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Monday, November 24, 2008

Sad as it to contemplate on a bitter November night, there will come a sunny day seven or eight months from now when Johan Santana and his New York Mets are going to shut our world champion Philadelphia Phillies down cold. How could it not happen?...Santana, a baffling lefty with possibly the best change-up in baseball, is unhittable on his best days, which is why the Mets are paying him as astonishing $137.5 million over six years. While it's always frustrating when your team has to face an ace like Johan Santana, there's one thing about it that is absolutely infuriating about it out.

You are now paying to help make it happen.

OK, so it was one thing when they started using billions upon billions of our tax dollars to bail out brain-dead wheeler-dealer CEOs who bet compulsively and hugely unsuccessfully on acronyms that they don't understand any more than you or I do, or when some guy named Hank -- who none of his voted for -- decided that he was a king when it came to deciding how to dole out the federal jewels that you underwrote. These events of the Great Collapse of 2008 you could have almost lived with.

But now the federal government is basically bailing out the pennant chances of the much-hated -- especially round these parts -- New York Mets. That is unconscionable.

How could this be? You see, the Mets were already a pretty rich team thanks to all those cable TV eyeballs in greater NYC, but they needed even more dollars to be able to sign the Santanas and the Carlos Delgados ($52 million, four years) and Carlos Beltrans (seven years, $119 million) of the world. They needed to replace decrepit Shea Stadium with a spanking new ballpark that would offer all sorts of new revenue streams, especially luxury suites for all those Wall Street high rollers in New York. But New York City found itself low on cash after 9/11, and the Mets would have to raise most of the dough for a new Queens ballpark from elsewhere (although NY taxpayers have ended up paying more than they bargained for.)

That's when the Mets found they had a friend...in Citigroup. The nation's largest bank, a major consumer banking presence in the New York market, was so eager to place its name atop the Ebbetts Field lookalike stadium that is underwriting some 40 percent of the team's cost for building the ballpark, some $20 million a year over 20 years, or $400 million. The announcement of the ballpark and the prominent role for Citigroup coincided with the upsurge in Mets spending on premium baseball talent. Who knew that Citigroup -- under the rock-solid advice of former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin -- planned to pay for this all with risky trades of now-worthless paper backed by an overblown housing bubble?

This weekend, Citigroup showed up in Washington, hat in hand, saying that its bank would collapse, and take the economy of the free world along with it, if the financial giant didn't get $300 billion in cash money and in guarantees... like, yesterday. The government, with no public debate, was more than willing to back this new scheme, but surely there were some preconditions, right? Surely, the $400 million vanity plate of placing your name across the top of a glitzy new stadium (which honors Jackie Robinson with a rotunda but features sky-high ticket prices so only inside traders can attend the games) would have to go. Right? Right?

Wrong. Welcome to Opening Day at Bailout Field.

AIG, Citibank and a number of other federally bailed-out financial institutions have no plans to cancel hundreds of millions of dollars in sports team sponsorships, even as they take billions in taxpayer support, ABC News has found.

In boom times, the sponsorships were seen as a way to advertise the firms' "brands" and appeal to potential customers.

Justin Rood's story for ABC News adds:

Citicorp is not reviewing its deal with the Mets, chief financial officer Gary Crittenden said in an interview Monday. Crittenden told CNBC the contract was "legal and binding" and "not an issue."

Last week, a bank spokesman defended the arrangement, saying that "there is absolutely no relationship between our sports marketing expenses, including Citi Field," and the government funds it had already received.

What about the 52,000 hard-working people that Citigroup is laying off -- more people that the new ballpark can accommodate? There's no relationship between that and doling out $20 million a year in sports welfare? As for marketing, I think most taxpayers are now aware of Citi without the ballpark. In fact, hearing "live from Citi Field" before every game will make people hate Citigroup even more.

Look, you can point to the irony here: That Citibank and the Mets are both big-time losers who choke in the clutch. This September, certainly, the Mets and Citibank's stock price were racing to see who could plummet faster. There's also a new irony in that many (but not all ) of the Wall Street Masters of the Universe who are supposed to buy all those luxury boxes in Bailout Field are now flat busted. Heh.

But those losses were in 2008 (and even more so the Mets' epic collapse in '07) -- the bottom line for '09 is that the Mets are going to make another pennant run at the Phillies, with big-bucks players funded by an overpriced stadium, which is funded by a failed and morally failing bank that is ultimately funded now...by you and me. Outrageous? You betcha.

But then, did you really need another reason to hate the Mets.

