Hey, don't you know that only Muslims can be victims?
Playing "My religion is more persecuted than yours."
Hey, don't you know that only Muslims can be victims?
Marwan Kreidie is angry. How dare any religion other than Islam claim persecution? Haven’t we already decided that only Muslims can be victims of discrimination and abuse?
The thing that raised Kreidie’s ire, as he expressed in today’s Inquirer, is the fact that the Catholic bishops had the audacity to advocate for their right to religious freedom under the First Amendment by not having to subsidize birth control, sterilization and abortifacents for employees.
I mean, Catholics in particular, and Christians in general, aren’t a persecuted minority, right?
Reality check, Mr. Kreidie. Muslims are not being massacred in the United States. But my brothers and sisters in Christ are being muzzled, mutilated and murdered in majority Muslim countries. Churches are burned in Nigeria, while worshippers try and escape the flames. Catholics are assassinated in Kenya, by a Muslim sect that calls us infidels. Christians are forced to go underground in China, and Coptics fear the Brotherhood in Egypt.
You tell me, Mr. Kreidie, just who has to worry about losing their rights, or their lives?
Comments (63)
So you're saying it's wrong to hold the United States to a higher standard than those Arab countries still living in the Middle Ages?— evolutionary
Comment removed.- See, if Comcast would only add al-jazzera to it's cable lineup, we could all understand better the genocide and why it's OK. You infidels just don't get it.— jimmymack
- You know nothing about Al Jazeera if you think it is an apologist for what goes on in Arab countries. It has always been a thorn in the side of Arab leaders and has been as critical of them as it has of American policy. Yes, we all would have a better understanding of what goes on there if Comcast added it to its cable line-up. We would understand the genocide better, but not why it is OK. — prenestino
- @CleanupPhilly - I typically like your posts, especially on local Philly stories (even if your rightist rhetoric is often hyperbolic).
But I am puzzled by your post here, and I wonder if you just did it for attention. Do you truly believe that a hypothetical 100% Republican Congress and a Republican President would all of a sudden "require" or "force" our strategically located allies to change their religious tolerance and govern the way we want them to?
For one thing, I think you vastly overstate the differences in the Dems/Republicans governing styles, especially with respect to foreign relations; you similarly vastly overstate the power of the US and what can be accomplished by wielding soft power.
Baffling post, and that's coming from a devout Moderate.— evolutionary - These Islamic killers are about as close to a religion as the Klu Klux Klan.— PlumberJoe
- I agree. Even the Klan thought it was a religious organization. The fact is every religion has those who make it a life affirming force and those who make it into a vehicle for hate. A person's religion is whatever the individual; makes of it. — prenestino
- Chris, I read the report on the horrific persecution of Christians in Muslim countries throughout the world. It is an outrage of course.
Persecution does seem to accompany the disruption of authoritarian governments which may have once kept a tighter rein on the conflicting sects, including between those Muslim sects like the Sunnis and Shiites who traditionally make war on each other.
Radical fundamentalism seems to be the engine behind all this.
What is especially troubling is the enforcement of so called "blasphemy laws" which add an insurmountable dimension to the problem.
I agree with "evolutionary" who says we need to hold the US to a higher standard while demanding protection for all religious minorities in those countries that expect and get aid from us.
I also think that prudence requires that our American politicians watch their rhetoric in case it is used as a propaganda tool by those same radicals.
— Magistra - Comment removed.
- I can testify from personal experience to the persecution of non-believers by members of a specific religion in this country. I have been threatened with physical violence and told I am immoral because I am not a member of 'their' religion. They have told me I "should" go to "their" church instead of being 'narrow minded' by not being willing to believe what they believe. This has occurred my whole life only by members of this specific religion. Once a fellow teacher overheard me say to another that I was not religious, and he came over to me afterwards to express his rage. What does anyone think should be my attitude toward this particular church? — prenestino
- PJ, a very apt comparison. The KKK was(is) an organizaton of domestic terrorists that used Christian symbolism as a rallying point in their murderous persecution of blacks in the deep South. They would actually sing Christian hymns while lynching someone.
