Who botched things for Ryan Madson?
Madson stuck with a 1-year deal
Who botched things for Ryan Madson?
Rich Hofmann, Daily News Sports Columnist
Ryan Madson will reportedly settle for a 1-year contract with the Reds. (David Maialetti / Staff File Photo)
Nobody will need to hold a benefit for Ryan Madson. If reports are accurate, he is in the process of doing a 1-year, $8.5 million deal with the Cincinnati Reds. He is safely in the 1 percent. Again, no tears.
But how did this happen?
How did he and agent Scott Boras miscalculate the market so badly?
I still would love to know how the whole Phillies thing went down. Reports stated that a 4-year, $44 million deal with Madson was imminent, and then it suddenly wasn’t. The Phillies went instead for Jonathan Papelbon and for $50 million, and Boras was left to talk about what a strong market still existed for Madson and et cetera.
But was there a real offer on the table to Madson from the Phillies, and if there was, why was it pulled back? If Madson and Boras had said yes at some point in the process, would Madson still have been here?
And who miscalculated the dynamics of the marketplace so badly? Was it Boras, squeezing so hard that the Phillies said ouch? Was it Madson, insisting that he was worth more? Or was there never a real offer on the table, and just discussions that ended when it became clear to the Phillies that they could get Papelbon instead?
If the Phillies thing was real, it was a lot of money, and it came from Madson’s current team. It also was from a team that has, in recent seasons, proven itself to be a market trendsetter. The Phillies -- with Raul Ibanez and Ryan Howard, to name just two -- arrived early and with the keys to an armored car full of cash. They guesstimated the market and they acted first and they were willing to deal with the second-guessers who said they overpaid. In both of those cases, Ibanez and Howard, they likely did overpay and still did not care and still will not care as long as you keep buying tickets at the going rate.
So if there was an offer, or something pretty close to an offer, you wonder what it was like when Madson and Boras discussed it, either face-to-face or on the phone.
Did Boras tell him to sign it? Did Madson want to sign it? Did Boras tell him he could get more from somebody else? Did Madson insist that Boras promised all along to get him more?
In other words, who drove this bus over the cliff?
The spin undoubtedly will be that they decided to take the 1-year deal because the market was lousy, and that if Madson pitches well this season, he will be able to cash in next year -- and it might just turn out that way. But when you do the risk-reward calculation, the risk being carried by Madson is enormous. Pitchers have health issues because that is what they do for a living. Closers have consistency issues because that is the nature of the position, it seems. You pitch in a bullpen, and you do that as your life’s work, and you never know.
Now Madson bears all of that risk and Boras goes about his lucrative business and the Phillies go on with Papelbon. And the rest of us wonder if it was the agent or the client who botched this thing so badly.
Comments (145)
I believe Boras was the problem. First, he has a history of "buying" players to sign with him by promising big paydays. Some he delivers. Others he doesn't. In this cae, it's very likely (1)he oversold Madson on the money he could get for him; (2) was using the non-existent "$44 mil offer" (which was nothing more than talking points) from the Phillies as a stalking horse to up the ante with another team that never materialized and; (3) now blames the Phillies in order to save face with his other clients. The guy is a sleazebag in an occupation that is rated just slightly higher than personal injury lawyers, politicians, Bill Conlin and weight loss gurus— 1republican- This one is on Scotty. I like Madson so I hope he doesn't get screwed in the future, but it looks like Boras messed up this one.— pizzzmoe
- Did Joanie really love Chachi?— CharlesShackleford
- read jim 715 below -- he's one of the few Philly fans here who get it, along with freedomfries..man are most of you a bunch of naive wooses ? why the loyalty to Amaro? cause he can win a division title with good starting pitching? he's o for 3 when it counts and the current team is getting older and worse, can't hit, has no depth, balance or bench... and after Hamels leaves (which he will) and Lee and Halladay start showing their age (which at some point they will) Phils will be left with what exactly?: a closer making $12.5 mil/yr and untradeable and a 1st baseman/dh hitting maybe .250 and maybe 20-30 hrs making $25 mil/yr until 2016 and untradeable .. and every other position useless except for maybe a couple of avg outfielders and what else? the rube has destroyed the Phils farm system as they have only one prospect ranked in top 100 (ranked about 74) and really have little else once Halladay and Lee are done— warbiscuit
- warbiscuit - I do agree that the farm is depleted. But it is 2012 and the Mayans say this is the last year for us so I'm going into the season positive about what we have.
Regarding the farm, some of the pitchers (Trevor May being the one that comes to mind most) break that top 100 prospect list pretty regularly. The Phillies actually have some pretty good young pitchers. Their infield prospects are currently nonexistent outside of Galvis. It's not unreasonable to expect some trades to replenish the farm. I also think the current outfield is little better than average. Victorino and Pence aren't too shabby. I still feel Vic can step his game up a notch. I also like Mayberry's chances of contributing this year.
I don't like a lot of the contracts either. But those are done deals. Got to enjoy what we have. There are many ways to completely reshape a team in baseball so I don't consider anything cast in stone. If they fall short again this year I think we'll see a lot of moves.
