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- Trevor Hoffman is on the waiver wire, get him and call it a day with all this...Lidge is done for the season, I think a stern sitting will help him in the long run— lcammisa12
- props to john, lol as homer would say, "it's only funny 'cause it's true"— penn79
- What does Wildthing have to say about the Lidge situation? He was a scary as Lidge!— brinkmang
- What to do? What to do? Releasing Lidge is preposterous - that's just ill-informed people spewing from frustration, where good decisions never originate. You can't send him down with 12 games left in the minor league season. So is it physical? If it is, the Phillies better find out ASAP or it's negligence. The odds favor mental -- given his history and given that his fastball hasn't lost MPH and his slider is still sharp, although not as consistently. I was cool with Manuel's approach of sticking with Lidge; Charlie's loyalty has paid off big time. But blind loyalty to a person or a role is foolish (see: Jim Fregosi, 1993... Roger Mason was dominating!!). It's not only time to give others a shot at closing, but if Lidge's problem is mostly mental, then having him pitch the 7th or 8th for a while might be the break he needs. If his teammates can get the job done, more pressure would be removed. And if Madson/Myers/Park/Romero/etc. fail and we have to go back to Lidge, in a way it would also lessen the pressure on him. e.g. following a bad singer at karaoke. Our best closer, in theory, still remains a Brad Lidge with his head screwed on straight. (Though Trevor Hoffman intrigues me.) Experimenting with other closers right now, I think, offers the biggest upside all around.— PhilaLogic
- What to do? What to do? Releasing Lidge is preposterous - that's just ill-informed people spewing from frustration, where good decisions never originate. You can't send him down with 12 games left in the minor league season. So is it physical? If it is, the Phillies better find out ASAP or it's negligence. The odds favor mental -- given his history and given that his fastball hasn't lost MPH and his slider is still sharp, although not as consistently. I was cool with Manuel's approach of sticking with Lidge; Charlie's loyalty has paid off big time. But blind loyalty to a person or a role is foolish (see: Jim Fregosi, 1993... Roger Mason was dominating!!). It's not only time to give others a shot at closing, but if Lidge's problem is mostly mental, then having him pitch the 7th or 8th for a while might be the break he needs. If his teammates can get the job done, more pressure would be removed. And if Madson/Myers/Park/Romero/etc. fail and we have to go back to Lidge, in a way it would also lessen the pressure on him. e.g. following a bad singer at karaoke. Our best closer, in theory, still remains a Brad Lidge with his head screwed on straight. (Though Trevor Hoffman intrigues me.) Experimenting with other closers right now, I think, offers the biggest upside all around.— PhilaLogic
- Oops re the double post... One more thing which told me Lidge's problem is mental, and that more blown saves were coming soon, was after the triple play in New York. Lidge spoke openly about how hopefully his luck had finally changed. That is NOT how confident athletes speak or even think. So even though he was solid vs. the mets, that's when I thought Manuel was going to have to change course... At this point, shifting Lidge to the 7th or 8th for, say, 2-3 weeks and letting him feel like his teammates have his back couldn't hurt Lidge's confidence any more than it has been already.— PhilaLogic
- great line about the turd, musselboro— LaZeRIraze
- THIS IS THE MOST EMBARRASSING POST EVER WRITTEN! KRod threw 5 inning in 2002, and was setup man for Percival in the postseason. Papelbon reached the majors in 2005. This writer bases on antire thesis on two things he is totally wrong about, and which could have been fact-checked in 5 seconds. An unreal piece of absolute drivel!— Metsin2010
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