UPDATED: The real reason they hope ACORN fails
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UPDATED: The real reason they hope ACORN fails
There's been a lot of hoopla about secret hidden-camera videos of low-level employees of the anti-poverty group ACORN lately -- some of them quite embarrassing. I haven't seen any video yet from "real reporters" James O'Keefe or Hannah Giles of an ACORN employee who works in the agency's Charlotte, N.C., office by the name of Hector Vaca. And don't hold your breath waiting for Vaca to appear on the Fox News Channel anytime soon, because he doesn't fit the story line.
Vaca was one of eight ACORN employees in North Carolina who was just laid off because of funding problems -- problems closely related to the recent exposes by the right-wing media. His work had nothing to do with what millions of folks with the time and the money to be sitting on a couch watching TV at 5 p.m. when Glenn Beck comes around think ACORN mainly does, i.e., advising garishly dressed prostitutes and pimps. Vaca was actually helping folks in Charlotte who are battling the worst economic crisis in our lifetime and fighting for them to stay in their houses, a project so "radical" that Citigroup and Bank of America (just the kind of folks you'd expect to partner with ACORN in its vast "socialist" conspiracy) are backing it. It is work that is so important that Vaca is continuing to do it now, even without a paycheck:
In Charlotte, head organizer Hector Vaca spent time this week driving through neighborhoods, visiting homeowners who are struggling with their mortgage payments. The program, in partnership with Citi, aims to offer free advice to residents who could be facing foreclosure. Vaca, 35, said he hands out fliers and will offer his cell phone, too, to homeowners who want to call for free assistance right away.
Vaca, who said he grew up poor as the child of an immigrant, has been an ACORN organizer for three years."I love my job," he said. "I get to help people who have never been able to get the help they need."
This, in a (pardon the awful pun), nutshell, is what the ACORN scandal is really all about. Forget the videos, forget the "pimp." The reason that Hector Vaca loves what he does is the reason that Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and their dittoheads hate what Hector Vaca does. He is helping people who were have never been able to get the help they need...before he pulled up to their driveway.
Even in a media world where 24 hours of daily cable blather is so rarely tethered to the real-world concerns of Americans, the ACORN saga stands out as a story that everyone is talking about but no one is stepping back to even try and comprehend or place into any kind of rational perspective. The conservative dwellers of Glennbeckistan who've been flooding newsrooms across America -- including here at the Daily News -- with calls complaining that we're not covering the ACORN story know next to nothing about the anti-poverty group other than their belief that it single-handedly elected Barack Obama as the 44th president of the United States (it didn't) and that it receives billions of dollars in taxpayer money (it doesn't).
At the same time, I would encourage the handful of fellow progressives who see the story solely as a Fox News witch hunt to acknowledge this part of the bigger picture: That ACORN is a large non-profit that is very poorly run, and in need of some major reform. It would be good, in a way, if that's what this story were really about -- making things work better. But conservatives don't want to reform ACORN, nor do they want another, better-run outfit to come along and do some of the things it does -- helping the urban poor find better housing or increasing voter registration. They want to destroy ACORN and the things it does. Period.
I'm not not going to bog this down with a long history of ACORN, which grew out of 1960s' activism working with welfare recipients in the nation's battered cities -- you can learn a little more about it here. The group has had a number of successes in areas that matter in American life, including fair-housing issues, voter registration (it was a key backer of the Motor Voter law), helping Hurricane Katrina victims and even fighting for Vietnam veterans during a time when that was not a popular issue. So why is it poorly run? Well, the videos now in heavy rotation on Fox show that some of its lower level workers are either under-trained or unethical or both, while ACORN has also been rocked by wrongdoing at the top of the organization. So have a number of well-known non-profits that aren't under regular assault from the right-wing media -- but that still doesn't make it right.
Beyond that, there is evidence of major structural flaws within ACORN -- generally, a group that has both an advocacy side and a political side that supports candidates is a recipe for trouble. Then there is the serial wrongdoing by workers that ACORN hired to do voter registration, the episodes that are regularly described as a "voter fraud scandal." But no actual voter fraud -- that is, people who were unlawfully registered casting real ballots and influencing the outcome of election (as happened in this case, for example) -- took place. In fact, it was ACORN itself that was defrauded by hiring workers who tried to get paid extra money by signing fake names like "Mickey Mouse," which may explain why it was ACORN officials who reported these crimes to the authorities. The significance of this scandal -- which is really more like embezzlement than voter fraud -- points back to the notion that ACORN needs to be better run...a lot better.
Yet this reality -- that ACORN is an established group with worthy goals and some success but also poor management -- is not what's driving the story. The folks who are spearheading this investigation of ACORN -- O'Keefe, Giles, Beck, and all the others -- aren't reporting this story because they want corrupt employees and bad managers weeded out, so that the taxpayers are getting the best return on the relatively minuscule amount of money -- just $53 million over the last 15 years -- that it's received from the feds. Nor will the "fair and balanced" network ever tell you that other ACORN employees turned away the bogus pimp and prostitute -- most notably right here in Philadelphia, where employees called the cops on O'Keefe -- or bother to explain the real work of ACORN, as done by decent people like Hector Vaca.
The real reason they are after ACORN is that they don't like its core mission -- siding with beleaguered homeowners over banks, and trying to register inner-city residents to vote at the same rates as the suburbanites who've dominated American politics since the 1980s. Taking down the group's mission of urban empowerment won't strengthen America, just the Republican Party. And you don't need a Ph.D. in social work or journalism to figure this out, since O'Keefe has made it clear that ACORN's success -- and not its corruption -- is what prompted him to launch his investigation. Here's what he told the Washington Post:
UPDATE: Corrected from earlier version. See this note for an explanation.
"Politicians are getting elected single-handedly due to this organization," he said. "No one was holding this organization accountable. No one in the media is putting pressure on them. We wanted to do a stunt and see what we could find."
But O'Keefe didn't go after the voter registration unit of ACORN. Maybe that's because real investigative journalism is hard work, but more likely it's because powerful people like U.S. Attorneys, who didn't even have to dress up like pimps because they have subpoena power, already tried that angle and didn't find one single bogus vote cast. Instead, the two young filmmakers and the deep-pocketed FNC are taking down ACORN through the back door, and if what has already happened in North Carolina is any indication, they will succeed.
You know, this is all so much like the "debate" over health care. No one disagrees that the medical system here is a mess, but one party, the Republicans, offers no serious plan whatsoever -- gambling for the raw political edge they might gain by a liberal-centrist failure to pass any bill. Likewise, there is no interest here whatsoever in ending housing discrimination, stopping predatory lending, or coming as close as possible to 100 percent participation on Election Day -- the kindof things that all Americans should be inclined to support, regardless of party or ideology.
James O'Keefe's America is one where powerful banks can continue to walk all over the working poor, and where demoralized urbanites don't bother to vote. The right-wing's attitude toward fighting poverty is exactly the same as Rush Limbaugh's attitude toward Barack Obama before he had yet served one day in the White House.
They want them to fail.
