The pledge of a grievance
Some kids are just show offs
The pledge of a grievance
There is a child in Western Pennsylvania who doesn’t want to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. And the law says she doesn’t have to. Almost 70 years ago, the Supreme Court ruled in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that schools cannot coerce students into reciting the pledge. That’s why most schools have made it a voluntary act.
So it’s unlikely that the (of course) un-named child will have to show the proper respect to her country and her flag because she has the individual and fundamental right to be rude.
(I’m sure the civil libertarians out there consider it a fundamental right of conscience. You say tomato, I say to-MAH-to.)
Still, I’m getting increasingly annoyed at parents who instill in their children the idea that they are ‘all that’ and aid and abet them in their preciousness. Even if this middle school child came up with this animus toward the country by herself (according to her she can’t fathom pledging allegiance given the ‘state of the country’ just now) her parents should have knocked that existential angst out of her adolescent head and said “don’t make a spectacle of yourself, Susie, life is not a reality show.”
I’m sure the ACLU types will be horrified by that. I mean, after all, our children are our future and we want them to think independently, right?
Well, some children are actually just show-offs who like to get on the evening news. And their parents have no problem signing up an agent for them.
With celebrity, and chutzpah, for all.
Comments (77)
ncl, how does Wall Street get all that power if not through the Congress?— PlumberJoe- Lefty, if you missed Orchestra guy's posts on this Blog, you missed nothing. He repeatedly said that the little 8 year old kid had the right to sit out the saying of the Pledge. In this great country, he felt, the Pledge was not literally accurate with its words of "Liberty and Justice for all." And that the little kid was smarter than a great many others. And so he went on and on and on. He missed or deliberately (more like it) missed the point of the Blog. And stubbornly continued his rant.
He also managed to disrespect Magistra when she explained the rules for decorum and instruction in the classroom and importantly how to properly instruct a child who wants to protest the Pledge.
I do not know if he got the boot or just pouted and ran away. Either way he has no more courage than his idol, the vote NO man. Perhaps he will reincarnate and return as the Kingston Trio.— PlumberJoe 
If one desired to establish more recent precedent of an expression of disdain toward principles and traditions guiding respect for the American flag, we need only go back to 9-17-07, when then US senator and presidential candidate Barack Hussien Obam stood tall on an Indianola, Iowa stage and disregarded the respect and decorum of placing a non-uniformed hand over one's heart during the Anthem and the pledge.
His action, or should I say "inaction," was, put simply, his way of assuring the other gangs of 4+1 that he was one of them. Such is the lack of character that influences the left's sentiments and guide them through the darkness of relativist thought.— lefty- Hey guys, I missed out on Harris's, oops I mean orchestra guy's comments. Having had only one of my comments on Christine's 4/27 oped removed because I dared bring into the picture the proverbial "hanger" the pro-abortion crowd introduces into the discussion when overturning RvsW is raised, I can only guess what the hermaphrodite had to say.
Interesting how the present part time professor questions the other teacher's progressiveness by challenging her true blue attributes those on the left are supposed to hold onto without question. Thanks soph for proving just how intolerant you (+1) and the gang of 4 are when it comes to expressing an opinion.— lefty - Richard and his Orchestra appear to have crossed the line. It looks like all of his comments have been removed. Wish I had had time to pop in yesterday to see what they were!— sadim
- Hamblin, you have no orchestra. You have no common sense. You have no friends. You have no logic. You have nothing, other than illusions about a puppet president who wants to sign a treaty with the terrorist taliban.
You do have a hero. A little girl in the 8th grade, who likes to sit during the Pledge. But that is understandable. You write like an 8th grader.
The last word is yours. Forward it to the next Blog. I am finished with this Blog.— PlumberJoe - Hamblin, tell us again about traditions and Thanksgiving and eating turkey.
That could well be one of the most idiotic posts you ever made.
And be sure to tie that in with the Pledge.
And while you are at it, don't forget to slur Magistra once more.
I am glad she can finally see you for what you really are, Richard.— PlumberJoe 
Comment removed.- Magistra, your old age is really showing today. Try that in a classroom today and you'll be the immediate target of lawsuits. I guess you talk the talk but don't walk the walk much anymore. Times have changed.— sophistry
- There are those in this forum who do not understand the distinction between a tradition and the saying of the Pledge. Nor do they understand how to construct a logical expression of disagreement. It is no wonder they cannot understand why the behavior of the youngster in question is out of bounds.
