Hard to believe, Harry -- a deep look what really happened with Katrina comes to Philly
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Hard to believe, Harry -- a deep look what really happened with Katrina comes to Philly
You never know who you'll see in Philadelphia. This afternoon I stumbled across the storied Italian soccer club Juventus F.C., which is somewhat quietly staying in a Center City hotel this week to train for a series of North American matches (none of which, weirdly enough, are in Philly). However, I stumbled right past them to say hello to another legend who's in town right now -- a Friend of Attytood, believe it or not -- and that would be comedian/actor/radio host/political hellraiser Harry Shearer.
Hey, how often do you get to talk with Mr. Burns AND Derek Smalls in one fell swoop?
But Shearer's not in Philadelphia for those things. He's on a mission -- and it's an important one: To make sure that people understand the truth of what really almost destroyed his adopted hometown of New Orleans when Hurricane Katrina struck, so that we make damn sure it never happens again. He's written and produced a hard-hitting documentary called The Big Uneasy, (watch the trailer) to help keep America's eye on the ball in Katrina's wake.
As summed up in the Village Voice:
Shearer’s documentary is a scathing indictment of the Army Corps—not only its staggering incompetence but also the scope of its power to sabotage outside investigators and steamroll dissenting voices. But it’s not just the Army Corps that the film prosecutes. Ecologists and environmentalists weigh in on how corporate greed and shortsightedness from decades ago to today have led to devastating losses of the wetlands, which are nature’s own defense against the destruction of hurricanes.
He'll be screening the movie and answering questions at the Ibrahim Theatre at International House on the Penn campus at 3701 Walnut Street tomorrow (Friday) night at 7 p.m. (More info here.) Please check it out. Maybe if you're nice he'll also say, "Smithers, unleash the hounds!" -- but I kind of doubt it.
I'm also recommending outside entertainment since you won't have Attytood to kick around for nearly three weeks. I'll be back later in August, by which time the Daily News will be completely redesigned but no one will be able to afford it because the United States will have defaulted on its debts and we'll all be wearing those wooden barrels instead of clothes. Should be fun!
Comments (299)
Oh yes, the EVIL Army Corps of Engineers conspired to create the chaos of Katrina. LOL. Bunch you're a waste. You need a vacation. Like one for a few years. BTW, You need to call the local cooper to make you an XXXXL.— blackhawk90- blackhawk you have no idea (as usual) what you are talking about. The Army Corps of Engineers corruption and incompetence (aided by government officials at all levels no doubt)is what allowed Katrina to flood and devastate New Orleans. Beyond that, I stopped making fat jokes when I was in the seventh grade. Grow up.— BillHicksLives!
- BillHicksLives - please tell your leftwing friends to grow up and stop making fat jokes about Chris Christie.— Thoughtful&concernedvoter
- How can you take a vacation knowing that the poor can't even get government issued sunscreen?— jmc
Comment removed.- Wasn't Katrina 5 years ago??? Get over it!— Timo3004
Timo, I condemn you to repeating history.- When you learn from the failed experiments in socialism and communism then you can talk. Will Bunch and his like hates freedom and individuality. They want a strong central government telling you what toilet paper to use, what light bulbs you can have, how much electricity you are alloted, how much of the American Dream you can make. If you make over $250k as a couple you are evil and need to hand over the rest. He obviously was abused as a child and is looking for a soft dictatorship to help him through.
— MoRacker - Comment removed.
- The Will Bunch blame game again - now it's the Army Corps of Engineers. How about when the Louisiana purchase occurred the whole area was at or below sea level. When man messes with the environment and mother nature, man generally loses. There is a reason that if you drive south from Margate through Ventnor - and keep going - that the street names stop at 11th street - there is not tenth through first. Guess the Army Corps of Engineers spent a summer down there. You're an idiot.— Taranis
- Drive south fom Margate though Ventnor? Yeah, I'd say it's a stretch blaming the Corps for reversing the earth's poles.
- "blackhawk you have no idea (as usual) what you are talking about" . . . . . . Bill, let's take it easy on Blackie. As a child, didn't you ever lash out in anger when daddy had to go away for a few weeks?
