That quote in the headline doesn't come from Michael Moore or some commenter on Democratic Underground or Daily Kos.
It comes from a retired major general of the U.S. Army, Antonio Taguba (top). It was Taguba, you may recall, that President Bush asked to investigate the original claims of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib back in 2004.
His comment is in the preface to this report:
WASHINGTON - A Cambridge-based human rights organization said it has found medical evidence supporting the claims of 11 former detainees who were allegedly tortured while in American custody between 2001 and 2004, in what a former top US military investigator said amounts to evidence of war crimes.
Medical evaluations of the former inmates found injuries consistent with the alleged abuse, including the psychological effects of sensory deprivation and forced nudity as well as signs of "severe physical and sexual assault," Physicians for Human Rights said in a report scheduled for release today.
The report also alleges that in four of the cases, American health professionals appeared to have been complicit by denying the detainees medical care and observing the abuse but making no effort to stop it - charges that, if true, represent gross violations of medical ethics.
By the way, none of the 11, detained at Guantanamo or in Afghanistan and Iraq, was ever charged with a crime. What happened to them? The doctors found:
One detainee who said he was repeatedly stabbed in the cheek with a screwdriver had wounds consistent with such treatment, the doctors reported. Another who said his captors sodomized him also had physical signs that supported the allegation, while several others had burns and psychological problems the doctors concluded were consistent with electrical shocks.
The report calls for President Bush to repudiate all forms of torture, for Congress to outlaw 17 interrogation technique that are outlined, and for the U.S. to make reparation payments to abuse victims. All three of those things strike me as doable, even politically feasible in the current climate, with only 24 percent of Americans now giving Bush a positive job rating.
Beyond that, I'd like to see Congress move quickly to censure Bush, Vice President Cheney, and any Cabinet members who were involved in authorizing these unlawful practices -- quickly, as in before a new forward-looking president starts with a clean slate in January. There's never going to be true justice, not the way that American politics works, but censure is a permanent black mark that -- in addition to these concrete remedies -- would be our best attempt at saying "never again."
As a footnote, kudos to retired Gen. Taguba, an American hero.
Posted by Will Bunch @ 10:28 AM
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He's just a disgruntled former employee. Nothing to see here.
"I'd like to see Congress move quickly to censure Bush, Vice President Cheney, and any Cabinet members who were involved in authorizing these unlawful practices" Censure!? If Bush, Cheney or Cabinet members authorized the use of unlawful practices the Congress should do its job and impeach them. That is, unless they are more concerned about presidential partisan politics than they are about providing justice.
It's time for Americans to take back America from the Bush dynasty.
Genius, lets compare your record with Taguba's. You whine all day long about liberals, Taguba has served this country honorably.
"He's just a disgruntled former employee." Politburo, he was commissioned to investigate allegations of abuse in Abu Gharaib, and his initial report in 2004 said there were "Numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees . . . systemic and illegal abuse." The report mentioned a "detainee lying on the wet floor, handcuffed, with an interrogator shoving things up his rectum." This is before he retired from the Army. Yet, he is just a disgruntled employee?
Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Any of that mean anything to any of you? The administration is run by thugs, pretending to be patriots.
The 9-11 people and bin Laudin worked side by side with the CIA for a decade.
The Genius - Typical Liberal? That just shows how narrow minded you really are.
"Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Wake up- they were detained for a reason. God forbid "our neighbors" committed another terrorist attack on our country that could have been prevented from information learned in these prisons. You weak liberals would be complaining that we didn't do enough to prevent the attacks. The parties that are most excited about this administration coming to an end are terrorists, dictators, and liberals. Tell me again who the patriots are?
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"God forbid "our neighbors" committed another terrorist attack on our country that could have been prevented from information learned in these prisons." God forbid you weren't so scared that you were willing to toss away what this country stands for to get a little false security. You do know the definition (and goal) of terrorism, don't you?
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Haditha "massacre"? Any mention yet on this, or are you going to assume that since it doesn't fit your opinions, it is a whitewash.
Lovely site you have.