I've also said it before: I'd get some youth in there even if they're not top 100 prospect type guys. Let Kratz be the backup catcher. Bring another young guy up or trade for an up-and-comer for the bench. I'm not a big fan of the old guys being backed up by other old guys. But change will occur if the experiment fails. If it succeeds, there will be many good story lines.— s - It seems to me that we are not appreciating Papelbon enough here. I work with a bunch of Yankees fans in North Jersey and they love the fact that he's out of their division. He's a four time All Star in the prime of his career. If any of the young dudes are able to step into the 6-8th innings, we'll be fine. Paps is a bulldog who hates to lose. Mad Dog was solid in his time here but we really need to move on from this. What's done is done. Bring on Spring Training.— athousandgods
- I'll go with RAJ. If he said there was no deal on the table, then that's the story. Bora-ss needs to keep his creds and will say anything to not look bad. This is one agent who gives a bad exit relationship to many players and teams.— LuckyNucky
- Apparently only comments praising our local sports teams and their owners will get posted on this website now. In that spirit, I'm sure the two draft picks the Phillies will receive will turn out to be so amazing that people will forget Ryan Madson. Also, look for Jim Thome to slug 30 home runs and be voted Comeback Player of the Year. Also, look for our local sportswriters to provide us with wonderfully insightful columns all season long.— Freedom Fries
- Whose greed caused the deal to crumble Madson's or Boras's?The market is out of whack when someone of Madson's caliber, who is well above average, but still has never been an all-star, can nearly pull off an 11 million dollars per year, long-term deal.I wish him the best and will follow his performance withthe Reds in 2012 closely. He can still be a big winner financially in 2013 and beyond. This year just wasn't the right time. The best place fo Madson to make some big bucks was Philadelphia. If at the outset of negotiations, Madson had a more contract modest goal in mind such as 38 to 39 million per four years (a not-to-shabby 9.5 to 9.75 million per year)the Phillies wouldn't hav checked out Papelbn's availability and he'd still b e the Phillies Closer. (HTML deleted)— Dennis O.
- Most pro athlete salaries are out of whack. For me, a guy's salary is only a factor if it prevents other moves from being made.
But your point about "never been an all-star" is a good one when you compare to Papelbon who, at the same age is a 4 time all-star, has more than 4 times as many saves as Madson, has won several reliever of the year awards, has (like Madson) been on a World Series winning team, and who reached 200 saves in the fewest appearances ever (beating the previous record of some loser named Mariano Rivera).
Contracts are mostly based on past history. Is it even close between the two? Madson may indeed have a better future and Papelbon may have no more great years but you play the odds of past history.
— s - Whose greed caused the deal to crumble Madson's or Boras's?
The market is out of whack when someone of Madson's caliber, who is well above average, but still has never been an all-star, can nearly pull off an 11 million dollars per year, long-term deal.
I wish him the best and will follow his performance withthe Reds in 2012 closely. He can still be a big winner financially in 2013 and beyond. This year just wasn't the right time. The best place fo Madson to make some big bucks was Philadelphia. If at the outset of negotiations, Madson had a more contract modest goal in mind such as 38 to 39 million per four years (a not-to-shabby 9.5 to 9.75 million per year)the Phillies wouldn't hav checked out Papelbn's availability and he'd still b e the Phillies Closer.— Dennis O. - you are all forgetting one thing,....the Phils do NOT deal with scott boras,....that offer was just that,....an offer throwing a bone to a kid that gave you some good years of service,...period— SyddBarrett
- You just never had a good feeling with Madson that the game was firmly under control. He had a good record last year, but I just don't see him in a category as Papelbon. Obviously every other team in the league agreed with me. There was a reported $44 mil offer, in the meantime the Phillies closed on Papelbon whom it appears they would rather have. The offer for his services then dropped which seems fairly clear.— Larry Byrd
- I guess we need Bob Woodward to get someone to talk.— Andy in E-town
- I guess we need Bob Woodward to get someone to talk.— Andy in E-town
- MADSON WILL HAVE A MEDIOCRE SEASON WITH THE REDS AND THE PHILLIES WILL PICK HIM UP NEXT OFFSEASON.....YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!!!!!— Anything_Philly_is4me
- Only Philly fans will compare two guys and say the one with the better stats is the lesser of the two.— SFPhillyphan
- I don't understand the negative reactions to the article. It is an interesting question, how did Madson end up with such a "bad" deal? And there is something intriguing about the possibility that his agent screwed this up.— PhillyfaninChicago
- This will be the bridge too far for Amaro, who I like quite a bit. But Papelbon is a four-square loser.— andrewfrombrooklyn
- bill1chair would have had the answer.— dmn
- Reds got a real good one. Im sorry to loose Madson. Maybe players wont be so quick to work with Boras. I think there are teams wary of dealing with him. Saying that Madson does not have closer stuff is just wrong. A mid 90 fastball that may look like a 99 MPH when hitters have to keep changeup in back of their heads. I hope Ryan does well with Reds. They have a lot of very good young talent like Stubbs, Votto, Bruce etc. The Reds starters will have to do better. Even their they have some good young arms.— Don w
- I think you had two big egos in play here - RAJ and Boras. It seems to me Amaro put on the table a slam-dunk offer, sure to be market-setting for a closer. Then Boras starts calling other GMs, Amaro finds out about it, checks on what it takes to sign Papelbon and then takes great satisfaction in sticking it to Boras.
