Charlie and The Lineup Factory
After the front office added two new everyday players, Phillies manager Charlie Manuel takes a stab at the lineup.
Charlie and The Lineup Factory
Ryan Lawrence, Daily News Staff Writer
The last time Charlie Manuel addressed the Phillies beat scribes, we were all in Nashville having lunch and the front office hadn't done a thing to improve the roster.
But just before Manuel and Co. boarded a plane bound for Philly on Thursday, Manuel knew there was a very good chance he had two new pieces for his starting lineup. The Phils traded for center fielder Ben Revere and were awaiting word for Michael Young to accept the third base job.
On Monday, with most of his starting nine accounted for, Manuel tried to take a stab at his 2013 batting order.
"You know, when I think about it, Michael Young, I can hit him quite a few places," Manuel began. "And in the year, two years, Ben has mostly hit second. But, you know what. I can sit here and go over lineups all I want to, but when it really gets down to it, who we have on the corners and in the outfield, that's what is going to dictate where our lineup falls. You can say whatever you want to, but if you're going to have production, as far as RBI and runs scored..."
Like you, Manuel is waiting for the next move. And if history is any indication, there will be another move.
The Phils aren't going to run the foursome of Domonic Brown, Darin Ruf, Laynce Nix and John Mayberry Jr. into the final two spots in their outfield. After trying to fill one corner outfield spot with question marks in each of the last two seasons, there is no chance they go into 2013 with two question marks in the corners.
In 2011, the Phils hoped to replace departed free agent Jayson Werth with Domonic Brown. But Brown got hurt early in spring training, Ben Francisco struggled and the team eventually traded for Hunter Pence.
In 2012, the Phils hoped to replace departed free agent Raul Ibanez with John Mayberry Jr., who finished the previous season on a tear. But Mayberry never took hold of the job when the season began and was out-played by Juan Pierre, a limited veteran who played above the minor league contract he signed last winter.
The Phils could platoon one of those two spots in 2012 - say, Brown and Ruf in left. But they know they need a proven bat in the other spot, and after going cheap in center, they have money to spend, too.
Among the outfield bats still on the free agent market: Josh Hamilton, Nich Swisher and Cody Ross.
Since Charlie won't entertain a lineup until all of the pieces are in place, here's one man's guess. (I'm sticking Carlos Ruiz in there since he will be back as the team's regular catcher following a 25-game suspension).
1. Jimmy Rollins, SS
2. Michael Young, 3B
3. Chase Utley, 2B
4. Ryan Howard, 1B
5. Carlos Ruiz, C
6. Free Agent, RF
7. Darin Ruf/Domonic Brown, LF
8. Ben Revere, CF
9. Pitcher
Comments (130)
Ben Revere should lead off, he gets on base much more than JRoll...Utley 2nd...Young 3rd...Howard 4th...need Young 3rd to split up lefties Utley and Howard.— jim35- Please stop saying Revere gets on base more than Jimmy. JRoll has a career OBP higher than Revere. He gets more extra base hits than Revere. He stole 30 bases. He scores more runs. Revere may some day be a good leadoff hitter, but he's not better than JRoll at this point. Look at the facts before spewing shallow opinions. — cdedrick05
- Free Agent batting 6th would obviously presume Swisher/Ross
@jim: when you resign yourself to who WILL lead off, as opposed to who SHOULD lead off, it becomes a little easier to stomach. That's what my therapist says anyway.. - Batting Revere 8th doesn't make a lick of sense. Not a lick. Batting Rollins 6th DOES make sense to every warm body in the Tri-State region except Uncle Pappy.— Sam Crow
- Let's see, a guy who can't get on base bats lead off. Then the top ground in to double play guy who also can't get on base bats second. Batting 3rd, a guy who hits in the .250s. All three are among the oldest at their respective positions in baseball and thus are high injury risks (how was Amaro to know that many of the oldest players at their position would miss time with injuries?). And that's the TOP of the order. Get your playoff tickets now! — jtj06
- Rollins has a HIGHER career OBP than Revere. Rollins has a HIGHER career OPS, hits more extra base hits, scores more runs, and is the better player and hitter. Revere was a good addition to the team and is a perfect #8 hitter in the NL.
Let the people who know baseball more than you and Warbiscuit make the decisions about who bats where...— cdedrick05 - Right, because career OBP and what Jimmy did 10 years ago when he was 25 is REALLY relevant. JRoll's OBP over the last 4 years is .316 with a sweet .253 BA. That's a pretty good sample size and a decent view of where he's at right now at this stage of his career. And actually if you take last year from April thru August (when he capitalized on minor league callups with a late-season push) he was .302 OBP with a super awesome .242 BA. Revere last year -- his first full season in the majors, mind you -- had a .333 OBP and a .294 BA, not to mention he has the speed to run circles around Jimmy who is 10 years his senior. Maybe you should follow some other teams beyond the insular walls of Philadelphia and realize that Jimmy is really a No. 6 hitter on any championship caliber team. His ability to drive the ball to the gaps would actually play well there. As a table-setter for the lineup, he's mediocre at best. It's time to stop being afraid of settling for mediocre around here
- My Goodness, someone who knows how to "splain it" to em!! Keep it up Stik if you can stand the abuse you will take from the ,"Don't destroy my hero" mob mentality. Don't let them drive your opinions away. It is nice to read intelligent offerings based on knowledge and research. It is a shame the "Heart and Soul is Jimmy" bunch have such a big voice on here and most amazingly ,in the media. What is truly so astounding is that with them all shouting about the aging Phils they can't see it in Jimmy too and it is not a matter of dumping him but simply his place in the order that is what needs to change.