Hey, Genius, you realize that even "war criminals" get trials and lawyers - right? Nobody's "convicted" of anything yet. Perhaps you should, you know, familiarize yourself with how our government works? It's really a great country, despite the shame that people like you have brought upon it. A great country that will live on long after you and the rest of the marginalized minority are relegated to the dustbin of history.
Ah, the cowardice of the neo class. This country would be an english colony still if louts like Bush and Cheney and Genius lived in colonial times. History shows us men like Adams defending (IN PUBLIC COURT) a british soldier accused of murder. Those men fought a WAR on their own land, and STILL acknowledged the overriding importance of the rule of law. These cowards huddle under their desks like little schoolgirls, trembling, afraid of the turban man! 3000 dies at Pearl Harbor, and still the brave men of those times recognized our moral duty. History will show these despicable disgusting men for what they are...cowards, liars, torturers and cheats. Oh, BTW, 9/11 happened ON BUSH'S WATCH, you dumb SOB's, a YEAR AND A HALF into it. At this point, while I'm sure cowardice is a factor, I'm not sure whether it's stubborness, or stupidity, or both that afflicts the xenophoic idiots in this country that would cause them to urinate away the rights and freedoms thousands dies protecting for these recreants.
"Wake up- they were detained for a reason" - and we don't need to know the reason, ever - right? As long as the government picked up someone, that's good enough for BTH. Sure, it's not good enough for the Founders. Not good enough for America. But, it's good enough for BTH. And that's all that matters. To BTH. To the rest of the world outside the marginalized minority, after centuries of struggle to establish habeaus corpus, that right is worth protecting. For the scared rabble in the marginalized minority? Not so much.
"% deferrments" Cheney? George "TANG" Bush? Alberto Gonzalez and his team of lawyers? They are the ones who crafted the policy on torture and detainment, what service records do they have? Taguba, Zinni, Shinseki, Kerry, etc. are all ex military men who were smeared or releived of duty (sometimes both) for daring to criticize this admin. Maybe you should look up what happened to Taguba.
"before a new forward-looking president starts with a clean slate in January." Finish your thought Bunch... "...and that will be the man I love, the savior of the universe, Barack Obama. I cannot wait to vote for a black man to absolve myself of all my white urban liberal guilt and prove what an amazing human being I am. I AM WILL BUNCH - TOOL EXTRAORDINAIRE!"
"Wake up- they were detained for a reason" Yeah a reason that was soon forgotten. Guess none of you torture fanatics read thsi simple part of the article: "Four of the men were captured in Afghanistan and imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and seven were held in Iraq. ALL WERE RELEASED IN RECENT YEARS, and none was charged with a crime." Riddle me this, how big of a threat could they have been if they were all released?
Capt. Awesome-- I was making fun of the talking point the Bush Admin has used to attempt to discredit people like Richard Clarke, Scott McClellan, and Paul O'Neill. ------ LJL you are absolutely correct.. and not only did Adams defend British soldiers, they were the soldiers on trial for their role in the Boston Massacre, which as we all know was an extremely high-profile and controversial incident.
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First, how do you know these things, if this is even true, were "authorized"? Second, how does anyone know these things weren't done by the inmates to each other? Are you expecting me to believe that a CIA guy or member of the US Armed Forces "sodomized" a prisoner? Maybe in the Will The Shill Bunch world of allowing gays in the military, that might happen... It's so sad that Demokooks like Will The Shill Bunch are so ready to believe anything negative about our military and always take the side of the terrorists against the USA. It's a symptom of their BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome). Anything for a little fix of BushHate. So sad.
If I am understanding all of this correctly, this is not Taguba's report, he merely wrote the preface. The report comes from quote "Physicians for Human Rights, a liberal-leaning nongovernmental organization..". This is by no means an official report. I found the Taguba report online and though I did not read the entire thing word for word, I looked at some important areas, and nowhere that I saw is the administration implicated in facilitating these abuses. The report seems to focus on the problems with a select few at the prison itself. So it's Taguba's perrogative to be a liberal and attach himself to a report from a liberal organization, but all this and fifty cents probably won't get you a bowl of soup. By the way, just about all of the Haditha Marines have had their charges dropped. Paging Mr. Murtha.