There were also the infamous Know Nothings who were Protestant radicals who attacked Catholic churches and murdered priests during the late 19th century.
So terrorism and religious fanaticism is an historic reality. So, now what do we do to stop the systematic persecution of non-Muslims in the modern world?— Magistra - Hamblin, you should scarf up any left over Whitney Houston nerve calming pills still on the floor. Piling on is your hobby- Paterno, Catholics, and anyone else who has something counter to your crazy left wing hallucinations. Calm down, little man.— PlumberJoe
- Richard, please don't exaggerate. Let's not conflate political rhetoric with actual organized terrorism.
The problem is that many on the right do not want universal health care for many reasons. Some are concerned that a universal program will pay for procedures they consider morally wrong, like abortion or contraception.
As we already hashed out in the op-ed board, for many it is a Hobson's choice. You cannot have universal health care without some kind of compromise. The president tried to accommodate those with conscientious objections. It will never be perfect nor satisfy his political opponents.
What the cited article describes is a REAL war on religion.
So what do we do about it?— Magistra - You chide Richard for exaggerations, but I think your perception of a "real war on religion" is just such a hyperbole (At least that is my perception) If Catholics believe that all this is an assault on their religion, then that is what it is. The question to be resolved then is whether that is just the way things have to be. We have a conflict of values, a conflict of interpretations, a host of conundrums.
But we're still good people who are concerned about what is "right."— prenestino - Reality check, Ms. Flowers. Catholics are not being massacred in the United States, either.— Ed G
- Comment removed.
- Magistra, the U.S. could start by sending our Nobel Peace Prize winner on a world tour to pray for peace.
He could dress like Gandhi and remind everyone of his youthful days in Muslim schools.— PlumberJoe - Careful, Hamblin. Soon the Dean will be taking you out behind the school house for the good thrashing you have earned. You will be standing for a week.— PlumberJoe
- Also, Richard, I brought up those historical cases of religious violence in this nation as examples that prove that sectarian hatred is not foreign to our shores. Do we have to go back to Salem? Do we have to recall how Catholics were barred from Protestant operated public schools and were forced to found their own system?
What makes our country superior to those violent places in the world is our form of laws that emphasize religious liberty, a goal we need always to uphold, even if it offends some of those who want the world to be one big Bohemian utopia.
No religious test for public office should be permitted.
No more witch hunts.
And yes, we have come eons away from the medieval mindset of many places in the Middle East and Africa.
— Magistra - Comment removed.
- PJ, you can also help by not making me the disciplinarian all the time. There are many points on which we can all agree. Get out your Venn Diagram worksheets and look at the combined circles.
Religious persecution should have ended centuries ago. Even the author of the article in reference, Kreidle, mentions that all the confessed religions believe in the patriarch Abraham. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all Abrahamic religions.
The conflicts lie in custom and culture. Too bad. We need to find a way to accommodate those cultural differences and live in peace.
For those who are non-believers, fine. who cares? Follow your own consciences.
Again, I say we need to give an example of not merely tolerance but of brotherhood.
Those are the points on which we need to agree.
The rest is commentary.— Magistra - Richard, I see it differently. Christine is saying that the article in question that appears in today's paper is overly concerned with Muslim persecution in this country, while in Muslim countries, Christians are being slaughtered. Her blog piece is calling to attention the imbalance of so called "persecution" of religion in this and other countries.— Magistra
- Look, let's agree that violent persecution of any race, religion or fill in the blank is evil and must be stopped. I suspect that a lot of it more motivated by greed than religion. Driving people from their homes makes their land available for seizure. It is an old bait and switch trick. Let's face it, look at all the lands and businesses confiscated by the Nazis when they declared the Jews an alien race to be eradicated.
It is always more about power than love of God for sure.
If we need to get tough with these countries, let's do it. Make it so not worth their while to persecute anyone that maybe they will think twice.
Again, I would caution all politicians to watch their words.— Magistra - Comment removed.