— DUDESKINS - Easy bud, I follow ALL of baseball. I know exactly who Revere is and what he can bring. I favor giving the MOST at bats to the MOST productive player over the course of a year. JRoll and his .760 OPS in 2012 (not 10 years ago) is more productive than Revere and his .660 OPS. Revere would have to steal 100 bags or more to match JRolls production from he top. Revere only had 25 extra base hits. Jimmy had 60. I think Revere could do a good job, and I like the Phil's having him....but right now JRoll is still the better option. My guess is that the Phillies feel the same way, but we'll see... — cdedrick05
- This team is looking more and more like the best case is 72-90 2013.
And since Amaro keeps getting rid of prospects, they'll be headed to the cellar for another decade in the h*ll of baseball.
Montgomery and the shadow ownership group seem determined to drive the Phillies into the ground as quickly as possible.— fmMD - "if history is any indication, there will be another move..." with baited breath, waiting for the next Wigginton, Schierholtz, Nix, Thome, Ben Francisco, Mayberry, Thome, Martinez, Bruntlett, Gload, etc equivalent..clueless rube sure knows how to spot talent— warbiscuit
- Maybe Carlos Pena. Dope — DogBiscuitthedope
- who could forget the great Bowker— warbiscuit
- Back under your rock moron — DogBiscuitthedope
- Isn't the object of a lead-off hitter to score runs? Jimmy scored 102 and Revere scored 70 last year.— prop03
- "if history is any indication..." waiting for the next Herndon, Baez, Contreras, Willis, Qualls, Pineiro, Lindblom... Clueless rube sure knows how to spot talent ..those "low risk, high reward" moves are always so productive...— warbiscuit
- You loved Qualls when he was signed dopey tool — DogBiscuitthedope
- shame someone had to bring up Chollie's name, as fans are currently dealing with Eagles mess and imbecile Clueless Rube's mismanagement and didn't need to be reminded about the doofus in the dugout too— warbiscuit
- Yeah every GM and manager are clueless, shame they can't all be as smart as the brilliant idiotdopeymoronctoolbiscuit. — DogBiscuitthedope
- Revere should hit 8th. It isn't ALL about OBP in the lead off spot. JRoll produces runs, gets extra base hits, and steals enough bagz. JRoll isn't the "prototype" like Lou Brock, but you haters underestimate how good he is.... 23 hr's , 30 steals, 102 runs scored and 68 RBI from the lead off spot for Jimmy. Love him for the player he is.... Not who you think he should be. Revere is a perfect 8 hole hitter in the NL....— cdedrick05
- Sure, bury the guy who hits for average and has the potential to steal 60 plus bases at #8. Put the guy who has the penchant to pop up and stroll down to first base in the leadoff spot, because, you know, he hits a bunch of solo HRs. Makes perfect sense.
— Sam Crow - Hey bud, have you actually looked at the numbers? JRoll has a HIGHER career OBP and OPS than Revere. He gets more extra base hits too. Therefore he scores more runs. And how do you get 68 rbi with all solo home runs? The case for JRoll to leadoff is backed by actual facts, not shallow opinions based on 10 extra stolen bases. — cdedrick05
- wow...thats what we have to look forward to this summer? Ouch. That lineup sucks. They better get a real good FA....— scootch
- Another genius — DogBiscuitthedope
- so-called dogiscuitthedope aka texasyankee said last year that Blanton and Worley are 2 of the best starters in baseball, that Wigginton is better than Pujols and Fielder, that Schwimer would be a future closer and should be offered a long-term deal, that Millard Filmore trailed only Jimmy Carter as this country's best president, insited that Rick Schu was better than Mike Schmidt, never heard of Ted Williams, that Cal Ripken had only marginal talent and that North Korea's president was a wonderful adminstrator... blah blah blah— so-called dogbiscuitthedope is a dope
- Ok it’s now time to review the genius that is DopeBiscuit. He wanted to sign Carlos Pena (LOL, great call idiot) Wanted to sign Mike Gonzalez who is currently out of baseball (LOL, great call idiot) I guess he’s smarter than all GM’s in baseball. Wanted to sign Derek Lee who is currently out of baseball (LOL, great call idiot) I guess he’s smarter than all GM’s in baseball. And last but certainly not least he screamed like a dopey tool that RAJ should have kept Madson over Papelbon and we all know how that turned out. Any more great ideas? LOL what a moronic clown. — DogBiscuitthedope
- The lineup will be a non-stop distraction for the next 4 months. Any lineup that has Rollins leading off and Utley and Howard back to back is a joke.— Phillies2008WSChamps
- hey dogbiscuithedope how's your buddy Heath Bell whom you wanted Rube to sign doing? how about your brother Dontrelle Willis who was going to be a lefty specialist? how about Ron Paul who was supposed to be president...was that really you in the grassy knoll while faking the Moon landing?— so-called dogbiscuitthedope is a dope
- hey dogbiscuitthedope: when RonPaul is inaugurated as president on Febr. 30 will he make you Chief Propaganda Officer?— so-called dogbiscuitthedope is a dope
- hey dogbiscuithedope if you spend all your time and efforts spewing lies, misinformation and insults, do you really think that will persuade the other few million Phillie fans that Chollie Manuel is really a brain-surgeon and that Ruben Amaro really did a tip-top job signing Howard for $125 million, and signing Ibanez, Polanco ,Blanton, Baez, Gload, Schneider, Qualls, Thome, etc and making big trades to rent, e.g., Pence? did you ever read Animal Farm -- did you realize that the pigs were spouting propaganda and that repeating lies and nonsense doesn't make it so? and that's why Ron Paul won't be president— so-called dogbiscuitthedope is a dope
