Kent State: Still seeking the truth
Kent State: Still seeking the truth
This is discouraging for those of who still want the truth about more recent events like the financial crisis or the torture regime under George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. On the 40th anniversary, we're still seeking the truth about the massacre of four people during the anti-war protests at Ohio's Kent State University.
A 40-year-old audio recording of the moments just before Ohio National Guardsmen opened fire on antiwar protesters at Kent State University will finally be professionally analyzed to try to determine if -- as some claim -- an order to shoot is audible.
The recording was made on May 4, 1970, by Terry Strubbe, a KSU communications student who set the microphone of his reel-to-reel tape recorder on his dorm room windowsill, turned on the machine, and went outside to watch the unfolding protest.
The chilling 30-minute tape is the only known audio that captured sounds before the shootings, the 13-second fusillade and its chaotic aftermath. Four students were killed and nine wounded in the incident, which spawned numerous inquiries and crystallized American sentiment about the unpopular Vietnam War.
I applaud the efforts to hold a Kent State Truth Tribunal next week. Contrary to those who think it's counter-productive to look backwards (yes, I'm talking about you, Barack Obama), I'm glad that there are citizens and journalists who will go to the wall for the truth, even 40 years after the fact. The song "Ohio" by Crosby Stills Nash & Young has always been one of my favorites; in it, Neil Young sings, "How can you run when you know." But first have have to know...the truth.
Comments (87)
Unarmed students shot and killed, and people think I'm an extremist.— RG
I’d like to know if the guardsmen were ordered to fire. My aunt went to Kent State. She started there two years after the massacre occurred, thank goodness, but I know she would like to know the truth too.— Hamlet
Cue troll postings about dirty commie hippies...- Kent State Tribunal. Sounds like something Specter would do.— AngryWhiteMale
Whenever I hear the call for a "Truth Tribunal", I am reminded of the Indiana Jones line "Archaeology is the search for fact... not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall." The facts are 4 people died that day because of many mistakes made by many people on all sides. Sadly the worst fact is that the 2 people who died weren't responsible for those mistakes (unless suddenly attending class is a mistake). This group isn't assembling to find "truth" or "facts" - they simply want to assign blame and 40 years later what good is that doing anyone? And Will, when you are describing the incident as a "massacre" you have already decided what the "truth" is to you.— bird11
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Instead of worrying about a government mistake 40 years ago, worry about the Obama administration's Katrina-like disaster brewing on the Gulf Coast. Their response to the oil spill is questionable at best.— jmc- There is no question it was a massacre. Four unarmed, peaceful people gunned down by National Guard Troops. What is still unknown is who was responsible. If this were a review of tapes to determine if a black man shot a white cop, those criticizing this would be demanding it take place. There is no statute of limitations on murder (not saying that is what this was, just saying it is one possibility). If there is a chance to solve a crime when it is still prosecutable, why would supposed law and order right wingers be opposed to this?
- "If there is a chance to solve a crime when it is still prosecutable, why would supposed law and order right wingers be opposed to this?" Where do you see any right wingers opposed to possibly solving a crime. I only see bird11 questioning whether this is truly an attempt at getting to the truth or is it grandstanding, and I see jmc saying that they should take care of more pressing issues first (though I'm sure that both current and past issues can be looked at simultaneously). But I don't see anyone against solving a crime.— legatus
- ---}}} I wonder if this tape analysis will detect the 15 people shouting the N-word that was recently fabricated by the government healthcare hucksters in Washington? {{{--- Good point. I hope no one doubts whether you have enough knowledge to call Lewis a liar. I mean, you were there, walking right next to Wilson the entire time, right?— Talking point sleuth
- Tom Selleck - the statute of limitation for manslaughter (which is about all you could imagine charging in this matter) in Ohio I believe is 20 years. The statutes are also expired for arson and agg assault on a peace officer. So IMHO no legal action will result from this. And just so you know, if this were a legitimate chance to convict a white man or wowan for the murder of any police officer you are right I would support.— bird11
