Monday, February 4, 2013
Monday, February 4, 2013

Doctors die differently than their patients

Do anything it takes to save him. These are the unfortunate pleas that too many patients and their families make when dealing with terminal illness and end-of-life decisions. They often don't want the fancy treatment, the life-prolonging chemotherapy, or the 2-hour-long cardiac resuscitation (CPR). They know the consequences, and they just say no.

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Doctors die differently than their patients

POSTED: Wednesday, January 16, 2013, 6:00 AM

“Do everything you can, doctor. Do anything it takes to save him.”

These are the unfortunate pleas that too many patients and their families make when dealing with terminal illness and end-of-life decisions. While the use of advance directives helps alleviate this problem by informing doctors in advance about a patient’s end-of-life wishes, there is still an underlying belief that medicine can cure everyone, even those people with the most terrible prognoses.

But doctors die differently than their patients. They often don’t want the fancy treatment, the life-prolonging chemotherapy, or the 2-hour-long cardiac resuscitation (CPR). They know the consequences, and they just say no.

In 2011, physician Ken Murray wrote an anecdotal essay on physicians’ end-of-life decisions called How Doctors Die. In 2012, Dr. Murray followed up with a second essay, Doctors Really Do Die Differently, which provided statistical evidence of the assertions he made in his first essay.

According to Dr. Murray, one physician friend was uninterested in taking advantage of his own invention to triple the survival rate of pancreatic cancer patients – from 5% to 15% – albeit with a poor quality of life. Instead, the physician left the hospital after his initial diagnosis, enjoyed time with his loved ones, and died a few months later.

While treating patients hooked up to dozens of tubes, machines, and medications, countless physician friends have said to Dr. Murray in varying ways, “Promise me if you find me like this that you’ll kill me.’ Some even wear jewelry marked “no code” to instruct providers to not perform CPR if the need arises

Of course, not all physicians follow the path Dr. Murray suggests. But in his second article, he provides statistical evidence of his experiences.

The Johns Hopkins Precursors Study was conducted based on the medical histories and decisions of a voluntary group of older physicians who graduated from the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine classes of 1948 through 1964. According to the study, 65% of the surveyed doctors had written an advance directive, whereas only about 20% of the public does so. Approximately 90% of the physicians responded that they would not want CPR if they were in a chronic coma, whereas only about 25% of the public gives the same answer.

So why do doctors die differently?

Every day, doctors see the effect of what they call “futile care.” They see patients languishing in the ICU, attached to ventilators, tube feeds, and other devices keeping them alive. On the other hand, many patients only see what is on TV.

A 1996 study found that CPR showed on television was successful 75% of the time and that 65% of the patients went home. On the other hand, a 2010 study of more than 95,000 cases of CPR in Japan found that only 8% of patients survived for more than one month and of those, only about 3% led normal lives post-code. Approximately 3% were in a vegetative state, and about 2% were alive with a “poor” outcome. And a 2010 study looked at terminal patients who did not want CPR but got it anyway. Of the 69 patients studied, eight regained a pulse, but, within 48 hours, all were dead.

Physicians may also make different recommendations for their patients than they would follow themselves. Physicians often feel that failing to save a patient shows weakness and professional inadequacy. This sentiment does not necessarily carry over to saving themselves.

If physicians feel that certain end-of-life and terminal illness treatments are futile, they should be open and clear with their patients. While the ultimate decision belongs to you, the patient, sometimes it is time to say enough is enough. And your physician is in the best place to help you determine when that time is.