- When they signed Qualls Toolbiscuit posted:
"good pickup -- see that Mrs. Amaro (i.e. "dogbiscuit") has been relaying my constructive criticisms to her son..."— warbiscuit
Of course when he crashed and burned Idiotbiscuit says he was misused, lol, um ok dopey.— DogBiscuitthedope - Hey dopey tool what GM has won more games in the last 4 yrs? Hey dopey tool I can't believe you wouldn't lend RAJ your crystal ball so he could see that Howard would get hurt. Hey dopey tool think we should spend 8 mil on Carlos Pena (lol) great call dopey. Hey dopey tool who would you sign to play CF, of course if we signed Upton, Bourn or Victorino you would whine like the dopey tool that you are complaining he overspent. Hey dopey tool when Halladay was winning a CY award we didn't hear a peep or when he followed that up with another great year not a peep, when he gets hurt here comes dopey tool with his moronic comments, again please lend your crystal ball. Dope idiot moron loser tool — DogBiscuitthedope
- Amazing how the frachise,writers, and posters are still afraid of offending STROLLMAN. My lineup
1-Young
2-Utley
3-Ruiz
4-Howard
5-Rollins
6-Revere
7-Ruf/Brown
8-FA
9-Pitcher
If Rollins can't deal with that he can cry,quit,or ride the pine!! If he won't be a team player, put Galvis in 8 spot and move FA signing into 5 or 6 spot. Don't get me wrong; the Rollins of 4-5 yrs ago would be leadoff,but at this point in time the team needs to be 1st.— Jiminfl - A few points to consider: 1) The Phils didn't acquire Ben Revere, the 3rd best base stealer in the AL in 2012 and a .294 hitter who hits righties and lefties equally well, to hit 8th. He's the Phils new leadoff man. 2) Ruf won't be part of any platoon. Left field is his to lose. 3) Former Rangers, Young and Lee, could make Hamilton want to lower his salary demands and become a Phillie. 4) Acquiring Stanton from the Marlins would not be an impossibility. It would probably require some combination of top prospects and young major leaguers. 5) Swisher would be a nice acquisiton but, if the Phils wouldn't pay center fielders like, Bourn, Upton, Pagan or Victorino their asking prices, it's unlikely they'll pay a right fielder like Swisher an 8-figure salary. 6) A platoon combination like Ross and Ibanez, or Soriano and Ibanez would be very affordable and add the power the Phils need. 7) If any of the above are acquired by the Phils through free agency or trade, there will be a surplus of players to trade, possibly for pitching.— onthebucks
- Ibanez can't play the field. wonder where the phils are on the idea of trading Brown? if they think he's a bust, trade him for Soriano. sounds good. 8th inning pitching is priority number 1.
The most disappointing thing of this off season is Manuel is still the manager. And does anyone really think Utley will be ready after he prograstinated playing two years to get to the final year of his contract?— TomO- hey dogbiscuitthedope, get a load of this:
2011 National League East
Philadelphia 81-81 17 GB— so-called dogbiscuitthedope is a dope - Your next screen name should be "Sybil"... — stan the man too
- You got a point dopey tool? — DogBiscuitthedope
- and when the red soxs get injured they have a bad year. and when the yankees get injured they also have a bad year. howard is a stud. he's allowed to get injured, once.:-)
- Genos has just named a hoagie after Howard. they say his shape is much like Idaho— stoky
- howard was in great shape before he got injured. would you rather another utley who works out so much he destroys his knees and is now permanently injured?
- Carlos Ruiz, with his huge on base percentage, should hit second then move everybody down one notch, BABY!!!— sevillano
- Good,thoughtful post onthebucks. some interesting points that make sense. My post was mindful of what exists at the moment and the probability of a FA signing. Love the way you are thinking my man!— Jiminfl
- Will the "unenhanced" Chooch really be a #5 hitter?— dasher
- Lets see if ' Babe Ruth ' Ruiz hits as consistently and with the same amount of power when he returns to the lineup before he is anointed as the Number 5 hitter.
The outfielder we are supposed to get - does it mean that you are suggesting that Brown and Ruf would only play against righties or lefties. I definitely don't like that. These are young players that need to play everyday to mature in every way - sitting them on the bench for extended periods is a sure fire way for them to fail. I cannot see why you just would'nt have traded Ruf to Texas for Olt if you were not planning on playing him every day.
I think Ben Revere and Dominic Brown could be used as pinch runners in games they don't start - ........If only somebody could convince Manuel that he should do that. He stubbornly leaves Ruiz and Howard in there when they reach base instead of running for them in late innings when we are behind by a run or two. He will have Ruf to add to slow runners in 2013 that will need to be pinch run for if he gets on in late innings.
Of the three outfielders mentioned, only Hamilton would be a difference maker. Swisher and Ross are over rated and probably would be overpriced.I would prefer to see the Phillies stand pat rather than get either one of these two.— candidly - i wonder if ross would fit with this team? also don't want Swisher or Ross for more than 1 year.
- @TomO: "And does anyone really think Utley will be ready after he prograstinated playing two years to get to the final year of his contract?"