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LJL: You must be factophobic. 9/11 happened less than 8 months into the Bush administration, not a year and a half. I could cut you some slack, being your all emotional, but I won't.
CNN.com 6/10/04:
"We did not find any evidence of a policy or a direct order given to these soldiers to conduct what they did. I believe that they did it on their own volition and I believe that they collaborated with several MI [military intelligence] interrogators at the lower level," Taguba said.
That's that.
So by your logic, since we've always done it, its ok? Its just the media's fault for coverign it now? Interesting take on it. Did previous admins have lawyers like J Fredman write their policies for them? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25231839/
regardless of who gave what orders an american fighting mand has the duty to only obey lawful orders. I was an interogator and if some one told me to stick a stick up someones but, I would hnot have done it. The individuals should be held responsible.
Trying to charge Bush and senior admin officials is just stupid. What upsets me most is the folks doing the torture weren't even professional interogators! That should be the first clue that it wasn't authorized.
JMC, I interpreted it that he attached himself to this report because it was investigating the same issue that he was commissioned to look into in 2004, rather than attaching himself to a "liberal-leaning" organization, but whatever. I looked at the Taguba report as well, and I thought he was pretty clear in saying that he felt the buck didn't stop with the MPs who did the abuse (although I don't think Bush was involved in this). Here's a quote from him in an article in the New Yorker: "I didn’t want to see some corporal made into a scapegoat. This could not have happened without people in the upper echelon of the Administration giving signals. I just didn’t see how this was not systemic."
Well .. it sounds like Nancy Drew is torturing Philly fans again.
Who would Jesus torture?
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How does rounding up some Iraqi and Afghani citizens, torturing, then releasing them help win a war (or in this case, an occupation)? The majority who have been tortured are no doubt low level insurgents at best. And I seem to remember reading about outrage over incidents in Vietnam, so to say people sat on their hands is incorrect.
Hard to believe how many people here think it's ok to torture their fellow human beings. To these people: Torture doesn't work except to relieve frustrations of the soldiers doing the torture. Torture has never been shown to be a reliable way of obtaining information. A person being tortured will say ANYTHING to stop the torture. You people make me sick! You deserve to be tortured just to find out what it feels like. It won't be done by me I assure you. Why don't you ask John McCain how it feels...no wait! It's ok with him now that it's not happening to him.
Also, you might want to ask McCain what he thinks of torture, since he lived through it. Did we simply not torture enough to win Vietnam? From what I've read, most experts believe that it produces inaccurate information.
Oh well, if the detainees said it happened to them---then it sure as heck must have happened... LMAO, I'm sure that there is NO WAY that those injuries were either self-inflicted or happened out on the battlefield or even the ... Yep, had to be those torture loving Americans... I can't believe I actually wasted my time reading that "news" story AND commenting on it... This BLOG gets more radical everyday!!!
Yep DelVol, they did this to themsleves. are you f--king kidding me?
http://www.elmundo.es/albumes/2006/02/15/torturas_irak/index.html
That's what I said RG, if the detainees said it happened---it must have happened!! They WOULD NOT lie---it's very Un-Muslim!!!
Or you could just view the pics form Abu Gharib. But that would take brainpower. Instead you'll live off of intellectual welfare and believe everything thats spoonfed to you from thsi admin, cause they are NEVER wrong (WMDs, ties to AQ, Mission Accomplished, insurgency in its last throes, hearts and minds). Hope you feel safe.
"There is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes.",.... So, non citizen terrorists get a trial, the administration, guilty without any trial. Just another day in hate America first land.
Easy there tiger... I've seen the pics there tough guy and I think they're a joke!!! A few look like pics from a frat party and there are some that look like a team of High School cheerleaders who were forced to get into a pyramid and yell go team...!!! Ooohhhh, very torturous looking... Ha,ha,ha!!!
Then you hang out at some wrong frat parties. although it is hilarious that you basically parrotted Rush Limbaughs response. Polly wanna talking point?
It's true, it could have been been any frat house and pledges anywhere in the US... BTW, I actually didn't use that comparison by listening to Rush... Also, it's interesting that you had to have listened to him to know he made that comparison... Won't you lose your Air America listening privileges??? Oh wait, are they even on the air anymore or did they go bankrupt for the 5th time???
