Zero Dark Zero: Our late, lame, Hollywood-driven "national conversation" on torture
The bottom line is this: The people who know the most about the pursuit of Osama bin Laden all tell a similar story: That "Zero Dark Thirty" invents the role that waterboarding or other forms of torture played in finding and killing bin Laden and that in the reality-based world torture did not drive the outcome.
Zero Dark Zero: Our late, lame, Hollywood-driven "national conversation" on torture
I'm going to back into this a little, but I finally, very belatedly got around to seeing "Argo" last night. Still a bit baffled by all the Oscar hype -- it's a very good movie (I did like how it evoked the great political thrillers of the '70s, when I was growing up) but nothing spectacular. And frankly I was a little troubled by the historical twisting of the facts -- the under-appreciation of the Canadian role in freeing six U.S. hostages from Iran in 1980, and the final airport drama that never happened. Ditto for (the solid but a tad dull) "Lincoln," which made Connecticut into a pro-slavery state for no other reason than to make a roll-call a tad more dramatic.
That's shameful and unnecessary -- but the killing-Bin-Laden movie "Zero Dark Thirty" is a completely different category. I got into it a bit -- also yesterday -- on Twitter, with Larry Mendteof all people, after the former Philly news anchor posted and promoting a video casting aspersions on how Hollywood's liberal "politics" had wrecked the Oscar chances of the Kathryn Bigelow-directed flick.
The bottom line is this: The people who know the most about the pursuit of Osama bin Laden all tell a similar story: That "Zero Dark Thirty" invents the role that waterboarding or other forms of torture played in finding and killing bin Laden and that in the reality-based world torture did not drive the outcome. The latest and strongest rejoinder came this morning in the New York Times from Ali H. Soufan, an FBI counterterrorism agent deeply involved in the bin Laden chase. He writes:
"Meanwhile, promoters of torture get to hoodwink journalists, authors and Hollywood producers while selectively declassifying material and providing false information that fits their narrative. The creators of “Zero Dark Thirty” attempted to document the greatest global manhunt of our generation. But they did so without acknowledging that their “history” was based on dubious sources."
A couple of things here. Getting some facts wrong about the Iranian hostage crisis or the passage of the 13th Amendment is a misdemeanor against history, for sure. But getting it wrong on torture and related issues like the prison camp at Guantanamo Bay are lashing an open wound in the U.S. body politic. America's embrace of criminal immorality crushed global respect for our country and created a new wave of anti-Americanism in the process. If millions of citizens are getting their education at the multiplex -- and they are -- then we should get it right.
But even more important is this. We've been having this debate about a movie and about "Hollywood politics" because our so-called political leaders -- from President Obama on down -- have been too cowardly to have this conversation themselves. When Obama ran in 2008, he promised at least an initial probe and hopefully some justice for the sins of the 2000s, including torture. This has not happened -- instead, secrecy has increased.
As Soufan notes in his piece, the Obama administration and Congress could clear the air about the role of torture in the bin Laden matter by declassifying the key reports -- but they refuse to do so. So instead we're "prosecuting" the wrongs of torture by arguing over whether a Hollywood movie deserves an Academy Award. So American! And so wrong.
Now here, in the interest of fairness (as always) is Larry Mendte's video take:
Don't be a liberal dope— Friend to All- As someone who has written a historial novel, I appreciate the need to make a few changes to make the story work. I loved Argo as a movie (and Charlie Wilson's War for similar reasons), but knew even as I was hanging onto to seat with induced suspense during the final chase that this part was not history. I doubt that the Hollywood guys played by Alan Arkin and John Goodman were not nearly that funny in real life either. Lincoln was probably too close to history, despite the CT error, to be a compelling movie, although seeing it was a great experience. Zero Dark Thirty felt more like a movie to me and also I did not think that the torture really suggested that this was a main clue that lead to UBM (as they called Osama); in fact, it felt more like the dead end it was. I grew up on biopics that elided over such facts as Larry Hart and Cole Porter being at minimum bisexual and most plain gay. I don't think any reasonably sophisticated movie-goer of the 1940s or 1950s felt that the musicals based on lives of composers actually revealed their real lives--did Bing Crosby as Johann Strauss actually write Tales of the Vienna Woods while listening to bird calls in the woods? I could cite dozens of similar instances of movie truth replacing actual truth. So I am less concerned with how the movie deals with history (up to a point, of course) than how the movie deals with me as a movie-goer.— Archimedes
- End the Hollywood tax breaks.— Mr. Smith
- can't get it wrong will? wish you felt that way about benghazi.— rysagr
- what's the point with Patrick Ewing in bangs? Another Oscar for a movie that nobody has seen.— MilesLong1
- Bunch, you are without question one of the most monotonous, intellectual vapid pundits in the media.— Jack Klompus
- Bunch, you are without question one of the most monotonous, intellectual vapid pundits in the media.— Jack Klompus
- So the fact you keep coming back time and time again, what does that say about you?
lolz......dopes, no change!— The Fundamentals of the Economy are Fine - I thought it was great how all those brave, courageous, courageously brave, courageous, brave, brave & courageous actors took the opportunity to speak out on behalf of that filmaker currently in solitary confinement just miles away from the festivities. You remember that guy, right? The poor chap whom the administration tried to pin the blame on for an AQ terrorist attck for weeks on end so they could win an election just a couple months later?