Dude - what the F*** are you talking about?— schmenkman - I don't understand why everyone keeps dismissing the idea of Ruf being the full time left fielder. His short compact powerful swing would compliment the lefty due of Utley/Howard. Stop the insanity and go after another starter/back end of the pen arm.— drhoffman
- Well, I think it's funny that people are getting angry at Manuel for this projected lineup when it's the writer's lineup, not Manuel's. Manuel hasn't said squat about who will lead off because it's December. Once they have their whole lineup and are in spring training, then I think he'll begin deciding where people hit. As for Rollins, with his speed and knack for scoring runs, he shouldn't hit any lower than second. You don't hit a guy who can steal 30-40 bases for you lower in the batting order because you're just wasting speed down there. This is also the reason why they should hit Revere 1 or 2. If he can be a 300 hitter, he could probably steal 70-80 bases next year. Having him and Rollins in the 1 and 2 hole will put a whole lot of pressure on pitchers and opposing defenses. If the Phillies get there hands on a bat like Hamilton, Utley would be an ideal fifth spot hitter. If it's someone like Ross or Swisher, Utley should retain his third spot. It's all just guess work, though, until they make that next move.— Hemingway
- @Jiminfl: "If Rollins can't deal with that he can cry,quit,or ride the pine!! If he won't be a team player, put Galvis in 8 spot and move FA signing into 5 or 6 spot. Don't get me wrong; the Rollins of 4-5 yrs ago would be leadoff,but at this point in time the team needs to be 1st."
Where this kind of tirade always runs into trouble is when trying to identify players the Phillies have had (aside from part-timers), who would have fit better in the leadoff spot then wherever they actually hit in the lineup, but were prevented from hitting leadoff by Rollins.— schmenkman - @Jiminfl, @schmenkman means "anyone other than Juan Pierre". He wants you to try naming anyone else that would have fit better in the lead-off spot instead of Jim-ME. He realizes that his argument against your argument doesn't hold up if you mention Pierre, so you're not allowed to go there. — advantasux
- We should take note that the Phils home run leader was J-Roll in '12 with 23. Of course both Utley and Howard had injury plagued seasons and Werth's righty power bat was gone.
If we consider J-Roll as a legitimate 23 plus hitter, he'd give much more value as a #6 hitter than as a leadoff hitter where there'd be fewer men on base when his power hits.
We know that having a base-stealing leadoff hitter whose OBA is around .350 or more sets up the following hitters who will receive more fast balls and fewer off-speed pitches. Since almost all MLB hitters have to be able to hit fast balls decently to reach the bigs, that is the pitch they best in hitting...of course excepting those super fast balls that everybody can't hit. This will produce better contact (via fast ball expectations) by the #2, 3, 4, and 5 hitters.
Young to hit 2nd because he is a good contact hitter.— artfulme - speed makes pitchers stick with the fastball. it's a reason to bat Jimmy earlier, not later in the line up.
- We should take note that the Phils home run leader was J-Roll in '12 with 23. Of course both Utley and Howard had injury plagued seasons and Werth's righty power bat was gone.If we consider J-Roll as a legitimate 23 plus hitter, he'd give much more value as a #6 hitter than as a leadoff hitter where there'd be fewer men on base when his power hits.We know that having a base-stealing leadoff hitter whose OBA is around .350 or more sets up the following hitters who will receive more fast balls and fewer off-speed pitches. Since almost all MLB hitters have to be able to hit fast balls decently to reach the bigs, that is the pitch they best in hitting...of course excepting those super fast balls that everybody can't hit. This will produce better contact (via fast ball expectations) by the #2, 3, 4, and 5 hitters.Young to hit 2nd because he is a good contact hitter. (HTML deleted)— artfulme
- Utley is the Phillies best OBP guy and has 22 stolen bases in his last 162 games. He'd start the games off by making the pitcher work and sweat, not comfortably settle in with a couple quick outs. — jtj06
- By the middle of next year, this will be the lineup:
1) Revere
2) Young
3) Utley
4) Howard
5) Ruf
6) Free agent
7) Rollins
8) Ruiz— passi0natephillyfan - No.
Ichiro RF
Revere CF
Young 2B
Ruf 1B
Brown LF
Frandsen 3B
Valle C
Galvis SS
Howard, torn gut, high ankle sprain and back strain
Utley, Patellar tendonitis and hip injury
Ruiz, 4 broken fingers and knee injury
Rollins, nagging hamstring pull and calf strain
Kratz, concussion .185 batting average— jtj06 - Good stuff, lol. Hate to say it, but all these people speculating about a batting-order when they DON'T KNOW who can play and DON'T KNOW who the opposing starting pitcher is are no more 'right' than you are, have no better chance of success than if they were to just pick names out of a hat, or lottery balls, or blindfolded throw darts at a board.
- Anybody could have guessed that Rollins would bat lead off. Manuel has been neutered. He would never bat his b*tt hole buddy any lower because, truth be told, he's afraid of him. What a "great" manager. It's no wonder they want to play for this fool. He's anything but a taskmaster. Does anybody think Bochy or Larussa would put up with this cr*p? You better believe they wouldn't. Manuel is nothing but a wimp.— ghost of callison
- You're gonna bat the speed guy that you just traded for, who steals 40 bases, 8th in the lineup? LOL! I'm just glad Ryan Lawrence isn't the Phillies skipper.
Revere & Rollins MUST hit 1 & 2 or 2 & 1.
The 2nd biggest problem with your lineup is Utley batting 3rd.
Let's finally face reality and move Utley down in the lineup this year.