- Oh, and Richard, I am not a hypocrite for not mentioning medieval religious persecutions. I was talking about the history of the United States and our own involvement with religious violence. I was also responding to PJ's comment about the KKK, and American terrorist group.
I hear the word "hypocrisy" thrown around way too much on these boards and in inappropriate ways.— Magistra - Comment removed.
- I disagree with your last statement, Richard, that we are only concerned with our own group. In this nation we have gone all the way up to making "Hate" a crime. I think that is unnecessary but there it is. At least it is an attempt to discourage any crime that is based on whatever attribute you want to insert.
Look for example at the attempts in parts of the world to make homosexuality a capital crime just as being a Jew in 40's Germany was or being a Christian now is in Eqypt.
— Magistra - This post is such a failure. Mr. Kreidie points out that the very Christians who are now screaming about Obama violating their religious freedoms were more than happy to infringe on the religious freedoms of Muslims here in the United States. Ms. Flowers knows that she has no argument against this so instead she points to persecution of Christians in other countries.— Ed G
- Finally, as I take a break for lunch, this blog piece is a call for attention to a horrible situation that dwarfs certainly any talk of discrimination in this country against Muslims, Catholics, women, gays or whatever.
It is called GENOCIDE. It is happening now, not in the 16th century and it must be exposed for what it is and stopped.
End of story.
Be well all.
Pax et bonum vobis— Magistra - Hamblin, if you want to cite to terror groups, it might be good to get their names right. It was the "Know-Nothings." By the way, there's no Muslim massacres in the US either, so maybe we should all just shut up about how horrible it is to be a Muslim in this society. Hey, I don't see Catholics getting their own reality shows on TLC (or was it Bravo, I forget?)— Christine
- The reality show you refer to is there because of a need to counter the stereotyping and hate mongering of Moslems in general in this country. It is a boring show only because it affirms that Moslems are just ordinary people going about their lives just as everyone else does. This whole controversy raging in the news every day is one giant "Catholic Reality Show." — prenestino
- Hamblin, if you want to cite to terror groups, it might be good to get their names right. It was the "Know-Nothings." By the way, there's no Muslim massacres in the US either, so maybe we should all just shut up about how horrible it is to be a Muslim in this society. Hey, I don't see Catholics getting their own reality shows on TLC (or was it Bravo, I forget?)— Christine
Hamblin, you are a simpleton.
Why these women even bother to respond to you is a testimony to how women need to wipe the noses of little boys who are dribbling on their chinny chin chin.
You have not produced even one logical argument. If I err, simply point it out. You won't, because you can't.— PlumberJoe- Ms. Flowers, I hardly think you are in a position to chastise Hamblin for getting Know-Nothings wrong when you continued to call it the Susan J. Komen Foundation in previous posts. You were the one who referenced Christians being massacred in foreign countries as a retort to Mr. Kreidie's opinion. So I guess since no Catholics are being massacred in this country we should just shut up about how horrible it is to be a Catholic in this society. And have you never heard of the Duggars?— Ed G
- Exactly right, EdG and Richard. This post is much ado about nothing. It is a political and religious witch hunt in and of itself. For shame, Ms. Flowers. And by the way, Waah! Waah! That's you, crying over nothing...except the fact that intolerant bigotry such as the type you learned at home is going the way of the pterodactyl.— sophistry
- Comment removed.
- Ed G is learning how to spell. He can spell Susan Q. Komen or is it Susan Y. Komen?
Eddy, Catholics are great, and so is every religion, except for the crazies masquerading under the Islamic umbrella. To repeat, Eddy, these crazy Muslims are no more a religion than the Klu Klux Klan. (Too many K's there for you, Eddy?)— PlumberJoe - Hamblin, there you go again. Phony logic. You said, "...they were also anti-immigration much like our modern day reactionaries."
Not true, Hamblin. Not true, just like you do not have an Orchestra.
Show me where that statement is true.
C'mon, Magistra, wake up. This guy is a hot air balloon. Every little Venn diagram says so.
— PlumberJoe - Magistra, now for you. You said to Hamblin, "Oh, and Richard, I am not a hypocrite..."