Protests over the Pledge in a grade school are better served when lead by the teacher as classroom instruction to explore differences of opinion in a learning environment.
A great failure in this country is its divisiveness.— PlumberJoe - Comment removed.
- Really, Hamblin, you go too far. You make me sound like Mao or Pol Pot or even Stalin.
Citizenship has certain rights and responsibilities. It is not ALL rights and no responsibilities. The student has a responsibility to behave in class according to class and school rules.
"Conscience" is a blanket word that could be used to justify almost any act on earth. A terrorist suicide bomber is acting on his conscience for example.
Sitting down in violation of a rule is disruptive by it very nature. It sets a standard of behavior dictated by the student and could be easily imitated by others until all rules are rendered null and void.
Some teachers might choose to ignore the rude behavior of one student. Others might make it a "teachable moment" that gives the student a chance to explain motivation and the merits of the act.
Really, one could argue that any law on earth deprives someone of a "freedom". Compulsory education is one of those laws that makes it unlawful to just run around the streets all day when you are supposed to be in school. Once in school, the student is expected to adhere to the school's rules, no matter how quaint or silly they appear to outside eyes.
If you do not get my point, I cannot help that. I am off this subject.
Ciao.— Magistra - Comment removed.
- Orchesta guy, you remain the master of non-sequitur and the epitome of irrational statement. — PlumberJoe
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- PS - an idea occurred to me. If a student sincerely objected to standing for the Pledge, silent or not, I would have given the student an assignment to explain her reasons on paper. She could employ all her time sitting during the morning ritual writing her excuses. She would have to justify her actions with a strong argument.
Another idea would have been to make a civics lesson out of it where students could debate the pros and cons of saying the Pledge.
I could go on all day. If a student is really sincere, then making this a part of the educational process should be welcomed.
— Magistra - Comment removed.
- May I add, and I do plan to make this my last post: In this country we have what is known as a "civil religion"
a set of special values, customs and unifying social cohesiveness that identify us as Americans. It includes respect for the rule of law, loyalty to our country, a spirit of nationalism, and belief in our system of government.
As each new round of immigrants comes here, they absorb those customs and values until they can call themselves truly American.
The flag is merely a symbol. But an important one. I witnessed the swearing in of new citizens once. They came from all over the globe. As the judge presided over their newly acquired citizenship, their first act was to say the Pledge. At that moment, they dropped their old allegiances and adopted a new nation.
School is about training future citizens in our laws, our mores, our customs and our all aspects of our "civil religion".
While the first amendment may allow even the burning of that symbol and hate speech about our country, we still call such acts what they are....anarchy.
— Magistra - Comment removed.
- Comment removed.
- Hifi- you might have a point if the teacher's reaction was to overreact. If she yelled at the kid, made a mockery of her or otherwise lost her own self-control, that student might have a case.
But as a teacher who worked with that age group, and they can be very snotty and difficult, I found that simply asking them to rise with the rest of the class and not speak was sufficient appeasement of their personal beliefs.
I also know that parents with axes to grind or even some greed in their hearts can make mountainous lawsuits out of molehill situations.— Magistra - And to those who say the student was acting on her own conscience or whatever and not being disruptive, she has to find ANOTHER WAY to express her disdain of following classroom customs. She and otherscould make similar arguments against any conceivable rule or school protocol.
If she gets away with it, what is to stop the next student from finding some other rule or practice to break "respectfully"?
For some parents who didain all things patriotic about school, the answer is to homeschool, not try to change the mores and customs of the school.
I did not observe the teacher there, so do not know how she could have handled it. But I have observed many classrooms where kids with no self-control make a joke of class rules and break down the order of the school room.
We cannot tolerate it or all bedlam breaks loose.— Magistra - How is sitting quietly looking for attention. The teacher's actions created the media circus. She deserves to be sued. The schools have lost these lawsuits every single time. Once the violation of rights continued at the district level, there is no question of liability. The girl should be able to attend college on the settlement.
This stupidity (no less un-Americanism) is going to cost the district, big-time, and their constituents should not be pleased.
Please do this kind of thing in my district. My kids need money for college, too.— Hifi - Thanks to Plumber for repeating my point and to Weir99 for also understanding.
Standing is not the same as speaking. It is just a simple posture that shows respect for everyone in the classroom not allegiance to any particular credo, dogma or political ideology.
If my students had said that their religion disapproved of any posture that turned them towards the flag, I would have excused them from standing. They did not because it does not.