Comments (244)
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A question for the anti-ACORN boyz. Which is more desirable? (1) ACORN registers a million minority and poor voters, leading to hundreds of thousands of legitimate votes, along with many fraudulently registered voters but very, very few fraudulent votes cast, or (2) Those same million voters are not registered by ACORN - meaning the elimination of those very, very few fraudulent votes (and many more fraudulent registrations) and also significantly less participation by minorities and poor people in our democracy?— Talking point sleuth- Oh, and btw, Norton: --snip-- The study “makes unmistakably clear” that “the government’s failure to prosecute or convict more than a handful of people for voter fraud isn’t for lack of trying.” Since 2002, the Justice Department’s Ballot Access and Voting Integrity Initiative has, as Gonzales put it, “made enforcement of election fraud and corruption offenses a top priority.” And yet between October 2002 and September 2005, just 38 cases were brought nationally, and of those, 14 ended in dismissals or acquittals, 11 in guilty pleas, and 13 in convictions. Though a Justice Department manual on election crime states that these cases “may present an easier means of obtaining convictions than do other forms of public corruption,” federal attorneys have failed to rack up those convictions, for the simple reason that incidents of fraud have been few and far between. --snip--— Talking point sleuth
- Apparently, Norton, you have a little difficulty distinguishing between voter registration fraud and voter fraud. Voter registration fraud is a problem and ACORN should be held accountable for utilizing a voter registration process that is prone to fraudulent registrations. On the other hand, voter fraud is very, very, rare - the reason being that someone would be risking significant jail time, not for personal gain, but simply to promote a particular candidate in a very insignificant manner (how much difference does one vote make?) Voter can and has been tracked, and it is very, very rare. --snip-- STUDY: Feds Prosecuted Only 38 Cases Of Voter Fraud Between 2002-05, 14 Were Thrown Out --snip-- Assuming that the numbers of voter registration in the article you quote are accurate - it is highly probable that it led to not one fraudulently cast vote. Is that really such a difficult a concept to understand?— Talking point sleuth
- Since no state or federal agencies keep stats on voter fraud (talk about being beholden to the boss), I thought I would just let the NY Daily News contibute to the conversation.— Norton
- Nuff said Monday, Aug. 23, 2004 N.Y. Daily News Unearths 'Stunning' Democrat Vote Fraud WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - About 46,000 people, most of them Democrats, are illegally registered to vote in New York City and in Florida, the liberal New York Daily News reported today. "The finding is even more stunning given the pivotal role Florida played in the 2000 presidential election, when a margin there of 537 votes tipped a victory to George W. Bush." And the investigation doesn't include other states or even the suburbs of New York. The pro-Kerry paper said that efforts to prevent such fraud "rely mostly on the honor system." That's a serious flaw when people who have no honor are involved.— Norton
- Well, so many bigoted statements by Will, so little time....First off, not everybody in the "urban areas" is poor, Democrat or liberal. Second, ACORN targets voters to register because of their race. Using tax dollars to swing elections based on race is unconstitutional and immoral. Since when is poverty or skin color an impediment to registering to vote such that special help is needed. Funny how those nonEnglish speaking immigrants before WWII figured out how to vote, earn a living and raise kids within a well parented home, without an race baiting enterprise to see them along.— valentsgrif
- Here's a question for you, lefty. How many people registered by ACORN have committed voter fraud? So far, I've seen a grand total of one documented. That's right. One. And that one was someone that was an immigrant who didn't understand the voting requirements and actually had residences in each of the locations where he voted. One, lefty, one. Coulter has quite probably voted fraudulently twice. Two is twice as much as one, lefty. Look, voter registration fraud is a problem. Absolutely, ACORN, if it's other problems (which seem real) aren't significant enough to cause it to close shop, should stop its practices that lead to voter registration fraud. But that doesn't negate the fact that the ACORN voter registration fraud is being demagogged by right wingers out of a partisan interest to promote the Republican Party. They are deliberately conflating it with voter fraud to question the legitimacy of Obama's presidency - even though there is (virtually) no proven voter fraud that ties back to ACORN. And even though it is been proven the Republican Party has attempted to use accusations of voter fraud to go after Democrats - even when the Republican politicians were told by justice department officials that there was insufficient evidence to press a case. If the ACORN issue wasn't simply a partisan tool by the right wing, then "conservatives" would be willing to discuss ACORN in the full context of what the seriousness of the crimes committed actually were and what positive is that ACORN has accomplished versus the negatives that it has caused. Why are right wingers so reluctant to do that, lefty?— Talking point sleuth
- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33041360/ns/business-washington_post/— Talking point sleuth
- A nice article for the misinformed among us who still believe that primary responsibility for the mortgage crisis can be laid at the feet of Fannie and Freddy, and not where it belongs - at the feet of the players in the financial sector that leveraged themselves 35 to 1 to market, and then buy, bad dept.— Talking point sleuth
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- You know what, I've doubted Glenn Beck in the past. I have to admit I didn't like the guy much. Until I saw this clip. I've completely changed in my perspective now. Now I see why so many "conservatives" consider him a leading luminary. Just watch this clip, and you'll see how he's the only one who's revealing such important information about our president. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKZ1qbDyKOM— Talking point sleuth
- Thoughtful, respectful, insightful analysis, Will. Thanks.— ronnie polaneczky
- Barney Frank was against ACORN until he was for ACORN and then Against ACORN......ONE word for ACORN CRIMINALS— Philly-d-kidder
- Have you ever been on the El between 15th st and 52nd and Listen to the ACORN help a brotha make a Dollah routine... the Script is the same all trying to make a person register a false address so they can meet a quota!!— Philly-d-kidder
- this is a democratic congress and a democratic president. who defunded ACORN? the rot in our own house is as bad as the rot in theirs Will and you need to point that out more often.— amdela
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RICO ACORN! I smell Impeachment!— AuH20- 95.8% of the stories about ACORN’s alleged involvement in voter fraud failed to provide deeper context, especially efforts by Republican Party officials to use allegations of “voter fraud” to dampen voting by low‐income and minority Americans, including the firing of U.S. Attorneys who refused to cooperate with the politicization of voter fraud accusations – firings that ultimately led to the resignation of U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales“— Talking point sleuth
- 85.1% of the stories about ACORN’s alleged involvement in voter fraud failed to note that ACORN was acting to stop incidents of registration problems by its (mostly temporary) employees when it became aware of these problems— Talking point sleuth
- 80.3% of the stories about ACORN’s alleged involvement in voter fraud failed to mention that ACORN was reporting registration irregularities to authorities, as required to do by law”— Talking point sleuth
- 82.8% of the stories about ACORN’s alleged involvement in voter fraud failed to mention that actual voter fraud is very rare (only 17.2% did mention it)— Talking point sleuth
- In case anyone doubt's that there is a vast left wing media conspiracy - here is the proof. Proof that the MSM is hiding the facts about Obama's birth! Wow! The scales have fallen from my eyes. I have now seen the truth. People, please watch this and you will see too, why Obama "is not legally the president." Finally, here is all the evidence you need to see how "conservatives" and Limbaugh have been right all along. Thanks to god that someone has finally revealed the truth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_jZdkCFAUw&feature=player_embedded#t=233— Talking point sleuth
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Anyone who can support and defend a lawless organization such as ACORN is a disgrace and should be ignored.— ocjones- ACORN has failed.....it just doesn't compute in Bunch's liberal bubble.— Kaiser Sosa
- How does this guy have a Blog?— rgreen72
