Why the Coffee Party doesn't cut it
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Why the Coffee Party doesn't cut it
I was going to write a longer essay on the issues raised here, and probably will at some point, but here's a piece that cuts to the chase on why the "pushing for more civility" thing -- also known as bringing a knife to a gunfight -- doesn't work in American politics. (Plus, I wanted to leave the politics-crazed commentariat a little red meat for the rest of the morning.):
Moderates and liberals are responding to this rising threat with feckless calls for "a return to civility," as if all that's needed to put things right again is a stern talking-to from Miss Manners. Though that couldn't hurt, the sad fact is that we're well past the point where it's just a matter of conservatives behaving like tantrum-throwing spoiled brats (which they are). When a mob is surrounding your house with torches and telling you they intend to burn it down, "civility" really isn't the issue any more.
You hear a lot about the Tea Party -- the Coffee Party, not so much. I think the reasons for that are fairly obvious.
Comments (117)
"These two events are a wake-up call for progressives. They're telling us that it's time to openly confront the fact that conservatives have spent the past 40 years systematically delegitimizing the very idea of constitutional democracy in America." What a stunningly stupid statement by Sara Robinson. Does anyone other than her and Will actually believe that? Can you say "dissent?" When Ds dissent they call themselves "patriotic" but when conservatives dissent they are "delegitimizing" constitutional democracy. What nonsense.— pj katauskas- Good point, pj. Because calling a democratically elected president a "tyrant" is patriotic. LOL!— Talking point sleuth
- In due course, these lunatics will be seen for what they are. Even though the Republican Party is pandering to libertarian extremists and all other form of rightwing, anti-government wackos, fortunately, the loons are a small percentage of the American public. Many conservatives do not have their heads in the sand - and are calling out the extremists. The worst thing that libz can do is overreact and legitimate rightwing extremism. Remember what the Dog Whisperer says about how to handle out of control mutts: you just need to be calm and assertive.— Talking point sleuth
- But it's ok to call Bush a "war criminal?" It's called dissent and it's fine, and so is calling BO a "tyrant." If Ds and libs can't take it, then go to a monastery and stay away from politics.— pj katauskas
- "The worst thing that libz can do is overreact and legitimate rightwing extremism." I absolutely agree with you, TPS.— pj katauskas
Sorry Will but after the bile and constant abuse from the left for years perhaps conservatives are giving it back in kind. Of course the left will cry and whine like a bunch of six year old girls but thats only to be expected.— PAEnglish
Comment removed.- The problem about your claims about civility is that nobody was attacking politician's families and threatening to form a militia to stop the people from following the law. Oh, and Bush is a war criminal, but Obama is not a tyrant. Not a socialist, either. If the right had the intelligence to point out flaws, it would be a different story. They don't, so they resort to the lowest common denominator.— HandNik
- PAE, or they'll cook up some cockamayee, intellectual-sounding slogan like "delegitimizing constitutional democracy." If you break that down it makes no sense. How have conservatives made or attempted to make our democracy illegitimate? Quite the contrary,thoughtful conservatives (like Will and Noonan)routinely stress the limits of constitutional grants of power to the federal government, i.e., they have emphasized the legitimacy of the constitution.— pj katauskas
A few left wing whackos calling George Bush names does not reach the level of a mob screaming for an over throw of our government with a wink and a nod of support from the Republican establishment. It's pure nonsense to believe it is - how many lies do we have to listen to by these Republican whackos - before they are exposed?!?!- Comment removed.