- I wonder if there'll ever be a documetary made that's a "scathing indictment" of the dummies who - after being told for a week that Katrina was going to hit - stayed where they were. If I were in that situation and saw the satalite photos of the impending storm - my family and I would have evacuated well ahead of it. But that's what life is - we make our own choices - right?— michael_b
- "I wonder if there'll ever be a documetary...." . . . . . michael_b, I wonder why you can't make it yourself? Obviously you've lived through many hurricanes.
- No, Monty - I've never lived through a hurricane as big as Katrina - and I'm certainly not as bright as you are - that's why I couldn't make my own documentary. Feel better? — michael_b
- "I've never lived through a hurricane as big as Katrina" . . . . . Maybe the folks in New Orleans hadn't either. Hindsight is 20/20 though.
- So, just because one has never lived through a hurricane as big as Katrina - that means one should not heed the warnings that were issued for a week prior to the storm making landfall --- and EVACUATE? Monty, I'm beginning to think you dimwitted, not bright. — michael_b
- LOL, again, feel free to produce your documentary. After all, evacuating a million people hundreds of miles on a few days warning is just a matter of common sense, right? It's happened so many times before, which I'm sure you'll document for us.
- Well, Monty - I'm sure you know the population of NO was 484,000 prior to Katrina. 80% of which were evacuated. "A million" would be an exageration.... and it has happened before - 2011 (Fukushima), 2008 (Huricane Gustav), 2007 (California wildfires - just to name a few. It's OK to admit you're wrong sometimes... — michael_b
- Well Mike, I'm sure you know the NO metro area had at least a million people. And apparently you'll settle for less than 100% evacuation as a measure of success, so I'm no longer clear on what your complaining about. Try again.
- You're muddying the waters again, Monty. The stats I've seen put the pre-Katrina population of NO at less than 500,000 with an evac rate of around 80%. Any evac less than 100% is troubling... and I'm not complaining - I'm simply presenting an under"documented" part of the situation - and that is that some people CHOSE not to leave the effected area even after they were given plenty of warning. And when the storm devastated them they blamed everyone but themselves. — michael_b
- ///To make sure that people understand the truth of what really almost destroyed his adopted hometown of New Orleans when Hurricane Katrina struck,///
That shouldn't be too much of a mystery. What almost destroyed it was a big frigging hurricane.— General Turgidson - A big frigging hurricane which was created by George W. Bush's secret CIA operatives in their unmarked black helicopters who wanted to purge Louisiana of as many Democratic voters as possible.
- ///The Army Corps of Engineers corruption and incompetence (aided by government officials at all levels no doubt)is what allowed Katrina to flood and devastate New Orleans. ///
And here I thought it was a hurricane that flooded and devastated New Orleans. Turns out it was the government incompetence, the same government I should now trust my healthcare to. Who knew?— General Turgidson - LOL, well you can always trust BP, I guess, or maybe that Japanese nuclear energy company. But who you gonna call when your million dollar beachfront property starts to erode? The local landscaper?
- They should have plowed New Orleans under after that hurricane. It is the only city in the country dumpier than Philly. Blaming the army engineers & government is total stupidity (and I hate government). Eventually, that city will have another hurricane and hopefully this time it will be destroyed forever....— kelprod2
- Chris Christie is my favorite fat joke.— Mr. Baseball
- You mean the same BP and nuke company that we and the Japanese spent tax dollars regulating?— RG
- Not sure about the Japanese, but the same BP that spends its huge tax windfalls buying off the regulators. Of course, if you're saying the regulators control how they operate their business, then you'd have to credit gubmint for the profits they make for their shareholders as well.
- I've always suspected that Katrina was a racist, greed driven plot by evil corporations, but I never thought the Armp Corps of Engineers were involved. Or so says the voice of Mr. Burns, who presumably by living through a hurricane is now an expert on them in MSLs eyes.— RG
- Yes, if we just taxed BP more, regulatirs would magically be more competant or honest.— RG
- No, they'd fire their lobbyists and hire new ones. Didn't you ever run a corporation, RG?
- I'll tell you what. Taxing them less hasn't worked, so why not make them pay their fair share?— HandNik
- Gotta give credit to MSL for consistency. There is no problem that a tax hike can't solve.
1) ID problem
2) raise taxes
3) ??????