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Jerome before posting maybe you should actually read some of the posts here the most obnoxious always come from the left , who then of course piously accuse the right of being racist , blah blah blah .— PAEnglish- LOL at all the right wing freaks in this forum. You people are a frigging disgrace.— Jerome99RIP
- ---}}} "It's just like the Hitler Youth all over again," said Concannon, 26, a former National Guardsman. "I think it could be considered child abuse." {{{--- Yeah. Just like Hitler Youth. Child abuse. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES - THE HITLER YOUTH ARE COMING. SAVE THE WOMEN AND CHILDRE.... OH. SAVE THE WOMEN.— Talking point sleuth
tax tax tax and redistribute. if they protest send the cops to shoot shoot shoot.- ---}}} Something I doubt most of the more hateful posters like yourself do. {{{--- Thanks for demonstrating your disdain for vitriol, Norton.— Talking point sleuth
- TPS - The hard part is getting beyond your vitriol and finding a coherent point in your posts. Gotta go, heading out to a United Way Day of Caring event. You know - giving back to the community. I actually back up my talk with actions. Something I doubt most of the more hateful posters like yourself do.— Norton
- You know no matter how bad things seem somedays , you can always thank the good lord TPS isnt your neigbour .— PAEnglish
- ---}}} Wake up and smell the coffee {{{--- There you go, Norton. Now that wasn't so hard, was it?— Talking point sleuth
- TPS - Personal insults do little to further the conversation, but if that's what floats your boat, go for it. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. If Acorn has been cooking the books on voter sign ups and giving advice on how to dodge taxes and promote teenage prostitution, how can you be so indignant? Wake up and smell the coffee - hold the excrement.— Norton
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- ---}}} They crapped the bed, now you have to deal with the stench. So hold your nose and live with it. {{{--- I ask once again. What is up with this obsession that "conservatives" have with excrement? Can anyone explain that to me?— Talking point sleuth
- ---}}} Also, why should ANY organization be signing up voters? That is asking for trouble.{{{--- Yeah, that's a good point, Ed. Sure ACORN has signed up some 1.5 million poor and/or minority voters. No doubt, some percentage of those were fraudulent registrations. Say 100,000 were fraudulent registrations. And probably some who signed up didn't vote. Say 200,000 didn't vote. So, that would mean that ACORN helped some 1,200,000 poor and/or minority citizens cast their votes in our Democratic process. Now, why would ANYBODY want that to happen? LOL! You guys are hilarious.— Talking point sleuth
- Not sure why the left is so ticked off by the Acorn scandal. Yes.. I said scandal, because there is no sugar coating this one. Acorn has been playing fast and loose with the rules for years and everyone other than the right and Fox has been conveniently ignoring it. Now that Acorn has been thrust into a negative spotlight, so many folks are screaming racism or simply saying Acorn’s “good works” outweigh everything else. Sorry folks, you can’t have it both ways. They crapped the bed, now you have to deal with the stench. So hold your nose and live with it.— Norton
- Ah, ACORN. Co-conspirator with CitiBank. ACORN in San Diego recruited illegal aliens for home loans from Citi. ACORN got new members and Citi got protection from ACORN protests. Nothing wrong with that, right? Also, why should ANY organization be signing up voters? That is asking for trouble. Voting is a right of all citizens. It does not require anything more than going ahead and doing it. And then there is the taxpayer funds part of it. When we pay taxes, it is EXCLUSIVELY for operating the government; nothing else. It is not for gifts to anyone.— Falls Ed
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Acorn is a criminal organization. Period.— georgel- Will...you are a piece of work. How long did it take you to punch out this article? 5 minutes?— zjimmyjcb
- Will...you are a piece of work. How long did it take you to punch out this article? 5 minutes?— zjimmyjcb
- Wow! Here's what a loon, that is so much of a conservative luminary that Fox News has him interviewed on one of their major shows, has to say. This is the logical extension of the anti-government rhetoric that the Republican Party is embracing to enlarge its base. He who lays down with dogs, RG. --snip-- Rockwell explained the thrust of the idea in a 1990 Liberty essay entitled "The Case for Paleo-Libertarianism." To Rockwell, the LP was a "party of the stoned," a halfway house for libertines that had to be "de-loused." To grow, the movement had to embrace older conservative values. "State-enforced segregation," Rockwell wrote, "was wrong, but so is State-enforced integration. State-enforced segregation was not wrong because separateness is wrong, however. Wishing to associate with members of one's own race, nationality, religion, class, sex, or even political party is a natural and normal human impulse." --snip-- http://www.reason.com/news/show/124426.html— Talking point sleuth
- ---}}} It is quite easy and I cannot see why ACORN or any other outfit needs to get involved. {{{--- Good point, Mark. Because there's no upside to ACORN having registered some 1.5 million voters - most of them poor and/or minorities. I mean why would anyone think that our country is better off with those 1.5 million voters?— Talking point sleuth
- As an NRA member, I was quite amused with the comparison to ACORN. ACORN gets government bucks to register voters, which is something that people can do on their own. I have had to register several times over the years when moving to a different municipality. It is quite easy and I cannot see why ACORN or any other outfit needs to get involved.— Mark Glaeser
The world was fien before ACORN." Lets see. ACORN was formed in 1970? A few years before was the Civil Rights Act and just a few years before that was Jim Crowe Law in the south and similar injustice in the north? Yer right, RG, before ACORN the world WAS fine...for white men.— Hamlet- Seriously, they are advocating secession. I kid you not. Here's another link, in case you're adverse to reading LGF. Unbelievable. The lunatics are positively coming out of the woodwork. Keep ignoring and downplaying it, RG. http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=011008&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=9911819&referralPlaylistId=f52a51671863b92315961052a736ef0a187b26ce— Talking point sleuth
- Nice!! A Fox luminary advocating secession. Go to comment #285 to listen. Pass the popcorn. http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/34753_I_Win!/comments/#ctop— Talking point sleuth
- THIS GUY should be waterboarded until his skin comes off! NYC Terror Attack Was Set for Sept. 11 Zazi Transferred to New York Updated: Friday, 25 Sep 2009, 5:42 PM EDT Published : Friday, 25 Sep 2009, 2:04 PM EDT By AP/MyFox DENVER - An Afghan immigrant wanted to carry out a massive New York City terror attack involving hydrogen peroxide bombs on commuter trains to coincide with the Sept. 11 anniversary before federal authorities foiled the plan, a U.S. prosecutor said Friday.— WriteWinger
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"Burn your bras, or whatever left wing men do when huddled together in the basement." . . . . Wouldn't you like to know, wink wink nudge nudge.- Comment removed.
- RG, at least we've established that some accountability to the public is associated with 501 status. It's ironic that it would be the condition of not committing a crime, considering how the NRA has advocated for the gun rights of ex-cons.
- Like ACORN, I'm anti-poverty. Unlike ACORN, however, I'm also anti-sex slavery and anti-tax evasion. Unfortunately, legitimate 501(c)(3)'s will suffer because of ACORN's actions.— A Friend
- "Amazing. I can't count how many right-wing pundits, let alone politicians, have been demanding they lose their 501 status." Well, maybe you could provide links. I can only find two, one from a State Sen in GA and another from a Louisiana Rep. As for pundits, they have no power to end ACORNs tax exempt status. However, the IRS does state that status can be removed if convicted of a crime.— RG
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- Will, just out of cuirousity, what has your party done for the poor? You got them dependent on the government by starting the Welfare program. ACORN is full of corruption, and needs to be rooted out. I would also encourage you to read the stimulus bill where ACORN was supposed to receive 8 billion tax payer dollars borrowed from China. I read you column just for the lunacy you spew week in and week out. Your party has control of the White House and Congress, yet you blame Republicans for stalling heathcare? Also, I notice we are still in Iraq, and now Obama is pondering a surge in Afganistan. The Dems have been horribly ineffective, excpet for running up record debt! Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, and watch the Republicans take over in 2010.— Bush3
- "ACORN isn't losing its 501 status, just its direct federal funding. Apples to oranges." . . . . Amazing. I can't count how many right-wing pundits, let alone politicians, have been demanding they lose their 501 status. Wasn't that one of John McCain's pet peeves? Fruit salad.