- ---}}} " It's called dissent and it's fine, {{{--- Read the article, pj. The form of "dissent" they describe is not fine - at least not according to the laws of the land. That's why the people in Hutaree are being charged with sedition. But feel free to defend, deny, diminish, and pander.— Talking point sleuth
- Perhaps you liberals could explain what the correct method is for disagreeing with what is happening?— E Plebnista
- ---}}} A few left wing whackos calling George Bush names does not reach the level of a mob screaming for an over throw of our government with a wink and a nod of support from the Republican establishment. {{{--- Bingo!— Talking point sleuth
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- There are more George Bush bashing left wing whackos working for PNI than there are in the entire Tea party movement. What we are overthrowing is that half the people whpo pay no income tax have a vested interest in the other half paying for every damn thing they want. They have no skin in the game, they just want more and more of taxpayers money to subsidize their lifestyle and one way or the other, that is going to end.— tr88
- The Tea Party needs a new name. How about the National Anti-Socialist Party or NASI Party for short? The should all get matching uniforms to show that they are serious. And they will also need a special salute.— pic man
- "When a mob is surrounding your house with torches and telling you they intend to burn it down, "civility" really isn't the issue any more." Did this actualyl happen or is it more elftist hyperbole?— RG
- So, Harry Reid calling President Bush a liar is ok? How about the late John Murtha accussing our troops of murder? How about lefties like Bill Maher hoping VP Cheney's heart stop beating? Hiliary Clinton said it was our patriotic duty to protest against any administration we disagree with. And TPS, there has been no violence at any of the Tea Party protests. We are allowed to demonstrate peacefully. I disagree with death threats to anyone. The American public is tired of the tin ear we have with our elected officials. President Obama and the Congress are not dictators. They are supposed to represent us. Instead, they are doing all they can to amass power and control over every aspect of our lives. Their time is limited, because November is coming...— Bush3
- My goodness, that article was ridiculous and almost devoid of any fact. Virtually no cites or evidence to her accusations, just hysterics. On top of that, on the sidebar to the right, they are actively trying to stop CNN from talking about the deficits. Its a propoganda site, plain and simple.— RG
- 2 points. First, the necessary TPS rule violation ("Mommy they did it first"). Yes, you did do it first, libbies. You accused Bush of being a liar, war criminal, wanted to try to impeach him for somehow "destroying the constitution", issued arrest warrants against Bush/Cheney (see Vermont), had the national media doing a daily Iraq death count (while the national abortion rate killed 2.6 million people during this time in the US). Definition of sedition: "forbids the use of "disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language" about the United States government, its flag, or its armed forces or that caused others to view the American government or its institutions with contempt. " Ummmm, that's pretty much what the loony libs did the entire 8 years Bush was in office. On to point 2: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." Our own Declaration of Independence calls for the overthrow of any government which ceases to protect our rights endowed by our Creator. The question then becomes, has this government sunk to a level where it is likely to start denying us Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness? I don't think it has, and I don't think it is close to that, but could you possibly interpret the debt that it's piling on our children and government control of too much of the business environment as depriving of liberty? Through twisted logic, maybe— IggleFan68
- A few left wing whackos calling George Bush names does not reach the level of a mob screaming for an over throw of our government ...... A few ? , oh c'mon if your going to post take the rose tinted glasses off. The hate towards Bush that is still going on , thank you handnik for your contribution, and its a bloody sight more than a few. The fact is from what I can see the left asked for this fight and now the right is gearing up to give it them they start crying. Me I will stay neutral if there is a civil war , snowballs chance in hell of course I will see which side tps and les pick and go with the other one *G*.— PAEnglish
"while the national abortion rate killed 2.6 million people during this time in the US" - of course 100% of this number is attributed to Democrats?— potus- PJK .. mate I'm still trying to figure out what delegitimizing constitutional democracy actually means. handnik perhaps you can explain , if Bush is a war criminal , how is it there is no anger on the left with Obama ordering an American citizen to be executed without a trial. Now I really couldnt care less wether they off whatsisname in Yemen or not he's a traitor , you reap what you sow , but he is still a US citizen who has rights, I can hear the screams of outrage if it had been Bush. Liberalism the purest form of hypocricy known to man.— PAEnglish
- To E Plebnista's point, I'm guessing bombing Federal building would be a more correct way of disagreeing with what is happening...much like the way Obama's good friend Bill Ayers did it when he was dissenting.— jd587
- "delegitimizing constitutional democracy" Sara woulda had a point, exceptfor the fact that we're a Constitutional Republic. Ignore that, and about a dozen other untruths or factless assertations and she wrote a good article.— RG
- POTUS -- the point was that we saw headlines screaming that 3000 people died in Iraq over the period of 3-4 years, meanwhile 2,369 people were eliminated EVERY DAY in "doctor's offices" and no one reported on it -- especially not the liberal mainstream media. I'm quite sure that of the 865,000 abortions that happen every year, a healthy percentage of that is from "conservative" or Republican folks.— IggleFan68