4) problem solved!— RG - If they used stimulus dollars to hire new lobbyists would that count as a job created or saved?— RG
- LOL, so you started with blaming the regulators, to blaming taxation, and now blaming the stimulus? What's next, RG, blaming gay marriage for corporate misdeeds?
- I wonder if this "documentary" will address the abject lack of leadership common sense shown by the governor and mayor involved. Storm coming-get out! Really stupid people!— georgel
- What all you keyboard genius' fail to grasp is that New Orleans suffered from a man made disaster. It was the failure of the levees that caused the flooding and the Army Corps knew they wouldn't hold. Study after study indicated this and nothing was done. They would have survived the hurricane if the levees had held. The blame fall directly on the Army Corps and the government that you right wing loonies love to hate.— oldlion
- oldlion, wake up. Gubmint's only to blame when a Democrat's in charge of it.
- Ive lost the argument because I mocked the stimulus? Please, expound on your brilliant argument that taxing BP will make regulators do their job. This'll be interesting, if the counselor even bothers an attempt to defend his position.— RG
- That's your strawman, not mine RG. Go play with it yourself. I point out corporate influence over government regulation, and you have no answer.
- Monty, since you're on a roll - can you point out - exactly - what corporate influence effected the "failure" of the Army Corp during Katrina? I mean, that's what this post is about, right? — michael_b
- Then why not take Shearer's word on why the Corps failed? Or was it the "dummies" who are to blame?
- The fact that the Corp failed is a tragedy - perhaps criminal. However, the fact that 100,000 people chose to disregard the warnings - given waaay ahead of landfall - made this disaster a thousand times worse. Maybe selfish dummies would have been a better description, you're right. — michael_b
- RG is the Quantum Cynic - just the act of observing their childlike blathering changes it into a completely different argument! Uh, oh, here it is --- RG so the stimulus failed because --- you said it did. Oldlion I couldn't agree more -- instead its turned into a conspiracy plot (with black helicopters). Amazing. The people have become privy to the cover up.— Murrayman
- Obtuse as always msl. You stated they used their tax windfall to buy regulators, insinuating that the tax windfall is the cause. Im well aware of regulatory capture, and no I dont try to answer it as its unavoidable. You work on the idiotic theory that regulators arent greedy or self interested.— RG
- Who's being obtuse, RG? If you can't see the irony in what I posted earlier, I can't help you. How did BP get its tax breaks to begin with? Just saying please?
- And by the way, I work on the theory that every human soul is greedy and self interested, including yours and mine. That's why gubmint had to be invented, and later the principle of democracy to regulate it. You expect it to be a perfect system, or no system at all. But then, I suspect you'd prefer life before the Republican Progressive movement showed us democracy's potential as a check on greed.
- Does that make you the Pollyanna mouthpiece, murray? The stimulus didnt work because UE is 9% and theres no recovery. Its quite simple despite your arm waving and jargon dropping.— RG
- Lobbying. If the government werent in the biz of handing out favors, why would they lobby? Why were lobbying dollars at an all time high when HCR and Dodd Frank were being written? Write a sweeping law affecting industry and expect them to lobby to influence it. Lobbying by the AARP is exactly why you wont see SS reform til its to late. And did the UAW not loby for the auto bailout?— RG
- Comment removed.
- Exactly, coach... and the lessons I took from Katrina are 1) -always take hurricane warning seriously and 2) -if I don't heed the warnings I don't expect the government to swoop in and immediately make my life whole again. In fact, it's best not to expect a much from the government - it's a bad habit. — michael_b
- 3) If you live in a flood-prone area, BUY FLOOD INSURANCE! For cryin' out loud, the Feds sell this stuff at highly-subsidized premium rates.
- MSL, you do realize gov is staffed by greedy humans, and providing them with more money and power may not be a good idea?— RG
- RG forget those stats --- this is the time to start finding specific examples of out of work folks who can't find jobs and then tie it to the stimulus to conclude that it failed. First you data mine, then composition. Keep to the plan.— Murrayman
- "If the government werent in the biz of handing out favors, why would they lobby?" . . . . . Is that what the Constitution says government should do? Sell favors to the highest bidder? Are you admitting that we need to reform government to eliminate Congress and provide more direct popular control over government?
- Comment removed.
