Brad Lidge, Braden Looper, Cherries, and a look back at history
News blogs, sports blogs, entertainment blogs, and more from Philly.com, The Philadelphia Inquirer and the Philadelphia Daily News.
Brad Lidge, Braden Looper, Cherries, and a look back at history
David Murphy, Daily News Staff Writer
Let me start by saying that I like cherries. I value them. They are one of my favorite fruit. But while an ice cream sundae may not taste its best without one, it is still an ice cream sundae.
I say all this because I am about to talk about closers, which to me are baseball's equivalent of a cherry. This topic of discussion arises from last night's melt-down in Pittsburgh, where Brad Lidge blew his ninth save of the season and gave fresh fodder to the we're-doomed-if-this-continues crowd.
Again, let me re-iterate. I value cherries, and I value closers. There is no question Lidge was one of the key factors for the Phillies' World Series title last season. Without him on the mound pitching at his best, do they win Game 5? Maybe. Maybe not.
Would a dominant Lidge greatly enhance the Phillies' chances of repeating this year? Absolutely.
But is a dominant Lidge absolutely necesarry? History suggests no.
In today's game, the closer has taken on an almost mythical status. And rightly so. One need only look at the Red Sox's Jonathon Papelbon, the Yankees' Mariano Riveira, and the Angels' Francisco Rodriguez to see the value in having one player who can shorten every game by one inning.
But I also think our perspective is clouded by the fact that those three players have competed for five of the last 10 World Series champions.
EDIT: As a couple of you have pointed out, Papelbon was not on the '04 team, as originally stated. Instead, the equally-dominant Keith Foulke was. High Cheese regrets the error, although the over-riding point remains the same.
In an ideal world, at least in the one inhabited by the Phillies, Lidge would be included in those ranks. But right now, it is painfully evident that he isn't. Last night, both Charlie Manuel and Lidge seemed at a loss for words following the Phillies' 6-4 loss to the Pirates. For the first time in any of Lidge's nine blown saves, both men seemed to be searching. Their voices were far away when the talked. Their minds were somewhere else. Say this about both men - when they talked on prior occasions, you really felt like they believed that Lidge would turn it around. Last night, however, that conviction was missing in their voices. Lidge talked softly about the difficulty of pitching four days straight, even though he recorded saves in four straight games earlier this season while throwing more pitches over that stretch than he did in this most recent one. He has pitched in four straight games on two other occasions over the last two years, and never with the results of last night.
So yes, the Phillies have a problem.
But it is not an irreversible one, particularly with the influx of arms they could soon receive in the bullpen.
First, let's take a look back at recent history. While five of the 10 World Series Champions from 1998-2007 featured either Papelbon, Rivera, or Rodriguez at closer, five of them did not. And in four of those situations, the closer situation was just as tenuous as it is right now for the Phillies:
1) 2003 Marlins: During the regular season, closer Braden Looper blew six saves. In late September, the Marlins replaced him with righthander Ugueth Urbina, whom the team acquired from Texas in early July. Urbina went on to save four games during the playoffs, posting a 3.46 ERA, including two in the World Series. Looper pitched in three games in the World Series, allowing four runs on six hits with two home runs in 3 2/3 innings.
2) 2006 Cardinals: During the regular season, closer Jason Isringhausen blew 10 saves, then went on the disabled list in September with a hip injury. He was replaced by Adam Wainwright, who had a 3.12 ERA during the regular season, then went on to save four games in the playoffs, pitching a total of 9 2/3 scoreless innings during St. Louis' title run.
3) 2005 White Sox: Chicago had a lights-out closer in Dustin Hermanson, who saved 34 games and posted a 2.04 ERA during the regular season. But in September, Hermanson went on the disabled list with a back injury and was replaced by mid-season call-up Bobby Jenks, who saved four games during the playoffs, including two in the World Series.
4) 2001 Diamondbacks: Byung Hyun Kim saved 19 games and posted a 2.94 ERA during the regular season, then saved three games in 6 1/3 scoreless innings in the NLDS and NLCS. But in the World Series, he blew both of his save opportunities, allowing five runs between them. The Diamondbacks went on to win in seven games.