Posted by Will Bunch @ 10:01 PM  Permalink | 80 comments
Comments   
Comment removed.
Posted 10:07 PM, 11/24/2008
Archimedes
I'm a recovering Mets fan, but I have hated Citi (in its various versions, even before it was Citibank) for years. There should have been no guarantees without some sort of responsible and enforceable reform.
Comment removed.
Posted 10:43 PM, 11/24/2008
Talking point sleuth
"Can't believe I spelled PHILLIES wrong...... 2008 World Chapions- Philadelphia Phillies.....it never gets old......" ---}}} Lol! Only Idiot could have written that post. What's a "Chapion," Idiot?
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Posted 01:34 AM, 11/25/2008
SteveMG
Tough day at the keyboard, huh?
Comment removed.
Posted 06:41 AM, 11/25/2008
mike l
See where the same trio (or one guy) keeps posting his anti-Bunch stuff, no matter the story. Do you guy(s) stay up all night thinking this stuff up?
Posted 07:34 AM, 11/25/2008
jmc
No amount of bailout money can prevent the Mets from collapsing in the last month of the season.
Posted 08:30 AM, 11/25/2008
Captain Awesome
I understand the outrage over this but think it is misplaced. The guy from Citi is right in saying that the sport sponsorships are great ways to advertise a company's brand. I'm sure Citi and AIG and anyone else who is getting a bailout has a lot of other marketing expenses that seem silly in the wake of a tough economy: like buying stuff with the corporate name on it to give away at trade shows or schmoozing big customers at golf outings, etc. The stadium thing is a big issue because it is right there in front of your face....
Posted 08:31 AM, 11/25/2008
Captain Awesome
Oh, and that being said, I would rather watch Osama bin Laden drill my grandmother than root for the Mets.
Posted 08:40 AM, 11/25/2008
bobcitydoc
How about the other sources of revenue for this facility team. Federal tax exempt bonds, and the use of luxury taxes that were supposed to go to the league's have nots.
Posted 09:05 AM, 11/25/2008
RG
Capt'n I'd rather have them spend $400 mil on better risk management and investment strategies that slap a name on a stadium. Does anyone really base their credit card or mortgage on this nonsense? Wow, I'm gonna refi through Citizens Bank, I saw their name in big shiny letters on the park!
Posted 09:06 AM, 11/25/2008
jdab
This article blows hot air. In the eyes of a huge multinational, $20 million/year advertising contract is not extravagant. That money would only cover the salaries of 400 people making $50,000 this year, forget the other remaining 51,200. I will feel no pity if the Citizens Bank is next on the chopping block and you guys will have to get WaWa for a sponsor then. Enjoy your championship and stop whining.
Posted 09:23 AM, 11/25/2008
bryanc
Can someone explain to me how Citibank ws able to easily get $25 billion in a handout, and hundreds of billions in backing for their loans, yet the auto industry cannot get a $25 billion dollar loan? How come Citi did not have to present a "plan" like the blowhard senators were insisting on from the auto industry? These are the quetions that should be asked. Instead you have dingbats like Will kvetching about a logo on a building. That's like complaining about the GOP spending $150,000 on Palin's wardrobe instead of real issues like the economy, unemployment, and a resurgent Russia. Good job, Will, way to stay on top of it. And just so you are ready for your future job, I'll have you know I will take fries with my order.
Comment removed.
Posted 09:26 AM, 11/25/2008
phillysmart
As long as the tax payers keep quiet about this it will continue to happen... we need a taxpayer revolt and start by throwing every incumbent out... doubt if it will happen but that it whats needed
Posted 09:31 AM, 11/25/2008
Captain Awesome
RG, a company can have the best risk management and investment strategies in the world, but if potential customers don't know about them, the business won't have customers. We'd probably be surprised to see how many people base their credit card or mortgage decisions on junk like that. People will sign up for a credit card if it means they get a free towel or water bottle (I think they solicit those offers at CBP, if I remember correctly), or people will order a credit card because it has Looney Tunes or their favorite NFL team logo on it.
Posted 09:37 AM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
Gotta go with Cap'n on this one. Obviously, the financial whizzes at Citi feel that spending that amount on that particular type of advertisement will bring a net positive return. I'm always astounded by these kinds of marketing strategies; one might question whether they aren't developed simply to keep marketing professionals in the money, or maybe just to satisfy egos (like Huntsman contributing, what, hundreds of millions, to have the new Wharton building named after him) - but this certainly isn't a unique situation (given that so many are willing to spend so much for naming rights).
Posted 09:37 AM, 11/25/2008
Captain Awesome
One other quick point on this and what jdab said about $20m/year for advertising. I don't have numbers in front of me, but in terms of making an advertising decision, stadium leasing rights probably make a lot of sense. How many times during a game do announcers say "Citizens Bank Park"? Then you have shots of the stadium, articles in newspapers or SI that mention the stadium name. That's a ton of face time. Now consider how much it would cost for CBP to buy similar ad space in SI (which people might not read), newspapers, radio, television, etc. The business probably comes out ahead. Granted, it looks bad in light of the bailout and economic crisis.
Posted 09:43 AM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
bryanc raises an interesting question. Why bail out Citi and not the auto industry? A few suggestions. First, the decision-makers are directly tied into the financial industry. Second, there is much more resistance - primarily from Republicans - to bailing out the auto industry, because it provides an opportunity to bash unions (and, inaccurately claim, that it is only union labor which puts American auto companies at a competitive disadvantage when, in fact, it is health insurance costs which are the primary factor). Finally, maybe a legit answer - the feds really are primarily worried about liquidity and the availability of credit because they honestly believe that more than any individual industry, that is the most important factor when it comes to limiting the fallout from the subprime crises. If you disagree with that notion, then it would seem you should be supporting Obama's focus on a stimulus package.
