Will Schenn's promotion hurt Couturier's growth?
The Philadelphia Inquirer Blog - Flyers Report: Broad Street Bull
Will Schenn's promotion hurt Couturier's growth?
Sam Carchidi, Inquirer Staff Writer
Brayden Schenn centered the Flyers' third line on Thursday night against the Capitals. (Yong Kim/Staff Photographer)
Center Brayden Schenn, from all accounts, is going to be a quality NHL player.
But it’s fair to wonder if the Flyers promoted him too soon.
Not because of his ability, mind you. The 20-year-old center appears to be NHL-ready.
But I question the promotion if it means center Sean Couturier is only going to get about 10 minutes of ice time, as he did in Thursday’s 5-2 loss to undefeated Washington.
Schenn, recalled from Adirondack on Wednesday, was inserted onto the third line, between Jakub Voracek and Scott Hartnell.
That moved Couturier down from the third line to the fourth unit, where he centered Max Talbot and Andreas Nodl.
Couturier had been averaging nearly 15 minutes a game and had been one of the Flyers’ most pleasant surprises.
On Thursday, he played 10:09, including only 5:36 in even-strength situations.
Coach Peter Laviolette downplayed the development, attributing it to the fact the Flyers had to kill six power plays, which disrupted the rotation of their lines.
True, but the Flyers killed EIGHT power plays against the Kings last Saturday and Couturier still managed to play 14:13.
Any way you look at it, Couturier’s time will be greatly reduced if he stays on the fourth line. Is that good for the development of a fast-emerging 18-year-old?
Center is Couturier’s natural position, but the Flyers might be better-served putting Couturier _ who scored a goal late in Thursday’s loss _ at wing on the third line.
That might mean Scott Hartnell drops down to the fourth line. Yes, it’s an expensive spot for a $4.2 million winger, but Couturier’s development should be the priority.
Schenn was minus-3 on Thursday, but two of the goals Washington scored while he was on the ice were deflected off Flyers.
“I thought he had a strong game,” Laviolette said. “Sometimes the statistics are not a reflection of somebody’s game.”
You could argue that the Flyers would have been better-suited if they hadn’t recalled Schenn until (if) a top-nine forward was injured. Instead, they rolled the dice by scrambling three of their four lines.
Was it the right choice?
Give us your feedback.
* * *
Defenseman Kimmo Timonen injured his right hand blocking a shot and said he didn’t know if he would play Saturday. More will be known Friday….Schenn's line was minus-7.....Schenn won four of 11 faceoffs...The Flyers have allowed five or more goals in five of their last nine meetings with the Caps; they are 1-3-1 in those games…..James van Riemsdyk had seven shots and Jaromir Jagr had five…..Matt Carle and Andrej Meszaros each blocked five shots….The Flyers host St. Louis on Saturday night.
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Comments (62)
Would Couturier be better suited with 10 minutes a night or playing another full season in juniors? It's a long season, he'll get his ice time. In the interest of keeping him healthy it's probably better to have him play 12-14 minutes/game anyway. Yeah, they bounced the lines around tonight to get Schenn in the lineup and it may have cost them points, but whatever, it's game 6. By the way, congratulations on your promotion Brayden, you get to play with Scott Hartnell! Hope you aren't concerned with your +/-.— sla6yer- One thing Schenn and Richards now have in common: the coach disruptes every line trying to force them into the line up. He doesn't fit right now, and he is less than impressive. Mind boggling how poorly thought out this was. And they did not even run lines in practice: what were they thinking??? What is so disappointing is that the line-up was clicking along very well. Loose Schenn, bring back Rinaldo (we had no energy tonite and threw 0 big hits) and cut Shelley.— dahlster
- Sure didn't seem like the chemistry of the first 5 games was present tonight...was this why?— JosephL
- As the saying goes about a picture...check out this video of Couturier setting up Voracek. http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=127757 Then go try and find one of Schenn doing the same thing in the NHL (good luck). It's mind blowing to think that Couturier was moved down following performances like this one.