So how does all of this relate to the 2009 Phillies?
First and foremost, it gives an indication that a closer is an important part of a dynasty. Again -- remember the cherries -- I am not down-playing that. None of the aforementioned four title winners won more than once in the given 10-year span. The Red Sox, with Jonathon Papelbon, won twice. The Yankees, with Rivera, won three times.
But it also gives an indication that if a baseball team is a Lizard, then a closer is the Lizard's tail. If you chop off the tail, a new one will grow. It might take awhile, and it might be painful, and if the Lizard had its druthers then he certainly would have elected to keep the original, but he'd much rather lose his tail than his head.
While the Phillies bullpen has been marred by injuries and inconsistency this season, it also has the possibility of possessing unprecedented depth during September and October.
If the three key performers currently on the disabled list -- lefthander J.C. Romero and righthanders Clay Condrey and Brett Myers -- return during September (a big if, I admit), the team will have plenty of options to sort through in the final weeks of the regular season.
*Brett Myers: He has closed before, reports say his velocity is up over where it was before his injury, and he has the ability to pitch either multiple innings or in the back of the bull-pen.
*Chan Ho Park: Like Myers, he has back-of-the-bullpen stuff as well as an ability to pitch multiple innings.
*Ryan Madson: He struggled in his brief stint as closer when Lidge was on the disabled list, but there is no questioning his stuff.
*Scott Eyre: Manuel used him to retire two left-handed batters in the ninth inning earlier this month in Atlanta before sending Lidge in for the one-out save.
*J.C. Romero: When he signed a three-year extension prior to last season, it was with the assumption that he would give the Phillies a left-handed option for the back of the bullpen.
Right there you have five players not named Lidge who have the type of repetoire it takes to succeed in the ninth inning. Last year, the Rays made it to the World Series using a closer-by-committee approach, using parts far less capable than the ones the Phillies currently possess.
Am I suggesting the Phillies go with a committee approach? No. I'm just suggesting that they have options. And while none of them makes them as strong of a team as they are when Lidge is shutting down the ninth inning, I do think that Lidge's struggles are surmountable.
I also think that Manuel does not need to be in a rush to evaluate his other options. That time is coming, but it is not here yet. Urbina did not replace Looper until the final week of September. The Phillies still need to find away to straighten Lidge out, and with every passing game, there is less and less evidence that they will succeed. But with a seven-game division lead, is there much harm in running him out there until Myers and Romero return, hoping that something might finally click? And, if something does not click, in using the final two or three weeks of the season to implement the back-up plan?
Again, back to the cherries. I am not down-playing their importance. Believe me, there is nothing more frustrating then heaping hot fudge, caramel and whipped cream onto vanilla ice cream and then realizing that you do not have the cherry. There is no guarantee that you can run out to the store, buy a jar, and return before your dessert turns into a puddle.
But it has been done before.
