When Mayor Nutter announced late last year that he was hiring D.C. Charles Ramsey as his police commissioner, I said I would keep an open mind but I was dismayed at his treatment of anti-war protesters and his frequent clashes there over civil rights. So far, I've been mostly impressed with Ramsey -- murders have dropped slightly while he's taken a tough line on police brutality.
That said, I find the detainment of four community activists in the Francisville neighborhood to be more than a little alarming. The only thing that's clear from what's come out so far is that the four oppose police surveillance cameras. What's not clear is what laws they allegedly violated -- they ultimately were not charged with anything:
Four young residents of a North Philadelphia house who circulated petitions questioning police-surveillance cameras were rousted from their home Friday and detained 12 hours without charges while police searched their house.
Daniel Moffat, 28, a co-owner of the house, said police had no warrant when they entered. The house was examined by officials from several government agencies and then shuttered by the city's Department of Licenses and Inspections.
"This leaves me homeless, without access to things I need. My whole life is disrupted," Moffat said yesterday.
The raid on the property on Ridge Avenue near Parrish Street was led by 9th District Police Capt. Dennis Wilson, who was quoted in an online story by the City Paper as saying of the residents: "They're a hate group. We're trying to drum up charges against them, but unfortunately we'll probably have to let them go."
My friend Dave Davies -- who worked hard to make sense of this complicated story -- reached Wilson, who didn't comment. Hopefully, if Commissioner Ramsey and Mayor Nutter are as serious about civil rights as they claim to be, they'll ask Internal Affairs to investigate what looks like, based on everything that's come out so far, an alarming abuse of power by the police -- the kind of thing you might expect to see, to use a popular phrase, in a Stalinist regime.
In fact, I happen to disagree with these activists; I think that police cameras -- when placed in public locations and aimed at public property -- are a legitimate way to help the undermanned cops patrol the city. But it's also a valid public issue, and those who feel the cameras are an invasion of privacy certainly have a right to express their opinion.
Or, in a free society, they're supposed to. This search and detainment is outrageous.
Ramsey needs to set the tone. When he was commissioner in Washington, that city paid out at least $14 million in scores of civil rights lawsuits, money that should have been spent fighting thugs on the street.
It's a matter of life and death that history doesn't repeat itself in Philadelphia.
Posted by Will Bunch @ 10:27 AM
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53 comments
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Just more proof that the PD has the same kind of cretins, criminals and losers as the general population. And the general population has quite a few cowards and dolts who seem to really believe that the PD will use it's power wisely, and appropriately. Sad to see that the BushCo mantra of the "law" being subjective and only applicable when it suits their needs has filtered down to the local level. Guess the local SS has also taken the BushCo lead in using "1984" as a How-To guide. And they wonder why they can't get local cooperation. Guess Philly will soon be topping Washington's 14 million in civil liberty violation awards paid under Charles "Arrest Them All and Then Try to Figure It Out" Ramsey.
Perhaps next time Obama should do his "special meeting" in the Francisville section instead of in tony Wayne.
The police went to this guy's house to talk to him after neighbors said he was the one responsible for vandalizing police cameras. When the cops asked him if he owned the property, he lied. Then, he took the keys to his place and threw them behind a gate where the cops had to fish them out. And it is a civil injustice that he got locked up?
Wow. I'd love to be a civil rights lawyer in Philly right now. The cops just made these kids rich.
LJL: What BS!! When's the last time Philadelphia voted or even sided with a Republican?!!! Since Phila. is so behind Obama, maybe you should be questioning his trickle down ideas (as rediculous as that would be too). Get a life and move on past your fetish on Bush!
""Propaganda against the government," chimed in officer John Taggert" -- Do these people even listen to themselves?
Both sides have some problems here. If the people inside were approached to be questioned after the police received information, and they did not ackowledge ownership of the property or a basis to lawfully be on the premises, the cops may have a right to enter, but the continuing search is problematic, especially if the quotes from the officer are accurate. If the police had legitamate sources to obtain a warrant, why not get it first? It does not sound like the usual exigent circumstances-type of case. The idiotic grafitti inside does not give the police free reign to do what they want. Idiots have rights too.
The greeatness of our country has its roots in our freedom of speech --- even for those with whom we disagree. That's not the hard part. Its hard to stand up for freedom of speech when they are exercised by the types of creeps Capt. Awesome mentions.