You lower yourself when you apologize to a nitwit. Would you lie down in the gutter and converse with a drunk.
Show me one statement he made worthy of a response. He gets an F- for his posts. The lowest grade possible.
I would say none of what he said made any sense, whatsoever. He did not offer one fact. Everything he said as factual in support of his opinion is contrived, false, untrue, a lie. I might say he argues like a typical liberal. But then I would be entering into his world of argument.
— PlumberJoe - Plumber, you should realize that most of what you post is like a boomerang that just comes back at you. People reading what you write learn about you, not whom you are attacking. — prenestino
- First of all, PJ, I am not apologizing to anyone. I am correcting misconceptions. Here is another one.
@prenestino (addressed to Mag) - "You chide Richard for exaggerations, but I think your perception of a "real war on religion" is just such a hyperbole (At least that is my perception."
The phrase "real war on religion" that I used in my comment was in reference to the bloody violence described in the article cited in Christine's post. That is certainly NOT an exaggeration. And it is definitely a genocidal attack on human beings because of their religion. I think that "war" is an appropriate term as is "persecution" and perhaps "atrocity".
I do not need to compare present day violence to ancient acts of similar motivation. Because it is all of a piece.
And Richard it is not the international church or its hierarchy that is bleeding but the poor souls being attacked today in the uncivilized world.
— Magistra - OK, Mag. Correction noted and accepted. — prenestino
- prenestino, you post like a sensible person. Perhaps you and I should have a sensible discussion. If you so desire. We can address both the original material in the blog and the irrational responses, there are many, including my nonsense, except for the matter of the KKK. But I will be totally rational with you.— PlumberJoe
- OK, Joe, It's on. kensingtonino@gmail.com — prenestino
- Finally, and I think this is the real point here. No one has a monopoly on victimhood. One day it is women, another day, gays, another Catholics or Protestants or Jews or Muslims. We have all had a turn at discrimination.
A few have actually had more than their share. Right now there is enough evidence that a modern genocidal movement being launched against non-Muslims, particularly Christians in Muslim countries.
It needs to stop. And if this country has any power to change things, it must. The whole world community should be condemning it.
Enough said.
And I do not see any such persecution creeping up on us in America. As long as we have a free press and a boatload of electronic devices, no one can get away with anything like that.
We have a poltical process for settling our differences. Let's work to keep it that way.
— Magistra - Magistra, reread the Blog. Here is the real point. "Reality check, Mr. Kreidie. Muslims are not being massacred in the United States. But my brothers and sisters in Christ are being muzzled, mutilated and murdered in majority Muslim countries." Kreidie is off base. He, like Hamblin, sees it only his way, through lenses that distort the truth. He ignores the full picture and presents a case that is more than exaggeration, more than a bold lie. It is a deliberate attempt to inflame. The ire in this piece is directed at Kreidie. There is no effort or value to bringing in all the other ills of the world, which merely serves to loose focus on this specific issue.
"From one end of the muslim world to the other, Christians are being murdered for their faith." So back down, Magistra, and identify one monumental problem at a time. In this instance, it is not Gays or women or Muslims, etc.
So what does your political savior, Obama, have to say about this matter, when he is not forcing the free delivery of contraceptives upon independent institutions or private businesses? Or raising the government subsidy for the Chevy Volt to $10,000. or neglecting to pass a budget for the 4th consecutive year. What does the great Nobel Peace Prize winner have to say and more importantly what has he done.— PlumberJoe - errata; loose becomes lose.
it is not Gays or women or Muslims becomes it is not Gays or women or sensible Muslims
— PlumberJoe - Bit of minutia: The Japanese gov't subsidized the Toyota Prius almost 1$Billion. It resulted in a spectacular worldwide car production and profits for Japan and the Japanese autoworker. Not enough room here to list all the good it did. Gov't interference such as this has saved Harley Davidson, Chrysler Motors, others, thus preserving industry, jobs, and the capitalist system. A famous right wing conservative once said,"The purpose of government to to do things the people can not do for themselves" (I think there is some relevancy here) — prenestino
- PJ, I read the article. Mr.Kreidie is complaining about certain overt acts, words and attitudes directed at American Muslims, which he claims are more severe than anything involving discrimination in health insurance.