He's no longer a 3 hitter for ANY lineup.— makrom - Warbiscuit is the ultimate boutique internet troll... He slams the Phils for overspending, he slams the Phils for skimping, he slams the team for trading away prospects, he slams the team for holding onto prospects too long. He hates every player until "Clueless Rube" trades them, then they were the future of an all-star studded super-team... Everything Gillick touched was gold, but everything RAJ does (with Gillick as his very clear and present adviser) is dog doo. Really, is there a better agitator out there that is clearly just messing with the heads of everyone on these boards? Because honestly I shudder to think if he's serious.— Dante1138
- I don't care who bats where. Its December!! I do care that Josh Hamilton is still out there and we could use him. I don't care how much money he makes because he's a super star. Take a chance if it doesn't work all our old stars can go the next year. It doesnt make sence to go after Ross or Swisher. Doesnt that remind you of Nix and Wigginton. Everybody is worried about taking a chance with Hammiltons past. We just had 2 or 3 guys come up possitive. We're taking chances every day. Lets be honest we don't know who is breaking the law. I want him while we still have our stars.— duncan2288
- Two things come to mind. First, look out Washington and Atlanta! and second, the commentators are going to have to quickly read the line up and set the defense alignments because Rollins Young = a lot of quick innings. That's alot of cumulative outs made at the top of the line up.— jtj06
- Why do you all dopes keep putting pos Howard in the 4th spot? Dude stinks. Stinks.— Campatent
- Campatent, if healthy, and there's no reason to expect he won't be, Howard will likely be the Phillies' best hitter in 2013.— schmenkman
- There is every reason to expect Howard to battle injuries much of the year. He is 33 years old, overweight, unathletic and coming off of two increasingly injury plagued seasons. He was hobbled before the torn achilles in 2011 and ended the season on the DL with a completely different injury. Like Luzinski, Kruk, and Cecil Fielder before him, it is likely he is physically beyond his shelf life. That's why his insane contract extension was almost universally panned outside of Philadelphia. — jtj06
- Why would ANYONE bat Ben Revere 8th???? Makes absolutely no sense. It's stupid even.
Revere obviously needs the lead off- unless your Charlie " Rollins tells me what to do" Manuel.— Keep The Change - @Keep the Change:
Rollins leading off last year: .325 OBP (.316 overall)
Revere leading off last year: .312 OBP (.333 overall)
I don't see an obvious best choice there.— schmenkman - Revere, Utley, JRoll, Howard, Duff, Young, Ruiz, LF, P— jeff gross
- Miguel Cabrera - the first Triple Crown winner since Yaz and last year's MVP - led MLB in hitting into double plays. Look it up.— michael2_19030
- And there is the problem. I love Charlie, but his marriage to J-Roll is frustrating. Let's keep a .260 hitter at the top spot when you can put a potential .300 hitter there.
Should be:
1) Revere
2) Utley (OBP is great)
3) Young
4) Howard
5) Ruiz
6) Ruf
7) J-Roll
8) Brown
No platooning. Stop complaining about lack of power until you give Ruf a legit shot from day one with no platooning. This guy will not develop playing every other day.— bugsyhawk - Agree with S. Crow. Batting Revere 8th makes no sense. The stupidity of this makes this article invalid. The fact that you have a free agent battling 6th is nonsensical. This article was a waste of time. Was it a slow baseball day and this is filler? C'mon man, earn your salt!— lefty27
- @lefty27, unless he improves substantially, Revere will probably be the worst hitter in the lineup, overall, in 2013. Do you really want to give him the most at bats?
And as for OBP in particular, here are last year's stats (Revere's best ever):
Rollins leading off last year: .325 OBP (.316 overall)
Revere leading off last year: .312 OBP (.333 overall)— schmenkman - IF they just sign Hamilton the lineup would be easy to fill out! This would be my lineup... speed at top followed by power 3-8
JRoll, Revere, Hamilton, Utley, Howard, Young, Ruiz, RF platoon, Pitcher— ChangeISNeeded - So let's say Brown or Ruf lead off an inning with a single. Revere bunts them to second, the pitcher bunts them to third, and Jimmy pops out to end the inning. Right?— TVGuy22
- Lineup Geniuses : Baseball 101 - Jimmy Rollins has a higher OBP and OPS BY FAR than Ben Revere. Revere steals bases because he cannot hit the ball far enough to hit a double!
Leading Off is ALL ABOUT RUN PRODUCTION AND SCORING RUNS. JROll does this better than Revere. Not putting Revere down, I'm glad we got him...but he's a perfect #8 hitter in the NL.
Take the names out of the equation - Batter A - Stole 30 bases, has an OPS of .760, hit 33 doubles and 5 triples, scored 102 runs.
Batter B - stole 40 bases, hit 13 doubles and 6 triples, scored 70 runs. Ops of .640.
Which is the better more productive hitter?
Even Warbiscuit cannot argue these FACTS. JRoll is not Lou Brock, but he's the best we have to hit leadoff. Just enjoy him for what he is, and not what you wish he would be...
— cdedrick05 - "In 2011, the Phils hoped to replace departed free agent Jayson Werth with Domonic Brown. But Brown got hurt early in spring training,...'' This is wrong. Brown struggled (after struggling in the Dominican) and got hurt getting his first hit of the Spring. Get your facts straight.— EL Zorro
- It sounds like we have a few experts out there that need to apply for GM/manager jobs. I'm no fan of CM, but we only know the side of the businesss that we are allowed to see through the slanted media. If everything works out this year I want to see warbisquit and the other be man enough to admit they were wrong.— andivalspoppop
- That is a terrible batting order. I would prefer Revere..Young...Utley....Howard....RUF...Brown....Ruiz...,Rollins. Hopefully Brown and Ruf's talent will emerge. The starting pitchers will be between good and very good. Halladay will have to get close to what he was and can Kendrick continue last 7 starts peformance? Bastardo is a big key for pen. Antonio has the ability to dominate. Pap is solid. Fron DeFrautus, Aumont, Horst, Diekman Rosenberg they will need 2 dependable arms.— Don w
- EZ, I'm confused: how is "got hurt early in spring training" substantially different from "got hurt getting his first hit in the Spring" on March 5th?— schmenkman
- So Revere hitting 8th basically means he's a turn the line-up guy. Whoopity-doo— Breaking Bad
- Lawrence is probably right with this lineup but we can't count on Carlos "Speed" Ruiz having another year like 2012. Especially if we get Swisher, he'll be 5th and Ruiz 6th. If we get really lucky, Ruf/Brown outperform Ruiz and he drops to 7th.