- ---}}} Virtually no cites or evidence {{{--- LOL! The article was full of links, RG. You know, those strings of text in red? If you click on them, they take you other sources of information. Here's an interesting one you might have followed - one that refers to a rightwing anti-government lunatic that murdered two people in a shooting spree in a Unitarian Universalist church? A quote from the shooter: --snip-- "Know this if nothing else: This was a hate crime. I hate the da-n left-wing liberals. There is a vast left-wing conspiracy in this country & these liberals are working together to attack every decent & honorable institution in the nation, trying to turn this country into a communist state. Shame on them.... "This was a symbolic killing. Who I wanted to kill was every Democrat in the Senate & House, the 100 people in Bernard Goldberg's book. I'd like to kill everyone in the mainstream media. But I know those people were inaccessible to me. I couldn't get to the generals & high ranking officers of the Marxist movement so I went after the foot soldiers, the chickensh-t liberals that vote in these traitorous people. Someone had to get the ball rolling. I volunteered. I hope others do the same. It's the only way we can rid America of this cancerous pestilence." --snip--— Talking point sleuth
"Perhaps you liberals could explain what the correct method is for disagreeing with what is happening?"...how about the voting booth!— Les Ismore- Boy, here's a shocker. Books found on the bookshelves of the rightwing murderer who shot up a UU church because if he couldn't kill politicians, killing the liberals that voted them into office as almost as good: --snip-- The following books were found in Adkisson's home during a police search:[9] * Liberalism is a Mental Disorder by radio talk show host Michael Savage * Let Freedom Ring: Winning the War of Liberty over Liberalism by talk show host Sean Hannity * The O'Reilly Factor: The Good, the Bad, and the Completely Ridiculous in American Life by television talk show host Bill O'Reilly --snip--— Talking point sleuth
- Also, I think it is a FANTASTIC idea to have an armed march on Washington. You see, liberals can't conceive of the fact that people who openly carry weapons can actually respect the law, operate weapons safely and securely, and demonstrate their rights (to protest and carry weapons) in a peaceable manner... How fabulous would it be if 50-100,000 gun carrying folks had a non-violent protest?— IggleFan68
- How dare you Liberals say George Bush is a War Criminal! If it was ok for Hitler to invade Poland in 1939, it was ok for Bush to invade Iraq in 2003. Take that, Liberals!— pic man
- Ok, TPS. I'll play your game. "the fact that conservatives have spent the past 40 years systematically delegitimizing the very idea of constitutional democracy in America." Opinion, not fact. "When they're in power, they mismanage it and defund it." Explain the deficits and increased spending under Bush and Reagan then? "When they're out of power, they refuse to participate in running the country at all" Yes, the Republican congress never worked with Clinton. "We've reached the point where you can't go a week without hearing some prominent right wing leader calling for outright sedition" No citation. "it's just a matter of conservatives behaving like tantrum-throwing spoiled brats (which they are)." Ad homenin. "Everybody on the right is now roundly convinced that the fairly-elected President of the United States isn't even a citizen. He's a Muslim, and thus in treasonous league with terrorists. The main goal of his administration is to turn the country over to the One World Government. He's a socialist. He's a fascist." No citation, and quite a bold claim that everyone on the right believes these things.— RG
- LOL! RG - I guess you don't realize this, but in popular usage of the term, "democracy" means a form of government that derives its power from its citizens. There are some situations today in this country where you see true "democracy," such as where people vote on ballot initiatives or referendums. But I am curious, RG. Which do you hate more: the notion of a true democracy (where your "tyranny of the majority" could result in you having to pay taxes) or the notion of a representative democracy (where you "tyranny of the majority" could result in you having to pay taxes)?— Talking point sleuth
- "Perhaps you liberals could explain what the correct method is for disagreeing with what is happening?"...how about the voting booth! .................. BUSH STOLE THE ELECTION !!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH— PAEnglish
Here's the last line of the article: "They need to choose whose side they're on: America's, or their own." Isn't that pretty much the same comment the left went nuts over when Bush said it? The article eliminates any doubt that liberals are in open war with those who disagree with them.— jmc- "Now, we've advanced the point where not one, but two, 100% gun-toting marches on Washington, D.C., are planned for this coming April 19." Perfectly legal, right to assemble and right to bear arms. Past that, there is no way 100% or attendees will be carrying. "Get used to seeing guns in the streets wherever the law allows" Why is this a problem, again? "accompanied by belligerent sloganeering" Yes, this never happened in antiwar protests. They were the definition of mild mannered. "And some of these groups have already effectively crossed the line, in spirit if not in prosecutable fact." So instead of the law definign whats crossing the line, she's decided to. Gotcha. "or an embarrassing breach of democratic etiquette that polite people should just ignore." Gosh forbid we should ignore people exercising their rights. Better keep an eye on them and get those sedition charges ready. "They've given their newly-expanded corps of flying monkeys permission to brandish their guns in public," Another ad homenin, followed by a false charge. Obama and the Dem Congress passed the bill allowing firearms into public parks. "empowered their militias, promised them glory, and are now telling them explicitly which targets to hit." No cites, no quotes, nothing. Her whole article is based on the premise that the right's leaders are actively stirring this up, yet she can't provide a quote or cite to back it up.— RG