It's too bad for Madson, who's a good guy who I would've like to see stay here. Sure, he might have a great 2012 and parlay that into a bigger contract, but he's taking a big risk...not his slimeball agent.— Polecat_39 - really, really, REALLY poor journalism on this one. how can a supposed pro ask '...how did this happen?' then not do some intelligent digging to provide the answer. the canons of the profession seem to've been dumped in the schuylkill here.— bubba church & granny hamner
- Seems to me MLB is taking a stand against Boras. Fielder won't get a 7 year deal either. Owners are pushing back against Boras's tactics and not falling for whatever he is pushing. The Werth deal was enough to scare anyone away :)— pattymac3
- http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-03/sports/29377452_1_ryan-madson-rich-dubee-phillies
"There's no question that we think that Ryan is a great fit for us, but Ryan has not proven to us he can be a closer in the major leagues," Amaro said. "Can that happen? That's possible. Can we necessarily rely on him? I don't think so."
Manager Charlie Manuel ultimately confirmed that uneasiness by saying on Tuesday that Jose Contreras was his "first choice" to be the closer in Lidge's absence.
"Ryan Madson is Ryan Madson," Dubee said. "What did he do, take a crash course in how to close or something?"
Dubee also said he thinks Madson is a different pitcher when the inning changes from the eighth to the ninth.
"The game speeds up on him, sometimes," Dubee said. "There's a little anxiety in there. The ninth inning is a little different than the eighth. There have been a lot of solid eighth-inning guys that just haven't been able to pitch the ninth, then one day they learn how to do it."
— EL Zorro - Phils now have only 1 prospect ranked in top 100 in country --ranked anout 74th --that's how much clueless rube has destroyed the future and he's won how many championships with all his idiotic moves over 3 1/2 yrs? that's zero as in nada --same as Andy Reid -- and yet all you naive followers think that he's doing a smart job wasting $170 million and destroying the Phils future while "building" a team that can't hit, has no depth, balance, bench, etc— warbiscuit
- You want a great farm system? Lose 90 games for 20 years in a row and your wish will be granted. Perhaps invest millions in Latino prospects like the Mets did. — mwcnabb
- Ryan Madson deal: Agent, GM at odds
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7451360/ryan-madson-agent-scott-boras-ruben-amaro-jr-philadelphia-phillies-differ-details
NL East position rankings
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/19843/nl-east-showdown
— EL Zorro - Looks like with these lousy deals Boras is agreeing to, his stock around the league is going to take a hit.
Hey Scott, its just part of the economy we're in.
LOL— Sackbutt - It seems our writers don't have sources or players, coaches, or front office people that they can go to for information. I wonder why that is? Journalism in this country is in a dangerous decline. Journalist have forgotten who they serve.— Ron
- SilliBilli
The guy throws in the high 90s with that changeup. So, where do you see lack of closer stuff? His biggest problem until last year was mindset. He finally discovered that mindset. I got news for you, he is going to be better than Palpolbon this year. There is a reason why the Redsox let him walk, which is that he isn't as good as he once was.— Hemingway - What can you buy for $11 million in one year, that you cannot buy with $8 million? Not much. I don't feel sorry for Madson or Boras.— Roman529
- babybiscuit,rube has had the Phillies in the playoffs and the Series and with the best team record ever over the last three years. Name another GM who has done all that. Idiots like you want them to win the series every year, but it doesn't happen. Would like to see him build up the farm system more, but that woud require maybe missing the playoffs a year or two. Then you'd be the first to jump on himn for ruining the team. Get a clue before you write.— mike l
- papelbon padded his stats with 3 run saves against likes of KC -- nobody who's followed Yanks-Redsox last few yrs ever turned away when Papelbon enters close game against decent team- Madson will be infinitely better than Papelbon over next 4 yrs --expect to see lots of blown saves in Philly for all that money while Madson helps Reds in post-season ..rube has never made an intelligent free agent signing or contract extension in 3 1/2, other than the Lee deal in which he still overspent and was at the begging of CLiff's wife— warbiscuit
- 2011, against the top two teams in his division (Rays and Yankees): 14 games, 16.1 IP, 8H, 3R, 1.61 ERA.
One other subtle note in those stats: Pap always pitches more innings than game appearances over a year. Always. So he goes more than one here and there. Madson hasn't done that since 2008.— s - And Madson padded his stats with 3-run saves against the Pirates. Every closer pads their stats against inferior teams. — mwcnabb
- clear to everyone in media that Boras is telling the truth here -- Ruben pulled $44 mill. deal cause he decided to go with 'bigger name 'Papelbon for "just" another $6 mil --unfortuantley the clueles rube always just looks at past stats and is utterly incapable of projecting future performance -- Madson is much better fit for Phis ballpark, had breakthrough season and is only getting better, while Papelbon beat up on weal teams like Orioles (except when it counted in last game) and has never been dependable against likes of Yanks -- Madon will get last laugh as everyone does who ever deal with clues rube..not only does rube have no class but he's clueless and imcompetent— warbiscuit
- Sounds like the Phillies miscalculated the market; appears they overpaid terribly for Papelbon.— JBinPA
- amazing how idiotic every aspect of this "closer switch" was by the incrediby inept clueless rube --not only do the Phils spend an extra $42 million for a closer who was not as good as Madson last year and is getting worse while Madson is only getting better, and is a much poorer fit for Phils ballpark (Papelbon has only one pitch - a fastball that is often driven for deep flyballs, while Madson induces lots of dps wiht his changeup) -- but the Phls also lose their 1st round pick for this "privilege" --FIRE ruben amaro now -he is infinitely more incompetent than anyone associated wiht any of the other Phila. teams --he has the highest budget in the league, yet has the oldest team with a very bleak future, as it cant hit, has no depth or balance or bench, and he has destroyed what had been one of the best farm systems in the process and has won as g.m absolutely positivley nothing with all his idiotic dealing and long term contract extensions....— warbiscuit
- Every team that has a high budget has older players. Free agents are older players. Madson nearly blew Game 4 of the NLDS and was terrible in the NLCS in 2010.
