Like many folks, Dubee had his suspicions
The two scouts who Ken Rosenthal quoted in his spring training story about Roy Halladay's decreased velocity are not the only people who had some suspicions about the veteran righthander's physical well-being.
Like many folks, Dubee had his suspicions
David Murphy, Daily News Staff Writer
The two scouts who Ken Rosenthal quoted in his spring training story about Roy Halladay's decreased velocity are not the only people who had some suspicions about the veteran righthander's physical well-being.
"I've thought since spring training that there was an issue," pitching coach Rich Dubee said on Tuesday, after the Phillies put Halladay on the disabled list with a Grade 1/2 strain of his lat muscle. "The ball just hasn't been accelerating through the zone the way his stuff does. His cutter has been moving that way, but his stuff is different than most people's stuff. Does he have that 96 (MPH velocity)? No. But his stuff, from the grass through the hitting zone, is explosive. It just took off. It was just more gradual now. It didn't have the finish to it."
So why did Halladay continue to pitch? According to Dubee, it was only the last couple of outings when it became apparent that the veteran righthander was not going to be able to pitch through whatever was ailing him. Heck, according to Halladay, there wasn't even a problem until the past couple starts.
Probably for a couple weeks now he's talked about crankiness, but he's said it's nothing I can't pitch with. After a couple of outings I talked to him, and then last outing, just watching his body language you could tell it wasn't even close to being right. So we got him out of there and hopefully we caught this thing at a good time if there is a good time and we can get it strengthened and get him on the mound again.
"Guys generally pitch with something," Dubee said. "You do not feel 100 percent very often when you go out there. There are lingering things and I thought this was some type of thing that was just a minor, lingering thing and we talked and he said he felt he could deal with it and work through it, and it just never got better and finally we had to stop it and see what was going on.
"Guys pitch with crankiness. Guys pitch with all kinds of crankiness. There is wear and tear to pitching. This went from just a crankiness and not feeling right to all of a sudden the last couple outings it was a little more difficult. The difference was really that he could get heated up, but when he sat down, he couldn't get it going again, he couldn't get the arm speed going again and the velocity and his arm in the right slot, and that just happened in the last couple of outings.
"We always talk. Probably for a couple weeks now he's talked about crankiness, but he's said it's nothing I can't pitch with. After a couple of outings I talked to him, and then last outing, just watching his body language you could tell it wasn't even close to being right. So we got him out of there and hopefully we caught this thing at a good time if there is a good time and we can get it strengthened and get him on the mound again."
Nobody is quite sure when the injury happened. Dubee pointed out that Halladay shouldered a tremendous workload in his final outing of the 2011 season, throwing 126 pitches in eight innings while trying to maintain a 1-0 deficit against the Cardinals.
"I haven't seen the stuff you expect to see out of him really since spring training, so you wonder," Dubee said. "You wonder what happened. We leave the season last year, he pitches a whale of a game the last day, was it happening then, did it happen when he started long tossing? You really don't know when it happened. Does it happen over wear and tear? There's a lot of things you could throw into the equation. But it is what it is and hopefully we caught it at a good enough time where three weeks of rest and reshaping his lat and strengthening it again we can get him back on the mound."
The news is better than it could have been.
"It could have been the labrum, it could have been the rotator cuff," Dubee said. "If there is good news from an injury, this is probably good news."