-          By Erica B. Cohen

Erica Cohen @ 6:00 AM  Permalink | 31 comments
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Comments  (31)
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:02 AM, 01/16/2013
    Life is about quality, not quantity. Enjoy it while it last and it's seems like some doctors do..
    PDJ
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:14 AM, 01/16/2013
    My grandpa waited until he got to see his new 1 month old great-grandaughter (plus everyone else at the same time), and then told the docs to stop everything. He died 2 days later. He wanted to hang on just long enough to see her, and I'm sure he died a happy man.
    verve
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:18 AM, 01/16/2013
    Good article. Interesting look at the doctor's take on treatment and death. For me, if terminal, increase the morphine drip.
    dogman5
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:21 AM, 01/16/2013
    Very import read for us oldtimers to consider.
    BillyBob369
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:23 AM, 01/16/2013
    Awesome bit of research and reporting. This is important to the overall health care debate when too much healthcare spend goes to end of life care for no appreciable gains.
    PFCzar
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:25 AM, 01/16/2013
    The article makes a person think about where our priorities are as a nation. I would like to know how much of our nations medical costs are spent on those with no chance of a recovery and a return to a quality life. Also, how much longer people would continue living a quality life if that money was shifted to proper preventative care.
    Yellow Dog
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:39 AM, 01/16/2013
    Maybe Dr. "K" wasn't such an ogre after all.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:42 AM, 01/16/2013
    I'm with dogman. At my final hour, I want to go out in an opium bliss.
    suporma
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:52 AM, 01/16/2013
    My father had cancer that we all knew was terminal. Doctors kept recommending additional surgeries/treatments. His declined them and we took him out of the hospital to a hospice where he died a week later. He hung on to stay with my mother, but there was a point where it was all too much and he stopped treatment while he still had the legal authority to do so. I will do the same if I ever encounter similar terminal circumstances.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:54 AM, 01/16/2013
    My wife and doctors all have written advanced directives that no extreme measures be taken. I've seen the outcomes too many times in my career. Although a lot of opposition has been voiced on the ACA's paying physicians to do end of life counseling, it's both the right thing to do and could be very effective in saving the costs of care that do nothing to preserve the patient's quality of life. In-hospital intensive care is hugely expensive. If done with no reasonable hope of survival, it is wasteful of money better spent to preserve the health of patients with a reasonable expectation of a good outcome.
    gilbrook
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:50 AM, 01/16/2013
    Doctors die differently from us. They do their own CPR, order blood tests, bark at the nurses and their teammates to tell them to get their act together! Slipping a little? Go back to doing own CPR! Then their lawyer comes to draft last will (hard CPR on chest!) and when all is done and signed, then the doctor expires in style on the table in front of all present! Just like the quarterback who gets sacked in the end or gets carried away once sthrowing a winning TD.
    Aces high
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:56 AM, 01/16/2013
    good article or propaganda? The government and the insurance co-cartels are looking for ways to marginalize human life.
    USAFirst1
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 12:03 PM, 01/16/2013
    What doctors understand is that eventually we have that "bad outcome". Is it worth the time and energy of your loved ones and the pain that you are going through? When doctors say that there is a one in a million chance, patients think, like Lloyd from Dumb and Dumber,"So you are telling me there is a chance?"
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 12:34 PM, 01/16/2013
    Under Obamacare, we will be denied healthcare after a certain age with certain illnesses, all decided by "death panels" of bureaucrats in Washington. Keep voting Democrat, morons.
    Barbouze
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 12:43 PM, 01/16/2013
    Who cares what they do? This smacks of Big Brother! Take your medicine (or don't in this case) so we can save money.
    mijou6
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 1:03 PM, 01/16/2013
    Usually food and fluid is denied and then plenty of Valium to sedate. No one can survive this "care." If the docs determine it's time for you to die, they will make damn sure you do.
    Pugh
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 1:23 PM, 01/16/2013
    People just make your own choice but leave advance directives handy. This is probably the only sitution in life that you get to actually choose. Don't let your family decide for you. Save them the grief.
    A. Martinez
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 1:34 PM, 01/16/2013
    Where's the, "I want to go out sleeping peacefully like Grandpa, and not kicking and screaming like his passengers" joke? The end is inevitable. Carpe Diem!
    Eagle1Vegas
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 1:46 PM, 01/16/2013
    Doctors have no Heart
    JunkYard Dog
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 1:57 PM, 01/16/2013
    Barbouze is full of it.
    It was this type of rational discussion, and planning for the future, that Palin demonized, calling them "death panels".
    I have conservative doctor friends who see the enormous waste that goes into paying for an additional week or month of a patient's vegetative life - this is exactly where we need to be looking, but the so-called fiscally responsible Republicans purposely tried to frighten their know-nothing constituency.
    Keep voting Republican, fool, and the rest of the country will move on without you.
    Subtext
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:08 PM, 01/16/2013
    Doctors die differently than their patients because they can't bill for it.
    Ouwachon
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:51 PM, 01/16/2013
    @Barbouze: You are complete and irreconcilable hillbilly imbecile!
    BMan
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 4:06 PM, 01/16/2013
    We are all finite beings and the time will come for all of us to depart this world. I see nothing wrong with treating terminal patients with dignity and letting them go out if they so choose to. We treat our pets with more dignity then we do our relatives. There is a point of not returning to a life of quality and we should all be able to decide when that time comes. I think being hooked up to pumps and ventilators with tubes and wires everywhere might buy us more time, but if that time is nothing better then drooling in a nursing home, pull my plug. I'll see you on the other side.
    WBFO
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 4:44 PM, 01/16/2013
    Tell the truth, Erica! You know it's all about the money. There are no more patients, just customers, and docs pretend it isn't that way until they become a customer.
    Seegs
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:15 PM, 01/16/2013
    @mijou, Barbouze & USAFirst1 - you're all so misinformed and blinded by ideological prejudice that's making you irrational. My member name isn't just a nickname; it's my profession. I spend my life in ICUs dealing with the sickest of the sick. This isn't propaganda; it's human decency and common sense. CPR isn't a reset button, and it doesn't cure metastatic cancer. It is painful and it doesn't guarantee good outcomes. Death comes to us all, and in many cases, it is inevitable. Would you let a stranger punch your mother in the chest 500 times? That's what 5 minutes of CPR will get her, broken ribs and all. Think about it and process it, don't just swallow the latest GOP pabulum without questioning it. And I would hope one day, someone will have the decency to let you end your life with dignity instead of hurting you.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:03 PM, 01/16/2013
    I'm with dogman5. Let me go out on a very "high" note.
    person
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:56 PM, 01/16/2013
    Barbouze response is devoid of intelligence. Having just gone through the death of a loved one and listening to one set of doctors urging more "procedures" etc while another group was saying that it was futile and having my loved one just wanting the agony to end -- it's time that ALL doctors stop the charade that everyone can be cured every time and just be honest with patients and families so that the patient can die with dignity and with a modicum of peace. Doctors die differently because they are armed with knowledge and facts and logic and that drives them to make a sane decision for themselves.
    sherry37
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:36 AM, 01/17/2013
    people will always be like this because we value life more than anything else. no one wants to let go to soon. we' d rather be wrong about trying, because the alternative, death, is permanent. we don't want to question whether or not we did the right thing.