— mwcnabb - Any time Scott Boras outwits himself, it's a good thing. He's worse than Drew Rosenhaus, but you hear more about Rosenhaus because of the Eagles' spin machine.In the past, Papelbon has been the better closer. Perhaps the Phillies felt the need to change the mix, but Papelbon better stay healthy. The Reds slipped last year, but they have a good, proven GM in Walt Jocketty and I can see them bouncing back this year.— 76erfn
- Hardballtalk just posted something about this. Boras said they told Amaro they would take the 4 yr-$44mil, but Amaro wanted someone with more experience. hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/11/scott-boras-and-ruben-amaro-jr-disagree-about-why-ryan-madson-didnt-re-sign-with-phillies/ (HTML deleted)— troke
- Paplebon is on the downside of his career? He is 31 - the same as Madson. He had a 2.94 ERA last year in the American League... with a high k/9in ratio.
I like Ryan - but he hired Boras. And Borass likes to wait out the market, not sign early in the process. I am sure the 4 year/$44 M offer was on the table, and Borass said we'll get back to you. RAJ doesn't wait and pulled the trigger for Paplebon. Sorry Scott, you snooze you lose!— dankil13 - Boras and Madson negotiated a fair deal with the Phillies the last time. — jtj06
Comment removed.- @sevillano: It's guarantee money, and it's a great deal more than $11M. Anyway, it seemed that the Angels were a perfect fit but the owner there hates Boras and will not sign any of his clients. He must have cooties.— brio
- The Reds are clear winners in this no risk(years)for the team one year deal considering the year Madson just had. With more than a month left of free agent negotiations it's interesting he signed it.— escapedcamden4monterey
- Boras stalling tactic did not work this time. He plays one team against another to get his client the best contract. Phillies moved on and signed Papelbon.— zeke128
- Nuts, Madson turns down Arbitration to sign a one-year deal with the Reds. He would have gotten much more in arbitration. Reds are laughing all the way to the bank. Borass strikes out again!— jpelle36
- only one thing matters: do you win the ws. 102 wins? mazel tov! 5 straight years in the playoffs? your momma must be so proud. except...since '08 it's been a step backwards each successive year. maybe paying stupidly excessive sums on too-long contracts to guys getting older (and more injury-prone) gets you into heaven, but it don't win the big kahuna.— bubba church & granny hamner
- Rich Hofmann is a good writer, but I do not read a newspaper to read questions. the readership is looking for answers, and this is a column devoid of information. They must be desperate to fill space down there to print this column. A good reporter would have some idea of the answers and share them with the readers.— rtronce
a Lazy article...— Kevinmac- So I guess $8.5 million is chicken feed compared to $11.00 million?— sevillano
- Maybe he rejected the Phils offer because of his wife. She said she hated the fans a couple years back. Anyway, who cares? Any baseball fan knows Boras is a snake so I'm happy he took a little hit to his rep around the league. Even at the expense of Madson, it's still worth it to see. Plus hopefully his big mouthed wife will now shut-up and have to shop at Walmart because they handle the poor who only make 8.5 per year. Poor baby.— phillyjeffsr
- what a lousy article!— amblereagles
- Live by the sword die by the sword! You hire Boras you might get overpaid (Werth)or screwed (madson).— ldt6143
- Boras = Ratzenhaus. They wanted them to show them the money...instead they got shown the door.
DJax...take heed of this.— tpizza - If the reports are correct, Boris missed out on two fronts. 1st, had he accepted abritration, the Phillies would have owed Madsen probably $11 million or so on the same one year deal. Instead, its a one year deal for less. He had a 4 year deal for $44 million on the table, but I'm sure Boris kept "nickel and diming" RAJ until it was time for Monty and RAJ to move away from Boris...AGAIN. Boris clients do not make their own decisions...its about setting the market...and getting the Max commissions. Werth is avery weathly man, but not as happy. Madsen was a Philly staple and could have remained as such. But, Boris clients are not loyal. Madsen is in a good place in Cincinnati. He has lost his friends and team mates. Rollins understood this. Sorry to loose Madsen/Werth, but we know Boris clients don't stay in Philly/LA Dodgers/Angels. Dom Brown is a Boris client...PS....move him.— drhoffman
- I'm going to guess that Boras got out word that Madson was close to ready to accept the 4/$44 million offer from the Phils and that Papelbon's agent approached the Phils with word that Papelbon could be had for a similar offer. I don't think the Madson offer was pure 'blue sky' and there was no reason the offer would have been withdrawn. Amaro's explanations have not been satisfactory so that's why I suspect the scenario I've painted. Phillies probably originally assumed Papelbon was headed back to the Bosox.— Claudio Vernight
- If Madson retains a new agent we'll know where most of the blame goes.