How does somebody spray paint a police surveillance camera without being caught on video? I get the sense that these cameras are there for show more than anything. There are reports from NYC that cops who've been confined to desk duty for disciplinary reasons are manning surveillance cameras placed around housing projects, and are having a sporting time peering into windows and other areas where privacy is expected. It seems the only purpose behind the cameras is to give residents a false sense of security.
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"Its hard to stand up for freedom of speech when they are exercised by the types of creeps Capt. Awesome mentions.".............................................Of course it's hard. If it were easy, we wouldn't need it written in the Bill of Rights.
Shouldn't we focus on something more important? We haven't had a "Bonnie" (Jocelyn Kirsch) update in over 24 hours! She might be patronizing the King of Prussia Mall at this very moment!
The guy locked up said the graffiti was on the building next door, and that it was already there when they moved in. Maybe folks should reserve comments until they know the details?
Umm, in London I could understand people being upset and questioning surveillance cameras. It's a safe city- thanks to strict gun control laws. But in Philly?? It's Dodge Effing City there. WAKE UP. You can't both: no gun control *and* no surveillance. Come on.
Philadelphia is a dangerous and declining city. You need cameras ASAP or you will sink even further.
Quote from this guy: "The police captain [Wilson] said he’d do me a favor, and put us in a cell because it was so hot outside. I asked, if we weren’t being arrested, why we were being sent to be processed in jail? He smiled at me in a joking manner, and said, “Call it a kidnapping.”
These guys are holding a press conference at 1pm today at City Hall: On Tuesday, June 17th, at 1pm, the owners and residents of 1652 Ridge Avenue will hold a press conference on the western steps of City Hall to inform reporters and interested parties about the June 13th police action seizing their property and sealing off their home.
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Didn't give either side the benefit of the doubt, batboy. I said we should wait until we had more information. Nice try, though.
"This is why the sleuth is nothing more than the bwaccking sycophant he accuses others of being." Brilliant. Are these people Democratic party leader sor something? Are the cops neocons in disguise? Seriously, do you even think before you post? The issue is that no warrant was obtained, and no charges were filed after this entire hulabaloo. Yeah, apparently these people were nitwits, who may or may not have been doing stupid things. However, since they aren't being charged with a crime, doesn't this seem a tad much?
I'm definitely interested in seeing this story flushed out more. From what I read on another site: the cops were investigating someone vandalizing the police cameras. Neighbors said a group of people living in this building were responsible. Police took a look at the apartment and thought it was abandoned (I saw pics of the building. The windows are either boarded up, or just empty holes, and there is no running water). They went to check it out. This guy answered the door, refused to give his name, and said he wasn't the owner. The cops thought he was a squatter who had no right to be there.
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Hey Cap'n. Where did you get...."Neighbors said a group of people living in this building were responsible...." What I read in the article says "...interviews with neighbors led police to suspect that "people in this house were possibly involved."..." Close, but not exactly one and the same.
"Yeah, let's give the guys pointed out by the neighbors as vandals or worse the benefit of the doubt.".........................Batboy, don't make it harder on the cops than it already is. If they had probable cause to believe that the suspects were vandals or worse based on any credible information provided by the neighbors, they could have easily obtained a warrant first.
Mayor Nutter is shredding the Constitution! Another thing: Why do all activists look alike?
I swear all you dopes complaining about these clowns being "violated", are the same dopes who complain about how dangerous the city is these days. If you have any ideas on how Police and Nutter can save our city, I'd like to hear them. Extreme situations call for extreme solutions. When we lose 300+ people every year due to murder, something has to change. The best defense is a good offense.
What kind of "activist" were these guys? Something tells me they have posted on a few Mumia sites before. I'm all for community activist, but if you are encouraging killing cops, you deserve to be violated and locked up.
You bleeding hearts really crack me up. Must be nice to live in a world where you offer no suggestions on how to make things better.
Good call, 5. I agree that we should just throw people in jail, without sufficient evidence to obtain a warrant, and then let them go later if we can't "drum" up evidence sufficient to prove their guilt. Obviously, that will take care of the crime problem.