For a presidential candidate to claim that he would not think of appointing a Muslim to his administration says a lot about the candidate's prejudices.
Christine counters with, wait a minute, buster, you want to talk about bigotry? Where is your concern for my fellow brethren in Christ who are being murdered in 2012 by your fellow brethren in the name of Islam?
It may not be happening here in America, but it is happening around the world and so of course some of us can get rather sensitive about the whole subject of discrimination.
And, PJ, I can bring other examples of discrimination into the discussion, because it all stems from the same source....hate.
— Magistra - "Christine counters with, wait a minute, buster, you want to talk about bigotry? Where is your concern for my fellow brethren in Christ who are being murdered in 2012 by your fellow brethren in the name of Islam?"
Well put, Magistra. The theme is explained in your very own words. Let's tackle that before we open it to every sin in every place by every one.
When you give a test in school, you expect the answers to be for the problem stated on the test.
I see that the Hamnblin logic is contagious. Non sequitur abounds.
— PlumberJoe - Comment removed.
- Magistra, the fact that week after week you have to decipher and translate *what Christine meant* to say demonstrates to all how inscrutable, poorly written and ill planned her essays are.— sophistry
- Richard, I get the point of double standards by politicians. What do you expect? We are talking about politicians running for office here. We expect them to exploit everything and turn it into propaganda.
It's what they do.
But there is also a difference between a candidate declaring he is not fond of hiring Muslims and a requirement that a religious institution violate one of its basic precepts in order to qualify for insurance coverage. That goes a step further. It steps on the constitution.
And of course there is back and forth propaganda because it involves the president the election. et cetera, et cetera.
But the article also hinted that there is less concern for Muslims as a targeted group than Christians. At that point, it is not a "red herring" (I think you meant "straw man") to mention that, oh, by the way, lots of Christians are suffering at the hands of Muslims in all parts of the world, so where is your sympathy for them?
Yes, and I know about Bosnia. Yes, persecution is evil no matter who does it to whom. I thought we established that.
Let's just stop the deceit that one group is more immune than another.
Over and out.
— Magistra - Comment removed.
- While Magistra and Hamblin are locked in a deadly embrace over red herrings and straw men, let's get back to the real issue.
What exactly did Marwan say? Marwan presented a boatload of name calling, slurs and ad hominem, Mawan forgot to include and support his diatribes with even a glob of facts. And when he was all finished with his outrageous speech he called for peace among all religions.
If ever there was a bigot, it is Marwan.
Marwan, the battle cry to you is- "the truth. you can't handle the truth."
Now if you doubt my opinion of the Marwan article, have a look for yourself. The only plausible explanation for the Marwan content is that is was written by Hamblin and His Orchestra- the Straw Men.
http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/inquirer/20120215_Defending_and_defaming_faith.html?jCount=2&#comments— PlumberJoe - So let's take a closer look. First we quote Hamlin, "The article (Marwan's diatribe) intimated that certain politicians are pretending to be the defenders of Catholics' religious freedom while at the same expressing and justifying discrimination against Muslims."
Here are Hamblin's very own words that mislead. [CERTAIN]...[ PRETENDING]...[JUSTIFYING DISCRIMINATION AGAINST MUSLIMS}.
So we ask, Which politicians and please accurately quote in context their statements.
And what is the circumstance of this pretense. Please provide details.
And how have they discriminated against Muslims.
Ad hominem is so easy to hurl around. I thought I already taught you better, Hamlin. Time for another lesson.— PlumberJoe - prenestino, to borrow from your logic, points such as you make reveal who you are.
You say, "The Japanese gov't subsidized the Toyota Prius almost 1$Billion." Exactly what does that prove? Does that remark change the inherent technical flaws of the Chevy Volt, the Solyndra debacle, the failure to approve the Keystone Pipeline and the subsequent jobs and energy loss to America. Obama has made a myriad of mistakes, all of which add up to either gross incompetence or worse, an intent to weaken and destroy this country.