Frat parties rarely end in dishonorable discharges, criminal charges, and prison sentences. Keep spinning.
Is this torture story a bad thing? Yes. But why does Will take such delight in reporting it? It's like: see, I told you our country sucks. Will: please move. You're a stinkin' communist. How do you call yourself a journalist when all you write about are liberal viewpoints. You're completely shameless and pathetic.
Hmm. Do you think this Cambridge based human rights organization can tell the difference between a self inflicted screwdriver injury to the face and one delivered from an external source? Or do they say, "What happened, you poor baby?"
So, non citizen terrorists get a trial, the administration, guilty without any trial. Just another day in hate America first land.(posted by 'fake' plebby). It was Gen Taguba informed opinion (and he ought to know, he was there). You want a trial? Ok lets get the impeachment hearings started. It's time these violent-mongering fools paid for their unconstitutional war crimes. They ought to be thrown in jail in disgrace. The fact that they are republicans means nothing. I'd say the same thing if these men were democrats. The kinds of things Bush/Cheney (et al)have done should not be ignored or it will happen over and over again.
You are exactly right James. Why is it, in your opinion, that the Democratic controlled Congress refuses to do its job and impeach these criminals?
"Why is it, in your opinion, that the Democratic controlled Congress refuses to do its job and impeach these criminals?" Thats fairly easy. Its costly and divisive, plus even though Dems control Congress, its the Senate that ultimately votes, needing a 2/3rds majority. They'd need significant crossover from 'Pubs, and that ain't happening.
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So they are willing to abandon their duty to the American people to seek justice simply because of the cost, the conflict that it might engender and the lack of an assured victory?
Actually its more of an assured defeat. Makes much more sense to run out the next 7 months. Bush has been a lame duck for awhile now, so i doubt the public would be thrilled with a lengthily, expensive trial funded by their tax dollars.
I'm shocked SHOCKED I say!!??
Now let me make a set of predictions before I read the comments by the conservatives here. They will Characterize Gen. Taguba as:
1) Anti-American
2) A Liberal blame America first person.
3) A Bush "Hater"
4) A "disgruntled" former employee.
ALL of theses things would seem to be patently false based on TWO facts. 1St the guy made it into the General Officer's corps of the US Military, a group hardly know for harboring bleeding heart hate America first Liberals.
2nd BUSH chose him to investigate the Alleged abuses at Abu Ghraib. Seems unlikely, considering what we know of the value placed on "loyalty" by President Bush, that he would have appointed someone with even a hint of "liberal" about them.
It's funny how Bush and the rest of the 27% who still support him LOVE generals (current crush Gen. Patreaus) and genuflect because these are the real hero's who obviously are loyal to the US, UNTIL one says something that disagrees with their point of view. Hypocritical.
"all of the Bush haters, sat on their hands for the last 20 years doing nothing" --- Yeah, us libz only started to hate torture on January 20, 2001. You got us. What a joke.
"Actually its more of an assured defeat." So, they abdicate their duty and refuse to take a pricipled stand simply because they think they can't win? Shameful. Cowardly. "Makes much more sense to run out the next 7 months." And let WAR CRIMINALS go scott free? These "war criminal" claims have been bandied about for years. The Dems have been in control since '06. Kucinich actually brought impeachment charges to the floor of the House in April '07....and received surprise help from Republicans. You were close to accurate when you said that the public might not like to see impeachment proceedings, but you didn't take it far enough. Even if the public would be against it, our representatives are required to do their duty...even if it means paying a price at public polling places.
Fish in a barrel. This administration made no attempt to really cover up their criminal activity, they only assumed their majorities would hold in Congress. Democrats have majorities, but not the numbers needed to have meaningful impeachment discussions. Go ahead and defend the President- but tell me this: How has that "jaw-boning" the Arabs been working? Bush made that comment in 2000 when harping about the Clinton Gore administration allowing gas prices to near $2.00. Bush just left the Saudis with his tail between his legs and Gas near $5.00 in much of the country. Jaw bone this! Bush is starting to make Carter look tough.