TPS, I probably used the wrong word, but "possibly involved" = "possibly responsible." My point was that neighbors said the folks living in what appeared to be an abandoned building had something to do with the police cameras being vandalized.
montani, the police did get a search warrant: "Once inside, Vanore said, police saw things that prompted them to obtain a search warrant, such as protest literature, anti-police graffiti on walls, and the construction of what police thought might be a bunker on the roof." Do the police need a warrant if they go to a building that they think is abandoned, and some guy answers the door saying he isn't the owner?
It's a technicality, Cap'n, but you're still making a jump. Something the neighbors said led the police to suspect folks living in that building - that doesn't mean that the neighbors said that someone living in the building had something to do with it.
I'm with Montani! If a camera can't get a shot of it's own defacer, we are in trouble! Better idea - smear it w/ vaseline and make all the old ladies waiting fr the bus look younger.
This looks VERY BAD. Philly is not a place that follows the rule of law very well. Do you think that the three thugs that the police beat up the other day would have had the same treatment if they were whites with the same police records? And yes, Philly has had THREE black mayors. Who is really controlling this place anyway?
Philly looks like a Mexican federation controlled by local police stations.
b.atkinson "let's give the guys pointed out by the neighbors as vandals or worse the benefit of the doubt."
Aside from the fact that our judicial system is supposed to do exactly that (innocent until proven guilty), I wonder how you would feel if your neighbors could implicate you without any evidence resulting in a police search and seizure action when you hadn't done anything wrong. Would be just like the McCarthy communism witch hunts before too long. Don't like you neighbor? Just accuse him of something...don't get along with your boss at work? Make up some kind of bogus charge...
Captain Awesome, there is a contridiction here...if the police action was based on the account of neighbors saying "people in the house are responsible" then they couldn't have thought it was abandoned. If their actions were based on the assumption the property was abandoned, then the nieghbors accounts can't have been given credence. And ownership of the property is irrelevant - if the occupant has permission to be there, it doesn't matter if he is an owner, renter, guest, etc. He did offer to contact the owner to establish his legitimacy according to the story, but the police weren't interested in that.
Hey TPS, if have you a better idea on how we can curb violence in this City, I'd like to hear it..Just for kicks, if this clown were to blow up a building in our city, or organize some kind of riot, you would be first on board saying "How can this dirtball be living among us, without us knowing? Where are our cops?"...My brother-in-law is a cop, and I know not all are good apples, but I also know that they don't go invading people's houses for no reason..Especially in the sue happy society we live in...So again I'll ask, what should our Mayor and cops be doing?
For once, I semi-agree. The fact is though that England now has tens of thousands of public cameras and its crime keeps going up. Both the cameras and the ridiculous search here and the cops even more ridiculous anti-liberty tirade make me worry about Philly. There are enough actual crimes around for the police to look into, why do they need to resort to this?
"montani, the police did get a search warrant".........Yes, after the fact. Even then, any evidence obtained with that warrant might be inadmissible as "fruit from a poisoned tree", because it was based on information obtained by an unlawful search. So if these guys are in fact the latest version of the Weathermen, or Army of the 12 Monkeys, or whatever, they might yet walk courtesy of very unprofessional police work.
I would not blame the police. does anyone here really think the police spray painted "kill the pigs" on the wall? Thats not even really a crime, so it would be a poor way to frame someone. Also why is everyone rooting for these guys and not our police?
srmzeus11, you can have someone living in a building that is abandoned, or at least appears to be abandoned. The City Paper article has a picture of the building. If I saw that picture without any explanation, I would guess it is abandoned or at least not fit for habitation. Like I said earlier, the store on the bottom floor is decepit. One of the windows on the second floor is boarded up, while the other one is just a hole.
I'm curious to hear at what point did the guy offer to contact owner? After he had been a d-bag, at which point the cops were probably fed up with him?...Someone said people living in that house were involved in the vandalism. I’m not a cop in that part of the city, but it would seem fishy to me that someone would be living in that building, given its appearance. When they went to investigate, they found some guy who wasn’t cooperating. He told the cops that the owner wasn’t around, but he wouldn’t ID himself. Considering the guy’s behavior and the state of the building, it seems logical that a cop would think something is weird here: maybe they are burglars are trespassing. When the cops said they are coming in to investigate, the guy locked the door and throws the keys someplace where the cops can’t reach it….