Lets look at the poor defense the Phillies have been providing Lidge on the mound. Werth's bobble, and Ruiz's past ball didnt help the situation either last night.— Sagido- Cherries Jubliee— stoky
The guy was instrumental in healing our years-long lingering pain and I think we all respect him and are respectful of that. However, he is not getting the job done right now, and that is just business, not personal. His history suggests, he will return to form next year, so lets not give up on the guy entirely. However, this season, as much as I appreciate Charlie's loyalty to his guys, its time to face the facts. Look for the best alternative, because, clearly Lidge's season is washout and he loyalty is difficult to cling to when the ship is going down. There is too much at stake here...let's not play games.— Neebo
Being closer is more mental than stuff. That's why Madson couldn't do the 9th but can do the setup. I pick Myers since he would have the "stuff" as well as the mentality that needs to go with it. No matter what, the team has lost confidence in Lidge and the article shows that past champs have fired closers and still won. The Cubs recently sat Gregg for being less ineffective than Lidge.— burholme- stop comparing rollins with lidge their is no comparison..rollins is an everyday player valuable on offense and defense(when he gets into a long slump like this yr. drop him down in the line-up). rollins has 2 gold gloves but should have 3 or 4. lidge is making over 12 million a year to pitch 1 inning when his team has the lead(he can't field, hit, or run) has an earned run avg. at almost 8.00 and has lost many games. stop the bs and make the change NOW forget about waiting until late sept this team maybe behind the marlins or braves in late sept if this pattern hanging onto lidge and his blunders keep up.— only 9
Comment removed.- Trevor Hoffman is on the waiver wire, get him and call it a day with all this...Lidge is done for the season, I think a stern sitting will help him in the long run— lcammisa12
- props to john, lol as homer would say, "it's only funny 'cause it's true"— penn79
- What does Wildthing have to say about the Lidge situation? He was a scary as Lidge!— brinkmang
- What to do? What to do? Releasing Lidge is preposterous - that's just ill-informed people spewing from frustration, where good decisions never originate. You can't send him down with 12 games left in the minor league season. So is it physical? If it is, the Phillies better find out ASAP or it's negligence. The odds favor mental -- given his history and given that his fastball hasn't lost MPH and his slider is still sharp, although not as consistently. I was cool with Manuel's approach of sticking with Lidge; Charlie's loyalty has paid off big time. But blind loyalty to a person or a role is foolish (see: Jim Fregosi, 1993... Roger Mason was dominating!!). It's not only time to give others a shot at closing, but if Lidge's problem is mostly mental, then having him pitch the 7th or 8th for a while might be the break he needs. If his teammates can get the job done, more pressure would be removed. And if Madson/Myers/Park/Romero/etc. fail and we have to go back to Lidge, in a way it would also lessen the pressure on him. e.g. following a bad singer at karaoke. Our best closer, in theory, still remains a Brad Lidge with his head screwed on straight. (Though Trevor Hoffman intrigues me.) Experimenting with other closers right now, I think, offers the biggest upside all around.— PhilaLogic
- What to do? What to do? Releasing Lidge is preposterous - that's just ill-informed people spewing from frustration, where good decisions never originate. You can't send him down with 12 games left in the minor league season. So is it physical? If it is, the Phillies better find out ASAP or it's negligence. The odds favor mental -- given his history and given that his fastball hasn't lost MPH and his slider is still sharp, although not as consistently. I was cool with Manuel's approach of sticking with Lidge; Charlie's loyalty has paid off big time. But blind loyalty to a person or a role is foolish (see: Jim Fregosi, 1993... Roger Mason was dominating!!). It's not only time to give others a shot at closing, but if Lidge's problem is mostly mental, then having him pitch the 7th or 8th for a while might be the break he needs. If his teammates can get the job done, more pressure would be removed. And if Madson/Myers/Park/Romero/etc. fail and we have to go back to Lidge, in a way it would also lessen the pressure on him. e.g. following a bad singer at karaoke. Our best closer, in theory, still remains a Brad Lidge with his head screwed on straight. (Though Trevor Hoffman intrigues me.) Experimenting with other closers right now, I think, offers the biggest upside all around.— PhilaLogic
- Oops re the double post... One more thing which told me Lidge's problem is mental, and that more blown saves were coming soon, was after the triple play in New York. Lidge spoke openly about how hopefully his luck had finally changed. That is NOT how confident athletes speak or even think. So even though he was solid vs. the mets, that's when I thought Manuel was going to have to change course... At this point, shifting Lidge to the 7th or 8th for, say, 2-3 weeks and letting him feel like his teammates have his back couldn't hurt Lidge's confidence any more than it has been already.— PhilaLogic
- great line about the turd, musselboro— LaZeRIraze
- THIS IS THE MOST EMBARRASSING POST EVER WRITTEN! KRod threw 5 inning in 2002, and was setup man for Percival in the postseason. Papelbon reached the majors in 2005. This writer bases on antire thesis on two things he is totally wrong about, and which could have been fact-checked in 5 seconds. An unreal piece of absolute drivel!— Metsin2010