    and sometimes it is time to let go, but if you don' t it' s ok. we should never get to a point where it costs to much to keep t err thing, or assisted death. you survived a lot to get where you are, and you' 've earned the right to live.

    could you imagine a world where assisted death became the norm? eventually it would be expected. ever see twilight zone?
    MFPhils
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:09 AM, 01/17/2013
    Ofcourse Drs. don't want the same useless procedures that PROLONG suffering. Drs order these "life prolonging" procedures to MAKE MONEY, that's it. If there is no insurance, the expensive procedures NEVER get approved. The HIGHEST cost of medical care are "end of life" procedures and care that only prolong the suffering (we are not talking about "life saving") an extra week to 4 weeks and cost HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars. The patients don't even want the care. The doctors INSIST on it. Of course not for them or their family members.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:53 AM, 01/17/2013
    For those of you who think that this is propaganda or "big brother" speaking to marginalize human life, I, being a primary care doctor for geriatric patients would say this....1) it both compassionate and humanitarian to provide a patient with the opportunity to die a dignified death, 2) if cost is not an issue, would you be willing to take responsibility for even 1% of the costs incurred by a dying mother or father in their last year of life? 3) what if funds were put into providing lots of extra in home support services in the last year of life rather than paying for medical cost? 4) Lets get over the medicalization of the end of life...
    kvc
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:35 PM, 01/19/2013
    I think it is because they know that a good number of the treatments are fraud but if they said it they would not have any business - hey advertise that you need everything - and with their only real solutiion outside surgery is to push pills which they use for every possible bad feeling you have.
    JL68


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Health care is changing almost before our eyes, and the headlines just scratch the surface. From Obamacare to Medicare to managed care to genomics, the blog reports on and analyzes the laws, government policies, and political trends that are transforming the care we receive and the way we pay for it. The Field Clinic dissects the latest health care news, explaining it and putting it in context.

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Robert FieldRobert I. Field, Ph.D., J.D., M.P.H, professor of law at the Earle Mack School of Law and professor of health management and policy at the School of Public Health at Drexel University. He is the author of Health Care Regulation in America: Complexity, Confrontation and Compromise, a comprehensive overview of the government’s oversight of health care published by Oxford University Press.

Erica Cohen

Erica Cohen, a third-year law student concentrating in health law at Drexel University Earle Mack School of Law. She graduated from the Scripps School of Journalism at Ohio University with a major in online journalism and minors in business and political science. Prior to attending law school, Erica worked for DKMS Americas, the world's largest bone marrow donor center. She currently works as a legal intern in the office of general counsel at a local hospital.

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