- Wouldn't it be fabulous if 50,000 angry, gun-nut, registered Republican, Timothy McVeigh types marched on Washington? Maybe some of them will bring some exposives with their guns. What could happen?— pic man
- "Which do you hate more: the notion of a true democracy" Good point, the worst it can only result in is more taxes. Not denying rights to women, bannign gay marriages, starting unecessary wars. Typical nitwittery ignoring the substance of my post.— RG
- You people are idiots! The TEA party is not just made up of Repubs, but Dems too, and the MAJORITY are Independents. The TEA party is about taxation issues (Taxed Enough Already), where your $$$ is taken away and given to others who do not contribute. I've had enough personally, so any LIBS out there wanna pay my share in taxes, I'm willing to set it up for you....Where'd ya'll go?— ROWING MAN
- "What could happen?" Odds are, you'd wet your pants.— RG
"Perhaps you liberals could explain what the correct method is for disagreeing with what is happening?" . . . . Heck, be as obnoxious as you please (that's what gets you valuable media attention), but just get your facts straight. Credibility is your biggest problem, and the reason the country doesn't take your message seriously.- RG, the R's did work with Clinton, but that was a long time ago. The last two Congreses, with the R's in the minority have shown a huge spike in the number of filibusters, which is the antithesis of working together. You're welcome to live in your state of denial.— SteveMG
- "RG, the R's did work with Clinton, but that was a long time ago." She cited a 40 year span. Clinton was 15 years ago, hardly a lifetime. The Republicans have had 14 months to work with a Dem prez, thats it.— RG
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- "much like the way Obama's good friend Bill Ayers did it when he was dissenting." or maybe choose Timothy McVeighs method?— Les Ismore
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- "Credibility is your biggest problem, and the reason the country doesn't take your message seriously." This coming from the person who voted for the guy who said he'd close Gitmo, end the Iraq war, have civilian trials for enemy combatants, and would pass a stimulus that would keep ue under 8%.— RG
- "The TEA party is not just made up of Repubs, but Dems too, and the MAJORITY are Independents."...actually no, the majority are Republicans or people who vote Republican. "The group pledges that it is independent of any particular party (indeed 28 percent of Tea Party respondents in the Winston survey labeled their affiliation as such). But on pretty much every defining political or demographic issue, the movement lines up with the GOP or conservative alternatives. Sixty-five percent of Tea Party respondents called themselves "conservative" compared to the 33 percent of all respondents who did the same. Just eight percent of Tea Party respondents said they were "liberal."— Les Ismore
- LOL! RG has been telling us for months that it is completely irrelevant when rightwing hacks like Glenn Beck broadcast unresourced claims about "tyranny" and ad hominems to MILLIONS of viewers every night. Now, he feels it's vitally important to complain that some obscure BLOG POST contains unresourced claims. Even as he chooses to ignore the sources that are linked in the blog post - because they document violent rightwing lunatics. Too funny. Funny enough to require all caps.— Talking point sleuth
- "The TEA party is about taxation issues (Taxed Enough Already)" . . . . . . That's a fair argument for debate. The only problem is that most Americans are seeing tax reductions under the current regime, which makes your point seem silly at best. What else do you have?
- "Now, he feels it's vitally important to complain that some obscure blog post contains unresourced claims." Where did I say it was vitally important? Its a poorly written post with virtually no evidence. I took it apart piece by piece, I notice you arent going to argue those points. Instead you'll make up stuff.— RG
- ---}}} Where did I say it was vitally important? {{{-- OK. Sorry. You made some 5 or 6 posts about the article, two of them detailed accounts of your problems with unsupported claims - because you think it is so unimportant. LOL!— Talking point sleuth
- "This coming from the person who voted for the guy who said he'd close Gitmo, end the Iraq war, have civilian trials for enemy combatants, and would pass a stimulus that would keep ue under 8%." . . . . . . Yet the Tea Party thinks he's pandering to terrorists and taking over the economy. You see their problem now, don't you RG?
- Right. You ".. took it apart piece by piece," without responding at all to any of the numerous links the articles makes to evidence of rightwing violent groups. Because, you know, you just don't care. Too funny.— Talking point sleuth
- "You made some 5 or 6 posts about the article, two of them detailed accounts of your problems with unsupported claims" Those two were indirect response to your claim that there were cites to her claims. All she does is link to articles about militias, most of which are not engaged in sedition. So why would you state that I thought it was vitally important again?— RG
- "Yet the Tea Party thinks he's pandering to terrorists and taking over the economy." Well, he set into motion health care refom that benefits the insurers who he said he was opposed to by forcing people to buy their products. He took over GM and Chrysler with TARP money not specified for that use. He plans to push cap and trade which would hike energy prices.— RG