Revere is only 24. His offense should improve over the next 2-3 years. He's here because: 1. He's cheap; 2. He's reportedly an excellent center fielder; 3. Scott Boras is Kryptonite to Amaro, so Michael Bourn was out of the picture
— eman - Counnt me as another poster who thinks Lawrence's lineup is ridiculous. No way you bat Revere 8th and Young 2nd. Revere should lead off followed by Jimmy, Utley, Howard, FA, Young, Chooch, Ruff/Brown. The problem with this line up is balance. Too many slow runners and only three good baserunners who whould be at the top of the line up. Hitting Young after Jimmy (a lot of DP) and in front of Utley (too slow) is ridiculous. Batting a player who hit almost .300 with 40 SB last year in the 8th hole after a bunch of slow players and bad baserunner (Brown) and in front of the pitcher is even worst.
— EL Zorro - I'd switch Rollins and Revere. Batting Ruf #7 is a waste of talent. Move him to #4 and breakup the LH/LH back-to-back problem that's plagued us for years. Hit Howard #5. Better yet, trade him and eat half of his contract and still save $50 mil and Ruf plays 1st abse every day.— 1republican
- Schmenkman, my point is that the writer alluded that Brown's injury was the main reason he lost his starting job, sort of, when was his productivity, following his poor showing i the Dominican. As a matter of fact, there was a debate within the organization about his readiness. Charlie stubbornly wanted to give the rookie as much chance as possible when it was evident to many who knows baseball that he wasn't ready after the Dominican fiasco (that same year Michael Martinez hit over .300 and made the Domincan AS game plus was part of the Dominican Team that played in the Caribbean WS, so you can have an idea of how bad Brown was playing at the time). Amaro went as far as saying the he needed more playing time in the minors. To this point, a lot of us were right. At the time of the injury, Brown was hitless in 15 AB with 9 KS. Charlie, in his usual way, kept throwing the kid out there hoping he'll come out of his slump when it was very clear he wasn't ready.— EL Zorro
- EZ, the Dominican "fiasco" was too small a sample to base anything on, as evidenced by the MiniMart .300 average.— schmenkman
- how incredibly stupid and spineless of this author to project a line-up that he THINKS Charlie will go for, as opposed to what the author believes himself.
Or does the author truly believe that our swing-for-the-fences pop-up machine J-NoRoll really deserve to stay at the top of the order, even after he collected 23 home runs for just 60-some RBI's. Doesn't his rediscovered power and all-or-nothing approach at the plate scream out for the 6-hole????
Not sure which is worse, if he writes this stuff to curry favor with Manuel or if he actually also believes it himself?— advantasux - Rollins was the Phils most consistent hitter last year, but please keep bashing the guy because he doesn't play small ball like David Eckstein.— JCKevo
- Here is my choice of a line up...Rollins-SS, Revere-CF, Young-3B, 1B-Howard, OF-FREE AGENT?, 2B-UTLEY, C-RUIZ, OF-RUF/BROWN, P------.
REVERE BATTING 2ND BECAUSE HE MAKES SO MUCH CONTACT, TRY TO ALTERNATE A LEFT/RIGHT BAT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. RUF OR BROWN COULD MOVE AHEAD OF RUIZ IF THEY PRODUCE.
— rhendzel - @advantasux: "at the top of the order, even after he collected 23 home runs for just 60-some RBI's"
You know, if I read that carefully several times, even I can get a sense of how the first part might influence the last part.
In the end, Revere's and Rollins' OBPs are not that different. If high OBP is what you're after, either hit Utley leadoff, or put Young there and hope for a rebound.
The "all or nothing" claims do not stand up to scrutiny.— schmenkman - his rediscovered power needs to be parlayed into what is best for the team. The guy can hit the long-ball, no doubt about it, and drives the gaps as well. Would be nice if his productivity increased from 60-some ribbies to 90-some hitting 5th or 6th. Not sure why that is seen as so insulting to so many of you. — advantasux
- if u think Revere shouldnt lead off than u dont know baseball....and yes I put charlie in that category....over rated— Argos
- Revere is the perfect #8 hitter, he'll turn the lineup over better than anyone else and be on base for the others,.....those that are stuck in mommy's basement need to come out for a little sunshine once in a while— SyddBarrett
- Revere, unless he improves substantially, will probably be the worst overall hitter on the team in 2013, and batting him leadoff will mean the worst hitter will get the most at bats.
In spite of that, I would not be upset if he led off. He'll get on about as much as Rollins (although Rollins gets himself to second on doubles more).