Comments (54)
Kind of makes you appreciate Cliff Lee's approach to injury and discomfort. Stop before it gets worse and then get better sooner. It sounds like Dubee has created a macho culture there where you are expected to pitch through discomfort until it breaks. Let's look back at Worley, Bastardo, Stutes, Blanton, go back further to Lidge, Romero, and who knows who else - all expected to pitch through a "minor" problem until it becomes DL-worthy. OK. I'm not a Dubee fan. He teaches the change-up, runs Spring Training, and takes in-game interviews for Manuel. What's he do that makes a difference and someone else couldn't do?— calm weather- I wish Doc the best in his re-hab!! He is such a competitor, it will be awful to sit on the sidelines
— SalGalB43 - The only thing that bothers me is that the phrase "Dubee had his suspicians". If he had suspicians, then why didnt he act on them instead of letting him pitch and get hurt. I know players hide injurys, but pitchers stand out like a sore thumb when they are hurt, especially to a pitching coach. Too much stuff going on this year that seems suspect, its a wonder we have a winning record. Dubee needs to be pro-active instead of reactive,because once you get reactive, its too late....!!!!— huntnmike3666
- I'd venture a guess. Dubee would be snapped up fast if he left the team. Unlike Milt Thompson when he left the Phillies, no one rushed to sign him.— phineas
- I don't suppose that Greg Gross would be snapped up either if/when he gets fired. Maybe he'd get a job as a scout or something. Hell, if Pat Burrell could get hired as a scout, then any of these coaches probably could. — SteveS11
- Do you have some insight into Pat Burrell's player evaluation skills? Or are you just demonstrating your idiocy? — CornerPretzelGuy
- I'm glad Dubee is a little more forthcoming in this article. It was clear to me the last few starts that Doc's arm slot was dropping (and his pitches had no bite to them) as he was trying to get comfortable. I mentioned that on here on May 24, 3 days before he came out with the injury. I was truly beginning to doubt tha abilities of the coaching staff and trainers/PTs. If I could see it on MLB.com, how come they couldn't from the dugout? Yes, all players play thru aches and pains. The wimps go on the DL for every little hangnail injury. The true pros, and that's 95% of the players, play hurt during each season don't stop until they get worried that they may be causing tissue damage and obviously that's what Doc thought in that last game. It will be interesting to see how Doc's lat responds and how good it stays thru the rest of the season. It could be great and durable. Or it could be terrible and rip straight thru in his first start back. No telling. (HTML deleted)— Mark1npt
- This is no surprise to any of us Phillies phans who have watched Halladay pitch after his 1st 4 starts. His velocity is down and his fastball/offspeed ratio has been way down (all indicators that he was having some arm/shoulder issues). The way this season has played out, this doesn't surprise any of us phans. What amazes me is that somehow, someway, Cholly & Co. have remained only 5 games out (in the loss column) and have been competative. Most "posters" on these sites continue to rag on Cholly, but this may actually be his best managerial job yet...albeit with some tape, glue, bandaides, etc..holding the forte together. Elarton should get a shot to show his wares.— drhoffman
- The Phillies may as well just write off the 2012 season and start over again next Spring. Only problem with that, of course, is that they'll all be another year older, and that's already an issue. Maybe its time to get into rebuilding mode.— SteveS11
- Start over with whom? They may need a new 3B, CF, LF, SP and some bullpen help. Rebuild with whom. Have you checked out the prospects lately? They don't exactly sound ready for the Show anytime soon. — brio
- Dubee is the pitching coach, had suspicions, but never did anything?
Great job, Rich!— fmMD - Working for Uncle Cholly, you just do your job and say nothing. Plus, the front office probably told him to stay quiet if he wanted to keep his job. This is a "yes man" organization or else you get booted. — sonnybuoy01
- Dubee is as clueless as the other 2 of the triumvirate: 3 stooges Rube, Chollie and Dubee— warbiscuit
- Ask any rower. As soon as the pain dies down get him on the erg. The way this guy works, he'll have the strongest lats on the planet.— Doug Harrison
- Great quotes from Rich Dubee on his thoughts about Roy. For the negative nellies out there, name one pitching coach who has shutdown the ace of their staff. I've read more honest evaluation on Roy in this one story then I have for going on 1 whole season with the Chase Utley situation. Must admit it's kind of refreshing.
And as usual, Mark1npt's comments are insightful as to the ramifications of pitching with this condition....well done! Here's wishing Roy a quick and pain free recovery! He will be missed. Time for KK and JB to step up big time!