- ---}}} All she does is link to articles about militias, most of which are not engaged in sedition. {{{--- Classic. So some of the militias she links to are rightwing groups engaged in sedition - and you dismiss their significance because some of the other groups are closely aligned in many respects, but not actually yet proven to be engaged in sedition. And now you followed all of those links (which didn't exist a few minutes ago when you said the article had "virtually no citations") because you just don't care. LOL! This keeps getting better, RG. Why don't you add another post about how irrelevant it is that Fox News airs broadcasts from NEW WORLD ORDER!!!, ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!!! lunatic libertarians or a regular basis? Your selective outrage about unresourced opinions in an obscure blog post - in comparison to your defending, denying, diminishing and pandering to ramapant unsupported opinions put out there by massively influential rightwing media outlets - speaks volumes, RG. Volumes.— Talking point sleuth
- "without responding at all to any of the numerous links the articles makes to evidence of rightwing violent groups" Link to Guardians of Free Republic specifically mentions that they advcated non violent means. "Investigators do not see threats of violence in the group’s message" The link titled "line drawn by terrorism analysts" is a link to an old blog and not a media source. It was written by someone named Sara, perhaps the author of the blog in question. A link to the SPLC showing active militia groups but mentions no violence. "alternative law-enforcement posses" link does not refer any actual violence but rather an elected official reaching out to a milita for help. Only the tiniest shreds of evidence to her claims.— RG
- TPS, I did read the article. Where do you think I got that ludicrous and inaccurate overstatement about conservatives "delegitimizing our constitutional democracy? Read my posts. And I do agree with you that the Hutarees went over the line, just like the Fort Dix 5 (or whatever the number was). None of my posts be remotely interpreted as "defend, deny, diminish, and pander."— pj katauskas
- "So some of the militias she links to are rightwing groups engaged in sedition - and you dismiss their significance because some of the other groups are closely aligned in many respects, but not actually yet proven to be engaged in sedition" Thanks for opposing free speech and the right to a trial by your peers. Yes, TPS in America you need proof of an actual crime before you can throw your opposition in jail.— RG
- "speaks volumes, RG. Volumes." About what? I'd say your hyperbolic hysterics ove the political oppostion speaks volumes of what you feel about free speech, the right to assembly, and political dissent.— RG
- I guess I should go easy on you today for being so completely laughable, RG. I realize that this must be a tough time of the year for you. Tomorrow you're going to have to actually pay for the privileges and benefits you've accrued living in this country. My condolences. LOL!— Talking point sleuth
- In other words, there have been virtually no violent incidents (the Hutaree planned, but never carried through with it)despite idiots like Sara's hysterical claims. Joel's army! The Oath Keepers! Militias oh my! The alst time the left got all this worked up, it was when Will and others were pushing the notion that Bush was gonna invade Iran and call off the elections.— RG
- "I guess I should go easy on you today for being so completely laughable," Claiming its laughable doesnt make it so TPS. I posted my points and you have done nothing to refute them, once again. Are we not a consitutional republic? didn;t Dems pass the law allowing firearms into public places? How can the blogger guarantee that 100% of protests will carry guns? How can she prove that everyone on the right believes Obama is a Marxist?— RG
- ---}}} Thanks for opposing free speech and the right to a trial by your peers. {{{--- LOL! Just to be clear, this is about someone linked to in the article; a convicted murderer: --snip-- During the interview Adkisson stated that he had targeted the church because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country, and that he felt that the Democrats had tied his country's hands in the war on terror and they had ruined every institution in America with the aid of major media outlets. Adkisson made statements that because he could not get to the leaders of the liberal movement that he would then target those that had voted them into office. --snip-- Wow!— Talking point sleuth
- "Tomorrow you're going to have to actually pay for the privileges and benefits you've accrued living in this country." What benefits have I accrued again? Once again, I'd gladly opt out of SS and Medicare, the two biggest parts of the budget. I'd gladly cut back on defense spending, which is the third largest part. The roads have been built decades ago, and I pay tolls and gas taxes on them. Do you mean I'll have to pay for the benefits of giving AIG bonuses? Farm subsidies to giant agras? What benefits am I paying for again?— RG
- "LOL! Just to be clear, this is about someone linked to in the article; a convicted murderer" Just to be clear you once again didge my point. Here's your quote that I replied to: "and you dismiss their significance because some of the other groups are closely aligned in many respects, but not actually yet proven to be engaged in sedition" So you're upset that theres nor proof they're engaged in sedition. Gotcha.— RG
- RG, he could have insisted on a public option but he didn't. And people aren't being forced to buy health insurance (but I like how you call it a "product" as if nobody really needs it anyway). The penalty for non-compliance is a tax penalty, not a trip to the gulags. The bail-outs of GM and Chrysler followed the bail-outs of Wall Street in a teetering economy, and are preceded in history by the S&L bail-outs and Chrysler's first bail-out (during Republican regimes). What's the socialist innovation? I don't see it, and most Americans don't see it. They just see the same old corporate grip on power. The Tea Party sees ghosts of cold wars past.