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- ---}}} Otherwise, there is plenty of basis to call Lewis a liar. {{{--- Yeah, because you were there also, walking right next to Lewis (I don't know where I got Wilson from - not enough coffee yet). You, like Mr. Smith, know for a fact that he's lying. Because you have "evidence" that he's lying. You have proof that in that entire crowd of tea partiers, shouting at him at the top of their lungs, spittle flying from their mouths, not one person called him a n---. Yeah, you have the "evidence." Heh!— Talking point sleuth
- " You have proof that in that entire crowd of tea partiers, shouting at him at the top of their lungs, spittle flying from their mouths, not one person called him a n---. Yeah, you have the "evidence." Heh!" TPS, you are obviously intelligent enough to know that it is virtually impossible to prove a negative. Probably why our criminal justice system puts the burden on the government to prove a crime happened instead of having a defendent prove he didn't commit a crime.— bird11
- ---}}} the worst fact is that the 2 people who died weren't responsible for those mistakes {{{--- Not to excuse all the actions of the protesting students that day - but Regan's commission found that the National Guard fired indiscriminately into a crowd that was quite a distance away. Even those students "responsible" for mistakes didn't deserve to die because of irresponsible behavior on the part of law enforcement.— Talking point sleuth
- ---}}} TPS, you are obviously intelligent enough to know that it is virtually impossible to prove a negative. {{{--- Not sure why you're directing that at me, birdie. Batboy says he has "evidence" that Lewis is lying.— Talking point sleuth
- larrydalliopolis: I just hope I get your brain during my transplant. Then I'll be able to think as clearly as you do.— jmc
- TPS no where have I said anyone deserved to die, I was simply pointing out that 2 who did were true innocents just attending class that day which makes the mistakes more horrible. If any irony can be found in those whole sad incident it is that a bunch of college students, many of whom were probably enrolled to avoid service in Vietnam, were fired upon by National Guardsmen, many of whom probably enlisted to avoid service in Vietnam. (And I directed the other comment at you because I was quoting you)— bird11
- ---}}} I was simply pointing out that 2 who did were true innocents just attending class that day which makes the mistakes more horrible. {{{--- I don't get that, birdie. As I see it, all of the deaths were horrible - and they all resulted from irresponsible behavior by law enforcement. I'm not sure why some of the deaths were more horrible than other deaths. That some of the dead students might have been in an unruly crowd does not, in any way, justify shooting indiscriminate firing by National Guard.— Talking point sleuth
- "Not sure why you're directing that at me, birdie. Batboy says he has 'evidence' that Lewis is lying." Did he say that on another thread? I don't see where he's said it here. How can he have "evidence" of a negative anyway?— legatus
- TPS, are you dense? I am not justifying anyone shooting into a crowd. If you read what I said "that 2 who did were true innocents just attending class that day which makes the mistakes more horrible." See the words "more horrible"??? Only someone trying to nitpick wouldn't read that as the others also being horrible. Sorry, if I'm not allowed to believe the death of two students who were going to class was "more" horrible but you know its just my opinion.— bird11
- jmc, I thought you wingnuts WANTED there to be more offshore drilling - "Drill, baby, drill", remember? If they drill, they will spill - technology as complex as oil drilling will never be 100% accident-proof.— Yersinia Pestis
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- ---}}} I don't see where he's said it here. How can he have "evidence" of a negative anyway? {{{--- Heh! Right, leggy. Batboy isn't calling Lewis a liar, he's only saying that there is "plenty of basis to call Lewis a liar." Leggy, your ability to act as an apologists for rightwing lunatics is infinitely creative. I gotta hand you that. And once again - batboy is the one who says that there is plenty of evidence to prove Lewis a liar, and I'm simply laughing at batboy's claim. Lewis says that he was called a n-----, and batboy says that he has evidence that Lewis is lying. I'm not saying batboy should "prove a negative," so I have no idea why you boyz keep telling me that I am.— Talking point sleuth
- Why has Obama let this giant oil spill hit New Orleans? Who is respoonsible? Whi is in charge? How can they be so racist against the new Orleans people- who will pay for the clean up? How can we save the wildlife?— Manny Trillo
- "Truth Tribunal"? Bird, I read the story last night and maybe I missed something, but arn't they going to analyze a recording taken from a dorm room window? And what good will it do? I dunno, what good is knowing details of the history of the union movement of the early 20th century or the Trail of Tears of the one before that. To me history is not the generals, wars, industialists and such. A true history of a nation is a history of her people.— Hamlet