Comment removed.
Posted 10:41 AM, 11/25/2008
RG
Well, Capt'n thats putting the cart before the horse now isn't? Polishing your "brand" before your product? No wonder we're in this mess.
Posted 11:19 AM, 11/25/2008
claudio
Its not very infuriating because it's a bank. If they were somehow using our tax dollars to build their stadium then it would be. But of course thats what they are doing and have done in New York, good thing for them no one pay attention to politics outside of presidential elections.
Comment removed.
Posted 11:50 AM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
TPS: The union's are not putting American car companies at a competitive disadvantage, health insurance costs are? Well I have news for you...the union's are the one's who strong-armed the car companies into gauranteeing health care costs for life, and coincidentally they also have the final say in what plans they will accept for their members health care. But you knew that. How about the fact that US auotomakers have refused to adapt to an ever-changing marketplace and economic landscape? They refuse to build quality cars that are efficient and cost effective. But that has nothing to do with the prospects of giving them taxpayer money, right? The truth of the matter is that US automakers have been in trouble for years and they now see an opportunity to exploit the current financial woes and claim them as contributing factors to their demise, when in fact it's their business model that is failed and their refusal to be agile in their marketplace. Sounds like you are using this for an opportunity to bash the GOP...but you're right, this is about the GOP bashing the Labor Mafia...I mean the Union's.
Posted 12:14 PM, 11/25/2008
James TL
Oh, and that being said, I would rather watch Osama bin Laden drill my grandmother than root for the Mets. Umm... that's an image I don't really need to see Captain. I mean, I hate the Mets too but....LOL!
Posted 12:18 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
bp. The fact of the matter is that all other western nations have a nationalized healthcare system. That is the reason why private companies are pressured to absorb the costs of healthcare. If we had a nationalized system, that cost wouldn't be there. That cost puts American auto companies at a competitive disadvantage. It is, simply, a fact. I am certainly not one to excuse the auto companies' failure to adapt better business models. Clearly, I think they should have emphasized more fuel-efficient care for business as well as environmental reasons. As for the companies "exploiting" the financial situation - another simple fact is that non-American auto companies are also facing server economic crises. Another simple fact is that American auto companies failing will have devastating effects throughout our economy. Anyway, in case you missed it, my point was why our government is willing companies in the financial industry but not in the auto industry. Our officials are political animals, and the rightwing has been bashing unions in the context of this situation. That is one of the factors that makes it untenable for our government to bail out the auto industry. Another simple fact. On the other side, Dems have been bashing the role that exec pay is a factor in this whole financial crises - which is another factor in why all the bailouts are unpopular; but that issue doesn't have as much resonance with politicians because they are buddy, buddy with the execs and not with "Joe sixpack."
Posted 12:41 PM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
TPS: Your argument that foreign car companies are feeling the pinch too is flawed at best. With the current credit market problems, most businesses in various sectors are hurting...because there's a near freeze in credit markets that typically finance the day to day operations, less credit for consumers to tap into for purchases, etc. Apples to Oranges. American auto makers are hurting because their product stinks, they are overpriced and overvalued, they are inefficient and simply not what today's consumers desire. Contrary to your earlier assertion that ALL car companies are feeling the pain from the same thing. The glarring difference is the fact that the Toyota's, Honda's, Nissan's and VW's of the world feel temporary pain imposed on them by the global reccession, while GM's, Ford's and Chrysler's of the world feel the pain because they're terribly run businesses. The foreign companies can survive this downturn because people still see great value in their products, the same CANNOT be said for the US auto makers. But keep harping on Nationalized healthcare as if that's the single biggest problem that GM, Ford and Chrysler face. Simple fact...US Automakers are nothing more than social welfare programs funded by the sale of automobiles. And yes, they are exploiting the current financial problems...It doesn't matter if people can't get lines of creidt to purchase your product...no one wants their product.
Posted 12:45 PM, 11/25/2008
bryanc
I hear you TPS, but it is not just the Republicans who are against the auto bailout. In fact, Treasury Secretary Paulson is a Democrat, and even he is against using the TARP funds for the auto industry. But Democrat or Republican is not the issue -- those who are against the auto industry bailout want to see a plan for the funds first, and that's fair enough. Why are our representatives not asking for the same thing from the banks they are bailing out? Why do the banks get to keep going with business as usual? That's not democrat or republican, that's just doing what is fair. Sheesh, the automakers aren;t even asking for a bailout -- they just want a LOAN.
Posted 12:51 PM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
bryanc: a loan is eesentially what the banks are recieving with gaurantees to protect the toxic assets. It all has to be paid back over time...no freebies with the bailout as the govt is also getting a large stake in the banks it does help fund. The big difference is banks make money by lending and they cannot do so until the creidt markets become a bit more liquid. Car makers generate revenues primarily from selling autos...the problem is no one wants them anymore. So even loaning them money is silly because eventually the will file chp 11 and be forced to restructure.