But religion is more compelling than political ideology. Sitting as "protest" to the Pledge is inappropriate behavior in a classroom. At a sporting event, maybe, one could sit during the National Anthem and all that, but in the classroom, the rules say to stand and rules cannot be followed arbitrarily by students whose well being and safety are the responsibility of the teacher.— Magistra - Comment removed.
- SITTING WHILE OTHERS STAND FOR THE PLEDGE IS A STRONG STATEMENT, AN UNWARRANTED STATEMENT, AN ILL MANNERED STATEMENT OF DISDAIN FOR COUNTRY AND YOUR FELLOW CLASSMATES.
Only an anarchist disrespects his country. The kid in question is not an anarchist, at least, not yet.
Participating in the Pledge is an affirmation of love of country. It is not a political statement. It is not a statement on agreement or disagreement with the "state of the country."
It is an expression of recognition that this country provides for and protects the liberties and freedoms of its citizens as best as any country can do.
The Pledge is far more than a tradition, such as Halloween or Thanksgiving. Neither of those express a love of country and freedom and commitment to practicing good citizenship. They have a different purpose. And we do not stand together in a public group and express words of respect for these holidays.
No child is compelled to recite the Pledge. And if the Pledge should cause personnel angst, then a showing of respect for everyone else reciting the Pledge is in order.
Simply standing quietly during the Pledge makes your point and at the same time shows respect for all others who are participating.— PlumberJoe - Comment removed.
- Weir, you project a polite demeanor. I frequently do not. Yet, there is no certainty that you have more respect for those deserving respect than I. So whose demeanor is better. Yours or mine. It could argued yours, because it never treads upon another's feelings. I could argue mine is, because it provokes issues that need to be challenged and otherwise wouldn't.
But the focus of this Blog is not respect for the pledge, it is exactly what the author identified when she said, "The point is that the child is just the latest example of the 'look at how wonderful and important' I am syndrome infecting society."
That is what should have been argued here and not all the extraneous distractions that predominate in the postings.— PlumberJoe - Comment removed.
- Looks like a simple classroom conflict got out of hand because a teacher didn't know how to choose his or her battles. I'm sure there are many kids in classrooms everyday in PA who do not stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we hear about them? Their teachers knew the law and probably explained to the kids how it was disrespectful, but did not try to overstep their authority and make them stand for 30 seconds.
Magistra, you're right that the teacher has the right to make kids stand, sit, do push-ups, whatever. However, when it comes to the Pledge, we all know that it is a gray area at best. As teacher, I'm sure you know the importance of picking the battles that you will win.
Standing for the Pledge of Allegiance is not some kind of government brainwashing. It's an American tradition. Traditions are good. Many are the things that we don't understand or think are foolish when we are young, and still don't understand and know were foolish as we grow older. And then we can laugh about them together.— weir99 - Magistra, let me sum up Richard for you.
He disrespects the Pledge, he disrespects the Catholic faith, he disrespects civility in the classroom, he disrespects the mourning of those who have recently passed, he disrespects you, he disrespects Christine, he slanders.
It is likely he favors anarchy and disrespects the flag. And that is only a start at his curriculum vitae.
Mainly he, so far, has no opinion worthy of note.
Now, in spite of all that, I am once again willing to call a truce and start afresh with him. All he needs to do is to vent one last time and then agree to a truce.
There is so much of importance to discuss in a civil tone. Can you do that, Richard?— PlumberJoe - Christine, you made your point. You delivered a special message to Hamlbum.
You said, "The point isn't the substance of the pledge. But you already knew that. The point is that the child is just the latest example of the 'look at how wonderful and important' I am syndrome infecting society."
But he does not understand that and he never will.— PlumberJoe - Magistra, you have made your points. You need not defend them. They are self evident.
Hamlbum does not understand them. And it is obvious he never will.— PlumberJoe - Comment removed.
- Afterthought:
The reason for the Pledge in the first place was to acculturate immigrant children to their new country. It was meant to insitll loyalty to the nation and the nation's laws.
Some may think this anachronistic and quaint, but the last time I looked, we still have many immigrants entering the country.
School is partly about learning and partly about instilling responsible citizenship.
— Magistra - We had a quaint custom when I was growing up. Whenever an adult entered the classroom, we children had to rise out of respect for the adult. It was meant to teach us manners and nothing more. We were taught to respect our teachers, our books and all things related to learning.
Some would call that an authoritarian classroom. Yet, we never had fights or threatened each other or vandalized the school's property.