— DelawareRiverRat - And Cole Hamels has been talking to Mike Richards and Jeff Carter about how they like living at the beach in LA.— farley
- fmMD--same here! Now he tries to come across as some guru while rubbing his chin saying..."hmmm...the genesis of the issue came at the bottom half of the 8th inning of the last game of last year.." yeah, right.— Sackbutt
- Wishing Halladay a speedy recovery because I can't stand watching Blanton pitch anymore. Blanton keeps letting the flood gates run wild with his pitching. He can't hold a lead and all his pitches have to be perfect for him to succeed. There are a few minor league pitchers in AAA that have been doing well. They might be a tad better than Joe if given the chance.— Pap
- ...I for one have had suspicions since Spring Training...— flank steak
- every time blanton takes the mound (lower case) he makes a persuasive case for the worst pitcher in baseball -- of course pitching coach Dubee appears to have worked miracles with him in his many years here...— warbiscuit
- Dubee has his suspicions that Blanton will become the ace of the pitching staff. — sonnybuoy01
- I've has my suspicions about Dubee for a long time..and have been very suspiscious of Blanton— warbiscuit
- It's fine because Blanton will step up for sure. Wait? What?! 4 earned runs in 4 innings for Philly's most overrated player so far tonight? No, Joe, say it ain't so!— eman
- and this is where some nellie pipes in: "well, true that Blanton may be an atrotious pitcher and is lucky to ever get past 5 innings with fewer than 4 runs allowed, and may not be worth 1/10th of the generous $24 million that clueless rube bestowed upon him, but... but... he once hit a hr in a WS game in a Phils blowout ...and, well, he is good for comic relief in road games without the Phanatic...— warbiscuit
- Hey Moronbiscuit so now it’s on to Blanton after you made a complete tool of yourself (as usual) with your Kendrick comments. BTW Pena is 207 at 7 mil a year; Ramirez is hitting 246 at 6 mil a year. Derek Lee and Gonzalez are still out of baseball and Papelbon is still perfect and Madson is still out for the year. LOL glad you’re not the GM dopey idiot. BTW your “worthless garbage” Pierre is hitting 314, Schneider 283, Wigginton has better numbers than Pena at 1/7 the cost LOL ya dopey loser. — DogBiscuitthedope
- with Pierre's avg falling rapidly, good time to note that Podsednik is hitting .500 (6 for 12) with a hr for Bosox... Amaro sure knows how to judge talent... same guy kept Herndon and discarded Vogelsng, etc..signed Thome for same $1.1 mil. that Ibanez took from Yanks...et al.— warbiscuit
- Over used, he and the pitching staff were over worked from last year, you could see it this year also. Cholly must be blind or stupid not to see this staff wear down like this time to clean the house. Cholly and the staff must go starting with Amaro.— angrywhtguy
- Um, Halladay actually threw less innings and less pitches in 2011 than he did in 2010 and put up remarkably similar numbers, so how can you think he was breaking down? I'm not thrilled with the way this was handled but you're jumping to the wrong conclusion. — freethinker88
- Dubee had a hunch give me a break, is the front office worried about their investment in these players,and they want their moneys worth instead of the welfare of the player. they should have shut him down sooner wether he liked it or not he's helping nobody for the next two months.— angrywhtguy
Comment removed.- Maybe the 5 straight division titles? Dope — DogBiscuitthedope
- I heard Dave Montgomery had buyers lined up for the team at the beginning of the season but now I hear a big sucking sound that the team isn't worth a hoot.— sonnybuoy01
- Comment removed.
- Curious, do you know how incredibly stupid your comment is? Again just curious. — DogBiscuitthedope
- If you were running a business and you gave joe blanton 10 million....You would be fired for stupidity!— jmb53
- What is the BS about Dubee being forthcoming? This piece doesn't change my opinion that Dubee is about as good a pitching coach as Manuel is a hitting guru. It is fortunate that, despite this incompetence, Halladay has a 2 months- on-the-DL muscle strain, and not a more serious structural problem with his shoulder. Gives a bit of perspective to Utey's hesitancy to play until he can manage the pain. Quarterly profit/the hell with the long-term Wall Street mentality finds its way to MLB.— ijj
- 126 pitches in eight innings! I'm not a baseball expert-but why would Charlie let anyone pitch that many times in one game?— disbud
- Ultimately, teams rely on the players where injuries are concerned. All of us knew since Spring Training reports filtered out from scouts that his arm slot had changed, that he had lost velocity on the fastball, which he was using less and less, that is breaking ball of late lacked any snap, but teams don't demand that each player suspected of any injury must go to a specialist. Ultimately, again, the onus is on the player, whose livelihood is at stake, particularly someone as proud and tough as Halladay. Stop blaming Dubee and the front office. Same with the Utley situation; he was not forthcoming during the off-season.— chuckw
- Dubee is old school and it doesn't work anymore - he doesn't make pitchers better!— workin365
Of co8rse, the kiss a** reporters were too busy checking out the babes in left field to actually do any reporting this spring training.- Why is this team continually ignoring problems until they get so serious the player is out of the game? Denila after denial that anything had changed with Halliday while all the scouts knew it. It started with Utley and Howard, then Lee. Now it's clear that Halliday had a problem that could have bene corrected back in spring training and been solved by now, so there would not have been so many bad outings by Halliday and he would be at top form now when the season is getting underway. It's hard enough staying with this team the way they are playing, but the management is making it very hard to trust anything they say.— atp2007
