UPDATED: Interrogation expert: Waterboarding set back bin Laden hunt by a couple of years
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UPDATED: Interrogation expert: Waterboarding set back bin Laden hunt by a couple of years
UPDATE: Here's the story, which is getting a wildly enthusiastic response so far (thank you!). Meanwhile, because so many of my commenters and emailers have expressed an open mind about both the effectiveness and the morality of torture, I thought you'd also like to read this excellent editorial in the New York Times:
There are many arguments against torture. It is immoral and illegal and counterproductive. The Bush administration’s abuses — and ends justify the means arguments — did huge damage to this country’s standing and gave its enemies succor and comfort. If that isn’t enough, there is also the pragmatic argument that most experienced interrogators think that the same information, or better, can be obtained through legal and humane means.
No matter what Mr. Yoo and friends may claim, the real lesson of the Bin Laden operation is that it demonstrated what can be done with focused intelligence work and persistence.
Here's a tease from my article in tomorrow's Daily News about the tortured debate over torture (link whenever it goes online):
Indeed, one former senior Air Force interrogator from the Iraq war, who has written two books under the pseudonym Matthew Alexander, told the Daily News last night he believes that the waterboarding of top bin Laden aides in the early 2000s may have actually slowed down the search by a couple of years.
Alexander — author of the recent Kill or Capture: How a Special Operations Task Force Took Down a Notorious al Qaeda Terrorist — said that waterboarding bin Laden aide Khalid Sheikh Mohammed phony leads about the terrorist’s courier, and a second al-Qaeda higher-up gave agents a fake name. “That led to the CIA wasting time and resources,” he said.
Do I mention yesterday that torture doesn't work, in addition to being illegal and immoral. I believe that I did.
Regarding the Leon Panetta comments that so many of you have made sure that I know about, I think the CIA director's actual words are pretty ambiguous and inconclusive (and Michael Smerconish, a longtime advocate of, ahem, "enhanced interrogation" agrees; he told me in an email for my article that "Panetta seemed to hedge with Brian Williams"). Remember, Panetta sees his mission as improving the morale of agents who were ordered to conduct the Bush-era torture -- which is why he's not the torture-blaster he was before taking the post. He also said it's an "open question" whether torture produces intel you can't get otherwise; Alexander told me what other skilled interrogators have also said: That torture produces lies and useless information.
But like Journey always said, don't stop believin', you torture enthusiasts out there.
The facts revealed about the treatment and subsequent conviction of the Guilford Four, Conlon in particular, will not allow me to support torture, ever. It's clear from their experiences that the continued duress heavily influenced them to sing away about what they thought the interrogators wanted and needed rather than what was truth -- all to stop the interrogators from torturing them. Conlon signed a blank confession, which of course was a major element of the prosecution.— Murrayman- Murrayman - your point is very valid, however, I would point out that getting a suspect to confess is very different then getting intelligence. For a confession the suspect knows exactly what you want to hear "Yes, I did it" but for intelligence you can't sign a blank form.
BTW my recollection is shady I thought it was Hill who signed the blank confession not Conlon.— bird11 - The Guilford four were guilty as sin, the only black mark in that case is we didn't kill them for the scum they were.
— PAEnglish - Will, look at the article in Time's Swampland where the head of Counterterrorism at the CIA said that waterboarding absoutely aided in the capture of Bin Laden. Will, you can take issue with the truth, but you are under a journalistic obligation not to lie about the truth. Shame on you.— CD75
- Probably, ineffective torture techniques caused the delay! Instead of waterboarding, perhaps being forced to read Bunch would have worked faster. "Waterboard or Bunch? Waterboard or Bunch? You broke me you bast***s! Waterboard me but no Bunch!"— Bucks County Mike
- CD75 -
You have been provided with detailed descriptions about how the information that Rodriguez says lead to the capture of OBL was, in fact, INCORRECT information about the courier's identity.
Rodriquez'a argument is that torture works because it produces unreliable information - a contradiction.
From the Swampland article:
--snip--
One former senior intelligence official says that “once KSM decided resistance was unwise, he started spilling his guts to the agency and started providing lots of info, like the noms de guerre of couriers and explaining how al-Qaeda worked.”
--snip--
The information that KSM gave about the courier was FALSE information.— Talking point sleuth - Will, while your smugness is entertaing, its also incomplete. How come you aren't hindsighting Gitmo and indefinite detention with no trial? Two things you were against but clearly played arole in capruring the intel that got OBL.— RG
- Sleuth, you can cut and paste all you want, but EIT's obviously worked. Just let this issue go because you are really making yourself look bad. Obama is not stopping it, either. Let it go.— Domenic
- Will, TPS, MSL, et al, if you are morally against torture, why waste time rehashing the past when you could be protesting the alleged treatment of Bradley Manning? Could it be that its not about principles, but rather politics for you?— RG
- I say we waterboard Will! Get him to tell us that he really works for.. Every week the same ole stuff. People dont need to read you anymore cause everyone knows what your gonna say. Please free up this space for something worthwhile. PLEASE...— G-Man
- you expect me to believe regular interrogation always gives accurate information. Don't u think they tried that first and got no where and then decided to say let's give him something to think about? Please, the enhanced techniques worked and gave the b*stard something to think about next time.— palmyra21
- ]]]=== Sleuth, you can cut and paste all you want, but EIT's obviously worked. ===[[[
Too funny. So, you'll just look at the facts, stamp your feet, and say "but, but, it worked" no matter what?
The cuts and pastes provide facts. The waterboarding elicited incorrect information. It was only years later, when the contrast of that incorrect information was apparent with correct information obtained via other means - that investigators realized the significance of the lies they were told as the result of the EITs.
For 8 years after KSM was waterboarded, we looked in the wrong places for OBL.
And yet, our much beloved Attytood Republican toadies (welcome back, Domonic) claim - on the basis of 10 years wasted and false information received - that "torture works."
8 years. Incorrect information.— Talking point sleuth - Water boarding is not torture, pulling out fingernails, putting a drill through the knee caps or elbows is torture. I was water boarded during a survival and evasion course, its unpleasant but isn't painful, I am assuming they get it for longer periods than I experienced but if left to me I would cut their nuts off with a piece of glass to get intel needed to keep westerners alive but hey that's just me.— PAEnglish
- let me state for the record i am in favor of torture.— rysagr
- ]]]=== You expect me to believe regular interrogation always gives accurate information. ===[[[
Perhaps you could point to where ANYONE made such a claim?
]]]=== Don't u think they tried that first and got no where and then decided to say let's give him something to think about? ===[[[
That fits the descriptions of what happened. The descriptions also detail how, when tortured, KSM told them lies about the courier, as did others when tortured.
You see, that is why most experienced interrogators say that torture is an unreliable technique. Of course, then you have to deal with the fact that military experts, like Petraeus, say that it is also counterproductive.
Interesting how no one in the "torture works" crows has ANYTHING to say about that issue, isn't it?
Of course, that is why we love our Attytood Republican toadies - because they lack of ability to address issues like that makes their sycophantism so blatantly obvious.— Talking point sleuth
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