And then the icing on the cake was to have the wife of glorious Dear Leader come out and give the award for best picture. WELCOME TO OUR BANANA REPUBLIC!— teardownthisfishwrap - I'm sure Michelle, in her expensive gown, and handlers behind her impressed the heck out of all the one-percenters in the room. Who knows, maybe some of the unemployed who have to pay 3.65 a gallon for gas were impressed too.— jmc
- I'm just glad it set you off enough to come here and post more drivel. — chasing history
- """how Hollywood's liberal "politics" had wrecked the Oscar chances"""
Why the quote marks, Will?
You did see who helped award the best picture Oscar, right?
Kind of reminded me of that old Apple '1984' commercial... without the hammer thrower, of course.
— michael_b - I guess Michelle's job was to make sure Sam Bacile didn't get the Oscar? Maybe Congress should open an investigation and demand the WH turn over the contents of that envelope, eh?
- The Oscars are a night of celebration for members of the Motion Picture Academy. Michele's appearance in a prime role is more testimony the the unbounded hubris of the First Family. I'm disgusted. — philly2flag
- If that's "unbounded hubris", what would you call throwing out the first pitch of the MLB season or world series?
- A dignified act by one of the most revered presidents in the history of our country. — philly2flag
- Who is this "one of the most revered presidents in the history of our country", exactly?
— wokmaster - Bush was an owner... a member of the community. Michelle's relationship is only that she can see any movie she wants - free. — philly2flag
- Philly, so you're saying that with the exception of Bush - because of his prior baseball connections - every president who threw out the first pitch was guilty of unbounded hubris?
- What's Michelle's next gig, promo's for the Vegamatic? Bowflex?— jimmymack
- "Shared sacrifice clearly doesn't apply to Michelle... " Has her income placed her in the new, higher marginal income tax bracket, meaning she is paying more in tax liability than previously? That's what I thought. "You remember that guy, right? The poor chap whom the administration tried to pin the blame on for an AQ terrorist attck for weeks on end so they could win an election just a couple months later?" No I definitely don't remember the guy in that way - I think one would need to be heavily medicated to reach this conclusion. Or dumb...or both. Ill, any way you cut it. But so brave as well.— Murrayman
- I'm so glad that film on families living out of their cars received the award for "Best Documentary". ...... I'm sorry, what?
BTW - great comment michael b. The worship of Obama by the Hollywood left is downright creepy. Like Chris Rock said - "He's like our Dad". lol— teardownthisfishwrap - "Michele's appearance in a prime role is more testimony the the unbounded hubris of the First Family" Yeah I'm sure the First Lady demanded to be a presenter - she wanted invited to do so. She accepted an invitation - how is that hubris? When people deflect and transfer their failed lives - its strange what results. Who gives a hoot who presented? I saw ZDT, and I just don't recall the film suggesting in any way that t0rture led Amman to give up information that was direct. In the film he didn't even suggest anything that directly led to the courier. He gave up a tidbit only later on, and it was Maya who constructed a mosaic in which the tidbit fit into. On its own the comment during the meal scene was innocuous. Used in a mosaic by a savvy analyst made it significant. Again, on screen, nothing came about from the t0rture other than painting a picture of the effectiveness of the 'good cop, bad cop' routine, embodied by one agent.— Murrayman
- Anyone that needs a movie to tell them what really happened to capture OBL is not worth the trouble educating. They are non thinking drones that are more concerned about watching NASCAR crashes and FOX News, than knowing the truth.— chasing history
- As opposed to intellectual giants like you who still recycle tired, played out cliches about "Fox News" and make thinly veiled references to your alleged superiority over uneducated rubes. I love fake intellectuals who puff themselves up and pose like the truly "informed and enlightened." Here's some truth - you're a pretentious twit prancing around on Will Bunch's comments section. You're not splitting any atoms, oh educated one. — Jack Klompus
- "played out cliches about "Fox News" and make thinly veiled references to your alleged superiority over uneducated rubes"
I think you're confusing splitting the atom with being CORRECTLY informed about current events. Like: Were WMDs ever found in Iraq? Nope. Most Fox rubes believe there was. Are "death panels" a part of Obamacare? Nope. Most Fox rubes believe it was. And I could go on ad infinitum.— wokmaster - You're almost as intellectually vapid as chasing. — Jack Klompus
- I guess the Fox "News" comments struck a nerve with you. Sorry about that. — wokmaster
- Oh lord, the irony! — chasing history
- If I recall the movie does not really show that torture directly provides any quality intel. As the movie shows it, dont they tell the prisoner that because he was tortured his memory is all messed up and he doesnt remember giving them the intel, so they trick him into providing more information. This after they already failed to prevent the bus bombing in London. I wouldn't say that this makes any statements toward the effectiveness of torture one way or another.— Greg S
- BANANA REPUBLIC WATCH: "MSNBC, With Ex-Obama Aides, Now Almost 'Bona Fide Organ of State Propaganda'... "
SMARTER THAN THE ROOM: "Kerry's first gaffe: Invents country of 'Kyrzakhstan'... "— teardownthisfishwrap - What, the "most transparent administration in history" is refusing to release reports? You don't say.— General Turgidson
- While Obama's record of transparency is a joke, the report at issue is in the control of the Senate Intel Committee which has yet to vote to release it. To sign the ACLU petition: https://www.aclu.org/secure/tell-senate-intelligence-committee-release-cia-torture-report
- "If that's "unbounded hubris", what would you call throwing out the first pitch of the MLB season or world series?"
MLS - I've ceased wasting my time arguing what seems to be the same old points daily but I do check in and read for fun on occassion and if you ever disparage the great National Pasttime of baseball, I'll hunt you down like UBL. :) (hope you & yours are well)— bird11 - Ok, I'll say it. Why in the world are you following Larry Mendte on Twitter?— chasing history
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