- Popular control? Already done when they allowed direct election of Senators. Its not like citizen groups like AFSCME and AARP dont lobby for favors. We need a limited gov that doesnt hand out favors.— RG
- "We need a limited gov that doesnt hand out favors." . . . . . Easier said than done. How do you propose we accomplish that? Give the election of Senators back to state legislatures?
- A whole hour and no reply from RG? Must be working on that bunker. I seem to forget that RG sees no hope, and has no answers.
- Funny, lifecoachservices4liberals, that you are wrong again. Its almost like the world as experiences by the Conservative is still the one experienced by the ancients -- full of unexplained phenomena chalked up to the will of a wrathful god(s) and mystical, unknown happenings controlled by the Hand. Lol - maybe Katrina was put upon NO for being evil?— Murrayman
- "Funny, I thought it was a 100 yr hurricane and the genius of building a city below sea level that caused the disaster" . . . . . LOL, so the free market that induced the growth of New Orleans is to blame? Where's a commie gubmint ecologist when you need one?
- Lol, havent you had enough Hope and Change, MSL? Whered I claim to have answers that solve human nature? Democracies come and go, and.will remained flawed.— RG
- I concur RG. Your only answer is building that bunker, because human nature just can't be trusted.
- ///LOL, well you can always trust BP, I guess, or maybe that Japanese nuclear energy company. But who you gonna call when your million dollar beachfront property starts to erode? The local landscaper? ///
The very definition of a straw man argument provided by MSL. Since when were BP or TEPCO considered healthcare companies? C'mon Jesco, please don't tell me you use such weak logic when representing your clients.— General Turgidson - You compared healthcare to the work of the Army Corps, not me. Your strawmen can't handle more strawmen? Poor things.
- ///But who you gonna call when your million dollar beachfront property starts to erode? The local landscaper?//
If I could even afford a million dollar beachfront home, my first call when the property erodes would be to my insurance company, not the government. I hope that level of common sense would get through to you, Jesco.— General Turgidson - And your only answer is to double down on a corrupt, broke govt in hopes thst they'll get it right this time. All because you dont trust to voluntary actions of individuals.— RG
- LOl, I trust you'll voluntarily make a great bunker RG. As for me, I want to talk reforms. You don't have any ideas, and I can appreciate that. You be your government of one in your bunker, and I'm sure the rest of humanity will leave you alone.
- And your ideas to reform entitlements are opposed by a 50 mil strong special interest group that would rather protect their gov favor than sacrifice anything. This is how democracy truly works. At least until the money runs out. At that point my bunker wil be worth alot more than your Treasuries or false hope. Blog away with your solutions, reality approaches.— RG
- LOL, don't blow a fuse RG. I understand. You just come here to whine, like any hack would, e.g., somebody's friend below. So long as you agree then that there's no reason to take you seriously, we can talk baseball or vittles. Why do you care what the rest of humanity does anyway?
- "As for me, I want to talk reforms..." That's encouraging. Pie-in-the-sky reform discussions will begin at the Int'l House tonight after the movie.— A Friend
MSL I have a bunker on my property you can buy if you want ? whats the going rate for bunkers BTW ?— PAEnglish- Its quite telling that the reforms you want to talk about are often higher taxes and expanded government. IOW, you'd like to use democracy to tax others for the stuff you want.— RG
- ///You'd never get insurance without protection from erosion dummy.///
Not true, dummy. Ever been through Malibu? Plenty of houses there right on the beach with no erosion protection. That's just one example. Nice try though.— General Turgidson - Okay, live in Malibu. Don't mind the mudslides and earthquakes. What's that have to do with beachfront erosion on the east coast? Somebody below tried to mention the experience of Longport, NJ, but sorta botched it, but I'm sure folks on Absecon Island don't mind the Army Corps' efforts to stem nature.
- //You compared healthcare to the work of the Army Corps, not me. Your strawmen can't handle more strawmen? Poor things. ///
Eh, no I didn't Jesco. I compared TRUST in the army corp of engineers to trust in the government to provide my healthcare. At least there's a connection between the two, that being the federal government. With your example, there isn't even a tenuous connection.
No wonder you practice law in West Virginia.— General Turgidson - And so I compared TRUST in private health insurance to TRUST in the private oil and energy companies. Are you simple? Explain why that's a poor comparison, rather than whine about your own strawman being challenged by another.