- "Heh! Right, leggy. Batboy isn't calling Lewis a liar, he's only saying that there is 'plenty of basis to call Lewis a liar'." My question had nothing to do with whether he called Lewis a liar or not...it concerned ~your claim~ that he said that he has ~evidence~ of such. Where does he say this, or even imply this? "Leggy, your ability to act as an apologists for rightwing lunatics is infinitely creative." I didn't apologize for anyone. I simply asked you where he made the claim that you said that he made. I even gave you the benefit of the doubt, in that maybe he said it on another thread and I hadn't seen it. It is clear to me now that you simply fabricated this "claim of evidence by 'batboy'". "And once again - batboy is the one who says that there is plenty of evidence to prove Lewis a liar, and I'm simply laughing at batboy's claim." But he never made that claim. His claim is that ~Lewis must produce the evidence~, otherwise there is basis to doubt the veracity of his claim. "Lewis says that he was called a n-----, and batboy says that he has evidence that Lewis is lying." Ummmm....no he certainly did not. "I'm not saying batboy should 'prove a negative,' so I have no idea why you boyz keep telling me that I am." We boyz (sic) are not claiming that you are saying that he should prove a negative. In my case I simply asked "how can he prove a negative", with my underlying assumption being that he is smart enough to know that this is impossible and therefore was not stupid enough to claim evidence of such. Clearly he never made any such claim, despite your assertion to the contrary.— legatus
Even though this detestable act occurred when Barack Obama was only eight or nine years old, why wouldn't we want to know?- BTW, I don’t think Will gave it the name “Kent State Massacre”. That’s all I have ever heard it called. Would you prefer we call it the Kent State Pillow fight?— Hamlet
- Kent State shooting???— bird11
- Kent State Target Practice?— Hamlet
- Kent State arson investigation?— bird11
- I'd like a "Truth Tribunal" for the claim that Obamacare will lower medical costs.— Bud Fox
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- For what it is worth, I was there when it happened....and the aiming and shooting I witnessed were deliberate. Micheners book was nonsense. ....never explaining that the city was largely cordoned off....you couldn't get out. Victims were given a pittance by the State of Ohio. But what is the point of of a 40 year old tape to determine if an order was given? A question of responsibility? The State of Ohio thought it was a grand conspiracy....I recall the 12 people who were indicted...even knew some of them....just kids...later the indictments were dropped. But seriously....even for those there....after all these years...who would be clear about what happened?— brightmoments99
- "The UN is awesome!" What a joke that Iran decision was. and these are the d-bags we should be listening to?— RG
- "Kent State arson investigation?" I've always wondered about the torching of the ROTC bldg and who really did it. Some extensive investigative work has been done over the years since about programs like COINTELPRO and found that often, the top people in the most radical student organizations were actually FBI agents. In other works, the government wanted to demonize concerned, rational college students and turn public opinion against them.— Hamlet
- "I've always wondered about the torching of the ROTC bldg and who really did it." Hamlet, you wouldn't want to wager that you will still be wondering at the end of the Truth Tribunal would ya?? (Sorry to be so cynical but I just have a hard time with anything involving Mike Moore being very truthee).— bird11
- --}}} I guess you believed Tawana Brawley too? {{{--- Heh! Good point, porky, anytime that any black person makes any claim, they are lying. And Tawana Browley proves that. Sorry I didn't understand that sooner. My bad. Just my opinion.— Talking point sleuth
- ---}}} Where does he say this, or even imply this? {{{--- Heh! Ok, so when batboy says... "otherwise [meaning, unless Lewis provides evidence of being called a n------] there is plenty of basis to call Lewis a liar.".... Should, in no way, say, or even imply, that Lewis is a liar. Sorry, leggy. I guess I got confused. Too funny.— Talking point sleuth
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- Yeah, I can understand your cynicism, Bird. IMO, Moore sometimes muddies an issue more than he shines light on it. And it is usually something I care about and would normally be on his side. It doesn’t take much to damage the credibility of any peoples movement or cause (real ones, not Astroturf – they have money and “media” backing…hush little ba…nevermind) . Anyway, when I first learned about Kent State in high school the burning of the ROTC bldg was an open and shut case. Now? Not so much.— Hamlet
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- ---}}} Ok, since you're obsessed with race, how about Susan Smith? {{{--- Good point, porky. Anytime that any person makes any claim, they are lying. Susan Smith proves that. And yeah - I'm obsessed with race. The proof is that you brought up a case of one person lying as evidence that another black person was lying. In your opinion.— Talking point sleuth
