The incivility death spiral
Rooting for your opponents to die is the last frontier of free speech
The incivility death spiral
Dick Polman, Inquirer National Political Columnist
Taking one last break from the tyranny of the 24/7 news cycle, here is my updated and expanded Sunday print column:
I remember when I first realized that the decline of civility had become a death spiral. The date was Jan. 20, 2009. Ted Kennedy, who was battling a brain tumor, collapsed at an Inaugural luncheon – thus prompting many anonymous participants in our oft-demented national conversation to rub their hands in glee and root for his death.
On the ABC News website, one exclaimed, "Hot diggity damn! Maybe we’re finally rid of him!” Another exulted, "And I thought nothing good would come of this day!”
But this was mere foreplay compared to the purrs of satisfaction that were posted online when Kennedy died seven months later. Many commenters were frankly giddy at the prospect that the late senator would dwell forever in a certain fiery climate.
On the Boston Globe site, a commenter wrote, "Burn, baby, burn!" On a blog sponsored by a prominent law professor, somebody wrote, "Good riddance to bad rubbish. The Kennedy’s (sic) have always been socialists. I for one am glad to see another one of them pass into Lucifer’s loving embrace." Somebody else chimed in, "The dude was pure evil and I’m all for dancing on his grave." (Actually, the dancing was the least of it. He also anticipated performing a specific bodily function.)
I’m all for free and unfettered expression, but we have clearly crossed a line somehow, somewhere. Anger is a natural emotion; it can even be a healthy emotion if channeled properly. But millions now seem to assume that an Internet connection is a license to indulge their most sociopathic impulses. In our increasingly coarsened political culture, even death is being politicized; apparently, it’s now considered cool to rejoice in the demise of those with whom we disagree.
Some online correspondents are refreshingly sane, of course. After Kennedy died, there were sporadic attempts to admonish the death lobby. One civil soul wrote on the Globe site, "Comments like theirs make me feel ashamed for America – that our way of life is producing values like theirs." Another lamented, "Politeness is a virtue that has all but vanished from our public discourse," and contended, "the extremist right wing, abetted by Fox News, is the principle reason for that. It’s always the haters on the right-wing who are completely devoid of class and decorum."
Well, actually, that’s totally wrong. People on the left do the death dance all the time. Last night, for instance.
Dick Cheney was hospitalized with chest pains yesterday. The Washington Post put the story on its website at 7:31 p.m. Sixteen minutes later, a commenter wrote, "I hope he drops dead." Seven minutes after that, somebody wrote, "I just hope they don't desecrate Arlington (National Cemetery) with this piece of carrion." Four minutes after that, somebody wrote, "The devil is calling his boy home." Seven minutes after that, somebody wrote, "I was so excited to hear that the guy was on his way to the hospital. I was so disappointed to hear that he made it there alive." Four minutes after that, somebody wrote, "Best news to hear in quite some time. Let's hope he suffers before he rots." (Back in 2007, when Cheney survived an assassination attempt in Afghanistan, commenters on the liberal Huffington Post site wrote things like this: "Can't the Taliban do anything right?")
Similarly, when Rush Limbaugh was hospitalized with chest pains last Dec. 30, the left-leaning comment boards were jammed with celebrants:
"Garbage in, garbage out. Let him die."
"If he croaks, this is offically the greatest year in American history."
"Come on, 2009! Don’t fail me now!"
And not all trash-talkers are anonymous. Last spring, at the White House Correspondents Dinner, comic Wanda Sykes said of Limbaugh, "I hope his kidneys fail." OK, she was joking, but the joke was symptomatic of our cultural illness. Incivility is rewarded; it’s one big reason why somebody like Ann Coulter is a bestselling author. And the parameters of outrage inexorably expand. It’s not enough anymore to be shrill, to call somebody an idiot or a moron or words not fit for a family newspaper. After those frontiers are crossed, what’s left? Just the final frontier: a publicly-stated declaration that the idiot or moron should cease to breathe.