— icarus - Reading the comments from Schenn seem more an insight into his personality than anything else. He is chomping at the bit to be up with the team. They saved his locker, they made room for him... yet he seems very arrogant. Very little difference between arrogance and immaturity. Maybe he is very skilled, but it seems that the team needs team players not hot shots wanting the limelight. I like Couturier. Seemed to fit in flawlessly. Is Schenn going to create the same atmosphere that most fans feel was poisonous with Carter?— new flyer fan
- Realizing that writers have to write, papers have papers to sell, and people like you and I have time to waste reading it, there is one thing to remember. It is only 1 game, with 75 or so left....Lavs will figure it out, he's too good not to be up. Courterier is too good not to be up. Done deal, that's why coaches get paid what they do, to take the ingredients and cook us a Cup of something other than liptons or chunky soup.— Bleue
- Schenn has yet to accomplish anything in the NHL. He is a project. He is now a career minus 5 in the NHL, with 2 assists in 10 games. Compare that to Courturier...pretty tough to make a case for Schenn. I have heard for a long time about Schenn being the best player NOT in the the NHL, and he just may have to stay that way. At best, he was irrelevant tonight.— Hexy4GM
- Another Yiri Dopita? He was the "best player not in the NHL", too. I'm with you. Schenn has an awful lot of positive press for a player with no stats to back it up. — icarus
- Hartnell should wear a mask while on the ice for the theft of $4.2M from the team.— BobbyD
- Couturier has played very steady and is 1 of 4 forwards who has played consistently on the PK, very rare for an 18 yr old rookie. Tonight I finally saw the difference between Scheen & Couturier, Scheen is a more formidable physical presence than Couturier, but Couturier has played better in the games I've seen them both play. The Flyers have 4 more games to see how this will shake out, but I wouldn't be comfortable with the inexperience both would bring to the 3rd & 4th line center spot, if both stay on the roster. Max Talbot was signed, I believe to be the 3rd line center, and I feel the Flyers envisioned Scheen starting the season as the 3rd or 4th line center, but his injury & Couturier's play changed all that. Scott Hartnell was just awful tonight, & I just can't see him scoring more than 15 goals this year, especially without Briere as his center. That’s not what the Flyers expected from a $4.2 M winger, with another year left on his contract.— sox12st
- I agree that the development of Couturier should be paramount. He seems so natural. If that means putting a guy stealing ridiculous amounts of money (Hartnell) on the 4th line and/or putting Schenn at wing then so be it.— bleedmidnightgreensection236
- i vote for rinaldo playing in place of nodl. nodl sucks. the whole schenn and couturier thing will play itself out eventually. if they continue to improve (couturier) and start to improve (schenn) then they'll definitely make hartnell that much more expendable (i.e. trade or 4th line duties for this team).— kdub13
- "Hartnell should wear a mask while on the ice for the theft of $4.2M from the team." What's the point? It would just come off the first time he fell anyway.— AreaMan
- Will Shenn promotion hurt Couturier? Yes— justacarpenter
- It's pretty clear....Hartnell and Nodl have no place on this team. We are stuck with Hartnell, so move him to the 4th line and make him place a Rinaldo type game. I'm not sure if we can teach this old dog a new trick, however.— dave1walsh
- Flyers lost, time for this dope and Tim Pistaschio to start questioning the C on Pronger.— spittooncj
- Novel idea trade Hartnell with his 4 million dollar cap hit...— sv1968
- With our team has it is we need to make at least 1 move maybe 2 Hartnel needs to go and Noel too Bring back rinaldo so we have a guy out there hitting hard! Asfor Shelly nice guy but too slow! Waive him as no one will trade for him! The 4.2 Cap relief willbe greart add Sheelys 1.1 andwe have spaceto maek a move come the trade deadline if we need too! 5.3 Million in cap space could sign one of our D-Man to a contract extention— srcdaddy1216
- Uuuuugggghhh!!! Can we let the kid play at least handful of games before you guys make the decision that he is an arrogant, ineffective prima dona. Give the kid a break by all accounts he took his demotion well and played hard for the Phantoms. It was the guy's first game in the NHL in quite some time and I thought he looked good. More physical than I expected and he is really strong on the puck. I think it will only get better with time. It was inevitable that Schenn was gong to be on this roster, they chose to insert him now (against a strong team)there is going to be an adjustment period.
