Posted by Will Bunch @ 11:03 AM
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31 comments
From what I recall from law school, some states and/or entities don't always avail themselves to sovereign immunity and make themselves available to lawsuits. Granted, I don't know NY laws, so I do admit that the victims could be possibly be screwed. But I think soveriegn immunity would be applicable to state actions; it is possibly a case can still be made against the detectives for personal liability. In NJ, I believe that you can file a tort claim notice with a municipality or gov't entity within 60 days to preserve your claim. State liability, however, is more of an issue to ensure that the legal damages are paid; individuals could have little assets and getting money is like getting blood from a stone.
Publius, how might sovereign immunity impact the officers' or the department's civil liability? Wouldn't you need to show more than mere negligence against "the man"?
I think the one thing that we need to take out of the article, and as an attorney that does some criminal defense work, is that the article referenced extensive witness testimony provided by the prosecution as well as the defense attorneys. The judge (the officers waived their right to a jury trial, a risky move in of itself) had voluminous amount of evidence for both sides. Given the extraordinary conflicting evidence, it is tough to say that the judge was without basis to determine that the prosecution did not prove their case "beyond a reasonable doubt". Assault and manslaughter require specific intent to commit a violent act to another person; the defense put forth considerable testimony that would indicate that they beleived to have reasonably acted in self-defense. Granted, my opinion is wholly based on a legal perspective.
However, I do not think it is appropriate to conclude that, because criminal liability was not found, justice was denied. The officers do face the possibility of wrongful death suits in a civil court and administrative penalties (termination of employment and loss of pension) through their employer. Justice can still be served.
For example, a common sense opinion would determine that firing 50 shots on an unarmed person indicates either poorly trained officers or officers that panicked in a situation. This creates a different issue of liability; these officers could very well incur civil liability as their actions could be construed as negligent in the performance of their duty and it resulted in a wrongful death. Such a verdict could levy a judgment against the officers in the millions of dollars, which is certainly punitive in its nature and it would at least compensate the victims' families. There is more to this than hyperbole.
Apparently, Yanker, you missed the part where Pleby said that it is a cause' celbre for white supremacists. It clearly is. Which is why I've heard about the case numerous times, brought up by people trying to capitalize on horrible suffering in similarly bogus moral equivalency contexts. What, exactly, does the case you're talking about have to do with the NYC case? Are you saying that we shouldn't be concerned about the circumstances of the NYC case? You don't see any problem with the 50 shots fired at an unarmed man? Even if you trust the court system in finding no criminal offense (which I'm inclined to do), that doesn't dismiss the appearance of poor police conduct.
A " cause celebre " ? I'd venture 85 per cent of the country is unaware of it.Some cause celebre.
"Are you always this judgemental or are you just having a bad day ?" - judgmental? what's judgmental about it? Instead of commenting on the case of NYPD officers shooting 50 bullets at an unarmed man, you bring up a white nationalist cause celebre having to do with a 15 month old case. What was the point of that, exactly? Aside from a cheap shot at Springsteen, as if he's supposed to write songs about every crime that takes place in America? Springsteen - who I can't stand musically - has been intimately involved with New York City for decades and it's natural for him to use events in that city as topics for his songs. A double murder in South Carolina - oh, wait, sorry, Tennessee - not so much.
I still don't see the connection to the NYPD shooting case - beyond the obvious canard that "black on white crime" doesn't get press coverage (of course, we heard ad infinitum from the "conservatives" around here when the "pack" of black kids surrounded the white Starbucks manager in the subway concourse, but, you know, this stuff gets swept under the rug). Two of the cops in the NYPD case were black as was the victim - yet "yankee" sees an immediate correlation with his "black on white crime" connection and immediately cites a white nationalist cause celebre. Make of that what you will.
e.pleb-Are you always this judgemental or are you just having a bad day ?
I read the details, truly awful. We need to tread lightly so that we aren't using this case, and by proxy, the victims, as a tool for our agendas. No idea why it didn't receive more coverage, and I honestly can't say that its not becase it was black on white crime. Not sure it should have received more coverage, but with media sensationlism, I am supriised it didn't. If we are talking hate crime (which Yankee never brought up, to be fair), I see no proof. Just an awful act of violence. Same with the white person in a car who shot the black kid in S Philly for not moving his bike fast enough. Horrendous crime, however, no sign that it was racially motivated. As for Plebby's sentiments, I am usually against the death penalty for various reasons, but you wouldn't hear a peep out of me if they executed these 4 people.
OK, well, this case happened in January, 2007. Odd that we would be obsessing about it today (although it is something of a white nationalist cause celebre) and also odd that it didn't happen in South Carolina. It was in Tennessee. There go those darn "facts" again - and many of the "facts" thrown around by people like (shockingly enough) Michelle Malkin turned out to be... wrong. "There is absolutely no proof of a hate crime," said John Gill, special counsel to Knox County District Atty. Randy Nichols. "We know from our investigation that the people charged in this case were friends with white people, socialized with white people, dated white people. So not only is there no evidence of any racial animus, there's evidence to the contrary." Quite frankly, I would hope that they remove all four assailants from the face of the earth once they are convicted. It was a brutal, heinous, premeditated crime. Now, do you have any other white nationalist cause celebres you'd like to bring up?