- Oh, I wish I had the time to read all the comments, they are usually better than the blog. But I do love the defense of ACORN by old spineless Bunch. I wonder if his campaign for the poor defenseless urbannites who are, obviously in Will's opinion, too stupid to want to vote or too stupid to be able to read mortage paperwork. No they are too incompetent to understand those crazy rules and regulations so Will feels he has to support people that help the stupid. I love how Will and people that support organizations like ACORN do this to feel better about themselves because they feel, deep down, that inner city residents will always need the help of liberals like Bunch. How racist and elitist is that? I, and many conservatives like me, believe that everyone has the capability to understand the expectations and realities of buying a house and are aware if we can afford it at the time of purchase. We also understand what the voting process is and never needed it explained to us. I believe that people, regardless of where they live, are smart enough to figure this out. And if they can't they are destined to be the bottom rung of society. The world needs ditch diggers. The Constitution states: Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of Happiness. It does not guarantee it. But Will, and others like him, would rather just hand it out. Because handouts to the dregs of society have always been successful.— phillyjeffsr
- "So the NRA's not accountable to anyone in order to receive its tax-exempt privileges from "We the People"?" ACORN isn't losing its 501 status, just its direct federal funding. Apples to oranges.— RG
- READ WILL BUNCH'S LIE---------------------"Though O'Keefe described himself as a progressive radical, not a conservative, he said he targeted ACORN for the same reasons that the political right does: its massive voter registration drives that turn out poor African Americans and Latinos against Republicans."------------ FALSE-— Manny Trillo
- READ WILL BUNCH'S LIE---------------------"Though O'Keefe described himself as a progressive radical, not a conservative, he said he targeted ACORN for the same reasons that the political right does: its massive voter registration drives that turn out poor African Americans and Latinos against Republicans."------------ FALSE-— Manny Trillo
- "Still can't address the issue, huh?" . . . . I thought the issue was accountability. O'Keefe said so, anyway. So the NRA's not accountable to anyone in order to receive its tax-exempt privileges from "We the People"?
- "Who wrote which clip, RG?" Will wrote this "At the same time, I would encourage the handful of fellow progressives who see the story solely as a Fox News witch hunt to acknowledge this part of the bigger picture: That ACORN is a large non-profit that is very poorly run, and in need of some major reform." and then followed it up with the rest of the post, impugning the motives of those who oppose ACORN. Even intimating that they hate it because it helps minorities. Once again, he misses the train in calling for ACORN to reform itself or show accountability, regardless of all the warnign signs, and instead jumps on the bandwagon on bashing those who dared point out their misdeeds. I guess Will and others solution is to keep thowing OPM at it until it gets better since its mission statement justifies the means.— RG
- Who wrote which clip, RG?— Talking point sleuth
- I read little to disagree with in that article, RG. Particularly this quote, which highlights something quite interesting: --snip-- Well yes, you'd have to be an idiot not to recognize the right wing's glee over ACORN's latest troubles and not to believe that many of its critics would refrain from attacking a conservative organization implicated in similar conduct. --snip-- Also, interesting, is this quote: --snip-- So what. ACORN's lack of integrity is not excused or ameliorated by the advantages Republicans derive from it. --snip-- hmmmm. Sounds a bit familiar, actually: --snip-- At the same time, I would encourage the handful of fellow progressives who see the story solely as a Fox News witch hunt to acknowledge this part of the bigger picture: That ACORN is a large non-profit that is very poorly run, and in need of some major reform. --snip-- Which, in turn, is very similar to this quote: --snip-- ACORN's progressive supporters, not to its mention leaders, should begin by taking responsibility for its decline. --snip--— Talking point sleuth
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- "Uh, beeps, I suppose you wouldn't mind then if the NRA lost its 501(c)(3) status, and your contributions are no longer deductible." According to wiki, its a 501(c)4, which allows it to lobby. Any dues used for lobbying are nondeductible (at least thats what I got out of this). http://www.t-tlaw.com/lr-05.htm— RG
- Uh, beeps, I suppose you wouldn't mind then if the NRA lost its 501(c)(3) status, and your contributions are no longer deductible. After all, apples and oranges.
- This article does a good job of summing up the fallacies in ACORN defenders tactics. http://correspondents.theatlantic.com/wendy_kaminer/2009/09/acorn_a_cautionary_tale.php— RG
- ---}}} "Politicians are getting elected single-handedly due to this organization," {{{--- This is hilarious. O' Keefe makes a completely unsubsstantiated statement - about an organization that many people are on both sides claiming is extremely important, and in 164 posts, not one "conservative" expresses one iota of concern about O'Keefe's demaggoging. ) Keefe is being interviewed left and right about the ACORN issue. And not one "conservative" at Attytood seems to think that he should be held accountable. Boy, there's a shock.— Talking point sleuth
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- "The reporter shouldn't opine about the person's motives." . . . Who knows O'Keefe's motives? The reporter was simply describing the stated reason. My guess is that the motive is fortune and fame.
- "don't you think that should create concern that some of their other GOTV and registration tactics might be troublesome as well?" . . . .So you'd think, db. But that still begs Will's question. If that;'s the concern, why target an Acorn office that has nothing to do with voter registration drives? Or at least create a scam that involves fraudulent voter registration? Is it not sensational enough to get on FoxNews?
- "Would the reporter be wrong in prefacing my quote with the statement that I'm targeting the NRA for the same reasons that the Left does?" Talk about lazy. Yes, that reporter would be wrong. The reporter shouldn't opine about the person's motives. Otherwise, make it an op-ed.— RG
- "You can't just call something wrong without conditions." .................. LOL, if only every debate were that easy to conclude, eh db? Such lazy minds today. Is it Friday?
- "I wish Will would give the same consideration to the health insurance companies" . . . . When the health insurance companies summarily fire the employees who were found to have turned away claims for no good reason, instead of promoting them?
- "Suppose I told a reporter that politicians are getting elected single-handedly by the National Rifle Assoc, and the media ought to hold it accountable. Would the reporter be wrong in prefacing my quote with the statement that I'm targeting the NRA for the same reasons that the Left does? It's massive propaganda machine that turns out poor rural white Americans against the Democrats?" Thanks for answering my question. You can't just call something wrong without conditions.— db_cooper
- "Posted by legatus: 'I detest neocons and think they're the lowest form of life.' This tolerance minute was brought to you by the Democratic Party." jmc, I did not post that garbage, I replied to it. longshanks said, "I'm a Dem....I detest neocons and think they're the lowest form of life. But I too wish Acorn would disappear, it is a rotten organization much like today's GOP." To which I replied, "Finally...a Dem with half of a brain." The reason that I said he had "half a brain" was because he said that he wishes that Acorn would disappear....the rest of his comment makes it clear that he is missing the other half of his brain.— legatus
- "Can't the left EVER just say 'that was wrong' without conditions? Or does the end justify the means every time" . . . Suppose I told a reporter that politicians are getting elected single-handedly by the National Rifle Assoc, and the media ought to hold it accountable. Would the reporter be wrong in prefacing my quote with the statement that I'm targeting the NRA for the same reasons that the Left does? It's massive propaganda machine that turns out poor rural white Americans against the Democrats?