I'm a huge Madson fan and he has great stuff but the reality is he's closed only a fraction of what Papelbon has. El Zorro gave you the stats. Kicking the chair and landing on the DL for 2 months in 2010 didn't help his cause. Then last year he had a period where he was mysteriously unable to pitch on a third day. In other words, as much as I like him and as good as we've seen him look great, he didn't exactly prove he's day-in day-out closer for the next 4 years. Don't forget he also gave up the game/series winning HR against SF in 2010. If he has a good year he'll make out financially next year.— s - The real question is, what was Amaro doing signing Papelbon for $50 million? Amaro is clearly out to lunch and has no sense of the market value of the players he is negotiating with- see Moyer, Ibanez, Howard, Blanton. It amazes me that they let the guy run around spending like a drunken sailor with no rhyme or reason.— jtj06
- lots of questions in the article, but not the most important one. did anyone think to ask RAJ if he had any questions about his medical charts ? or if how much he's been abused, i mean used, over the last few years is a concern ? i doubt it. these reporters have great command over the english language but have no clue about the intricacies of sports.— UnaBlogger
- Clearly, Scott Boras was behind the wheel. Madson by all accounts is a super nice guy and this was his first foray into free agency. No way was he doing all the analyzing and making all the decisions. My guess: Boras overestimated how badly we wanted Madson back and had no clue Amaro was simultaneously talking to Papelbon. Then, something snapped in the discussions with Boras. And we signed Papelbon. I think the jury is way out on whether we paid too much for Papelbon. If he gives us 3-4 years as a top, say, three closer in the NL, probably not. With our starting pitchers and so-so offense (at least at times) we will be ahead in many close games. You don't trust that to Octavio Dotel or Bobby Jenks. You just don't.— eman
- yes, the diff in $ between Papelbon and Madsons failed deal is inconsequential. looking more and more like the Nats might be only team in position to spend big $ on Prince, which would be more bad news for Boras, but bad news for Phils fans too.
how come no reporter can get the goods on the failed madson deal? did rube make everyone in the franchise sign a secrecy document?— jim715 - ..and if Madson gets lumped up this year; he will be bottom of the barrel for sure— snwbrdrjeff
- There is only one way to know if Amaro guessed right. See who is on top when the season ends. My guess? Madson won't do as well with Cincy as he did with the Phillies and Papelbon loves the winner's circle and is still at the top of his game. As far as Howard and Ibanez--which team had the best record in baseball the last two years. Do you know where they would have been without the 200 RBIs those two produced this past season...or was it only 199? Amaro is right until he is proven wrong.— gotedge
- too many questions and no answers. Madson might have made more in arbitration, but Boras coudnt have both his closers do that and go back to being set up men. That being said, this is only botched if Madson fails this year. When i think of botched, i think of trading Cliff Lee, 5 x 25 for Howard, 3 x 8 for Blanton, 3rd years for Ibanez and Polanco, a 2nd year for Moyer, 3 years for Lidge, and i'll probably be saying in 2014/15, 4 x 12.5 for Papelbon, or Gio and Gavin for Freddy.— jim715
- He's probably gotta a questionable medical report based on how Cholly runs relievers into the ground. Due for a breakdown, thus buyer's were wary.— UnaBlogger
- It was obviously RAJ who misread the market. It's not the first time.— Jeff Dowder
- The story from Boras's side is that RAJ put the offer on the table but said Montgomery had to sign off on it. Montgomery stayed silent and then they got Papelbon.
It's hard to believe there was ever an offer on the table that needed approval from the higher ups because in these cases the higher ups have already told you what their limit is. If Boras believed that, he's a fool.
My guess is that RAJ is getting pats on the back from every other baseball executive for screwing Boras. He's really the first one I can remember doing that.— erformc1 - The market is still there. The owners are blackballing any Boras clients. He's finished.— RAS
Wouldn't Madson made more than that by excepting arbitration????????????— KINGOFZED- Its my bet that Boros screwed up. Boros' ego is such that he advises his clients that there is always a better deal, but i think that Amaro snookered Boros this time. Papelbon was the right move. Madson is very good but still unproven as a closer.— FrankJr
- Madson is NOT a closer, he does not have closer stuff. IF he did, he would've gotten a closer contract, not this 1 year incentive based deal. The only botching going on here is that people think Madson is going to be this great closer. He is NOT. He is a quality bullpen arm with a great changeup. That is all.— SilliBilli
- IMO, his agent miscalculated the his worth on the open market. NO ONE in MLB besides the Reds made this guy an offer. No one. So it should be said that MLB teams don't think much of him, or didn't think he was worth the asking price. Boras never built demand for him. And that's his job, to create demand for his client. The money takes care of itself in the end.— beegal99
- @Shaggy: I hear ya, but Hofman has access beyond the everyday fan's means and should use that advantage to write something informative rather than speculative. It's just a plain lazy effort, one which you or I could pound out, one finger at-a-time, in about 10 minutes, without so much as a single contact, beyond espn.go.com. We deserve more than a missive equal to the effort from some kid's mom's basement, I think.