Finally, the news story talks about all of the different agencies that searched the home. The Dept of Homeland Security and the State Police seems like a bit much, but it seems reasonable that L&I and the FD would be involved given the state of the building. L&I said there was no running water, holes in the floor, etc. This guy is making it sound like L&I railroaded him to get him out of the neighborhood.
"why is everyone rooting for these guys and not our police?" --- When the police blatantly say "We're trying to drum up charges", it kind of makes it hard to root for them. Being a d-bag isn't probable cause for a search, nor is refusing to give ID (I don't know if there's a PA state law that requires you to give your name).
The police should stay out of the way of these community organizers who are valiantly and selflessly serving the interests of their neighbors.
"Also why is everyone rooting for these guys and not our police?"....................Jeez, get off your TV reality show mentality for once. Some of us are rooting for nothing more than the preservation of our own civil rights, which can never be assured if we start making exceptions or turn a blind eye based on the emotions of the moment. It's always easy to say the cops should be given free license to ignore those rights when it's not your neighborhood they're policing. At least these cops still live in those neighborhoods, and aren't out in the cozy suburbs deciding what's best for the blighted inner city. These cities were destroyed years ago by the flight of money and jobs to the suburbs, so we all share some blame for the social cancer that's festered there ever since.
Mr. Smith: The police should stay out of the way of these community organizers who are valiantly and selflessly serving the interests of their neighbors." If you read the article, it looks like their neighbors turned these guys in to the police. Not exactly valiant or selfless.
If being a d-bag is a crime, there would be an awful lot of arrests of posters on this blog. The point is, if the police captain did say they were looking to drum up charges on these guys, then that is a frightening aspect. There is alos the matter of the 1st Amendment. If there was graffiti or some anti-police leaflets, they are protected under that amendment. Only something advocating the murder of police or others or the destruction of property may, repeat, may be considered unlawful. Making up charges is not.
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Wow, I can't believe everyone is making such a big freaking deal over these idiots. How would you feel, Mr. Moffat, if you were friends with Beau Zabel, or how about the nurse who was shot in the back of the head near Pennsylvania Hospital a few years ago... Frankly, I think there are people who wear their whiteness as though it's a force field. You just don't get it, you probably never will. The people you profess to protect and care about know that you can't have civil liberties if you are afraid for your life. You don't seem to get that there is a fascism to stopping public order, or obstructing it. In a city that has had 6 shootings in one day, and now a shooting at a graduation, we need more cameras not less. There are systemic problems that must be addressed long term, but the more information you can amass, the better, so... we need cameras, more of them, not less. Get the f**k over yourselves, you, and your self-righteousness, are not more important than the whole. And if the local residents did turn you in... maybe you should get the message.
The police are way out of bounds on this one. If the cops had reasonable cause they should have obtained a warrant. They didn't. I think heads should roll in the police department. Someone needs to remind them that we have a constitution. By the way, I respect police officers. I realize they do a dangerous job. But their job is to "serve and protect", not to trample our most fundamental rights. This is the USA, for crying out loud.
Gee, does this sound like the very same "hands off" mentality thatr lead up to the "MOVE COMPOUND" and burning down west philly war of mayor Johnny B Good.. no L& I inspections
Once again b.at resorts to strawmen to make himself feel better. However, no one said that neighbors shouldn't report suspicious behavior or evidence of a crime to the police. What people have been saying is that an anecdotal report by a neighbor (or anyone else) should not be the sole basis for a police raid, as this turns the police into weapons for disgruntled neighbors. This is a rare but real phenomenon, and these police mistakes can cost innocent lives.
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As ex-Patriate American living in the "Wild" Middle East, I am beginning to appreciate where I live much better. Wasn't Philly the place where they signed the Constition? Somebody forgot that little detail when the Chief of Police called to arrest, no, they didn't arrest, they investigated four young men in North Philly. One of the town's most disginguished citizens, Benjamin Franklin, said something to the effect that anyone who was willing to give up their rights in order to protect their rights was bound to lose them, and by golly, you guys in Philly are losin' it.
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Will Bunch, a senior writer at the Philadelphia Daily News, blogs about his obsessions, including national and local politics and world affairs, the media, pop music, the Philadelphia Phillies, soccer and other sports, not necessarily in that order.
Will Bunch, a senior writer at the Philadelphia Daily News, blogs about his obsessions, including national and local politics and world affairs, the media, pop music, the Philadelphia Phillies, soccer and other sports, not necessarily in that order.
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