Posted 01:31 PM, 11/25/2008
Captain Awesome
RG, if you were talking about a startup, yes, but Citi is one of the largest financial institutions in the country.
Posted 01:35 PM, 11/25/2008
Captain Awesome
James TL, sorry for the vivid analogy. I hope you didn't have to stab a letter opener into your ears to get the image out of your head. I just dislike the Mets more than any other team in sports--more than the Cowbows, more than the Celtics, more than the Devils.
Posted 01:42 PM, 11/25/2008
A Friend
Santana has the second best change-up in baseball.
Posted 02:12 PM, 11/25/2008
Gibba Mang
Market and advertising like this deal with the Muts never made sense to me as a consumer. I'll buy products and services because they are good, not because I hear their name 20 times during a baseball game. Quality is your best adversting/marketing strategy IMHO.
Posted 02:39 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
bp. Let's try this again. All the auto manufacturers are suffering during this crises. One of the primary reasons for that is that customers of all auto companies are having difficulty procuring loans. The entire industry is having a huge problem. One of the major factors why American auto companies are suffering the most is because of their bad business plans of investing so heavily in gas guzzlers. Another reason (particularly with GM) that so much of their business plan essentially turned them in to finance companies. Another reason is their extremely high executive pay. Another reason is their high labor rates. Another reason is that the American companies have been around longer - so they are liable for more retirement benefits. Another reason is that their business plans didn't create the kinds of flexibility and changeability that Japanese companies have. But the single, biggest factor is, in IMO, the fact that for all the competing companies insurance costs are a non-factor. One final note - although obviously the business plan of American companies was flawed, it should be noted that before the recent increase in gas costs, Japanese companies were largely changing their business models to be more similar to the American companies; they were focusing much more on the higher-profit vehicles that use more gas.
Posted 02:41 PM, 11/25/2008
GO PHILLIES!!!
Headline is bogus - the Mets will not win in '09.
Posted 02:42 PM, 11/25/2008
Captain Awesome
"Santana has the second best change-up in baseball." Amen. Second to a certain left-handed on the Phillies staff.
Posted 02:45 PM, 11/25/2008
James TL
Not without a bullpen GOPHILLIES. If they sign that guy from the Angels they could be dangerous however.
Posted 03:08 PM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
TPS: Once again you prove that you only work with circular arguments and mystical statements. You went from Health Insurance being the biggest and most painful factor in the demise of the American automakers to now essentially admitting that the unions and their insane wages and tactics are the real reason behind their failures. And your statement that Japanese/Chinese automakers are making more models that mimic American cars is just plain dumb. Honda Accord, Toyota Prius, the Civic, the Rabbit, the Yaris, the SmartCar, the Kia Rio, the Honda Fit...need I go on? Toyota has a truck division, Honda also has a truck division...both always have and always will. And you reveal your elitist attitude perfectly when you claim YOUR OPINION to be the only correct answer to the question. <<" But the single, biggest factor is, in IMO, the fact that for all the competing companies insurance costs are a non-factor.">> So let's try this again Talking Point Chooch...you now have neatly rearranged your entire argument in such a way that you begrudgingly agree with me that the American auto maker is a terribly run business that is held in a stanglehold by the unions and their ridiculous wage demands. And again I will reitterate...it doesn't matter if financing is tight if no one wants to finance your bozo product. You are the single biggest fraud on this board. But nice try. It was great owning and exposing you...again.
Posted 03:10 PM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
And as I stated earlier...the American car companies have been on the decline for years...not so for their foreign counterparts. But, yeah, it's really the credit crunch that's hurt GM, Ford and Chrysler. Genius you are.
Posted 03:21 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
bp - labor cost is one factor, but one that is relatively minor compared to other factors. Toyota and GM workers make similar wages, when bonuses are factored in. I have never wavered from the contention that healthcare costs are the single biggest competitive advantage for foreign auto companies. I have said all along that better business models by foreign competitors has been a factor, and never wavered on that. One of the relevant issues there is that foreign companies have produced more high-mileage cars. However, that gap has decreased markedly in recent years. And one significant reason for that, as I mentioned earlier, is that while yes, Japanese companies have always had truck divisions, up until relatively recently, they were putting more resources, relatively, into their low-mileage, high profit vehicles. The issue that you have never addressed is the simple fact that American auto companies have a huge expense which their foreign competitors do not have; healthcare costs. Do you have any idea how much that is? Per car, American auto manufacturers pay between $1500 - $1100 per car in healthcare costs. Compare that to the healthcare costs per car for Japanese auto manufacturers: virtually nothing.
Posted 03:41 PM, 11/25/2008
RG
"Compare that to the healthcare costs per car for Japanese auto manufacturers: virtually nothing." Are you talking as a whole? Surely they incur h/c costs for plants operated here in America. "labor cost is one factor"-From what I have read, labor costs per Aemrican based manufacturer is $70 per hour, for foreign based $40 something. Now, that $70+ per is arrived at by including legacy costs for alreayd retired workers, who aren't producing anything, but I think its a fair number. That alone puts Detroit at a great cost disadvantage. However, bad management and bad design are also heavy factors.