I like Couturier as much as you do. Bottom line its October, its a long season and he's 18. If he continues to prove his worth he will be where he needs to be when the games count the most. The roster is going to undergo change to make room for Couturier over time is my guess and Talbot will end up centering the 4th line with Couturier in the top 9. If you want someone to pick on how about Briere (who's been invisible all season) or Hartnell (who certainly hasn't).— topley97 - "who's been invisible all season"--Really?! All six games of the season? He should be run out of town for him for not showing up all season long. Geez, you guys need to chill out and relax!
— Herdman - Never suggested running Briere out of town. I agree with your notion that everyone needs to relax. I was merely trying to point out it didn't make much sense to tear down a player who has played all of one game in a flyer uniform. BTW Briere has been pretty invisible all year. — topley97
- Briere has 3 points and a +3 in 6 games. Not the best on the team but certainly not the worst. — Herdman
- I think just as Couturier need to be in the nhl to develop, I thin Schenn is the same. A combination of youthful exuberance and veteran wisdom is what is going to win a cup. I think just as it seems every one else, that Hartnell is a waste of space and money. Rinaldo's energy and/or Shelley's leadership and fighting are also needed. Not a $4 million role player...thats all he is now. We have to face the facts that this is a younger faster league. Look at all players 20 years old and up and look at who the players are that make $4 million and up. Hartnell is non of them...— flyersrock08
- One of two things will happen in the very near future...they will either deal Hartnell back to Nashville or Couturier will be heading back to juniors.— beagle29
- Hartnell will not be dealt anywhere he does not want to go. He has a NTC. The best bets would be to move him down or buy out his contract. Both still cost $4.2 million. — Herdman
- No, but a -3 debut will probably hurt.— Billb91
- what should he have done on Hartnell's giveaway? stolen the puck before Hartnell could pass it to the other team in the slot? at least one of the others was an odd deflection. no one blames bryz for those kind of goals so don't blame the kid either.
he should be judged on his level of play which i thought was really good for his first NHL game in a while.
as said earlier writers have to sell papers, you don't have to buy into it. if both (schenn and couterier)develop into really good players aren't we better off? one shouldn't be more important than the other at this point.— topley97 - Is it too late for Hartnell to take skating lessons?
- Schenn will only hurt Couturier if the Flyers keep Shelley and Hartnell. If the lines have to be shuffled to keep those two in, then C will get stuck on a lower line. Didnt these two play together on a line a World Juniors a few years ago? What about Jagr-Giroux-JVR, Simmonds-Briere-Voracek, Schenn-Courturier-Read, and Nodl-Talbot-Rinaldo
— SoCal Flyer - They could have used Rinaldo's energy last night-- not to mention a SOLID HIT. Too many Flyers were pulling up without finishing their checks and Washington stayed in possession. Rinaldo isn't big, but he hits like a wrecking ball- and he can win a fight.— phlnative
- If Couturier stays on the 4th line, the Flyers should send him to Juniors. Keep him on the 3rd line with Schenn and Read. Hartnell goes to the 4th line with Nodl and Talbot.— zeke128
- Hartnell has a no trade clause....I would trade for a bag of pucks right now. Maybe LA trades a prospect for him. Reunited with Richards.
— tholler1 - Hartnell has a no trade clause....I would trade for a bag of pucks right now. Maybe LA trades a prospect for him. Reunited with Richards. (HTML deleted)— tholler1
- Hartnell has a NTC not a NMC which means if the Flyers want to waive and send him to the Phantoms they can. I'm sure if they give him the choice of A)waived and worst team can get you B) no one claims you and go to minors or C) accept a trade to Nashville thats IF they even want him. Im betting he would take C— shanehockey28
- Couts will playing against Gatineau on Oct 29th.— Romus
- I hate blind passes (Hartnell) always seem to bite back!— Gus L.