- Hopefully Doc will be the old Doc when he returns. If that happens and the Phils win the division and make the world series, these critics of Charlie will be the first to get on the bandwagon. The only criticism I have is that the Phils should ha ve shut him down when Dubee suspected that all was not right with Halladay.— Drumgoole
- Can they put Blanton on the DL too? We can get anybody and have a shot at him being better.— Ssteve115
- It sounds like this is a systemic issue. What do they do with these guys over the winter? Way to many injuries early. Utley has sore knees and nobody monitors his offseason progress? Maybe this shoulder issue came from throwing 128 pitches at the end of last year? Come on. This is a year round sport. Love Halladay & Utley but they need to take advantage of what the team has to offer and the team needs to do a better job of monitoring these offseason workouts.— Wheelermustgo
- Memo to Greg Gross From: Charley Manuel, Please sit down with anyone who hits and go over, in explicit terms, with charts and drawings, where exactly the major league strike zone is. And then fine anyone who swings at a pitch that is higher than their helmet. The worst kept secret in MLB right now is climbing the ladder on Phillies hitters, you almost need to have he opposing catcher use a stepladder the way they pitch our3-4-5 hitters, especially Hunter Pence. Victorino literally struck out today on a pitch that was taller than he is. C'mon fellas, we gotta do better than this!!!— lancesimmens
- Can I suggest that everyone take a second to use the "report abuse" button when necessary? Note that a boy named "dogbiscuitdope" is posting one abusive and inappropriate post after another, calling fellow posters "stupid" and "dope," etc. There is no place for such name calling on what is supposed to be a civil disucssion board. I have hit the "report abuse" button whenever he posts something like this, and I think that if enough of us also report the abuse, the moderators will soon get the clue and ban this person from the discussion board. It's certainly worth a shot. So please take the second and report this poster and others like him whenever you see these types of posts.— Jamesallen
- "There's a lot of things you could throw into the equation."
Including Cholly killing his starting pitchers.— VicM - Yes, VicM, like when he let Halladay faced 9 batters in the 5th inning in Atlanta, when everybody with a little knowledge of baseball knew something has been wrong with the ace since spring training. He pitched with the bases loaded to 3 different hitters culminating in McCann GS. Then Cholly added insult to injury by sending him back there and his struggles continued. Mercifully, after LH pinch hitter Jason Heyward single in two go ahead runs, he replaced the exhausted Halladay with lefty Joe Savery. Think about it: Atlanta had 2 LH hitters lineup and he left the struggling Roy pitch to Heyward. Of the last 13 hitters he faced, he allowed 9 hits, good for 8 runs. That is stuff that managers do to mop up men. Not to the Ace of the staff. The koolaid drinkers and writers/apologist kept saying he didn't trust the bullpen. This is complete misjudging and mismanaging. Dubee's admissions has to be taken seriously by ownership. I know I would.— EL Zorro
- This is all Charlie Manual's fault!! Letting Halladay hit in the 7th or 8th with more than a 4 run lead too many times & running him out there already at or near 100 pitches. This injury didn't happenn this week, it happened as soon as Charlie got a hold of his career!— FetchDixon
- Why didn't Dubee sound the alarm sooner? Why didn't he inform Amaro that something was wrong and get a face-to-face meeting with Roy and ask the obvious question...."what's wrong". Or is that too insulting? Where does his responsibilty begin and end? I think any responsible pitching coach, e.g., Joe Kerrigan, would not have waited while a "cranky" shoulder became a 6-8 week shutdown. Let's assume it worse case 8 weeks. That's 56 days or 11 starts for Halladay. Using his normal efficiency he wins 7 of those starts. Who is going to step in and do the job? Dubee may have lost us the chance at the division by his inaction.— 1republican
- A coach is highly dependent on a player's input when deciding what steps to take. And there's no way to know if an MRI would have found anything conclusive in the earliest stages of discomfort. When you have a veteran pitcher of Halladay's caliber, you value his input even moreso. To me, it sounds like Roy's crazy competitive nature cost him in this situation.
I wasn't a fan of Dubee, but I've slowly come around on him. I too think he would be snapped up if we were to fire him.— phils_tnj1 - If Dubee had a hunch we should not be where we are.— oldBird
- Mark - as usual, "spot on," as the Brits say. May I add it IS troubling to read there were several scouts (even a reporter!) who saw the radical change in Doc's pitches, but Mr. Dubee didn't see the same things - at least he didn't think they were severe enough to recommend shutting him down. I realize that hindsight is nearly always 20/20, but taking into account what is at stake here, erring on the side of caution would seem to be appropriate. Open for debate is whether it would have lessened the severity of the injury.— dwp66
- warb - get your money back from whomever taught you grammar, spelling, - hell, why you're at it, how about the Doctors who delivered you?— dwp66
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