I just don't see why anyone would be strongly opposed to Rollins continuing to hit there, at least until Revere improves as a hitter.— schmenkman - why not, for once, look at this issue from the other end of it? Rollins is either our 2nd-base home run hitter in this lineup or 3rd-best, depending on Ruf's maturation and the opportunity he gets. Wouldn't it be nice to have Rollins knock in 90 or more hitting 5th or 6th instead of 60 - 70 in the leadoff spot? Would that not benefit the TEAM for once? — advantasux
- syddbarrett....too funny....turn the xbox off and let it cool off— Argos
- schmeckman.....worst hitter???? You may want to look at the roster again....because all I see are guys that just want to hit homeruns.....minus chooch....utley and young— Argos
- Argos, I don't care what they WANT to do, I look at their results. And if he repeats his .675 OPS from this year, Revere will be the worst hitter in the lineup.— schmenkman
- schmeckman.....you should care.....there are situations where I dont want a player trying to hit a homerun.....I want him to go the other way.....you can look at the stats all you want...what I see are a bunch of players that just want to hit homeruns...hopefully they trade Rollins to arizona for Upton— Argos
- I don't see that. In any case, results matter.— schmenkman
- schmeck,,,,if u dont "see that" let me suggest u watch more games— Argos
- Please! Can't we be a little more creative? The lineup begs for it!
Unless JRoll gives up the leadoff spot...which he should for 2 or 3, this is what I've got, dealing with what we've seen in the last two years. Charlie and I never agree, but we still might see this happen.
Jimmy Rollins
Ben Revere
Michael Young
Chase Utley
Carlos Ruiz, unless he cannot repeat
Ryan Howard...strikeouts do not a "cleanup" make
RH New guy...we hope Ross to help Howard "recover"
Platoon: Ruf/Brown/JMJr
Pitcher/DH - Frandsen/Galvis/Kratz
What do you say we keep Schneider another year to mentor Cloyd?— ocpizza - @advantasux: "Would be nice if his productivity increased from 60-some ribbies to 90-some hitting 5th or 6th. Not sure why that is seen as so insulting to so many of you."
LOL - Perhaps it was the tone exhibited in this, which came right before the suggestion for him to hit 6th:
"Or does the author truly believe that our swing-for-the-fences pop-up machine J-NoRoll..."
If you want to be taken seriously, that doesn't help.— schmenkman - @dante --yes actually you're correct about one thing: "everything RAJ does ... is dog doo" ... as for your theory about Gillick's input in all the doo doo moves, I'd assume that someone with half a brain would not be making doo doo moves, as you so eloquently put it— warbiscuit
- Definite problem with power in this lineup especially since we don't know how much is left in the tank for Utley and Howard. Still don't know why Howard is left in the four spot with all the strikeouts. Put Ruiz in that slot. He gets his bat on the ball more often. I suppose that would be too much of an insult to the big man. TOO BAD!— fanup
- @fanup, strikeouts do not matter much.
If you analyze every play over several years, and calculate how each type of play impacts the number of runs scored in that inning, on average, a strikeout does not hurt a team's run scoring any more than a ground ball or fly out.
There are situations of course when a strikeout hurts: runner on third, less than two out, for example. But these are balanced by the much more numerous situations where a strikeout is preferable. Runner on 1st with nobody out, for example, where it's better than a double play.
Remember, the Phillies had the FEWEST strikeouts in the NL in 2012 -- how did that work out for them? That was in spite of the various first basemen striking out as much as Howard ususally does by himself in a season.— schmenkman - like them or not, once utley an howard played regularly last year, the teams record would have projected close/right on a playoff record.
I think the team's question of aging is more fluid than we think. Right now, we have 3 starters in their 20's, and 5 who are in 30's. in 2014, we could have asche, a catcher and 2b also in their 20's. That would make howard, rollins and 6 starters in 20's.
I see no need for swisher or ross. If you break bank and go all in on Hamilton, then we'll cheer him on. But I don't really need them to go there.
What would mayberry/brown platoon look like? I remember reading last year that a mayberry/schierholtz platoon would project pretty decent numbers.
Someone said earlier that you trade mid-year if someone like Ruf doesn't work out. I would agree.
I like both trades a lot. a young, team controlled cf for a 4th starter to me is a clear trade. And Young as a stop gap for a year is far better than anyone else on market. I don't expect Young from his prime. Even a slight decline from last year is worlds better than Wiggington. And if Young fails badly, Fransden is there, showing he could be a solid contributor.— kgood - ...lucy in the sky-yi with diamonds... or, put young in the outfield and frandsen/galvis at third.— bubba church & granny hamner
- @kgood, you make some very good points, but I'll disagree on one thing:
Young and Wigginton were exactly the same player in 2012, except that Young had more playing time.— schmenkman - stikolaboloni said it pretty well. Jimmy scored more runs last year than Revere because somehow, guys behind him in the order came through at a higher rate than did Revere's Minnesota teammates. Add in Rollin's HR's, and there is the runs scored difference. So minus the runs scored via the HR, Jimmy was not really any better at scoring runs than Revere. Plus, if Jimmy is going to hit HR's, I think he could help the team more if lower in the lineup. I would put Revere at the top of the order and Jimmy 6th or 7th, but no way on this earth that Jimmy agrees to go there. And even though the manager should have the last word on the lineup, no way Charlie goes against Jimmy. As long as Jimmy plays for Philadelphia, he will bat leadoff, warranted or not. From everything I read, Revere is a fantastic baserunner and will only get better as a hitter, so why not take advantage of each guy's strengths?— MrPhillie
- "I would put Revere at the top of the order and Jimmy 6th or 7th, but no way on this earth that Jimmy agrees to go there. And even though the manager should have the last word on the lineup, no way Charlie goes against Jimmy. As long as Jimmy plays for Philadelphia, he will bat leadoff, warranted or not."