- ANOTHER CUT AND RUN COWARDLY DEMOCRAT L I A R, obama that is. He is such a small man and big liar. Report: Obama told Petraeus and McChrystal to "scrub" assessments Thu, 09/24/2009 - 3:20pm As the Obama administration wrestles with how to deal with the worsening military and political situation in Afghanistan and the worsening level of public support for the war at home, new details are emerging about how the president is thinking about his decision on whether to send more U.S. troops to the region. According to Howard "Buck" McKeon, R-CA, the new top Republican on the House Armed Services Committee, Obama told Central Command head Gen. David Petraeus and Afghanistan commander Gen. Stanley McChrystal to "scrub" their assessments because he "wasn't inclined to send troops over there." So much for concentrating on the "real location of the terrorists who planned and carried out the attack on the World Trade Center." ANOTHER Democrat capitulation.— WriteWinger
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Thinking more about it, I see Will's point. Alot of people are satisfied with ACORN. Sure there are some problems, but why ditch the whole thing when a more focused approach is warranted. I wish Will would give the same consideration to the health insurance companies, who I'm sure help infinitely more people than ACORN.— jmc- SHOVE IT WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE!!!!!!!! ACORN Funded Political, For-Profit Efforts, Data Show Actions Were Before Leadership Change By Carol D. Leonnig Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, September 25, 2009 Documents released by a Senate Republican on Thursday show that leaders of the ACORN community organizing network transferred several million dollars in charitable and government money meant for the poor to arms of the group that have political and sometimes profit-making missions. ACORN's tax-exempt groups and allied organizations, long a target of conservative ire, used more than half their charitable and public money in 2006 to pay other ACORN affiliates, according to an analysis by the tax staff of Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa). On Thursday, Grassley called the transactions a "big shell game" and said ACORN donors may be surprised by how the liberal group known for helping the poor obtain housing and health care was spending their money. He urged the Internal Revenue Service to take a closer look. THIS IS THE REALLY REAL REASON THEY WANT ACORN TO FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!— WriteWinger
- "O'Keefe's actual words indicate concern about the political success of ACORN voter drives, and ACORN voter drives generally mobilize poor urban minorities to vote against Republican candidates" And one other point - given that ACORN is under investigation for a variety of reasons - fraudulent voter registration attempts, taxes, poor accounting, shell corporations, commingling of funds - don't you think that should create concern that some of their other GOTV and registration tactics might be troublesome as well? Given that some neighborhoods in Philly have more registered voters than residents, don't you think there could be some funny business going on? Or, once again, is all that OK because it aids Dem candidates?— db_cooper
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- "Will doesn't seek to emphasize the supposed inference of racism,"...Then why has it not been corrected? Pretty convenient mistake to omit in this age of computers and the internet.— E Plebnista
- " I agree it was a poorly written sentence by which you could draw that conclusion." It was a lot more than that, given that it has been used by the left to bash O'Keefe (and the GOP) as racists for days now, even after the correction by the WashPost. Can't the left EVER just say 'that was wrong' without conditions? Or does the end justify the means every time?— db_cooper
- "I suppose by O'Keefe's standard, the NRA should be held accountable by the media as well.' Is the NRA federally funded?— RG
- Every time I hear about "voter fraud" I am reminded how my vote for Bruce Marks was fraudulently negated by Bill Stinson and his cronies around a kitchen table full of absentee ballots...and I'm still disgusted.— Lancer248
- "How about the insinuation that O'Keefe mentioned minorities as a reason he went after ACORN?" . . . . I agree it was a poorly written sentence by which you could draw that conclusion. However, the facts aren't in dispute - O'Keefe's actual words indicate concern about the political success of ACORN voter drives, and ACORN voter drives generally mobilize poor urban minorities to vote against Republican candidates. Will doesn't seek to emphasize the supposed inference of racism, but rather the political motive, and no one is disputing the actual quote in bold type. I suppose by O'Keefe's standard, the NRA should be held accountable by the media as well.
- Every time I hear about "voter fraud" I am reminded how my vote for Bruce Marks was fraudulently negated by Bill Stinson and his cronies around a kitchen table full of absentee ballots...and I'm still disgusted.— Lancer248
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- MSL where does it say I'm on the right I stated threaten them with a bar of soap too *L* they ARE lowlife trash and deserve all they get . How would you feel if that rabble turned up in your neighbourhood trashed your car , or your property ? grow up for crying out loud .— PAEnglish
- More on the missing temp data. http://open.salon.com//blog/gordon_wagner/2009/08/14/global_warming_oops_we_lost_the_data— RG
- Posted by legatus: "I detest neocons and think they're the lowest form of life." This tolerance minute was brought to you by the Democratic Party.— jmc
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- Next time I see Joseph Goebbels on the history channel, I'll think of Will.— E Plebnista
- "You mean, ACORNs voter drives really don't turn out large numbers of blacks and latinos against GOP candidates?" How about the insinuation that O'Keefe mentioned minorities as a reason he went after ACORN? It was bogus enough that the Wash Post issued a retraction two days after the claim was made. And one of the authors has a long, documented history of such tactics. Nah, it's fake but accurate. That seems to be good enough for most liberals nowadays.— db_cooper
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- Willy, fire yourself, you can't even write the written sentence "He is helping people who were have never been able to get the help they need...before he pulled up to their driveway" yea right, I'll listen to you, ..philly .com is almost over.
- "either that or use live rounds, the low life scum deserve all they get" . . . . . Thanx PA for reinforcing the stereotype of a typical embittered right winger. Now look at all the work you've made for poor Legatus and Bryanc to reassure us libs that it's all in our heads.
- The data from a key study referenced by the IPCC in their 4th report may have been fudged or has gone missing. http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTBiMTRlMDQxNzEyMmRhZjU3ZmYzODI5MGY4ZWI5OWM=&w=MA==— RG
- Why omit the correction to OKeefes quote, will?......You mean, ACORNs voter drives really don't turn out large numbers of blacks and latinos against GOP candidates?
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- "The Republican Party assembled a national majority by winning over Southern white voters; Southern white voters are racist; therefore, the GOP is racist." .................. That about sums it up. I was beginning to worry bryanc that you didn't know why the Dixiecrats went for the GOP.