- laphroaig - Since you posted this twice I'll respond. What makes it obvious to you that Papelbon is on the decline? You toss away the Halladay and Victorino deals as meaningless - Halladay is a Cy Young winner and has been the best pitcher in baseball during his contract here. Victorino was a legit MVP candidate for 5 months last year. So getting those two on cheap deals is not nothing. Anyway, be as negative as you want, and you can certainly debate the merit of giving ANY relief pitcher a deal like this, but the reason the fans generally like Amaro is he addresses the needs we see, he does it with splashy moves, and above all, the team is winning!— Phils Phan 28
- I count 13 question marks in this piece. It doesn't tell me anything. Please change out of your pajamas and go find out the answers to these questions!— flyrfan17
- To the other poster, Madson cannot still accept an arbitration offer from the Phillies, since he rejected their arbitration offer a month ago. He can't change his mind to accept it now.— laser5
- There is no mystery here. Boras severely overvalued his client, and then played his usual game to manipulate the teams that were interested. His machinations are well known. He puts the general outlines of a contract on the table. The other party, in this case the Phillies, comes in with a lower offer. Then Boras goes to another team, and says "we have an offer of 44 milion for 4 years, can you top that?" Then, he leaks to the press that he is discussing 44 million for 4 years with the Phillies, which is the original proposal Boras made, not the one that Amaro countered with. Then Boras tells Amaro that he is discussing Madson with two other teams, who appear to be willing to match the Phillies counteroffer. Ruben, of course, knowing Boras, and knowing what other GMs are really thinking and that no one else would match his offer, which is an overpay anyway, says, "I can't play these kinds of games, I need to lock down a closer now and not be played this way", so he breaks off negotiations with Boras and goes and gets Pap. THERE NEVER WAS AN OFFER OF 44 MILLION FOR 4 YEARS! Get it? Madson will be screwed for life (relatively speaking) if he gets hurt, or has a lousy year. He should fire Boras immediately.— laser5
- Madson could have had 9 to 10 million in arbitration. In fact he still could. Why take a lesser deal?— sjkolman
- What I don't understand is the lack of a market for Madson.— 4thand10
- I don't see how Madson botched anything? he is making 8 mil for one year vs 4 mil he was looking to get for multiple years...if he pitches good and I think he will (I bet he has a better year than Papelbon) he will be able to get an even better contract....— mbutley
- 4 years, $44 million is $4 million a year? — SFPhillyphan
- Attention "Dontlikeneocons" - that post of yours is beyond idiotic.— johnnykay
- Call me crazy but 8.5 million for a one year audition is not that bad...........once he proves he can do it again consistently the big payday will come...— softballdude
- It makes you wonder if the Phillies could have came back to him and signed him for much cheaper than Palpalbon. Madson has proven to be a great reliever, and he finally showed that he could close last year. If Pap was the same pitcher he once was, why would the Redsox, a team with bottomless pockets, have let him walk? The Phillies should have had a little patience on this one, and they might have ended up with a much cheaper and possibly better option.— Hemingway
- Boras' miscalculation reminds me of the major miscalculation this country makes every time it elects a Republican.— eldiablodelsol2009
- Boras' miscalculation reminds me of the major miscalculation this country makes every time it elects a Republican.— eldiablodelsol2009
- yeah, hows your boy doin' down there in DC ? — dmn
- I am amazed at anyone who could possibly blame the Phillies. Many baseball sources indicated that the reported 4 year, $44 million dollar offer was accurate. Logic would be that Boras told Madson that he could get the Phils to up their offer and he would use the offer to negotiate with other teams. In the meantime, Amaro kicked the tires on Paplebon and he agreed to the Phils offer without hesitation. It cost the Phils an extra $6 million dollars over four years to get a better closer with a longer track record. Did Boras forget that Madson had ONE successful year as a closer? ONE. He had very mixed results prior to last year in that role. Amaro hit a home run with this one. The Phils were more than fair in their offer and Boras literally cost Madson $35.5 million in guaranteed money. Madson, unforunately, was a victim of his agent's greed.— syddan26
- WE NEED BATS!— phillynupe4
- Sam Crow ... and what if Madson blows out his arm this year?— lonestar2000
- That would be bad for him, but you're assuming there was a multi-year offer on the table for him from the Phillies for $40M. I don't believe there ever was because he's still unproven as a closer. Granted, he could have made the same $ or higher in arbitration with the Phils but he would have to go back to being a set-up guy. In this situation he wins because he's getting a chance to close, and Boras wins because he got him a contract and will be representing him again next year for a bigger payday. The Phillies are the losers because they overpayed for Papelbon and lost Madson.
— Sam Crow - my question is: who botched it for the phillies? because the reds are getting a better pitcher than papelbon for a fraction of the price and years.— Ryan
- Boras is a clown. Combine that with the fact that Madson is not a proven closer over a great stretch of time and here you are, a one year deal. LOL. His wife thought she hated Philly, wait till they get to Cincy.— LennyFromPhilly
- I am sorry to see Ryan Madson, a nice guy who developed into a very good closer, not get the multi-year deal he no doubt wanted and probably deserved. If I were Ryan Madson, I would be looking for a new agent.— Dave Clemens
- Arrgghhh! This is horribly bad writing!
"...and et cetera."? Et is the Latin word for 'and". Et cetera, or more commonly etc., is Latin for the phrase "and so forth", or "and so on". Ergo [another Latin word! It means "therefore."], writing "...and et cetera." translates to "...and and so on."
Worse is the garbled next to last paragraph. In particular, these two sentences: "Pitchers have health issues because that is what they do for a living. Closers have consistency issues because that is the nature of the position, it seems."
Apparently pitchers have health issues for a living? Closers have consistancy issues because they are closers...it seems?
Apparently Philly sportswriters have issues writing clearly when they don't write about JoePa and Sandusky! Or could it be those pent up, unpublished articles on "Chester the Molester" Conlin that management won't permit?
— ngfs66 - Quixote-STFU— SJDevilBoy
- Doubt whether it's true the Phillies ever put a top shelf deal on the table for Madson, the way they work lately is, they always get their man. They just don't see Madson as a lockdown closer. Instead they wanted the very best closer on the market they could get, and if the price was only a couple of million a year over the going rate, so what? The past two years they went after the very best starters on the market, and they don't seem interested in second best. Are we really in Philadelphia, Toto?— tom c.