- Is there any way the Flyers can unload Hartnell and his cap hit? Quite frankly, it might be worthwhile to just cut him outright if it would allow the team to reclaim $4 million in cap space. The guy just can't play.— jjs0101
- Interesting perspective, but the sample size (1 game) is too small. Publish this again if after 10 or 20 games and you see a trend.— awl
Comment removed.- If you think the Flyers have too much scoring, then yes keep Schenn in the AHL and let Rinaldo churn around the ice. Less notable than Couturier's 10 minutes TOI was Mastt Read's 21+ minutes. That's more worth writing about. If Schenn is the real deal and can solidify his 2-way game, then end or story -- he belongs. As long as the Flyers are playing shorthanded so much, Couturier also belongs. I don't think you need a higher degree from the Fred Shero School of Management to Figure that out. If Schenn busts loose, they will find a spot for him on a top-2 line.— Claudio Vernight
- Comment removed.
- u know what? u freaks just make me LOL! WOOT!
who the @$#% is schenn?! who the $@!# is courtier?
oh yeah. this time we gonna win the big one. oh yeah babe.
this time it real. this time i can feel it.
flyer freaks come and flyer freaks go. but one thing will always remain the same. 1976. WOOT!
yep thats rigth! u freaks get all excited dont u? in fact, this happen every year! oh they sign somebody! oh we gonna win the big one now! no freak. ur team aint gonna do NOTHIN! ok?! NOTHING!
same ole flyers. same ole flyers. same ole flyers.
WOOT!
- WOOT! — smacklby
- ok freaks, I'm going to examine the proud excellence that is philly sports. sixers 1983. flyers 1976. iggles 1960. phils with second highest payroll in baseball proudly eliminated in the first round by the team they helped get into the first round. in the final game they were not able to score a single point. this was the DREAM TEAM and ur lover boy cliffy proudly threw away a whopping 4 run lead at home.
and when he walk off the mound, u cheered! WOOT!
oh yeah, now talk to me bout schenn and courtuerier?
say what now?! LOL!!
oh yeah babe. they gonna help us win the big one!
i know it! i just know it!
=)
- WOOT! — smacklby
- Hartnell has been awful, agreed, but he's not going anywhere. He's best with Briere so let's put thme together. They both could use the help. I would think that Read would make that trio work. He could be the new Villie. Let Couturire center Jake and Simmons. I think Couturire will get Jake scoring and Simmons can play with anyone. For Scheen, he need more seasoning...yes even though we only saw him one game. Remember we did see him all pre-season too and most didn't think he was ready then either. Tough for confidence to send him back down, but we're here to win, not worry about confidence.— bboodro
- Couturier does not belong on the 4th line. No place for a #8 draft pick. NO WAY! You might as well send him back to junior then play him there— bboodro
- giv'em time. Shenn will be a very good player. Hartnell stinks, we need to move on...stash him in the AHL...don't we save cap money that way?— jayram
- I also think Couturier has better speed than Schenn. Its either that or Couturier plays his position better or both. I'd say its both.— smacklby
- WOW! Where is my other post? Was there something wrong with my comments? WOW! I really can't believe there was something wrong with my comments, but let me try to repharse! Absolutely, if Couturier is demoted to 4th line minutes, then that will certain stunt his development; without any question. There are two things wrong with it: 1) he has been playing well, and there are other players, like Hartnell and Schenn, who haven't played as well, or at all, and who should have been delegated to 4th line minutes over Couturier. 2) there was no reason mess with the lines, especially before playing the undefeated Capitals. If management wants to mess with the lines, they should do it when the lines aren't working or when playing one of the lower seated teams in the league, like Ottawa. Lastly, Schenn was a minus 3. I did not see but a few minutes of the game (had a tennis engagement), before turning it off in disgust (after the Capitals 4th goal). But, in the few minutes of the game of which I did see, Schenn blew his point coverage on the one goal, and was directly responsible for it.— smacklby