- LOL! Now let's just be clear about just some of what RG thinks is irrelevant. Of course, we already discussed the murder of two people because they were "liberals." In addition, the first link in the article is to a group arrested for sedition. The second link (in the fourth paragraph) is to a group that the FBI is investigating for sending threatening letters to all the governors in the country, a group that is: --snip-- Actively recruiting across the country in the last few months and promoted on a Texas radio station, the Guardians of the free Republics believe the US government is a corporate imposter put in place by corrupt bankers as part of the New Deal in 1933. --snip-- Here's what the next link went to: --snip-- In Pensacola, Fla., retired FBI agent Ted Gunderson tells a gathering of antigovernment "Patriots" that the federal government has set up 1,000 internment camps across the country and is storing 30,000 guillotines and a half-million caskets in Atlanta. They're there for the day the government finally declares martial law and moves in to round up or kill American dissenters, he says. "They're going to keep track of all of us, folks," Gunderson warns. --snip-- And it goes on and on. GOVERNMENT RUN INTERNMENT CAMPS!1111!!!!11!!! Nothing to be concerned about there, RG. Just keep that head in the sand, and only come up occasionally to deny, diminish, defend, and pander and grab a little air.— Talking point sleuth
- "RG, he could have insisted on a public option but he didn't." Because it would have been even less popular with the public and more difficult to pass. He did campaign on it while knocking the mandate though. "but I like how you call it a "product" as if nobody really needs it anyway" Um yes, by most estimates 14 mil of the unisured choose to not purchase it. If it were so necessary, what did people do before the advent of health insurance? "The bail-outs of GM and Chrysler followed the bail-outs of Wall Street in a teetering economy, and are preceded in history by the S&L bail-outs and Chrysler's first bail-out" The scale of these bailouts isn;t really comparable. F&F alone will cost more than the S&L. And the gov now owns a huge stake in the autos (and will have to pay for their pensions), which is wildly different than lending Iacocca some cash.— RG
- "Of course, we already discussed the murder of two people because they were "liberals."" This isn't sedition, nor was it organized, which was the topic of her article. "FBI is investigating for sending threatening letters to all the governors in the country" Guess you missed this clip from that link: "Investigators do not see threats of violence in the group’s message" But otherwise you're doing a stelaar job at making your point via caps lock sock puppetry.— RG
- ---}}} If it were so necessary, what did people do before the advent of health insurance? {{{--- LOL! RG's one size fits all argument. "If public education were necessary, what did people do before we had public education?" In an agricultural society! "If medicare were necessary, what did people do before medicare?" When poverty rates among elderly people were well over 50%. RG does have a good point, however. "I mean, if police are necessary, what did people do before the government started paying police? A guy with a bigger club came along, hit you over the head, and stole everything you owned, RG.— Talking point sleuth
- Oh, and TPS the Adkisson murders happened before Obama was elected, tying them to current events seems a tad lazy.— RG
- ---}}} This isn't sedition, nor was it organized, which was the topic of her article. {{{--- Wow! A rightwinger murders two people because they were "liberals," but it wasn't "sedition."— Talking point sleuth
- "Wow! A rightwinger murders two people because they were "liberals," but it wasn't "sedition."" Yes, murdering two memebers of his church is proof positive that he was plannign on overthrowing the government. You've gone off the rails again.— RG
- ---}}} Oh, and TPS the Adkisson murders happened before Obama was elected, {{{--- Wow! A rightwinger murders two people because they were liberals - but it isn't relevant today because it happened before Obama was elected. Your pandering gets better and better with each post, RG. I do have to give you credit; you are the most creative panderer I've ever encountered.— Talking point sleuth
- TPS clearly doesnt understand the definition of necessary or necessity. "A guy with a bigger club came along, hit you over the head, and stole everything you owned, RG." Can you source these claims? Any crime rates, etc you'd like to provide or is this another baseless statement?— RG
- "A rightwinger murders two people because they were liberals - but it isn't relevant today" Just let me know what it has to do with sedition.— RG
- ---}}} "Investigators do not see threats of violence in the group’s message" {{{--- OK. Forget that mr. "fiscal conservative" thinks it unimportant that the FBI has to spend money investigating organizations that sent these letters, lets see what the FBI actually thinks, shall we?" --snip-- The bureau said they contain no direct threat but asserted that their implied threat to governors could serve to spark lone-wolf violence. In response, several states increased capitol security Friday. All entrances except the main doors were closed at the Nevada capitol. --snip-- So, the FBI says this kind of activity can spark violence, and in response, our government no doubt increases expenditures on security. But mr. "fiscal conservative" sees no cause for concern. LOL!— Talking point sleuth
- "So, the FBI says this kind of activity can spark violence, and in response, our government no doubt increases expenditures on security." Do you think they have a color coded threat level, ala the DHS?— RG
- Banging the drum for another stimulus. Color me shocked. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36322228/ns/business-businessweekcom/— RG