It would never have occurred to us to sit, turn our backs or otherwise oppose the school's rules.
Nota bene: I am not entering any of the skirmishes on this board. I think I made my point.
Good night to all.
— Magistra - "It is entirely about respect."
Not even blunt force trauma could knock some respect into the heads of the gang of 4 (leader) and + 1. So, let's just giggle, girls.— PlumberJoe - Comment removed.
- Yes, the point here is that this column is stupid as written from the hand of a stunad. Christine's argument is that a kid wants to be on TV so she decides to be difficult about the Pledge of Allegiance? Maybe the kid wants to be on TV, but there are certainly more interesting ways to get (temporarily) famous. A huge SO WHAT???? is the inevitable response of anyone who reads this drivel.— sophistry
- "...[after 1960] federal policy regarding Indians shifted toward that of self-determination, or the right of a group or nation to independently govern themselves. The legislation that has arisen from this policy of self-determination, which has been in effect since the late 1960s to present-day, has greatly influenced modern-day Indian country jurisdiction. The Civil Rights Act of 1968 also amended Public Law 280 so that states no longer held civil and criminal jurisdiction over Indian country unless the tribes consented at certain elections.[20]— sophistry
- Matters not a fig. The Indian tribes are still subject to the laws of the U.S. They do not have diplomatic immunity. Their lands are not considered the lands of a foreign entity.
Get real, pumpkin.— PlumberJoe - When everyone in the classroom is standing, it is NOT respectful to sit. If this student is allowed to follow her own rules of when to sit or stand, the classroom discipline breaks down very quickly. Middle school students routinely test rules. If there is no discipline, they will walk out of class whenever they please, talk back whenever they please, or hang out the window if they so please.
I taught every grade from K to 8 and had children of all different races and religions. We had to respect each other's differences but remain a cohesive class.
It is entirely about respect. Sitting when all are standing is disrespectful of the class if not the flag.— Magistra - Comment removed.
- soph, you say, "As Native American reservations are technically NOT part of the USA (they are sovereign), they are foreign."
As usual, soph, old, very old girl, you are wrong. Plain and totally wrong.
All Indian lands are superseded by Federal, State and even, where applicable, local jurisdictions. Time to give it up. Being a +1 is hardly stimulating. Get a job.
— PlumberJoe - Absolutely right, @scooby.
Foreign denotes "not of this area," As Native American reservations are technically NOT part of the USA (they are sovereign), they are foreign. Wherever I lecture, @sadim, you can be sure that your kid will not likely be admitted.— sophistry - Hypochrissy really just has a problem with non-conformists. She wants everyone to be little robots that all think and act the same way. What do you expect from someone who was raised to believe everything that her cult taught her. I bet those kids would be pledging allegiance to the fetus if she were the teacher. (HTML deleted)— scoobysnacks
- Hypochrissy really just has a problem with non-conformists. She wants everyone to be little robots that all think and act the same way. What do you expect from someone who was raised to believe everything that her cult taught her.
I bet those kids would be pledging allegiance to the fetus.— scoobysnacks - "She has the smarts and the maturity to reject the pledge if that's what her conscience demanded."
Not so fast, hamlbum. Again, you are too quick to judge. Seems to be consistent with you, always a rush to judgment.
This matter seems to be headed to court.
You severely missed the point of this Blog, even after the author was kind enough to enlighten you..... yet once again.
— PlumberJoe - Comment removed.
- Hamlbum, the war is over. The bowing president is in Afghanistan signing a peace treaty. Too bad the treaty (agreement) is with the ally and not with the enemy.— PlumberJoe
- Foreign means not of this country. If you don't speak it it is not necessarily foreign. Professor where?— sadim
- That's a foreign language if you don't speak it, Poopster.— sophistry
- and that begs the question- what foreign language do you speak, soppy?????????? No one understands what you are trying to say. — PlumberJoe
- It was a native American indian language... not foreign. Facts, facts, facts......— sadim
- Whatevs, Mrs. Buttkisser. Don't you know it's rude to speak in foreign languages in front of others who do not speak that language? The nail salon ladies certainly know it. You are no better. And by the way, there was a Catholic school teacher in Wisconsin who was attacked for telling a kid not to speak in a foreign language in class...the parents went after her and demanded she be fired. What do you think of that?— sophistry
- Magistra, in the light of what you said, I will repeat my above post. It is not nearly as polite as yours, but the point is the same.