- "Should, in no way, say, or even imply, that Lewis is a liar. Sorry, leggy. I guess I got confused. Too funny" Actually you're almost right. When he says those things it does not say or even imply that he said that "has evidence that Lewis is a liar"....which is the flat-out lie for which you are trying to avoid accountability. But you ARE right about one thing....too funny!— legatus
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- Will, I'm missed your piece last July about the 40th anniversary of Chappaquiddick. Could you re-run that. Thx.— A Friend
- Also, leggy - kudos on this nifty little switcheroo. So, "otherwise there is basis call Lewis a liar" morphs into "otherwise there is basis to doubt the veracity of his claim." Oh yeah. "doubting the veracity of [Lewis's] claim" is exactly the same as "call[ing] Lewis a liar." Heh! The work of a master apologist. My compliments.— Talking point sleuth
- For my friend birdie - a potential double-post: Also, leggy - kudos on this nifty little switcheroo. So, "otherwise there is basis call Lewis a liar" morphs into "otherwise there is basis to doubt the veracity of his claim." Oh yeah. "doubting the veracity of [Lewis's] claim" is exactly the same as "call[ing] Lewis a liar." Heh! The work of a master apologist. My compliments.— Talking point sleuth
- TPS, you have me confused. Last time I checked Rep. John Lewis (D-GA) was a politician. Wasn't just a few weeks ago that you said you expect all politicians to lie when it is in their best interest? Why the defense of Lewis? I would think you assume he is lying - unless your previous statement was a lie.— bird11
- Hmmm -- not getting through the filter? Also, leggy - congrats on the artful recasting of batboy's post "Oherwise there is basis call Lewis a liar" changes into "otherwise there is basis to doubt the veracity of his claim." Oh yeah. "doubting the veracity of [a] claim" is exactly the same as "call[ing someone] a liar." Heh! The work of an expert apologist. My compliments.— Talking point sleuth
- larry, you really think it was an "accident" that Teddy left his girlfriend to drown? Wow, you are a convert.— pj katauskas
This just in: Obama will appoint a special bipartisan commission to investigate the XYZ affair of 1798.- pj, when you think about it Teddy and the Ohio NG have a lot in common. They both, too be kind, panicked (to be less than kind acted cowardly) - the difference is nobody will ever build a statue for the guardsmen.— bird11
- ---}}} Wasn't just a few weeks ago that you said you expect all politicians to lie when it is in their best interest? {{{--- Good point, birdie. You get a point. Finally.— Talking point sleuth
- "Good point, birdie. You get a point." With that point I pass Karl Malone on the all-time list - look out Kareem your next.— bird11
- In 1970, a Republican was president, so obviously it is the Republicans fault. Case closed.— pic man
- "For Randall, who runs a hardware store with his wife, Kelli, in his Indiana town of about 1,600, donating a kidney was the next step in his giving. When he was 18, the fresh-faced airman in the Air Force was driving through Arizona and a cop pulled him over for speeding. Instead of writing a ticket, the officer gave him a choice: "He said, 'You can go down and pay the fine or you can go donate blood,' " Randall said. "I had never done it before and thought 'Well, I'm going to donate blood.' "......MAN THOSE ARIZONA COPS ARE BASTARDOS - TAKING A MAN'S BLOOD JUST FOR SPEEDING— bird11
"The facts are 4 people died that day because of many mistakes made by many people on all sides." . . . . I thought they were shot by national guardsmen. What kind of mistake warrants that?- "I thought they were shot by national guardsmen. What kind of mistake warrants that?" MSL I'll direct you to my post of 925am. Where do I ever say it was justified or warranted or any other synonym you'd like to use? Certainly the guardsmen were at fault but a number of bad decisions by numerous people put them in the situation.— bird11
- Well, I'll be careful not to make any "mistakes" here, Bird. Fort Huachuca is not far away. I wouldn't want to give the US Army an excuse to shoot me down in the street in cold blood. I have long hair, have strong opinions and think the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are wrong. Thanks for the advise. You may have saved my life.— Hamlet
- Hamlet, let me be of further assistance, since you clearly think the mistakes I refer to are only on the part of the protesters. Don't engage in the destruction of property, don't throw rocks or other objects at police or soldiers trying to legally perform their duties, and don't ignore a legal order to disperse if you are in a crowd. Otherwise just follow the 1st amendment clause about "peaceable assembling" and you should be OK. And enjoy your long hair - finally gave in and cut mine a few years back it was making me look old.— bird11
- Bird, I know you think that the students should have been more peaceable and that they may have played a part in getting themselves (and the ones who were just walking to class) shot , but I say the solders had no right to fire on the students. What bothers me more is the people who think they did, or at least sympathize with solders. If it turns out their commanders ordered them to fire, this story gets even more horrible.— Hamlet