- ---}}} Just let me know what it has to do with sedition. {{{--- LOL! The man who murdered two liberals spouted rhetoric very much like that you hear on Fox daily. He was obviously inspired by the likes of Goldberg, Hannity, and O'Reilly. Read the article, RG. --snip-- Openly advocating acts of sedition has become the conservatives' main political stock in trade over the past year. (The SPLC offers a strong summary here.) You hear it everywhere from Rush to Glenn to Michelle Malkin to Michelle Bachman. Everybody on the right is now roundly convinced that the fairly-elected President of the United States isn't even a citizen. He's a Muslim, and thus in treasonous league with terrorists. The main goal of his administration is to turn the country over to the One World Government. He's a socialist. He's a fascist. All of these are direct attacks on Obama's fundamental legitimacy and authority to lead the country -- and thus a deliberate incitement to revolt against his administration. --snip-- You're certainly entitled to disagree with the argument, but what is so telling is that you read the article numerous times, "took it apart" in great detail, followed the links (and ignored the links to rightwing violence), and still have to ask what the argument is. Stupor, RG. Stupor. These narratives are coupled with a rising us-versus-them blaming of progressives for all the problems of the country. These days, the screeds sound eerily like free-market fundamentalists freebasing Hitler: they're clouded over with the typical eliminationist vitriol that reduces liberals to subhuman vermin that must be violently exterminated from the body politic in order to restore the virtue of the country. (For those who groove on that sort of thing, there's even a slight dash of anti-Semitism in the mix.) This is dangerous stuff. And in the context of the conservatives' longstanding effort to delegitimize the government, it's also an open invitation to sedition. --snip--— Talking point sleuth
- "The man who murdered two liberals spouted rhetoric very much like that you hear on Fox daily. He was obviously inspired by the likes of Goldberg, Hannity, and O'Reilly." And this fits the definiton of sedition how? "Everybody on the right is now roundly convinced that the fairly-elected President of the United States isn't even a citizen. He's a Muslim, and thus in treasonous league with terrorists. The main goal of his administration is to turn the country over to the One World Government. He's a socialist. He's a fascist." Once again, no cites for this outrageous claim. Yes, everyone on the right beleives all of these things. "And in the context of the conservatives' longstanding effort to delegitimize the government," Conservatives have did nothing but gorw government, Bush added a cabinet level dept in DHs, passed Medicare D, Reagan raised the SS tax and spent money havd over fist. Another ridiculous claim with no hsitoical basis.— RG
- Everyone is going to have an opinion anyway, so why do we waste our time resorting to rigid bipartisan politics? The two-party political system only serves to allow people who don't want to concern themselves with reality just blindly follow whoever they are told to follow. Get your heads out of the sand people and stop wasting so much time with pandering and name-calling. Extreme in either direction is bad for everyone.— JustaGuy
- ---}}} Yes, everyone on the right beleives all of these things. {{{--- I don't agree with the hyperbole in the article either, RG. Obviously, the author paints conservatives/Republicans with far too broad a brush. But that doesn't mean I will simply dismiss the obvious linkage between the over-the-top rhetoric among rightwing pundits and violent rightwing extremist groups. Nor am I willing to be so dismissive of the Republican Party's pandering to extremists. But keep your head in the sand, RG. It does amuse.— Talking point sleuth
- "I don't agree with the hyperbole in the article either, RG. Obviously, the author paints conservatives/Republicans with far too broad a brush." Yet you've spent multiple posts arguing pointlessly in its favor.— RG
- ---}}} And this fits the definiton of sedition how? {{{--- You're certainly entitled to disagree with the argument, but what is so telling is that you read the article numerous times, "took it apart" in great detail, followed the links (and ignored the links to rightwing violence), and still have to ask what the argument is. Stupor, RG. Stupor. Here we go, read it again: --snip-- These narratives are coupled with a rising us-versus-them blaming of progressives for all the problems of the country...This is dangerous stuff. And in the context of the conservatives' longstanding effort to delegitimize the government, it's also an open invitation to sedition. --snip-- Have a good evening, RG.— Talking point sleuth
- "and ignored the links to rightwing violence" There was one example of violence, Adkisson's murders enarly two years ago. The Hutaree were the only example of sedition, and they've yet to be convicted. The rest was conjecture and hyperbole.— RG
- This should be callee Whiningtood— Manny Trillo
- Ummm- you hear more about the tea party because they number in the millions, the coffee party is like 50,000 facebook "friends." Bunch is just an aging hippie liberal who time has passed by.— tjm333126
- TPS -- please stop engaging in wars with RG and started every post with "LOL"...— IggleFan68
- Those constant LOLs remind me of a blog version Jack Nicholson's reprise of The Joker in Batman.— pj katauskas
pj - somehow nothing TPS says or does ever reminds me of Jack Nicholson. When TPS post his LOLs the picture in my head is more of a Michael Jackson wannabe "tee hee hee'ing" around his basement.— bird11- By the way, the rank-and-file members might not have realized this yet, but the national Tea Party org has told its candidates that they must support the Republican Party platform in order to get funding: http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/02/08/the-tea-party-just-another-rnc-adjunct/— Phoenix Woman
- PJ there is a difference between dissent and advocating/endorsing the idea that the POTUS is illegitimate or worse...fascist/socialist or whatever the regressives are calling him today. There is a difference between someone calling Bush a liar and the way Fox, Beck, Limbaugh has institutionalized this type of behavior to a degree that sitting congressmen feel it is okay.— Les Ismore
- Comment removed.