I'm dubious of the fact that torture even works. As Joe said in Reservoir Dogs, "if you torture that guy enough, he'll tell you he started the Chicago Fire."
Interesting there, legatus. Tell us, is it only the Democratic members of Congress who have been derelict in their duties to pursue investigations into possible war crimes? I mean, we know full well that Republicans have a proven track record of pursuing impeachment proceedings when someone in the executive branch violates fundamental American principles as enshrined in the constitution, right? So why haven't they gone after Bush and Cheney?
This Admiral fella... sounds like he should be in line for a job with the Obama administration.
has Will's request for censure been acted upon yet? I didnt get that Fox News Alert
Will has secret dreams about being the next Sy Hersh.
CaptainAwesome
I don't agree with his quote, cause genrals do not give corporals orders, Sgts do. Alot happens at the squad level that most commanding officers do not know about. They do not have the time too. Also sometimes people do take matters into their own hands.
"Here's a quote from him in an article in the New Yorker: "I didn’t want to see some corporal made into a scapegoat. This could not have happened without people in the upper echelon of the Administration giving signals. I just didn’t see how this was not systemic."
No disrespect to the General, but the guy in the trenches could care less what the brass wants. These activities were nothing more than adolecent type behavior, resulting from little people being given too much power. Professional interogators never use torture..the saying "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinigar" applies.
I just personally and professionally really hate that a bunch of MPs made us look like monsters.
Peace!
I personally would like to know what side of the street these folks were on when SAdam was in power. All the tactics, less the ones we have photos of, are typical torture of his regime.
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Isn't that the gay guy from Star Trek? If a little prodding of known terrorists continues to be a deterrent to another attack on our soil, excuse my language but who the F cares?
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"Post of the day!...I..."....Don't sell yourself short like that, Xi Jah. The post of the day was definitely when you explained that history judged FDR "kindly" for interning innocent Japanese. That was today, wasn't it?
Sorry I didn't answer earlier legatus. My work doesn't allow me to post as regularly as I'd like. I think the reason nothing has been done on the impeachment issue is a combination of a few things. THe democrats lack of guts and their lack of a real majority in congress( at least one large enough to get the needed votes). That and the sense I get that most people really don't want their president (even if it's an abject failure like Bush) to be dragged through the mud so close to the end of his term. Personally if I were the democrats I wouldn't worry about the cost. What Bush (et al) has done is inmoral in the least and criminal at worst. Too many good soldiers have died over the lies that led us into this war. Something must be done or this country will experience the same thing not too far down the road.
There is a very simple reason there is no impeachment. President Cheney.
The tactic used by Bunch here is that if someone from a particular group speaks against that group's activities, his or her point is without question more valid or in some way discredits the group's activities. In that case, Republicans should all kowtow to Gen. Wesley Clark's views since he was a higher ranking general than Taguba. And I think all of the Democrats should kowtow to Joe Lieberman's views because he was a Democratic senator. Analyses and especially validation of opinion require more substance than this.
and why haven't the citizens of the United States insisted that Bush, Cheney and their motley creu be charged with said war crimes...cause we're too busy trying to keep a float...gas, mortages, groceries..etc..
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Typical display of what a Republican sycophant considers accountability. You said that FDR (and Lincoln) suspended habeas corpus, and was judged kindly by history. I explained to you that he was judged kindly by history, because despite that policy which is roundly criticized, he contributed much to the country through his decisive policies. Unlike your hero, Bush, whose most decisive policy was to quit golf (after a few extra rounds). Nice try, though.
I have not had a chance to read the report, but I did hear one of the authors speak at length on what they found (heard on Rachel Maddow's show). The thing that really struck me was the physical evidence that some of these 11 (who were all let go without ever being charged with a crime) were suspended by their arms for hours at a time--the equivalent of the rack. Now that is torture in anybody's book. The three sodomized with broom handles can also rightly claim torture. Of course, none of the Abu Graib photos show prisoners being suspended or sodomized, but physical evidence uncovered by physicians is actually more compelling than photos--see any photoshopped example of a picture that no longer is worth 1,000 words.