I was pointing out the lack of Obama efforts to deal with radical Muslim acts, acts of war and terror and his other failures as well. All of which attest to his incompetence.
So what was your point? Were you suggesting we give away Chevy Volts to these radical Muslims? BTW, The Japanese government and its failed government economic policies kept them in depression for over 10 years.
We can debate right here. The world can witness the event. Don't be shy.— PlumberJoe - Lying to anyone other than a fellow Muslim is not a crime? I as a child, not of the house of Abraham, cannot trust you. Either your Prophet is one of humanity or not. The purpose of your people by silence or direct action have displayed a direct threat to me and my family. That to me is the sign of a false Prophet and a failed belief in the Supreme Being. I can no longer tolerate your intolerance. Islam for whatever good it my offer to the human experience is at it's core a pox upon humanity.— Rojo Juan
- PJ, the article alluded to comments made by some political candidates regarding the appointment of Muslims to their administrations. That is a fact.
One of those candidates was Herman Cain. I heard him say it myself. Now, if any candidate for president had said he would never appoint a black to a cabinet position, Mr. Cain (and others) would have been up in arms. That is where the (shudder) idea of "hypocrisy" comes from.
We all recall a time when a Catholic could not run for president, let alone a black man. Or a woman of any complexion.
The author was trying to say that in their zeal to protect religious liberty for Christians, the politicians, including Cain, were in fact ignoring their own biases against other religions - in particular Islam.
That was his point, but Christine also has the valid point that making Muslims into victims over such comments is ludicrous when Muslims elsewhere are doing more than lip service to discrimination.
We are not talking about ancient history here but today's news.— Magistra - Comment removed.
- "Christine is saying..." and "Christine meant to say..."--note the endless and repetitive explanations by the Dean. Too bad you have to work for free to translate Christine's blather, Magistra. Maybe you can be her new editor. It seems the job is open.
Christine is nothing more than a scary, angry Catholic Fundamentalist who, for her own convenience, picks which bits of extremist doctrine she likes. Note that it is usually those parts that persecute others--such as women, gays, etc.— sophistry - Magistra, I can not understand why you continue to defend the straw man that Ms. Flowers has set up? Ms. Flowers is an intelligent woman and knows exactly what she meant. Her words should not need your interpretation or defense. They should stand on their own. The fact is that she has not refuted a single statement of what Mr. Kreidie says in his article. She instead changed the topic.
When Newt Gingrinch made his comments about Park51, where were the Christians and their defense of the First Amendment? When Rep Peter King held his hearings on Muslims in America, where was the US Conference of Bishops? When Oklahoma targeted Muslims with their inane anti-Shariah law, I did not see any Republican condemning this as an affront to our Founding Fathers.
The fact is that the ACA contained a requirement for all employers. It did not target Christians or Catholics in particular. In fact, there was an exemption for religious organizations. But that is not enough for the US Conference of Bishops. As their lawyer has stated, they want this provision eliminated completely so that no employer has to provide contraceptive coverage, not just the religious ones. Now ask yourself who is trying to impose their religious beliefs on whom.— Ed G - Magistra, explain why Hamblin continues to take a single remark and claim ir represents millions of people's views. Because he foments trouble. Because he is unable to be cogent. Because, when he VENTS he types fast and his brain no longer is able to function.
Teach him, Magistra. He needs to learn to be a reasonable, reasoning person. Till then he is a dunce in the corner. A lover of ad hominem.
Don't vent, Hamblin. Don't type so fast. Be cogent. And BTW, the crazy Muslims are killing people all over the ME and Europe and here whenever they can. 9/11, Spain, England, the ME, just in case you forgot.— PlumberJoe
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See Christine Flowers on Channel 6's "Inside Story" Sunday at 11:30 a.m.
Christine M. Flowers
Daily News Columnist
Email Christine M. at cflowers1961@yahoo.com Reach Christine M. at cflowers1961@yahoo.com.
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