Posted 03:42 PM, 11/25/2008
Gibba Mang
American auto manufacturers pay between $1500 - $1100 per car in healthcare costs......Just another in a long line of reasons for Universal Healthcare. While labor costs may put American companies at a disadvatnage, the problem really is management and design of products. Poor management decisions investing heavily in trucks and SUVs and too slow to bring alternative fuel vehicles to market. Also, overall, very poor designed passanger cars. GM fibnally got in right with the new Malibu after Honda did it with the Accord 20+ years ago.
Posted 03:42 PM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
TPS: Try acknowledging the fact that your beloved Unions (labor mafia) decides what healthcare their members recieve from their employer...not the other way around. Wonder why that is? Another fact you may want to examine is that American car companies price the cost of various expenses, such as insurance, into their cost-per-car. Another great thing to point out is that while GM, Ford and Chrysler pay on average 75k in salary for assembly line workers, Honda, Kia, Nissan, etc do not. How about we talk about GM's 8 different brands, that with the exception of Saab and Cadillac, sell basically the exact same products with differing nameplates. Why won't you address the fact that no one wants to buy American cars anymore? No, that has nothing to do with them not being profitable. Keep avoiding the true issues behind the American auto's failure in order to push your own agenda of nationalized healthcare. One more thing to ponder...if government cannot even manage their SS obligations...why would anyone in their right mind want them to be charged with managing and administering their healthcare? You are completely wrong TPS, you are a fraud and you have mastered the circle-jerk argument. Total dipsh*t you are. But keep blaming healthcare for the demise of the US auto, and keep avoiding the fact that consumers simply do not want American cars.
Posted 03:53 PM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
And noting the cost of labor as you did << "is one factor, but one that is relatively minor compared to other factors. >> " is not only the dumbest thing I may have ever heard, but it exposes how little an understanding you have on business and how it is run. Labor costs are a "relatively minor" factor...what a joke. LOL. Dope.
Posted 03:53 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
--snip -- Let's start with the fact that it's not $70 per hour in wages. According to Kristin Dziczek of the Center for Automative Research -- who was my primary source for the figures you are about to read -- average wages for workers at Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors were just $28 per hour as of 2007. That works out to a little less than $60,000 a year in gross income -- hardly outrageous, particularly when you consider the physical demands of automobile assembly work and the skills most workers must acquire over the course of their careers. [...] [T]hen what's the source of that $70 hourly figure? It didn't come out of thin air. Analysts came up with it by including the cost of all employer-provided benefits -- namely, health insurance and pensions -- and then dividing by the number of workers. The result, they found, was that benefits for Big Three cost about $42 per hour, per employee. Add that to the wages -- again, $24 per hour -- and you get the $70 figure. Voila. Except ... notice something weird about this calculation? It's not as if each active worker is getting health benefits and pensions worth $42 per hour. That would come to nearly twice his or her wages. Instead, each active worker is getting benefits equal only to a fraction of that -- probably around $10 per hour, according to estimates from the International Motor Vehicle Program. The number only gets to $70 an hour if you include the cost of benefits for retirees -- in other words, the cost of benefits for other people.
Posted 03:56 PM, 11/25/2008
RG
TPS, but doesn't that $70 figure reflect their true labor cost (current wages, future promises to current workers, and current benefits to retired workers)?
Posted 03:58 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
The labor cost differential is a relatively minor factor, bp, because there isn't that much of a differential. On the other hand, there is a huge differential when it comes to healthcare costs. Once again, American companies absorb those healthcare costs, Japanese companies do no. A simple fact, bp. You blame unions for the fact that American companies need to absorb those costs. No. If the playing field were level in that regard, it would make American auto companies far more profitable. In a sense, the foreign auto manufacturers are getting a "government bailout" that American companies aren't getting. I'll explain my point again, bp. There are a multiplicity of factors. Certainly, the management mistaks of American auto companies are significant among those factors. However, the single biggest factor that is causing the American auto companies to have more problems than their foreign competitors (who are also having significant problems) is the fact that they pay an additional $1500 - $1100 per car in healtchcare costs. A simple fact, bp.
Posted 04:00 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
Yes, RG. But the point is that American companies have been in business longer, and so have higher legacy costs. That issue is not, necessarily, a function of them being unionized or a function of a bad business model. Your question about the healthcare costs for Japanese companies manufacturing in the U.S. is a good one - I don't have an answer.
Posted 04:04 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
Perhaps I should explain myself further, bp. Of course labor costs is a huge factor in profitability. But when you're talking about the relative profitability of two companies in the same industry, it's the relative labor cost differential that is the important factor. GM and Toyota workers make similar wages when you factor in bonuses - @ $60,0000
Posted 04:08 PM, 11/25/2008
CharlieDontSurf