- "someone calling Bush a liar and the way Fox, Beck, Limbaugh has institutionalized this type of behavior to a degree that sitting congressmen feel it is okay." Maddow, Olbermann, Daily Kos, etc didn't institutionalize it on the left? Bush wasn't booed at the SOTU by Dems?— RG
Can't we all just get along?— Ilmare- You know what the pansy conservatives here to when they don't like what you have to say, they click the report abuse button. Wimps. As usual the right doesn't want voices heard, they want to censor information to their liking.— alexpkeatonIV
- Oh and we can all play that childish game.— alexpkeatonIV
- Coffee baggers, can't even come up with a new name. What a waste!— junethe4th
- alexp - yeah, people are always trying to "censor information to their liking." DUH.— bird11
- LesIsMore Didn't the left claim Bush was illegitimate and "stole" Florida in 2000?— Ramon
- Les Ismore, you may have to break it down in much simpler terms, they don't have the capacity to understand big words. Or perhaps frame it as a lie and then they'll get it.— alexpkeatonIV
- Yes, Les, there is a difference as anyone with half a brain can point out. But it's still a form of dissent and, therefore, protected speech. That was my only point, not that I advocate or agree with all dissent, on either side.— pj katauskas
- The Lefty whack jobs were obsessed with George Bush/ Dick Cheney- Everyday Will bUnch had a post about one of them- yet- NOTHING on the debacle known as the Obama admin- nothing on Obama spelling Syracuse wrong on National TV, nothing on the "Corpseman" fiasco, nothing on the constant Bowing to leaders, nothing on the huge debt, nothing on Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi..— Manny Trillo
- Les there is a difference in calling Bush a liar but you state that like that was the worst thing ever said about Bush by protesters. There were actual "Kill Bush" t-shirts for sale on-line (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43779), people carried "Bomb Bush" signs at anti-war protest (as idiotic as pro-lifers killing abortion doctors), and of course you had the Hitler/Bush signs - this stuff isn't new or news. I think it is wrong regardless of who it is directed at and I have agreed with you in the past that civility has left politics. I don't think it has anything to do with Obama or Bush as peopl I just think civility has left the American way of life for the most part - don't know where you live but take public transportation where ever it may be - do you see people offering their seats to the elderly and women?? or do you see people on their cell phones cursing and having completely inappropriate conversations for others to hear??? Civility in politics is a mirror of civility in our society.— bird11
- ---}}} TPS -- please stop engaging in wars with RG and started every post with "LOL"... {{{--- Iggy - that is a completely unfair generalization. Sometimes I end my posts with LOL! LOL!— Talking point sleuth
- OK - I've decided that since our beloved ARts are so upset by my use of LOL!, I will hereby cease to use that term. From here on out, I will use "heh" instead. Heh!— Talking point sleuth
- Uh oh. Looks like batboy has been "disappeared" yet again. What a shame. Watch him come crawling back under a new screenname. He just can't hack it without an opportunity to spew his hatred towards Will at Attytood.— Talking point sleuth
- Heh! What extremist lunatics? --snip-- WASHINGTON - The Army may be forced to court-martial a lieutenant colonel who refused to deploy to Afghanistan because he considers orders from President Barack Obama to be illegal, military officials told NBC News on Tuesday. Army doctor Lt. Col. Terry Lakin believes Obama does not meet the constitutional requirements to be president and commander-in-chief because Lakin believes the president was not born in the United States. A video with statements from Lakin on the subject was released by the right-wing American Patriot Foundation. --snip--— Talking point sleuth
- ---}}} Civility in politics is a mirror of civility in our society. {{{--- birdie does make a good point. We had a much more civil society some 50 years ago - when African Americans were forced to use separate water fountains.— Talking point sleuth
- I wonder if you folks who routinely use "liberal" as a catch-all slur actually have a definition for it. I mean, do you know what it means to be "liberal"? I'm not talking about your favorite list of insults - I mean, do you actually know what the political definition of the term is? Or would that get in the way of your broad-brush categorizations? Personally, I'm conservative in some ways and liberal in others, and yet my head hasn't erupted in civil war - and I can say that because I actually know what the terms mean.— elpel
- bird, I agree, civility is gone in politics. I think it started with Newt Gingrich and his crusade to unseat, somehow, the duly elected President of the United States back in 1994. As far as greater society goes, it has eroded over the years, you are right, and I think that is very sad.— Les Ismore
- The tea partys is not about right or left or repub or dem. Its about getting our country back to the people. We dont work for the gov the gov works for us. The gov is not listening to the people and running up the deficit hiring people with out process and grabbing power that doesnt belong to them. the obama adin and pres bush before has expanded gov beyond where it is suppose to be. When has gov doing it for us really helped— skills
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