- Hamlet, even if they did feel they had a right to fire (which I don't) the fact that they could have felt that need was poor planning on someones part - you don't get yourself into a fenced in area. The whole thing was handled wrong beginning Friday night - you don't shut down the bars and force people into the street while there is a commotion in the streets for God's sake. Some responsibility should be taken by those who started the civil unrest - not as much as the guardsmen, carrying a weapon puts responsibility on them to use it wisely and legally - but some. Have a great weekend - I'm outta here. Be safe and did I mention I hate the Mets!!— bird11
- Thanks for clarifying your opinion on this, Bird. I didn’t think you thought the solders had a right to fire on the students (I have been reading your post for a while now, man). I just think you, like many other honest Americans, are willing to close the book on this like it was no big deal. I think otherwise and welcome reopening the case. Not to prosecute anyone, but to get the story right for posterity. It should be a warning to us, as Americans, that we can easily chose the wrong road and to strengthen our resolve to preserve American democracy. Have a great weekend.— Hamlet
- Tps....in reference to our discussion about your flat out lie re "batboy's" evidence.....ROTFLMAO!!!!!! You said your (ahem) rebuttal three times...I think you need to say it at least two or three more times and maybe you can get someone...anyone...to buy your tripe. I don't think you can even get your usual lackeys to buy into this one. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!— legatus
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- Joe, Will is a journalist. That means not only can he spell, he has a college degree. Wishing the world was like your Republican fantasy does not make it so.— Hamlet
- BTW, I don't know Will personally, nor do I seek to defend him. I'm just sick of ignorant people attacking journalists for doing their jobs. I defend him for what he represents.— Hamlet
- And to all those idiots who claim they are against "socialism" but say they get their news from the web and don't have to pay for it, the only way this can be sustained is if the news is paid by our taxes (something I am for). You staunch Republicans who think you should be paid for your work but think, somehow journalists live in a different universe and do not need to be paid. Let me tell you something, investigative journalism is very expensive. The old advertisement-paid news is a thing of the past. If you think the preservation of democracy is a national security issue in the United States and agree that a free press is part of that will agree that the only way to keep newspapers going and not dependent on government largess (I know this is counterintuitive, but it’s true) will push for government funded, but not government controlled, newspapers. And I, for one, think journalist should be well-paid. I make six figures, and I think good journalists should get the same.— Hamlet
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- Ohio Republican Gov Jim Rhodes - At a news conference in Kent, Ohio, on Sunday May 3, 1970, the day before the Kent State shootings, he said of campus protesters: - "They're worse than the Brownshirts, and the Communist element, and also the Night Riders, and the vigilantes. They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America." ---- Wow, not much has changed about some Republican Governors.— pal
- Hamlet, you don't seem like a bad person so two more bits of advice, 1) never let the government control journalism and expect the truth from anything the govt can or tries to control - journalism must make itself revelent. It can but it won't be profitable. Today too many people go for the news that validates their thought. I could easily watch Fox 24/7 and nod but I choose to read Bunch someone I rarely agree with and answer your post/comments/accusations - to do so makes me learn. 2) if you bet the derby include Jackson Bend in your exacta or trifecta. OK one more thing = say it with me = I HATE THE METS!! I don't hate you or Bunch I just disagree with you usually.— bird11
- Well when you're sitting back in your rose pink cadillac Making bets on Kentucky Derby Day Ah, I'll be in my basement room with a needle and a spoon And another girl to take my pain away— bird11
- Continuing evidence that the Federal government can be trigger happy against their fellow countrymen...— Mark Glaeser
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- Ok, say an order was given. What does Will want to do then?— pj katauskas
- A federal govt Truth Tribunal? Now there's an oxymoron for you.— pj katauskas
- Hey, Pesty, what's offshore drilling have to do with Kent State? Just curious to see how you connect the two.— pj katauskas
- Mayweather dominates again— RG
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- ///That means not only can he spell, he has a college degree./// Since when has it been required to have a college degree before calling yourself a "journalist", Hamlet? There's no requirement to have one, at all. Will's not a doctor, he's a writer for a daily newspaper. No more, no less.
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