That is a ridiculous, unfounded set of sentences. Please, tell us -- what evidence is there that this would happen. Can you name any Phillies hitters over the past several years, other than part-timers, who would have fit better in the leadoff spot than wherever they actually in the lineup?— schmenkman - @jtj06: "That's why his insane contract extension was almost universally panned outside of Philadelphia."
There are very few reasonable people anywhere who would think that was a good contract. The point was simply that if he is fully healed from his achilles tear he will likely be the Phillies' best hitter (not Young, who will be somewhere around 4th at best).
As for Howard's genearal injury risk, he was actually in good shape before achilles prevented most cardio exercise. You're right that the history for big guys is not good, but who'll have to keep our fingers crossed on that one.— schmenkman - schmek....u make me laugh....i dont know if i should make fun of you or just let u continue to think u know baseball....i think i will go with the latter cause i enjoy ur ignorance— Argos
- @Argos, thanks - I really appreciate it.
Now, is there something in particular you actually disagree with, or not really?— schmenkman - My winning line up that will utilize each players talent....try to alternate a right handed-left handed bat. Could flip Ruiz and Brown when a left handed pitcher is pitching.......
1-Rollins-SS
2-Revere-CF
3-Young-3B
4-Howard-1B
5--FREE AGENT right handed hitter-OF
6-Utley-2B
7-Ruf or Brown-OF
8-Ruiz-C
9......PITCHER— rhendzel - schmek.....Howard will be the best hitter on the phillies......young and wiggs were the same player last year.....revere will be the worst hitter on the phillies....and this is my personal favorite.....strikeouts do not matter much....all of your above statements is a clear indication that you do not know baseball— Argos
- Sigh. Ok, Argos. Let's just take the first one - Howard will be the best hitter onthe Phillies:
There is general agreement (I assume also by you), that there is more to hitting than just a player's batting average. It's how much power they have, how often they get on base, etc. There are various comprehensive stats that account for all that, but the one that's most mainstream is OPS (on base percentage plus slugging percentage). So how do the top Phillies compare in that? You can look at just one year but it's better to look at multiple years to smooth out the spikes and blips. So let's compare the last 3 years, and then also use a projection of what they might do in 2013, based on recent trends, and each player’s age. The only set of projections I've seen so far are from Bill James, but there will be others as the winter progresses.
So, below is their OPS for the past 3 years, and then their 2013 projection:
1. Ruiz .842, .801
2. Howard .822, .838
3. Utley .800, .835
4. Young .771, .759
5. Mayberry .763, .753
6. Rollins .729, .728
Now, you can justifiably wonder how good Chooch will be post-suspension, so there is that.
— schmenkman - @Argos, your second point was to question the comment that Young and Wigginton were the same player last year.
Let me rephrase that. They were both below average fielders when in the field (granted Wiggy was probably worse), and they had identically awful hitting stats.
Wiggy: .235 avg, .314 OBP, .375 Slugging (.689 OPS)
Young: .277 avg, .312 OBP, .370 Slugging (.682 OPS)
Young had the higher average, but didn't walk much, so in the end he got on base about the same as Wigginton. And when he got hits, they were more often singles, so their slugging percentage was also about the same.— schmenkman - shmek....according to ur warped logic Adam Dunn would be the best hitter on the phillies......watch baseball sometime....reading stats dont mean squat— Argos
- shmek....again....Young played more....according to ur logic Nolan Reimold and Trout were the same players.....thanx for the laughs— Argos
- @Argos, Dunn is at .771 for the last three, and projected at .783 in 2013.
But just curious -- how do YOU decide who is a good hitter? Seriously, by watching? Or do you use batting average, and hits, and other stats?
— schmenkman - Yes, Young played more. That's a little more meaningful when someone has a GOOD year, in that it's harder to keep up good play all year long.
In Young's case, I'm not sure what you're saying -- yeah he s**ked but at least he s**ked all year long?— schmenkman - If Dom Brown had been anything near the prospect we were led to believe in the last few years, I would hang in there wuth him. The time and opportunities he has had lead me to believe "what you now aee is as good as we can expect" Time to move on, trade him in a package deal to
bring in a YOUNG OUTFIELDER, instead of a retread, high salary vet.— Philvegas - shmenk.....a good hitter does have good stats....but there is more.....does he go the other way.....is he a good situational hitter....does he do what is needed for the team.....example - Howard NEVER goes the other way which is why teams put the extreme shift on him. You use stats as the 1 and only measuring stick for a good hitter.....now go ahead and tell me that Adam Dunn is a better hitter than Utley— Argos
- @Argos, I don't know where you got the idea that I think Dunn is a better hitter than Utley, but whatever.
Many of those things you list ARE in the stats. If Howard goes the other way and gets a hit, that would make his stats even better (theoretically). But his current stats factor in the fact that he doesn't go the other way, and he is STILL the best hitter on the team.
Same with situational hitting -- Howard hit .329 with runners in scoring position last year, which is why he had almost as many RBIs as hits, in spite of his struggles.
— schmenkman - shmek....ur a lost cause.....good luck in ur "fantasy" league— Argos
- and if Howard a 34 year old all or nothing hitter is the best hitter on the Phillies than we are in trouble— Argos
- Revere, Utley, Young, Howard, Ruiz, Ruf, Brown, Rollins, pitcher— 4thand10
- I just know Charlie Manual will mess this up somehow. I wish he was leaving as well as Reid.— Marie Elena
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High Cheese is your place for the best Phillies coverage from the Daily News.
David Murphy
Daily News Staff Writer
Ryan Lawrence
Daily News Staff Writer
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