"As for this little brat, lport. There is plenty wrong with disrespect. But it's a free county, so I can disrespect you any time I wish. But why??? What does that accomplish. Teach the little brat manners. That way she won't grow up to be a Hamlbum."
— PlumberJoe - Children in school do not have the exact same rights as adult citizens. They may not walk out of their classrooms at will or shout during lessons or throw food at each other. In other words, they are required to behave in a civilized and respectful manner at all times. They may even have a dress code.
So freedom of speech is not something they fully enjoy while they are under the supervision of a licensed adult.
So let's drop the pretense that school children have all the freedom in the world to express themselves. They are expected to have self control.
— Magistra - Comment removed.
- First of all, the Pledge is part of most schools' morning ritual. Some add songs or poems to the recital.
However, no student can be required to say it, especially if they have religious objections. I often taught Jehovah's Witnesses and they refused to salute any flag or person or country.
What I did was politely ask them to remain standing in silence while the class recited the Pledge and any other morning ritual, out of SIMPLE COURTESY.
Teachers may direct students to move or sit or stand all day long. They expect to be respected and obeyed. It is part of discipline and simple manners.
No JW ever objected to standing quietly for the morning ritual. They kept their hands at their sides, while their classmates put theirs over their hearts. No problem.
In the state of Pennsylvania, teachers stand IN LOCO PARENTIS or "in place of the parent". If they give a direction, they should expect compliance.
Yes, the girl was just being rude and asking to be noticed.— Magistra - Comment removed.
- Christine, first of all thanks for the shout out in the previous blog. If I may translate that little haiku, it is really very benign:
"The sick little person enters the vomiting room and throws up."
If I want to curse someone in Latin, there are plenty of other ways to do it.
Sed infra dignitatum meum est.... but it is beneath my dignity.
8-)
And now to the topic....— Magistra - hamlbum, you are a zero. Zero talent. Zero originality. Zero manners. Zero depth of thinking.
And most of all, you have zero understanding of the world.
Hamlbum, you say, "...she has every right to refuse to recite some bad doggerel or catechism every morning,..."
And then you say, "It reminds me of those North Koreans crying (or pretending to) when dear leader died."
The two points are in direct contradiction. How can one incident REMIND you of the other.
Yes, indeed, you are a ZERO.— PlumberJoe - Comment removed.
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- Not true, hamlbum. Not even close. But I do have you venting again, and again, and again. — PlumberJoe
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- Isn't it cute how our favorite town drunk latches on to a new complaint about Obama and then continues to beat it senselessly into the ground for weeks at a time? Doesn't matter what Obama does, its wrong. I have no idea which foot Obama puts the first sock on, but I'm pretty sure PlumberJoe does and it's the wrong foot.
- Hamlbum is always griping. Obama walks funny, like a puppet. It's a free country Hamlbum; so I can say that. Can your gripe or I'll report you to the ACLU.
Obama cannot salute. The C-I-C never learned to salute. It's still a free country Hamlbum, so lump it.
The "missions accomplished" sign meant the ship had accomplished its mission and was now heading to home port. Get your facts straight Hamlbum, before you mouth off again.
As for this little brat, lport. There is plenty wrong with disrespect. But it's a free county, so I can disrespect you any time I wish. But why??? What does that accomplish. Teach the little brat manners. That way she won't grow up to be a Hamlbum.— PlumberJoe - So says the woman who thinks she is so special that she must share her opinion in a newspaper and on a Sunday talk show.— Ed G
- Come on Christine, lighten up. In a free country, one is entitled to free speech as well as no speech. I don't know what this kid's motivation is and I don't care.— lport
- Comment removed.
- Who gives a rat's fanny if the kid doesn't want to stand and recite the pledge? Who's it hurting? I'm getting more than a little sick of people being so bothered by what the next person does when it's not affecting them.— scoobysnacks
- Comment removed.
- The point isn't the substance of the pledge. But you already knew that. The point is that the child is just the latest example of the "look at how wonderful and important" I am syndrome infecting society. As I noted in my previous post, with which you took issue, Hamblin, we are far too impressed with ourselves. That includes ACLU types, John Birchers and all of those in between. — Christine
- The Pledge is asinine. Schools make kids recite it like a cult prayer, It's wrong to make kids do this every day; it also makes the words become meaningless. The Pledge would be far weightier if it were recited only on special occasions. But obviously, the kid is being used by his/her parents and surely did not come up with this idea all by her or himself. Maybe we need to rethink the robotic recitation of the Pledge. It is ominously akin to religion...— sophistry
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Christine M. Flowers
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