- Botched? This is what Boras wanted, if he wasn't going to get 4 for 40 million Boras would want him to pull in a decent one year deal so he can go back on the market when there aren't as many relievers available. I am sure there were 3-4 year deals for 7-8 million but Boras wanted to make sure he gets the biggest commission possible rather than ensuring his client's future.— ConverseB24
Isn't there enough misery in the world these days? I wonder if the people that post all negative all the time do so because they are just miserable human beings with no life to live and nothing good in their lives. If everything is SO SO wrong why bother at all? It is not that we can't complain from time to time ,but every post gets tired real fast. But I guess that is why you do it, to wear on everyone else. What do you folks do when you are not on line? Kick the dog? Rat on your co-workers? Live at home and leech off Mom and Dad? You have every right to say what you want BUT WHY? I just don't get it. If I ever got that bad I hope someone would put me out of my misery.— DUDESKINS- Rich, your a terrible report. This is easy. The Phillies and Boras were having discussions. We all know RAJ requires everything to be tight lipped or he backs away from a deal. They said exactly that during the Lee talks. Am sure the frame work of a deal was being discussed, Boras the slim he is leaked out the details..4 for $44mil to try and set the market and use it to pry more money out of the Phillies. RAJ walked away from the talks since Boras opened his big fat mouth and went and got a deal done with Paps...btw which you didn't hear about until after the deal happened. Thus leaving RM stuck without a deal. Now send me your check for doing your work for you.— Bleedsgreen
- Comment removed.
- Lot of if there was, if they did, etc. Tell ya what, I'll buy your paper if you report the news. Conlin may be a bad person but at least he dug in, got the story, then reported it.— jimmymack
- Comment removed.
- It was Madson's decision whether to sign or not. Simple as that.— soybot
- Right on, chiefohara. Clowns like this writer are nothing more than gossip columnists. they actually dont find us out anything we don't know, so they just resort to speculation, rumours, gossip, laughing at the managers accent and good nature, etc. Who botched it is easy enough, Madsen and Boreass.— spittooncj
- If I make $250,000/yr the next 34 years I will match Madson's earnings for the next 9 months. Hard for me to shed a tear. Thought a little perspective might be in order.— bmayer1865
- The blame for this falls squarely on Madson. Sure Boras is scum who only cares about the highest amount, but since Madson hired him it is obvious that that is all Madson cared about too. Boras is only an extension of who employs him. I don't begrudge either since they were only doing what was best for the parties involved, but this one blew up in their faces..— superturtle
- The Phillies were not that high on Madson as some people think, and that includes the manager and pitching coach, who as you might recall say, "did Madson all of a sudden took a course on how to close? when asked early last year why he chose Contreras to close instead of Mad Dog when Lidge was hurt. And apparently the other teams that needed closer weren't too intrigue by his one year as closer. I don't think there was a substantial offer from the Phillies. It looks RAJ wanted Papelbon from the get go. Boras did what he always does, and does better than most agents, trying to get the maximum for his clients. Madson, apparently wasn't perceived as a top-notch closer. After all, he only has 52 saves against 26 blown saves. Papelbon 217 career saves 29 blown saves.— EL Zorro
- Ruben keeps over paying and he still has three former major league GM's in the front office advising him. His $125 million first baseman with declining stats starts the season on the DL and then he pays $50 million for a closer who had a higher ERA, fewer wins, more losses the last two years and fewer saves last year than Ryan Madson did. Should be interesting this coming season to track Papelbon and Madson all season long to see if Ruben knows what he is doing.— Dull
- From here it looks to me like both sides misjudged the market.
Boras thought Madson was worth the long term big dollar contract and was proven wrong.
Amaro thought Papelbon was a better option at that price and length and was also wrong. The moves and signings made by other teams/closers/agents have proven that both sides failed to understand the current market for a closer of Madson's standing.
As was pointed out, Madson now faces significant risk, but it is a risk he was obviously willing to take or he would have chosen a different agent.
Hopefully the consequences of the miscalculations will be minimal for both sides.— andyd - Hard to say Amaro is wrong before Papelbon ever throws a pitch. Only time will tell the answer to that question. — rtronce
- Phillies management was probably mixed on 4yr/$44m and then when another GM called Amaro saying that Boras was still shopping Madson with $44m in hand, the Phillies simply felt used.— JoeC.
- I don't think the Phils offered him 4 years for 44 mil. That was probably floated by Boras. Madson for 4 years at 8.5 per would have been fair.— mikemaddog
- Rich, this is indeed a head-scratcher. Madson established himself as one of the best closers in baseball last year. He should've commanded a multiyear-megamillion dollar deal.
Congrats to the Reds on getting a steal. In fact, if they were able to get away with only paying him $8.5 mill, I'm surprised they didn't make it a 3 year $25.5 mill deal.— nmlawyer - I hope Madson fires his agent. Boras is the one to blame here. Hope Ryan has the last laugh because he is a classy guy. I also hope he becomes a classy Richer Guy— cdm48
- Who botched it for Ryan Madsen. Well, that's an easy one. His agent and himself.
On the other hand, it might lead to a better longer term deal.
For Ed Gein: Contracts are ALWAYS based on past performance--along with the suspicion it might continue. That's what is so horrid about the Laynce Nix contract--Little worthwhile past performance, no reasonable suspicion of anything worthwhile in the future!