- WOW! Where is my other post? Was there something wrong with my comments? WOW! I really can't believe there was something wrong with my comments, but let me try to repharse! Absolutely, if Couturier is demoted to 4th line minutes, then that will certain stunt his development; without any question. There are two things wrong with it: 1) he has been playing well, and there are other players, like Hartnell and Schenn, who haven't played as well, or at all, and who should have been delegated to 4th line minutes over Couturier. 2) there was no reason mess with the lines, especially before playing the undefeated Capitals. If management wants to mess with the lines, they should do it when the lines aren't working or when playing one of the lower seated teams in the league, like Ottawa. Lastly, Schenn was a minus 3. I did not see but a few minutes of the game (had a tennis engagement), before turning it off in disgust (after the Capitals 4th goal). But, in the few minutes of the game of which I did see, Schenn blew his point coverage on the one goal, and was directly responsible for it.— smacklby
- WOW! Where is my other post? Was there something wrong with my comments? WOW! I really can't believe there was something wrong with my comments, but let me try to repharse! Absolutely, if Couturier is demoted to 4th line minutes, then that will certainly stunt his development; without any question. There are two things wrong with it: 1) he has been playing well, and there are other players, like Hartnell and Schenn, who haven't played as well, or at all, and who should have been delegated to 4th line minutes over Couturier. 2) there was no reason mess with the lines, especially before playing the undefeated Capitals. If management wants to mess with the lines, they should do it when the lines aren't working or when playing one of the lower seated teams in the league, like Ottawa. Lastly, Schenn was a minus 3. I did not see but a few minutes of the game (had a tennis engagement), before turning it off in disgust (after the Capitals 4th goal). But, in the few minutes of the game of which I did see, Schenn blew his point coverage on the one goal, and was directly responsible for it.— smacklby
- I agree Nodl should be replaced. Also I would prefer Walker over Lilja, but I think the cap is partly responsible for the personnel the Flyers bring to the ice right now. Couturier is definitely defensively responsible and a team guy, don't cut his time on the ice if possible.— flyerdommo
- Hey flyerdommo, Nodl has played exceptinoally well on the 4th line. If we are going to cut or move someone, I'd say move Hartnell, even if to the minors. He does not play up to his contract, and he hasn't been playing well. Directly responsible for the 1st or second goal with a blind pass to the middle in the Caps game. His passing is subpar; he's not scoring; and he has become a liability defensively. At his contract cost, he needs to go. (HTML deleted)— smacklby
- Hey flyerdommo, Nodl has played exceptinoally well on the 4th line. If we are going to cut or move someone, I'd say move Hartnell, even if to the minors. He does not play up to his contract, and he hasn't been playing well. Directly responsible for the 1st or second goal with a blind pass to the middle in the Caps game. His passing is subpar; he's not scoring; and he has become a liability defensively. At his contract cost, he needs to go.— smacklby
- Hey flyerdommo, Nodl has played exceptinoally well on the 4th line. If we are going to cut or move someone, I'd say move Hartnell, even if to the minors. He does not play up to his contract, and he hasn't been playing well. Directly responsible for the 1st or second goal with a blind pass to the middle in the Caps game. His passing is subpar; he's not scoring; and he has become a liability defensively. At his contract cost, he needs to go.— smacklby
- Nodl has played exceptionally well on the 4th line. If we are going to cut or move someone, I'd say move Hartnell, even if to the minors. He does not play up to his contract, and he hasn't been playing well. Directly responsible for the 1st or second goal with a blind pass to the middle in the Caps game. His passing is subpar; he's not scoring; and he has become a liability defensively. At his contract cost, he needs to go.— smacklby
- Shulda kept the lines in tact and Schenn on the Phantoms...wake me up in April. Yawn.— JudgeReinhold
- including the preseason...I wanna say that the Flyers are about 1-5 when Schenn plays. And in those games he is a minus 5.— Hexy4GM
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Broad Street Bull is the Inquirer's blog covering the Philadelphia Flyers and the National Hockey League.
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