- Why omit the correction to OKeefes quote, will?... Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda— E Plebnista
- I see the hippies , anachists , and other far left rabble are causing trouble in Pittsburg again . Why are the police bothering with pepper spray ? just threaten them with a bar of soap that will disperse them far quicker , either that or use live rounds, the low life scum deserve all they get .— PAEnglish
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- bryanc- You are making my point! Knowing all the horrible things the Democrat party stood for, (well documented by you) the modern Republicans found it strategically sound to reach out to the people still mired in that disgusting behavior. The modern Republican Party is not the Party of Lincoln. The Southern Strategy is still in play today, TODAY!!!— pagoda
- "Oh. And one last thing." Oh great, you created another strawman independant of the topics on hand. All to futher bash your opponents and marginalize their opposition.— RG
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- Oh. And one last thing. Remember how "conservatives" whined breathlessly about how they were going to blame Obama's refusal to endorse torture for any terrorist attacks that might occur against Americans? In fact, they attributed a lack of attacks on the U.S. after 9/11 to the use of torture. Interesting that somehow, they are failing to use the same logic to attribute a LACK of the use of torture for the recent prevention of potential attacks. Logical consistency and Republican toadies. Never the twain shall meet.— Talking point sleuth
- Well, well: If Barack Obama had to stand for reelection today he'd win by as much as he did last year, if not more. He leads Mike Huckabee, Mitt Romney, Jeb Bush, and Sarah Palin by anywhere from 7-15 points in hypothetical 2012 contests. http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_National_9241023.pdf— CurryFavor
- if you're so worried about them losing their funding, why don't you turn over your paycheck to them, will? you make alot more than you are worth anyway!— randall man
- The bottom line is, RG, that other systems allow those with a lot of money to purchase high end insurance, even as they provide universal insurance, even as they bring a better return on the dollar spent. I happen to believe that in this country we're capable of further improving on those systems. I see no reason to continue with a system that contains both greater inequities and less of a return on the dollar. Alright, I'm outta here. Get back to me on the NBER study, RG.— Talking point sleuth
- "But yeah, the major point of his post is that the "outrage" over ACORN is largely politically motivated.' Because the motivation doesnt matter. the facts do, the org is a federally funded, poorly run group with a vague mission statement and little accountability. Its no wonder abuse set in. Heck, I'd love it if o'Keefe went after the military industrial complex, although righties would certainly question his motivation.— RG
- http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/09/024567.php Nothing to fear but Fears himself We have not heard anything from Washington Post reporters Darryl Fears and Carol Leonnig in response to "Sliming James O'Keefe: A case study." I think it's fair to conclude that Fears and Leonnig have no quote from O'Keefe to support their imputation of racial motives to him, and that what the Post has done to O'Keefe is disgusting. John Rosenberg of the Discriminations site writes to point out that he has frequently commented on Fears. Rosenberg cites several posts inspired by Fears. "Sliming ACORN's exposers is not his first transgression," Rosenberg writes. "Each one of these is an individual post...responding to a different outrage in one of his Post articles. I've never tried to amalgamate them into one post specifically about Fears. Or, for that matter, about the Post: the fact that these articles keep coming obviously says as much, or more, about the Post as Fears himself:" Below are Rosenberg's posts in reverse chronological order: Fears no evil / More Fears mongering / Fears some evil / More Fears / At the Washington Post, more Fears mongering / At the Washington Post, Fears for minorities as victims / At the Washington Post, Fears for affirmative action / Downside of diversity, cont. / Need I add that I have borrowed the heading of this post from Rosenberg's message to me?— db_cooper
- ---}}} Duck the actual questions, {{{--- In the post read, Will acknowledged major problems with how the organization is run, and major problems with how the organization is organized, and major problems with how organizations like ACORN overlap with political entities. But yeah, the major point of his post is that the "outrage" over ACORN is largely politically motivated. Interesting, RG, that you have nothing to say on that issue. Eh?— Talking point sleuth
- "I'm a Dem....I detest neocons and think they're the lowest form of life. But I too wish Acorn would disappear, it is a rotten organization much like today's GOP." Finally...a Dem with half of a brain.— legatus
- "There are tons of studies that support the notion that there are inequities in our system." There are inequities in life, tPS. They cannot be legislated away, nor do they call for collectivism at the cost of individualism. Housing is unequal, and like healthcare, it isnt a right. However, legal defense is unequal (see OJ), yet it is a right. Should we clamor for public defenders for all, or subsidies for those who can't afford a legal dream team?— RG
- RG: "He kills the messenger and leaves the message alone. Not to mention the strawman he builds in the last two paragraphs. Heck, he dares say he knows what O'keefes vision of America is." And the irony is, that strawman in turn is based on a bogus quote from the Wash Post that has since been corrected. As the saying goes, a lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its pants on. Especially when the lie fits into the existing Dem talking points.— db_cooper
- ---}}} Your mind shouldn't determine what people should get if they are willing to pay for it.{{{--- Fair enough, RG. But in so saying, you are also saying that you are willing to keep the current system no matter what inequities exist due to income levels of the citizenry. I have a problem with that. And the fact that numerous studies show that we receive less of a return on every dollar spent on health care than in other countries (with universal coverage) - it also suggests that you're willing to accept a more wasteful system because at the high end, it works well for those who can afford to absorb that waste. I have a problem with that also.— Talking point sleuth
- "s that the argument, RG? Or is the argument about Will's post - the point of which is that the "outrage" from the right is politically based" Wills whole psot is the same technique you use. Duck the actual questions, notice he doesnt mention why ACORN should continue to be funded, and impugn the motives of those who dare criticize them. He kills the messenger and leaves the message alone. Not to mention the strawman he builds in the last two paragraphs. Heck, he dares say he knows what O'keefes vision of America is.— RG
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- ---}}} Which means government rationing, which is what a large part of the crticism is about. {{{--- And a legitimate criticism, RG. But you know what the return argument is - we already have rationing, which, unless you have enough money to purchase a high-end insurance, is done on the basis of profit first, and medical need second. Many citizens can't afford such health insurance, and so the current system reflects inequities. There are tons of studies that support the notion that there are inequities in our system. In fact, I just posted an extensive one. Read it, RG. Tell me how and why you disagree with their conclusions.— Talking point sleuth
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- ---}}} Wow, now we're resorting to ad hominem attacks instead of arguing why ACORN should continue to receive federal funding. {{{--- Where did anyone post that they think that ACORN should continue to receive federal funding? Is that the argument, RG? Or is the argument about Will's post - the point of which is that the "outrage" from the right is politically based? And do tell, have the ad hominems in this thread been lobbed from only one side of the debate?— Talking point sleuth
- "Increasing efficiencies will mean cutting services." Which means government rationing, which is what a large part of the crticism is about. "In my mind, wasteful services can be cut." Your mind shouldn't determine what people should get if they are willing to pay for it.— RG
- "great post will, and the shrieks from the gang of baboons that comment here prove your point." Wow, now we're resorting to ad hominem attacks instead of arguing why ACORN should continue to receive federal funding.— RG
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- brendan and TSP - as always, your posts are spot on and have elicited the usual and now too, too predictable crying and whining and other easy reactions from the righties who know nothing except what Rush and Fox tell them. I’ve noticed that others who used to be “regular posters” have dropped out (finally out of disgust of the righties wrongness, viciousness and plain stupidity most likely), but the fact they you are still here to set the idiots right, is what I appreciate! Thanks!— LorettaL
- So, the US taxpayers will pay for Kennedy's funeral and Democrat fairy tale commercial. WHat a country, eh Will???? - The city of Boston spent $431,000 on overtime costs to deploy 629 police officers, 48 firefighters, and a raft of other workers for the funeral of Senator Edward M. Kennedy, according to information released to the Globe yesterday under a public records request. WHY CAN'T THEY PAY FOR THEIR OWN FREAKIN' FUNERAL OF THIS MURDERER????— WriteWinger