For neocon--Another ex-Phillie with a loser organization for better money!— BEMiller - Comment removed.
- I have to disagree with you both-- this is a blog post, not an article, written in the immediate aftermath of the Madson signing.
I agree it would be nice to know those negotiation details, but we rarely see even the most 'plugged-in' reporters get that info.— Shaggy - the reds are probably getting a steal here.— PYW
- Time to stop calling Scott Boras a genius. I haven't done the research, but I'm guessing if you checked history, his tactics hurt his clients as often as help them.— nydb
- Ryan will want to jump off a cliff after living in the Cincy area for 1/2 hour. The guy deserves a much better deal than what he is getting with the Reds, but it is nice to see Boras getting screwed.— kelprod2
- I'd say Ruben Amaro botched it. He signed Pappelbon. How amny successful years did Madson have as a closer- one. How many bad years did he have-none. He should have been given the job again in 2012. Good luck Ryan Madson. Pappelbon better not mess up.— rolenfan
- Have you forgotten that every time prior to this past season Madson botched the closer role when it was handed to him? I believe, before last season, he blew 6 of his last 10 chances. I mean c'mon that was the reason they didn't even give Madson the role at the beginning of the last season. — SFPhillyphan
- Even after the Phillies deal went south, there were still at least three other deep-pocketed clubs looking for relievers, including the Boston Red Sox. None of them want to deal with Boras. And with Madson having just one year under his belt as a closer, Boras came on too strong and asked for too much. So, Madson gets the chance to prove himself in Cincy this season and if he's successful, he'll get another shot at a long-term deal in 2013.— tomfox
- What's botched? Guy signs in the midwest baseball team as a #1 closer. He'll do well there and will sign a huge extension next year. Everybody wins except the Phillies.— Sam Crow
- How about Amaro being the one that botched the situation. Grossly overpaying in years and dollars for the marginal value a reliever provides. Why set the reliever market, there was more of a supply then a demand for late inning relievers the papelbon contract was atrocious and once again the Phillies will be paying for past performance. Tampa Bay has had it figured out for years, you don't even need a defined closer just use your best reliever in the highest leverage situation.— Ed Gein
- Marginal value? Yeah... tell that to the Giants, Yankees, Phillies, Red Sox (ahem) all of whom would not have won their World Series without Wilson, Rivera, Lidge and Papelbon. — Jerome99RIP
- You are assuming some Jason Motte or JC Romero or whomever couldn't have stepped up and gotten a couple of outs. The Phillies made it to the World Series without a closer in 2009 and lack of a closer didn't cost them the title. — jtj06
- A lack of closer didn't cost the Phillies the title in 2009? Ha! I guess you forgot Brad Lidge imploding in Game 4 and Rivera saving Game 4 & Game 2 for the Yankees. Closers are extremely important and there's loads of empirical evidence to support that. If some of you want to play seamhead contrarian and contend otherwise, that's fine. — Jerome99RIP
- It's not a hard question to answer. Greed is what happened here. Lets assume the phillies offer was 4yr for 44mil. His agent said you can get more from another team or Madson said he wanted more, either way Madson could have taken the offer against his agents wishes.— The Goalie
- Boras is brutal but Rube manages like there's no cap with limits upgrades & maybe re-signing players. Good luck & 2008 WS thanks to Maddog-sorry we didn't get a decent deal-hopefully Paps earns his crazy long term $.
- Rich, if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a merry Christmas. Speculating in journalism should be a futures market and not about the past, if you don't know what happened, go and find out for us. You are the one with the shiny press credential and (alleged) contacts. Go snoop and find out which of your myriad of possibilities of why Madson gets the short end before writing a speculative piece about what might have been. How many question marks are in this short piece? Inform the public rather than ask a series of banal questions which cover all of the bases (pun intended).
- Agreed, chiefohara - good post.
The IdleRich title is not ironic, but the truth. When was the last time he did go to work and sort out one of this issues - and the poster follow on with the same opinionated drivel following the Philly.com 'journalistic' lead. Several of the 'journalist's' here are lazy and speculate as @main pointed out several comments/articles ago.
It leads to banal responses by the commenters, who feel enabled by the lack of facts, data, and analysis to post comparably feeble responses. As of this comment, 90 posts on this byline - what a waste of energy, time and resources. Just by my calculation, taking average salaries, time from work, and projected potential income, $1M dollars worth of valuable time and energy has been wasted, all instigated by this error in judgement.
The horror.— 24sDad - You sound jealous....and jilted. Good for Madson. Hope the Reds beat the Philadelphia Yankees.— dontlikeneocons
- Philadelphia Yankees? Wow too funny, but don't hate the teams, hate the Commissioner and the CBA for allowing overpayment and not having a hard salary cap
— jamarder - Comment removed.
- This is baseball scotch breath. They do not play it in phroaig land. — johnny eagle
- I thought the point was that we don't know if we could have had Madson for 44M? did we pull our offer off the table? did Madson/Boras reject it? — shagsrc
- I thought the point was that we don't know if we could have had Madson for 44M? did we pull our offer off the table? did Madson/Boras reject it? — shagsrc
- Hey Rich...you are a reporter, act like one. Cultivate a source and go find answers to your own questions. This is written like you just took stenography from a local bar. This is why you guys got scooped on the Conlin story, and the Richards trade, and the Carter trade et al. You are not reporters at all. — Joe Devola
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