- MSL, are you under the delusion that you're taken seriously? If so, that alone brightened my day. Now go opine on the socio economic meaning of Gilligans Island. Or bills diaper. Because you're oh so serious about fixing the worlds problems.— RG
- Why do you care so much RG? You agree you can't be taken seriously either. Can't we talk about the weather or something? How bout those Pirates, eh?
- Liberals are arguing against Big Government? The heat certainly has kicked in. If Big Government can't protect a few hundred thousand dopes who want to live below sea level on a de facto peninsula in a hurricane-prone area then how is it going to run the entire health care system? Do you notice that the only whining about Katrina is coming from NO? She shellacked a fair portion of the coast but only the wards of the state complain about having their lives disrupted. If Murrayman is looking for a true correlation he should chart whining vs. personal responsibility. I see that slope coming in at -1.— 2ndNlong
- Since you waited anxiously over an hour for one of my responses, when I cant be taken seriously, you should ask yourself why you care so much.— RG
- Why are folks talking about "government providing healthcare?" WhoTF is suggesting that "government provide healthcare?"
You fellas are awfully cranky today.— Talking point sleuth - Well RG should we take you seriously or not?
- ===]]] LOL, so you started with blaming the regulators, to blaming taxation, and now blaming the stimulus? What's next, RG, blaming gay marriage for corporate misdeeds [[===
Shorter RG = "Hey. Look. Squirrel!!!!"— Talking point sleuth - Whats the matter, MSL, can't make up your own mind? That explains your big government fetish.— RG
- I thought I did. Yet you continue to respond ambivalently or not at all. Talk about lack of resolve.
- ///Don't mind the mudslides and earthquakes. What's that have to do with beachfront erosion on the east coast?///
Oh, so now it has to be specific to the east coast? In the real world, this is called moving the goal posts.
//Somebody below tried to mention the experience of Longport, NJ, but sorta botched it, but I'm sure folks on Absecon Island don't mind the Army Corps' efforts to stem nature.///
And what makes you think those folks would be living there so close to the water without the army corps providing a false sense of security?— General Turgidson - You're hilarious General. It's quite obvious no one can take you seriously. Who moved the goal post to Malibu? Absecon Island too big a goal post for you?
- ===]]] Whats the matter, MSL, can't make up your own mind? That explains your big government fetish. [[[===
Translation = "Hey. Look. Squirrel!!!!!!!"— Talking point sleuth - Don't laugh. I bet that squirrel's freeloading on the nuts RG's hording for the bunker.
- Congrats, MSL, you've morphed into TPS with the use of hilarious and the habit of speaking for everyone else on the blog.— RG
- I don't see TPS complaining. Only you. Awww, you really do care about something after all, don't you?
- Msl, it was you who mentioned beachfront property in a discussion about NO. General pointed out insurance isnt necessary in Malibu. Thats when you dishonestly insisted the discussion was solely about the east coast. Instead of.admiting you were wrong, you moved the goal posts. Speaks to your utter intellectual dishonesty.— RG
- The only intellectual dishonesty I see is the inability to respond to my Absecon Island example. What does Malibu have to do with beachfront erosion, if there's no beachfront erosion there? Does the latter not exist, simply by virtue of Malibu? But of course, when you can't answer, cry intellectual dishonesty, right?
- LOL, never mind..... http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-beach31-2008dec31,0,7928541.story
- ===]]] I bet that squirrel's freeloading on the nuts RG's hording for the bunker. [[[===
Yet another member of that "parasite class."— Talking point sleuth - In that case, it's hopeless for RG. He's already conceded defeat to the parasite class, so what's the use if nature itself is on the dole
- Who is Harry Shearer, and why should we care what he has to say?— junethe4th
- I have read all the posts and have come to one conclusion. MSL's opinion is the only one that matters and no one else can be taken seriously. It took me 52 years to figure out my thoughts are irrelevant.— TKL008
- ===]]] In that case, it's hopeless for RG [[[===
Not just him, MSL. We're all doomed unless we can figure out a way to keep squirrels, mice, and even ants out of our bunkers.
Doomed, I say!
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!! SAVE TH E WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!! OUR SOCIETY IS COMING TO AN END!!!