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- ---}}} ignore the fact that the proposed plans will either add to the deficit, limit choice, or set prices, which could cause doctors to flee. {{{--- Never ignored that, RG. Not one bit. In fact, I've continuously stated that I think it's a problem. What I've said in response is that unless you cut services, the price for healthcare goes on to the backs of the American public either way - and that I believe there are reasons to believe that the return on the dollar spent in our system is less than the return on the dollar in countries with universal health insurance. I've posted information in support of that contention. I've also said that I don't think that in the long run either system will be significantly more or less of a burden to the taxpayer because of the demagogging that is coming from the anti-reform camp, which demagogues any real attempt to cut cost - which can only come, in the long run, by denial of services at some level. Increasing efficiencies will mean cutting services. In my mind, wasteful services can be cut. There is no free lunch. I've also provided information that substantiates inequities in our current system that are rooted in race and class. My position is that your preference for the system, as it is, implies a tacit acceptance of the discrepancies in our system - even if it doesn't apply that you are in favor of such inequities. The fact that you would focus on the issue of providing health care to illegal immigrants without providing an answer as to how you'd deal with the situation doesn't mean that I'm claiming the moral high ground. It simply means that I'm trying to get you to deal with the full ramifications of your position.— Talking point sleuth
- Hey what's another $20,000,000.00 among friends, right? WASHINGTON - A large military spending bill moving through Congress contains a little-noticed outlay for Boston that has nothing to do with national defense: $20 million for an educational institute honoring late Senator Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts. WHAT A JOKE AND WASTE OF MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!— WriteWinger
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- great post will, and the shrieks from the gang of baboons that comment here prove your point. they sure don't like it when you point out they're nothing but a bunch of racists and elitists, do they?— brendancalling
- DELETE THIS BLOG ENTRY NOW!!!!!!!!!! DB COOPER is correct------------ In a Sept. 19 story about the community organizing group ACORN, The Associated Press, based on an account in The Washington Post, erroneously quoted a conservative journalist saying he targeted the organization for hidden-camera videos because its voter-registration drives bring minority voters to the polls. The Washington Post on Tuesday printed a correction about the quote. Although ACORN registers people mostly from those groups, the maker of the videos, James E. O'Keefe, did not specifically mention minorities, the newspaper said.— Manny Trillo
- CAN ANYONE IMAGINE IF--------------The republicans had an "Acorn type group" and this happened to republicans?-----------------How about if GEORGE BUSH had a class full of young students made to sing a song about him?????------------------Can you hear the FAR LEFT??? ------"This is just like Germany- the republicans are Naz*'s."-------------It would be unbearable.— Manny Trillo
- To the Philly.com moderators: Will's post is largely based on a claim in the Washington Post that has been retracted. This thread should either be removed or re-written immediately. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hJCvUQQROuKkivgK9r4pF7FTxGTAD9ASIC600 Correction: ACORN's Troubles By The Associated Press (AP) – 2 days ago WASHINGTON — In a Sept. 19 story about the community organizing group ACORN, The Associated Press, based on an account in The Washington Post, erroneously quoted a conservative journalist saying he targeted the organization for hidden-camera videos because its voter-registration drives bring minority voters to the polls. The Washington Post on Tuesday printed a correction about the quote. Although ACORN registers people mostly from those groups, the maker of the videos, James E. O'Keefe, did not specifically mention minorities, the newspaper said.— db_cooper
- Another corrupt Democrat Party pay for play SCANDAL: where were you on this one Wilbur? - By JOSH MITCHELL and STEPHEN POWER WASHINGTON -- A tiny car company backed by former Vice President Al Gore has just gotten a $529 million U.S. government loan to help build a hybrid sports car in Finland that will sell for about $89,000. The award this week to California startup Fisker Automotive Inc. follows a $465 million government loan to Tesla Motors Inc., purveyors of a $109,000 British-built electric Roadster. Tesla, like Fisker, is a California startup focusing on high-end hybrids, with a number of celebrity endorsements that is backed by investors that have contributed to Democratic campaigns. Donation to Democrats gets you a big US GOV'T loan. PAY FOR PLAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!— WriteWinger
- Here's the problem, RG - I actually posted why I felt that the study you posted (a working paper that hadn't been through peer review) was full of holes. On the other side, you didn't offer any substantive response to the NBER publication. Here, knock yourself out, RG. http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:fUkoynTTnTwJ:www.dartmouth.edu/~jskinner/documents/garber_skinner_jep_2008.pdf+is+american+health+care+uniquely+inefficient&hl=en&gl=us— Talking point sleuth
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- "I've responded in kind.' Your responses tend to trend along the lines of "the private sector does it too" and ignore the fact that the proposed plans will either add to the deficit, limit choice, or set prices, which could cause doctors to flee. You also like to procliam the moral high ground in stating "thats how I roll" to explain your benevolent compassion for the less fortunate. However, I'm not sure government coericon ever has the moral high ground.— RG
- bryanc- You really don't want to get into history lessons about the political parties prior to the Civil Rights era. As you know, the modern Republicans embraced and actively pursued the racist Democrats / Dixiecrats and ultimately took over the South. Care to debate that?— pagoda
- http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hJCvUQQROuKkivgK9r4pF7FTxGTAD9ASIC600 Correction: ACORN's Troubles By The Associated Press (AP) – 2 days ago WASHINGTON — In a Sept. 19 story about the community organizing group ACORN, The Associated Press, based on an account in The Washington Post, erroneously quoted a conservative journalist saying he targeted the organization for hidden-camera videos because its voter-registration drives bring minority voters to the polls. The Washington Post on Tuesday printed a correction about the quote. Although ACORN registers people mostly from those groups, the maker of the videos, James E. O'Keefe, did not specifically mention minorities, the newspaper said. ------------ Will, you need pull this post, as the core of your thesis is based on a bogus quote.— db_cooper
- Ahh, Kennedy's replacement, Paul kirk, is a former drug industry lobbyist. I'm sure the bill will have the best intentions. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/Paul-Kirk_-senator-from-Pharma-8292060-61220782.html— RG
- When you've engaged me in debate on the issues, RG, I've responded in kind. At the same time, I also enjoy highlighting the loons that post here, as well as the loons that inhabit the extremist wings of the Republican Party. The two aren't mutually exclusive. If you don't want to distance yourself from those loons, that share some of your rhetoric, that's your prerogative. And it's my prerogative to express my surprise that you continually do so. But for you to claim that I haven't engaged you in debate on the factual elements of the issue is patently false. We've gone back and forth on the meat of the issue, and exchanged facts and statistcs, and you know it.— Talking point sleuth
- "And taht is classic, RG. You posted a "study," which was actually just a working paper by some students," You refuted it with an abstract from an NBER study. My point was that you can always find an opposing "expert" on any topic.— RG
- ---}}} you can't necessarily refute or ignore them, {{{--- And taht is classic, RG. You posted a "study," which was actually just a working paper by some students, that was absolutely full of holes, and passed it off as some kind of legitimate verification of the argument that the relatively life expectancy of the U.S. isn't a negative function of our healthcare system. I responded with criticism of the study, and you didn't even bother to respond. The other bizarre aspect of this debate, RG, is that you repeatedly make stuff up just like that. I have refuted the majority of the points you've brought up about the healthcare policy debate - we've gone back and forth on it in depth on many threads. Why are you making stuff up, RG?— Talking point sleuth
- TPS, your whole time on these boards is spent pointing out the "loons" in an attmept to undermine the legitmate opposition to the admins agenda. You consistently focus on Beck and hand made posters instead of presenting, explainign, and defending your views in a logical matter. In your reply to me, you once again bring out the witchdoctor signs. Desperation is a bad cologne.— RG
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- "Though O'Keefe described himself as a progressive radical, not a conservative, he said he targeted ACORN for the same reasons that the political right does: its massive voter registration drives that turn out poor African Americans and Latinos against Republicans. " Will, the Wash Post RETRACTED that claim - days ago. Are you so inept that you didn't see that? This thread should be pulled as potentially libelous and in violation of many journalist ethical codes.— db_cooper
- "Rather than report on allegations of tax evasion and vote fraud and other wrongdoings by ACORN, you attempt a whitewash." . . . . By the same token, when will we see O'Keefe's report on all the good work Acorn workers do, not to mention reporting on all the upstanding workers who refused to go along with the charade?
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- ---}}} ... you are simply trying to impugn on my motives {{{--- LOL! You keep saying that, RG, but it simply isn't true. Repeatedly, I've said that I think that there is completely legitimate opposition to Obama's policies (for example). I haven't "impugned [your] motives" one iota. I have repeatedly said, however, that I'm stunned that you refuse to distance yourself from the loons. Oh, and yeah, saying that someone carrying a "witchdoctor" poster of Obama is a racist, or saying that someone who calls Obama the anticrhist is real "arbitrary." In every thread, I've respectfully debated the policies with you even as I express my surprise that you refuse do denounce the nutbars that share some of your rhetoric. LOL!— Talking point sleuth
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- "If he lost his job because of funding being cut to ACORN then the ACORN employees in those videos are to blame." . . . . The problem is whether that is an injustice or not. Dio you think it's fair? If so, then why not take responsibility for your position, and explain why.