You may be right. But if the perps received a fair trial, were found guilty, and sentenced, what else is needed? My outrage can't bring the victim back. Its like when people ask for outrage over a beheading in iraq compared to the outrage of abu gharib. of course normal people are sickened and angered by violent, despicable acts, it goes without saying. the outrage you see against acts by police or military is because we hold them to a higher standard, and because that outrage can be channeled to affect change.
RG-Sadly most people aren't familiar with the case.Google Christopher Newson & Channon Christain in S.C.and see if you're not sickened.I can't help but feel if the perps & victims races were reversed it would be a 24/7 story.
E.Plebnista.-Are you trying to be ironic ? You piggy back on someone else's ( somewhat ) measured response by saying "yeah,they think ".
"Now,where is the outrage over the S.C. case ? An especially brutal crime with a hot minute's worth of press." - and you actually see a parallel between three police officers firing 50 bullets at an unarmed man getting acquitted and a murderer/rapist getting life in prison without possibility of parole (and it wasn't a "double murder")? Oh, right, you don't really care about either one, you just need to make a partisan, political point. What about Alan Wade who actually IS on death row for "double murder" - where's your outrage about him and his brutal crime? Oh, right, he doesn't fit your agenda's "demographic profile." He's white.
Honestly, I'm not familiar with the case, probably because it hasn't been publicized. Were they acquitted? Are you suggesting that the level of publicity a crime receives should be tied to its heinousness? Thats the old, "if it bleed's it leads" strategy, sensationalism at its best.
"Has anyone heard a Liberal attack criminals when they murder Policemen?-EVER?" - Yes. Mumia abu Jamal (I'm not surprised you didn't even know his name) should be dead already. "Gee, you think that may be it?" - Good stuff, RG, classic humor. Yeah, they "think." Uh-huh. Good one!
RG-Okay,I'll concede your point.Now,where is the outrage over the S.C. case ? An especially brutal crime with a hot minute's worth of press.
Actually, Bruce sang this song, "American Skin", during his 1999-2000 tour in reference to another NYPD shooting of an unarmed man; the song was not about this incident.
Of course we make you sick, because you're wading in the shallow end of the gene pool, incapable of rational thought. Yeah, there was no outrage in the Daily News of from Will when John Lewis killed Officer Cassidy. No coverage of that whatsoever. How it must be nice to have such a selective memory so you never have to deal with facts.
And Yankee Air Pirate, you see any difference in those two situations? Hmmm, maybe because police are supposed to keep the peace and uphold the law so they are held to a higher standard? Gee, you think that may be it?
Comment removed.
Is Bruce singing anything about that heinous double murder,torture & rape case in S.C. ? Probably not since the demographic profile doesn't fit the liberal agenda.
Like all leftists, Will and Springsteen have it all convoluted: This blog should read "Once again, your final score...Bullets 50, Justice served.
Comment removed.
Justice 0? The cops went on trial, and were aquitted based on the evidence presented. The justice system worked as advertised. Justice was served even if you don't agree with the outcome. Now here's Weird Al Yankovic:
I don't how many of the inevitable commentators on both sides were privy to the testimony. I sure as heck wasn't. I would say that just because some non uniformed guy says he's a cop, there's no way I'm believing it. If he pulls a gun on me, I can't pretend to know what I would do. If I was in a car, I would probably floor it. I don't know how the officers are trained, but plainclothes officers must know that just announcing they're a police officer doesn't carry the same weight a uniformed officer would have. There may not have been enough evidence to convict, but something definitely went horribly wrong, and assuming the police are completely vindicated would be a mistake.
"Do you wahcky Liberals- EVER side with police or for that matter anyone in Authority? ----------------------------------------------------------------Here is what another important musician had to say_-------------------------"I cannot believe it, 50 shots?" Those police are bad."---------------------George Michael
Posted by The Genius"
What a surprise. Genius/Idiot at it again. 3 cops fire 50 shots at UNARMED men and you see NOTHING wrong with this?!! One of them emptied 2 clips. Do you know how long they had to keep shooting for it to happen like this? As RG says, at BEST it shows very poor training on their part. This is indicative of some police not seeing black men as human beings but animals on the open range. Remember a few years ago also in NYC the unarmed black man was shot 42 times because he reached for his wallet? There is an obvious pattern here.
and a third time test
testing again
test
Genius, is your need to conform and obey without question so pathetic that you can't see any reason why some people might be upset by this? Do you have any substance beyond cops=unquestioned authority? Three undercover cops fire 50+ shots (one of them emptied 2 clips WTF??!?!?!) at an unarmed man? At best, its an example of poorly trained, trigger happy cops.
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Will Bunch, a senior writer at the Philadelphia Daily News, blogs about his obsessions, including national and local politics and world affairs, the media, pop music, the Philadelphia Phillies, soccer and other sports, not necessarily in that order.
Will Bunch, a senior writer at the Philadelphia Daily News, blogs about his obsessions, including national and local politics and world affairs, the media, pop music, the Philadelphia Phillies, soccer and other sports, not necessarily in that order.
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