TO THE BUNKERS!!!— Talking point sleuth - It's hard for RG to come to the realization that capitalists don't have enough spine to stop asking gubmint for favors. It's not supposed to be that way in RG's utopia. Power and wealth are supposed to repel each other naturally, you know, like so much BP crude in the gulf. It shouldn't require the will of the People at all. In his bunker, maybe it will be different, and his brain can blissfully put his parasitic physical organs on austerity measures for eternity.
- If I were you, I'd laugh off my dishonesty as well, MSL. Glad you at least could admit to being wrong. It makes it even more humorous that you were arrogantly wrong.— RG
- During your goalpost move, you claimed there was no Malibu erosion. You then followed it up with an argument that there is indeed Malibu erosion. So once again, why'd you insist on focusing the debate on NJ erosion?— RG
- I see your confusion. The General claimed that Malibu residents don't need federal flood insurance, despite no "erosion protection". Unless he was agreeing with my original premise, he implied that Malibu didn't need protection or flood insurance. Obviously it does.
- Every time I look at the US budget, nearly 45% of it is for entitlements, not payoffs to capitalists. A sizable portion of the rest is spent regulating the capitalists, or more precisely doing nothing. Now, when the budget busts, whod do you think will need government more? Grannies on the dole who never bothered to save, or capitalists who provide goods and services that people want? I hope you and TPS, the two bleeding heart liberals, are ready to put up your own cash to support the grannies. But I doubt it. You'll slink away shaking your fist and those darn capitalists who refused to share.— RG
- "whod do you think will need government more? Grannies on the dole who never bothered to save, or capitalists who provide goods and services that people want?" . . . . . Capitalists, hands down, since there'd no longer be protection for their wealth, or protection of the means to create more. The People will care for each other. We're not a Christian nation, but we're a Christian people, RG. Something you wont' need to worry about in your bunker.
- MSL, I'd suggest you stop lying. Here's your quote at 3:10 "What does Malibu have to do with beachfront erosion, if there's no beachfront erosion there?"
The article states that emergency permits were given for residents to use sandbags as erosion protection, meaning it was a recent step. Unless the houses were uninsured up until the residents added the sand bags, General's point stands. And you still can't admit to moving the goals posts from beachfront in general to NJ specifically..— RG - Of course, I was responding to this from the General:
"///You'd never get insurance without protection from erosion dummy.///Not true, dummy. Ever been through Malibu? Plenty of houses there right on the beach with no erosion protection. That's just one example. Nice try though."
First of all, Malibu is protected by a seawall, which means the homes, if not the beach itself, are protected. Secondly, homeowners insurance won't pay for flooding. As I pointed out to him, he'd need federal flood insurance. And as is now clear, it's needed.
- And what is Malibu's attraction? The beach itself. Let that go, and home values go with it.
- "We're not a Christian nation, but we're a Christian people" Yet they'll turn on the capitalists as you insinuate? Logic, msl. Try to keep it consistent.— RG
- Oh, the people will spare the capitalists lives, I'm sure, but not necessarily their claim to land or warehouses of food, medicine, etc. Once those are depleted, what will the capitalists do?
- "The People will care for each other." Yeah, MSL. medications, treatments, food, and shelter for the elderly will all the sudden be free. No need for other peoples money. If thats the case, why rely on government to provide that stuff now, genius? You've made ,y case for me, thanks.— RG
- LOL, there won't be any money you idiot, unless the capitalists create a new government. Wow, you're dense.
- "there won't be any money you idiot" Really? Currency will just go away if we don't raise the debt ceiling? Currency only exists because of government ? Would the capitalists magically lose their hard assets as well? Their productive capacity to mass produce things people need? You haven't really thought out this theory, have you?
But once again, I'll ask: if you don't need money to care for others, why do you currently insist that we take it from people to spend on others?— RG - LOL, I thoguht it didn't matter what happened, RG, the system was doomed. So now you imply there's hope, eh? Oh, please do elaborate. How will the capitalist system survive?