"Tell us, is it only the Democratic members of Congress who have been derelict in their duties to pursue investigations into possible war crimes?" No, not only Democrats. But the facts are that Kucinich introduced articles of impeachment against Cheney, with plans to do the same against Bush. A motion to table the resolution, which would have ended debate on the matter, was brought by House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer soon after Rep. Kucinich took to the floor to read from his proposed articles of impeachment. However, House Republicans voted AGAINST a measure to kill the impeachment resolution.
"There is a very simple reason there is no impeachment. President Cheney." Which is exactly the reason that Kucinich went after Cheney first. Asked why he hadn't gone after Bush with impeachment articles, Kucinich called it a practical problem: If Bush is removed from office, then Cheney is put in his place and removing him would require two impeachments. He did, however, call his effort to impeach Cheney a starting point.
"However, House Republicans voted AGAINST a measure to kill the impeachment resolution...." Right. And they did so why? Because they felt it was to their partisan advantage to do so. Nothing, whatsoever, with their ethics on the relevant issues. Careful there, legatus, one might think you're a sycophant with that line of argumentation.
The military didn't ask Taguba, and he didn't tell.
"And they did so why? Because they felt it was to their partisan advantage to do so. Nothing, whatsoever, with their ethics on the relevant issues." So your argument boils down to....the Democrats didn't do the right thing at all, but the Republicans did the right thing for the wrong reasons?
Like to ask the people here a question: Is lying about having sex with an intern worse than either lying about or deciding to ignore intelligence about the existance of WMDs in Iraq and therefore getting over 4000 soldiers killed and many more wounded? Clinton was impeached for the former. Surely an investigation should be done into the latter. What do you think?
Lying ~under oath~ is definitely worse than the perception of some that someone may have lied and an investigation may or may not prove that such lying took place. Having said that, I have no problem with an investigation taking place. Let's be honest here...all of this war criminal stuff is a bunch of hooey that the left is putting out in order to strengthen their chances with the electorate. Once the election is over and a new President is in office, no one will care about Bush or Cheney any longer. It was the same toward the end of Clinton's term, when the right was saying that they were going to press charges on him for perjury and other offenses once he leaves office. Of course, once he left office no one cared to do so.
Does anyone really believe that any member of the Bush administration will be charged with war crimes in 2009 or later?
No, legaus, some Dems acted based on their beliefs (either that the Bush administration did or didn't violate funamental American principles). Some put partian politics above princple. The Republicans who supported going after Bush did so only because they felt it was to their partisan advantage to do so. Obviously, they didn't go after Bush on the principles involved. See, legatus, I have no trouble in finding fault with Dems when they deserve it. Funny, though, that you seem only interested in criticizing Dems and discounting fraudlulent behavior by Republicans. Whay is that?
I seriously doubt that is the rationale for any "war criminal" claims. The claims have been around since 2002.. some people just like to make them. They certainly don't give the left any electoral advantage (quite the opposite, if you ask me).
"I have no trouble in finding fault with Dems when they deserve it." You didn't find any fault with Dems....you said they acted on their beliefs. The fact of the matter is that while SOME Dems and SOME Repubs acted on their beliefs, others voted based on party interests. Because it was only liberal activists who were pushing for impeachment, Democratic congressional leaders worried that such an effort would put off independents. Thus, these leaders were plain in their rejection of impeachment due to their concern for the party.
"Funny, though, that you seem only interested in criticizing Dems and discounting fraudlulent behavior by Republicans. Whay is that?" I did find fault with Repubs (at 8:47 on this thread) when I replied to your question that it was not only Democrats who were derelict in their duties concerning impeachment.
"You didn't find any fault with Dems....you said they acted on their beliefs." Actually you did say that some Dems votes were based on partisan politics.....sorry, my bad.
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Will Bunch, a senior writer at the Philadelphia Daily News, blogs about his obsessions, including national and local politics and world affairs, the media, pop music, the Philadelphia Phillies, soccer and other sports, not necessarily in that order.
Will Bunch, a senior writer at the Philadelphia Daily News, blogs about his obsessions, including national and local politics and world affairs, the media, pop music, the Philadelphia Phillies, soccer and other sports, not necessarily in that order.
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