- You've really gone around the bend, Will. Rather than report on allegations of tax evasion and vote fraud and other wrongdoings by ACORN, you attempt a whitewash. In other words, GOP corruption, bad. Dem corruption, OK. You truly have become little more than a partisan hack.— db_cooper
- "It's the conservatives fault."----- Cut and Paste 3000 times.— Manny Trillo
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- Legatus - Please take a second and READ my comment again. I said I DON'T have a problem with ACORN being de-funded. If an organization has ANY ties to what can be considered partisan political behavior, I don't believe it should receive federal funding - the point I was making is that for some reason commenters like pjsz see spending money trying to help people as "throwing money at a problem", but never consider the costs, both financially and in human lives of aggressive foreign policy that rarely improves the lives of the American people. And pjsz - "What was the margin in popular vote this last election? 2%?" - Surprisingly enough, YOU'RE wrong again. 7.2%.— JLB
- ---}}} They themsleves dont help the needy, {{{--- The Democratic Party pushed through civil rights reform. They were responsible for programs like Head Start, which not only help the needy, they also bring a positive return on EVERY DOLLAR THEY SPEND. I'm no fan of the Democratic Party, but those kinds of over-generalizations only cloud the picture, RG.— Talking point sleuth
- "That's exactly why I'm stunned that you steadfastly refuse to denounce those loons, and repeatedly diminish the degree to which they infest the anti-government camp" This is an intellectually vapid argument, you are simply trying to impugn on my motives and have me play defense isntead of debating the actual points I bring up. you can't necessarily refute or ignore them, so its easier to constantly tell me to denounce another persons viewpoints. Sorry, you won't get me to waste my time. billat, the tea partiers, et al are entitled to their opinion. If you deem yourself to be the arbiter of what is loony or not, so be it.— RG
- I'm not saying you're guilty of anything, RG. I'm pointing out that there is a lot of cross-over, on certain issues, between the rhetoric of our buddy there and the rhetoric you've been putting out. I know that you're not a dope like the aforementioned lunatic. That's exactly why I'm stunned that you steadfastly refuse to denounce those loons, and repeatedly diminish the degree to which they infest the anti-government camp. They stain the cause of good "conservatives" RG, and yet you refuse to even acknowledge that. A lot of those in opposition to Obama on the very same issues that you oppose him on denounce the demagoggary of loons like Beck and the extremist elements of the tea parties for exactly that reason - yet you refuse to do so. Noticed yourself scratching recently?— Talking point sleuth
- "The Democratic party is a lot like ACORN; there are some bad apples, but overall, they are more likely than their competition to help the needy." Pagoda, here's the flaw. They themsleves dont help the needy, they coerce others to do so via legislation (and in turn buy votes from these blocs). Thats why people disagree with them, plain and simple.— RG
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- "If my choice is between simply throwing money at a problem versus throwing money AND American soldiers' lives at a problem, I'll take just throwing money any day of the week." Of course, as that is NOT the choice, it is a red herring. If throwing money at (what you consider to be) corrupt organizations like "the military, Blackwater/Xe, Wackenhut, Halliburton" is wrong, how do you justify doing the same to another corrupt organization?— legatus
- Talking point sleuth, let me ask you a question. What sort of voter turnout does the center right in this country get when compared to the left? No comparison. The left kills them and yet we haven't seen a Liberal landslide have we? What was the margin in popular vote this last election? 2%? The reason for that is many Conservatives and right leaning independents have disengaged from the process. Well, thanks to Obama, Reid, and Pelosi calling them racists, terrorists, AstroTurf, etc I think you'll see a different result next time around. Why don't you keep up your liberal smugness and help our cause further. Thank you.— pjsz1261
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- "He who lays down with dogs, RG." I didn't post that TPS. If you are trying to play the guilt by asosciation game and create a strawman of my viewpoints, well thats your problem.— RG
- ACORN must be shut down. They spend MILLIONS of dollars on tax evasion and human trafficki... No. Wait. ACORN spends BILLIONS of dollars on tax evasion and human traffck.... No, Wait, ACORN spends TRILLIONS of dollars on tax evasion, human trafficking, drug dealing, promoting incest, atheism, and other really, really bad stuff. Yeah, that's the ticket.— Talking point sleuth
- LOL! ---}}} Today's bad guys include those "predatory lenders" that preyed on the underclass by lending them money to purchase their own homes.{{{--- Try using the google, lefty, on the term "predatory lending," and you'll realize that you have no idea what the term even refers to. Not surprising, really, because that's why you don't understand the majorty of the work an agency like ACORN does, and why it's important. The kind of "predatory lending" ACORN has been involved in preventing is generally not "money lent to purchase homes." It's things like payday loans that are given at loanshark rates - practices that have fortunately been made illegal in many places thanks to organizations like ACORN. Tell me, lefty, why is it that you had no idea that the kinds of predatory lending that ACORN works on in poor communities has relatively little to do with mortgages - yet, you feel yourself knowledgeable enough on ACORN to make sweeping generalizations about the organization? You guys are hilarious.— Talking point sleuth
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- pjsz - First of all, it's "YOU'RE funny", not "your funny". If you're going to argue with an adult, please try and update YOUR grammar to a level somewhere around middle school, or you run the risk of revealing the fact that YOU'RE talking out of your rear end. Secondly, ACORN received 53 MILLION dollars in federal funding over 15 years - see, 53 MILLION is LESS than the "billions" you factlessly reference in your reply. Personally, I don't have a single problem with ACORN not receiving any federal funds. I was just pointing out that the outrage over the corruption within their organization seems to be a bit selective, given that organizations receiving much larger amounts of federal dollars (the military, Blackwater/Xe, Wackenhut, Halliburton) have been repeatedly accused, indicted and in some cases, CONVICTED of corruption on a much larger scale than anything that's ever happened at ACORN. As far as "throwing money at it until we get it right", you mean like we did in Iraq for six years? Have we found any WMD yet? Still looking for that pesky Saddam/9-11 connection? If my choice is between simply throwing money at a problem versus throwing money AND American soldiers' lives at a problem, I'll take just throwing money any day of the week.— JLB
- Lefty- very good point about the Congressional Democrats' guilt on predatory lending. I and many on the Left agree the Democrat Party is seriously flawed and needs to be held accountable on this and many issues. Democrats like to butter both sides of the bread and then seem to be surprised when they get fat. This upsets me since I find the Republicans to be far worse. Gotta give Republicans credit for being as brash as they are, they clearly don't care about poor minorities and they don't hide it. The Democratic party is a lot like ACORN; there are some bad apples, but overall, they are more likely than their competition to help the needy.— pagoda
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- In batboy's mind, paying someone a good wage for their hard work - so they can feed their kids - is "exploiting human beings." LOL! Touching concern there, I must say.— Talking point sleuth
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- Not fine, batboy, like I said. Seems you have just a tad of a comprehension problem there, bud. But nice way to duck the laughable bloviating of your statement that ACORN has spent "millions of tax dollars on the promotion of tax evasion and human trafficking." LOL!— Talking point sleuth
- Thanks bill, your concern for exploited humans is very reassuring.— pagoda
- Funny that Arthur Anderson should be mentioned above. The other Arthur Andersen...the accounting firm that was involved in the Enron scandal....was prosecuted and eventually shuttered because of what one (or maybe a small handful) of employees may have done. This cost the people and communities of the US 30,000 jobs. The guilty verdict was eventually set aside on appeal...after the damage had already been done and the firm was defunct. Liberals applauded the closure of this firm...despite the effect that it had on thousands of innocent people...despite its high degree of professionalism in doing work that is not only important, but mandated by law....for purely poliltical reasons. Since Enron was seen as being aligned with Bush, liberals were happy to see any firm associated with this scandal taken down simply due to the negative political consequences for Bush.— legatus