"The labor cost differential is a relatively minor factor, bp, because there isn't that much of a differential. On the other hand, there is a huge differential when it comes to healthcare costs..." Wonder how these manufacturers do it....Toyotas, Hondas, Subarus, BMWs, Mercedes-Benzes, Hyundais, and others -- more than 40 models of foreign cars, minivans, SUVS, and pickup trucks -- are rolling off assembly lines at 15 plants in the United States so rapidly that last year brought an automotive tipping point. boston.com/business/articles/2005/09/04/made_in_america/
Posted 04:09 PM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
<< "(and, inaccurately claim, that it is only union labor which puts American auto companies at a competitive disadvantage when, in fact, it is health insurance costs which are the primary factor).>> " So now you say that with everything priced in at or around $70 per hour, per employee...that it's not the cost of labor, which includes but not limited to, the cost for healthcare, disability, pensions and daily wage for current AND former employees. (Which coincidentally is set and mandated by the unions) Instead it's all healthcare costs? Nice try fraud. And again the circular argument is exposed and again you are exposed for singularly trying to blame just one aspect for the failures of the big 3. LOL.
Posted 04:09 PM, 11/25/2008
RG
Also, to be fair, management signed all of thsoe deals. they knew what they were doing, trading lower salary for future benefits, in order to keep s/t profits high. In addition, I'm pretty sure that certain h/c costs are coming off the books, the UAW will be responsible for a health care employee trust in 2010, so some concessions have been made.
Posted 04:15 PM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
TPS: I'll say it again...the problems facing the big 3 are not new. It is not due to the cost of health insurance. It's a bad business model, they make shoddy products, they have refused to adapt to a new marketplace and no one wants to buy their cars/trucks. That is why they are in the position they are in. You can attempt to spin this anyway you'd like, but the simple fact remains...you are dead wrong. Sure insurance costs a boatload, but that cost is way down the list of reasons when it comes to factoring why the big 3 are on the brink of failure.
Posted 04:16 PM, 11/25/2008
SBVFT Contributor
Scr*w Detroit. Both management & the UAW are at fault. Let em fail. .........Where was Hudson's bailout?
Posted 04:19 PM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
RG: you're absolutely right...but to blame healthcare costs as the leading factor in the demise of a horribly run business is just plain stupid. It's called failing to keep up with current demand. I.E. : Stop building Hummers and Escalades when the public is screaming for small, inexpensive, highly efficient cars similar to Hondas and Toyotas.
Posted 04:21 PM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
But go ahead, Talking Point Stoop, keep pushing your agenda of nationalized healthcare while citing GM as your case study. You would be laughed out of the door at the lowliest of business institutions. Dope.
Posted 04:23 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
Let's try this again, bp. When you figure labor costs to include benefits, the single biggest factor in the labor cost differential is the healtchare benefits. Without factoring that in, labor costs are very similar.
Posted 04:29 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
bp. Once again, I am not, at all, suggesting that bad decisions weren't made by American auto companies. Once again, they are a relevant factor. But one thing to consider is that when you are facing a significant competitive disadvantage from the start - which American auto companies are facing due to the fact that they don't have the government bailout that foreign auto-makers have - it impacts your business model all the way up and down the manufacturing and supply chains. Companies cut corners and make concessions in quality in order to remain competitive. That's bad management also - but it derives to a large extent because the American companies were not competing on a level playing field.
Posted 04:32 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
Interesting, bp, that you would conclude that talking about the additional $1500-$1100 per auto that American companies pay in healthcare costs relative to their foreign competitors is "using an agenda of nationalized healthcare." Apparently, you think that those additional costs facing American auto companies is a rationale for why we should have nationalized healthcare. Actually, I would have guessed that you wouldn't have felt that way, but I have been know to makes mistakes in the past (albeit, rarely).
Posted 04:34 PM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
Blah, blah blah TPS. Insurance costs don't matter when you can't sell your sh*tty product. But nice try. Dope lackey. And you also may want to note how GM had the largest pension fund shortfall of any major US corporation and had to float 17 billion in new bond offerings to fund it for another year back in '03, and that's just for the monthly payments to retirees, not insurance costs. But yeah, it's the healthcare costs. HAHAHAHAHAHA. What a nitwit.
Posted 04:39 PM, 11/25/2008
bpphilly
Not for bailouts, not for nationalized healthcare, not for labor mafia's...I'm for companies who are there to compete and not just attempt to ride out their namesake. Bad business model, awful products...let them file chp 11. But again, nice try to blame healthcare costs for morons running a business. A 4 year old could turn huge profits if he somply paid attention to consumer demands. But you're right...it's the healthcare costs. Lackey fraud.
Posted 04:41 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
"they have refused to adapt to a new marketplace and no one wants to buy their cars/trucks. ...---}}} An interesting point, bp. Japanese companies have developed far more sophisticated methods for evaluating customer preferences than American auto companies. They have also developed more adaptable manufacturing capabilities that give them more flexibility in altering their product lines. And of course, their innovations around inventory controls like "just in time" have also made them more profitable. All factors that are very relevant. Only they don't change the simple fact that American auto companies start out $1500-$1100 in the hole, relative to foreign manufacturers, with each car they produce. Still, American companies did have a system for evaluating consumer preferences - and obviously, given the way that Japanese companies shifted resources into producing inefficient vehicles showed that their consumer experts largely agreed with the American marketers. Fortunately for them, however, they were able to adapt much more quickly.