- "but not necessarily their claim to land or warehouses of food, medicine, etc. " Oh, so the Christian people of this nation will loot. I guess they'll just skip over that pesky commandment about stealing. Logic, msl. Try to keep it consistent. Or be honest for once in your lying life and stop touting the revolt as Christian, and admit its a socialist/Marxist one.— RG
- It is good to see you've finally cut through it all to show your true colors. Your optimistic hope for the future is that you might be able to loot some free swag from others that had more than you. It is kinda sad that your entire worldview is shaped and driven by envy.— RG
- LOL, envy is what drives greed, the whole premise of capitalism. Are you now restating your view of human nature?
- "the system was doomed." The social welfare system is doomed. And you know it. Peoples wants and desires will always exist, and capitalism has shown to be quite adept at fulfilling them.— RG
- Oh? The social welfare system is no longer going to take the whole show with it? And this will all magically happen without government? Please, feel free to elaborate.
- "I'm sure, but not necessarily their claim to land or warehouses of food, medicine, etc. " I'm sure your Christian friends will stop at just the capitalists, right? They wouldn't dare question your claim to land, food, etc? They just selectively choose when to respect property. Once again, you really haven't thought this out, have you?— RG
- There's a distinct difference between greed and envy. A dictionary would tell you that. Greed does not necessarily spring from envy.— RG
- "The social welfare system is no longer going to take the whole show with it?" Cut entitlements and balance the budget. We borrow 44% of what we spend, which is almost the exact size of the budget that entitlements take up.— RG
- "Cut entitlements and balance the budget." . . . . Okay, but since your capitalsists don't run the govenment (right?), you'll need to convince the People. I thought that wasn't possible in a democracy of envious rabble.
- "What's "stealing" without law defining and protecting property rights," Then what makes you think they'll be content stealing only the capitalists stuff? Looters don't tend to be satisfied with a little swag. They'd come for your stuff, too. And stealing and property rights have long been discussed as terms of natural rights.— RG
- "you'll need to convince the People." No, lenders will force it on the people. Just like Greece. They'll just stop lending until cuts are made. Haven't you been following the news?— RG
- "And will it be the capitalists who come to rescue us from ourselves?" i'm fairly sure the capitalists can buy a nice army of mercenaries and security from the unemployed. How are you going to stop the looting horde?— RG
- Right. And that then is government. Coercion by force, and all that stuff that preys on your individual liberty. See, this isn't that hard, is it?
- "How can they force anything without government?" Focus, msl. We've already established government would exist, as budgets would forcibly be balanced when lenders, ie Treasury buyers stop buying until spending is cut. Forced austerity.— RG
- "Coercion by force" Protecting their property from looters somehow equates to forced coercion?— RG
- I thought you said their armies would protect us from oursleves. Not so, now? Then what good is capital without a people under control?
- The capitalists will do what they always have, protect their capital. We'll still have a choice on whether or not to buy their product. A choice, BTW, that the government doesn't offer. Ask Wesley Snipes.— RG
- Again RG, the lenders will need the government, which presumably is the People. We still get to vote, right? And we control the mechanisms of force, right?
- "Again RG, the lenders will need the government" If the lenders needed government, then why aren't they lending to Greece, et al at lower rates? And the lenders are often foreign. There have been many nations locked out of debt markets because of high debt levels: Argentina, Russia, the Asian crisis.— RG
- Come on RG. How can we trust the government of, by, and for the People to help the lenders?
- "Without government, what do you think the choice will be?" w/o gov, we'll all be forced to drink Coke. Unless Pepsi pulls off a dramatic upset in the cola wars— RG
- Okay, but at what price? You'll need to fund and manage an infrastructure of water supply, transportation, subsidized farms, etc. Is my Coke still going to be just a dollar? And how will I obtain that dollar?
- "How can we trust the government of, by, and for the People to help the lenders?" The lenders, often foreign, can simply choose not to lend at the rates the gov wants to borrow at. Its happening now in Greece.— RG
- LOL, so what? We can tax our wealth, Greece can't. Who needs foreign lenders?
- "And we control the mechanisms of force, right?" So we should force others to lend to us? For an optimist, you're pretty violent. Looting, now forced lending.— RG
- LOL, well you see what we're capable of when our oil is on the line. You think finance is any different?
- "You'll need to fund and manage an infrastructure of water supply, transportation, subsidized farms, etc." And this issue doesn't exist if the capitalists lose and the "people" win? Or does government have special knowledge on how to do these things?— RG