Posted 04:49 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
BTW - have a nice evening, bp. Oh, and I'd recommend that you try some yoga, my man, to try to relax a bit. That anger is just going to eat you up.
Posted 06:29 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
"Dope lackey. And you also may want to note how GM had the largest pension fund shortfall of any major US corporation and had to float 17 billion in new bond offerings to fund it for another year back in '03, and that's just for the monthly payments to retirees, not insurance costs....---}}} Good point, bp. Well, except for this. --snip -- For the whole of 2004, GM earned $3.7bn, down from $3.8bn in 2003, while its annual revenue rose 4.5% to $193bn. --snip-- Issuing bonds is a way to raise working capital - it doesn't necessarily mean a lack of profit, as you seem to have concluded. Plenty of companies issue bonds to meet debt obligations. More info for your edification: --snip-- Even with the recent concessions by the UAW at GM and Ford, retiree benefits remain the U.S. carmakers' biggest cost disadvantage compared with Toyota in the U.S. Of a $26 an hour total labor-cost disadvantage for GM, the benefits account for $22 an hour, according to a report by Harbour-Felax. They account for $14 out of an $18 an hour total gap at Ford. Most of the costs are for retiree health care. GM had about 357,000 union retirees in the U.S. at the end of last year. Toyota, which doesn't disclose U.S. health-care spending, has 269 U.S. retirees, it said. The total employee compensation gap with Toyota is probably about $7.5 billion annually at GM alone, according to Lehman's Johnson. That's $10 a share in profit, or enough to develop two or three new car or truck lines, he said. ``Consensus is building within the domestic three automakers that a permanent solution for health care is essential to the successful restructuring of their businesses,'' wrote Rod Lache, a Deutsche Bank analyst, in a May 16 report. --snip-- and this (2007) --snip-- Toyota is predicting its North American sales growth will plummet to 1.6 percent in the year ending March 31, from 15 percent the year before. The company last month forecast the smallest fiscal year profit growth in six years.
Posted 06:38 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
One final point - as this statement shows that you're operating from another misconception....".let them file chp 11..l.." ---}}} Given today's credit conditions - they won't be able to file chapter 11. They will need to file chapter 7 - total liquidation. Care to lend your vast expertise to speculating what the impact to the economy might be of the big 3 being forced to liquidate?
Posted 07:52 PM, 11/25/2008
montani semper liberi
We can either socialize our economy or surrender it to foreigners. No one can be both a capitalist and a patriot in a global economy.
Posted 07:53 PM, 11/25/2008
legatus
RG & bp...Let's assume all other factors are equal (rate of pay, pensions, legacy costs, etc) and held constant, with the only variable being healthcare costs incurred by the US companies due to labor union contract vs. national healthcare for foreign companies. Now, I would have to assume that ~someone~ is paying the healthcare bill in foreign countries. That someone is the foreign taxpayer...ie. the labor pool. Therefore, the US employee net income is X Dollars plus benefits (which include healthcare) minus taxes (taxes which don't include healthcare costs). The foreign worker is netting X Dollars plus benefits (less benefits since they do not include healthcare) minus taxes (which are higher since they do include healthcare costs). All other things equal, the foreign worker is thus willing to take home less than the US worker...the difference being the extra taxes needed to fund national healthcare. The labor unions have therefore had a hand in putting the US auto industry at a competitive disadvantage by having the car companies pay costs which are borne by labor in other countries.
Posted 07:59 PM, 11/25/2008
montani semper liberi
Legatus, imagine what you'd save by eliminating the cost of the healthcare insurance industry. That's one benefit of socialized medicine the inurance industry won't tell you about.
Posted 08:09 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
RG & bp. Since legatus didn't read my posts, I guess he doesn't realize that yes, the foreign taxpayer is footing the bill for healthcare, whereas the American taxpayer is not. Therefore, it is the American taxpayer who has put the American auto industry at a competitive disadvantage relative to their foreign competitors, and not, as legatus asserts, union members any more than the non-union American public. Of course, if Republicans really were willing to put their money where their mouths are to help ensure the competitiveness of American companies, they wouldn't whine like little girls about paying more taxes even though they have among the highest standards of living in the world.
Posted 08:18 PM, 11/25/2008
Definitely Not TPS
Hey legatus, you really should check out what TPS just posted. I mean that guy is usually wrong about everything, and you are clearly right about everything - except I think he's right on this issue. Oh, and BTW, have you given any thought about Ricky French's pleasure/death posts? Do you find them as titillating as his homoerotic/scatologic*l fantasies?
Posted 09:17 PM, 11/25/2008
legatus
That's a good point msl, but you're looking at it with blinders on. The cause of the U.S. health-care mess is governmental interference. The solution, therefore, is not more governmental control, whether via nationalized medical insurance or a government takeover of medicine. Health insurance costs so much today because the government, on the premise that there exists a “right” to health care at someone else’s expense, has promised Americans a free lunch. When a person can consume medical services without needing to consider how to pay for them...Medicare, Medicaid, or the individual’s employer will foot the bill...demand skyrockets. The $2,000 elective liver test he or she would have forgone in favor of a better place to live suddenly becomes a necessity when its cost seems to add up to $0. As the expense of providing “free” health care erupts accordingly, the government tries to control costs by clamping down on the providers of health care. A massive net of regulations descends on doctors, nurses, insurers, and drug companies. As more of their endeavors are rendered unprofitable, drug companies produce fewer drugs, and insurers limit their policies or exit the industry. Doctors and nurses, now buried in paperwork and faced with the endless, unjust task of appeasing government regulators, find their love for their work dissipating. They cut their hours or leave the profession. Many young people decide never to enter those fields in the first place. What happens when demand skyrockets and supply is restricted? The price of medicine explodes. What was once to serve as a free lunch for everyone becomes lunch for no one. The solution? Remove all controls. Recognize each citizen’s right and responsibility to pay for his or her own health care, and return to insurers the entrepreneurial freedom to come up with innovative products. True freedom would bring health care into the reach of the average U.S. citizen again. -Business Week
Posted 10:16 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
Beautiful logic there by legatus. So, the reason why healthcare is so expensive in the U.S., is because there's so much government interference. Of course, Americans pay far more for less coverage than citizens of very other developed country in the world - which all have nationalized healthcare. See, government interference means it costs more, but that logic only applies in this country, and not in others. And don't forget, MSL, that the high cost of medical insurance in this country has nothing to do with the fact that in this country, insurance companies pull huge profits out of the system. I mean, the fact that medicare is more efficient in terms of coverage per dollar than private insurance is, no doubt, attributable SOCIALISM.
Posted 10:23 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
"Doctors and nurses, now buried in paperwork and faced with the endless, unjust task of appeasing government regulators, find their love for their work dissipating...---}}} A personal favorite quote. Ask anyone that works in the healthcare industry. The massive network of paperwork is required by private insurance companies so that they can restrict coverage in order to ensure profits. Their hours are cut because private insurance companies limit them to 15 minutes per patient - in order to ensure profits. "As more of their endeavors are rendered unprofitable, drug companies produce fewer drugs, ...---}}} Another favorite quote. Pharmaceutical companies are among the most profitable on the planet, and have been doing extremely well in recent decades.
Posted 10:27 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
Yup, government inteference sure is crushing those drug companies. --snip-- Pharmaceutical Industry Profits Increase by Over $8 Billion After Medicare Drug Plan Goes Into Effect This analysis examines the profit reports of the ten largest pharmaceutical manufacturers for the six-month period following the start of the new Medicare drug program. It finds that in the six months after January 1, 2006, when the Medicare drug program went into effect, pharmaceutical industry profits increased by over $8 billion. The Medicare drug program contributed to this surge in drug industry profits through a combination of increased utilization, higher prices, and switching “dual-eligible” beneficiaries from Medicaid to Medicare --snip -- Although the pharmaceutical industry claims to be a high-risk business, year after year drug companies enjoy higher profits than any other industry. In 2002, for example, the top 10 drug companies in the United States had a median profit margin of 17%, compared with only 3.1% for all the other industries on the Fortune 500 list.1 Indeed, subtracting losses from gains, those 10 companies made more in profits that year than the other 490 companies put together. Pfizer, the world's number-one drug company, had a profit margin of 26% of sales. In 2003, for the first time in over 2 decades, the pharmaceutical industry fell slightly from its number-one spot to third, but this was explained by special circumstances, including Pfizer's purchase of another drug giant, Pharmacia, which cut into its profits for the year. The industry's profits were still an extraordinary 14% of sales, well above the median of 4.6% for other industries.2 A business that is consistently so profitable can hardly be considered risky.
Posted 10:33 PM, 11/25/2008
Talking point sleuth
Typical administrative cost for private insurances run 20%. Kaiser a not for profit health plan, the VA and Medicare all run closer to 5%...numbers similiar to other countries with government sponsered plans.
Posted 09:39 AM, 11/26/2008
bpphilly
TPS: Keep dodging the issue that American Automakers are not going to be bailed out because the money will go to a blackhole and their bussinesses are run a**backwards. Cry about healthcare costs all you want, but the fact remains that the unions have squeezed these companies for years, they have NEVER attempted to adapt to a changing marketplace and they have lost massive ammounts of marketshare to car companies who actually make quality products. You have denied this cold hard reality since the start on this blog simply to push some BS, fraud agenda. When the big 3 can present a plan that is viable and sustainable, then they can begin to ask for money. But until they do that, that money goes down the drain if given. Stop denying the fact that no one wants Americn cars...that is why they are in this position, not healthcare. And as for chp 11 not being to happen because of the credit crunch...the government already laid out that alternative for the big 3 with Fed assistance. FRAUD< DOPE< LACKEY< SOCIALIST< SISSY. LOL...Healthcare costs is why Detroit is failing...LOL!!
Posted 11:46 AM, 11/26/2008
RG
"When the big 3 can present a plan that is viable and sustainable, then they can begin to ask for money." Was anyone else at least mildly surprise that Reid and Perlosi actually took this stance after their recent testimony?
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