For some anonymous liberals back in 2007, it wasn’t enough to assail Bush White House press secretary Tony Snow for his conservative views. When the news broke in March that his soon-to-be-fatal cancer had returned, commenters at several prominent liberal sites quickly posted their get-well-soon cards. For instance: "He is pure lying scum and should die ASAP!!" For instance: "The cancer in Tony Snow is removing the cancer in Tony Snow…could there be a god?"
Snow had a long track record as a broadcast commentator, which at least partly explained the antipathy. But when a veteran newswoman named Deborah Howell was fatally struck by a car while vacationing in New Zealand on New Year’s Day 2010, a number of conservatives exulted online – even though they had never heard of her prior to the accident.
When they learned that she had served a stint as The Washington Post’s ombudsman, and that she was married to a university president (who had witnessed the fatal accident), that was enough to label her as a liberal – and, therefore, not worthy of respect in death. As one giddy patriot declared on the Politics Daily website, "One less of those anti-U.S. types to deal with."
Nobody in public life is arguably more of a pro-U.S. type than a Marine Corps vet, but not even that designation could protect John Murtha during his final days. When the legendary Pennsylvania congressman was hospitalized for the last time earlier this month, the well-wishers at the Politico website lined up to pay homage in their inimitably perverse fashion:
"Typical Democrat. Please die soon, Murtha."
"He and Benedict Arnold should share a very hot corner in a very bad place."
"Hear-hear! Is he dead yet?"
Abraham Lincoln, who dealt with hate on a daily basis, urged his fellow citizens to heed this bit of advice: "In times like the present, men should utter nothing for which they would not willingly be responsible through time and eternity." His admonition seems just as sensible today, but, as a culture, we seem to be more in sync with someone like 50 Cent, the rapper who wrote a song entitled "Death to My Enemies."
Part of the problem, of course, is that our brave new digital world allows people to root for death from the safe confines of anonymity. I bet they would spare us their most toxic thoughts if they were required to put their names to the words, and take some measure of responsibility.
But, yeah, I know: Anonymity supposedly encourages a more robust online discourse. And I grudgingly agree with Doug Feaver, the former executive editor of washingtonpost.com, who argued last year that "it is useful to be reminded bluntly that the dark forces are out there, and it is too easy to forget that truth by imposing rules that obscure it. As Oscar Wilde wrote in a different context, 'Man is least in himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.'"
In other words, incivility extremism can’t be stopped. All we can do is call it out, in the name of civility. I've just done that. You should do the same.
Comments (104)
I can certainly understand the anger towards Kennedy. Even though I often agreed with Kennedy's positions, let's be blunt...the man was a slime ball and he didn't deserve the honor and attention his funeral received. I am not a conservative, but the Kennedys have been a dirt ball family and truthfully accomplished very little as politicians. The sad thing is that as a politician TK was probably the best of the bunch. I certainly will not cry when Dubya's time comes and I'm unlikely to shed a tear for Cheney. I consider Cheney my enemy and a danger to the nation...the other side feels the same way about many candidates I support. You can call it a lack of civility, but what Sarah Palin represents is anathema to what I view as what this country is about.— Contract Aaron- Still Independent- Is the hybrid your only car? Furthermore it takes GASOLINE. Right? There is no way around that. No pie in the sky nonsense from liberals seems to change the fact that our cars run on gasoline. Build a car that runs on something else that is as cheap as gasoline, performs well, can fit a familiy of 5 and we will all be lining up to drive them. But until then stop pretending like we are in any position to do otherwise. Despotic regimes sell oil on the open market. No amount of world apology tour is going to change that. What we could do is drill for our own oil- in fact the mere threat of doing so would send the oil market lower. But liberals don't like cheap gas. They want to sit around and bi**tch about or consumption of fossil fuels all while in the same breath they bi**tch about rising healthcare cost. Well, if gas was a dollar a gallon we would have have more money to be able to afford healthcare now wouldn't we?
- Nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone's political views. I love arguing. But, I don't get the seething anger that would lead someone to hope for ones death. Even Polman traffics in some serious political distortations to reinforce his views. I wouldn't say I am amused by all of this as I am disgusted. In my family we have the whole allotment of political perspectives. The debate is fun but when it's done you'll learn you have much more in common than you think, just not politics. That is when it's time to tap the Keg and turn the football game on. Most of life, and the best part of it, happens independent of what the government does or does not do.
Comment removed.- Smike,I doubt that the mere threat of drilling for our own oil would drive down the price of oil. There's really nothing to substantiate the price we see now. Crude went down - gas went up (while we were and still are swimming in it) Crude has risen lately and gas dropped. (excluding the lead time on delivery) The market is driven by a lot of forces, many in our own economic system, that have little to do with supply/demand. Now, we absolutely should have an energy policy that includes drilling on land we control but it's only going to get us away from foreign control to a point. Oil producers will be under no mandate to keep it here - it will be going to China or India.— JimR
- Returning to the topic: the lack of civility has become a disgrace. The 'cry for die' from the loons on both sides shouldn't even see the light of day but we've become a bunch of shouters. Just read the comment boards on some of the stories on Philly.com. It's pathetic. This will really touch a nerve with Nigel today.— JimR
- Jim R- Oil dropped to $ 30.28 a barrell on December 23rd 2008. Today it is at $ 80.25. In january of 2008 you could find gas prices here in south jersey at $ 1.31 vs $ 2.50 per gallon today. The drumbeat for drill here, drill now, started 2008 and gas prices began to fall as the price of oil fell. The economy tanking had a big impact as well. If liberals really want to help poor people afford healthcare one giant step would be to find ways to lower the cost of gasoline. Instead we sit here and pretend our cars run on something else. They do not. They run on Gasoline. If liberals are really serious about this economy then they need to get serious about lowering our cost of energy. Smug liberals often champion rising gas prices as a means to " save " the planet- All it does it put the cost crunch to poor people.
- JimR- don't confuse an argument over an issue with " dancing " on ones grave. There is a difference. The is more passion in politics and that is good as it gets more particiapation. More people turn out to vote. The point is that it all goes to far when one hopes for ones death over a political disagreement.
- JimR, you're right. I just got here, but otherwise would have probably been the first to comment. And SMike, this is one of the few times I agree with you wholeheartedly. The best of life does occur independently of government. And I've been saying for some time -- until I'm pretty blue in the face, in fact -- that we need to look at our many commonalities as a basis for moving forward and finding compromise. What has happened to us and why? Why can't we consider another's feelings and thoughts before we attack? It's very disheartening.— NigeltheMastiff
- If Oscar Wilde is to be believed, the mask of the Internet has revealed a sick nation. Of such inner sicknesses do civilizations and great nations crumble from within.— HeywoodEm
- I agree with Mr. Polman that we have lost our civility in politics. When we disagree on issues, it is not personal, as some people/media/lawmakers/presidents take it. When I disagree with the President on an issue I try to be very polite and courteous. Now some bloggers (on both sides) will hide behind their anonymous screen names and act like knuckleheads. Also, it seems like the liberal side takes it much more personally than the cons'pub side, imho. But everyone here is a great American for caring how their country is run & how to do it best. We just disagree on the best way to achieve that goal. It is not personal, just politics:) Soon our parties will be like the Israelis and Palestinians, attacking, holding grudges, getting revenge and never achieving anything for the poeple. Sad really.— NEPhilly
- Polman - I'm reminded of the great poem of our national pastime, Casey at the Bat. After being called on strike one: "Kill him! Kill the umpire!" shouted someone on the stand; And its likely they'd a-killed him had not Casey raised his hand. And again after strike two: "Fraud!" cried the maddened thousands, an echo answered "fraud"; But one scornful look from Casey and the audience was awed. We need a Casey to silence the fools shouting "Kill him!"— chris duckworth
- Polman-I find this article very disturbing and as a young adult in this world I am believed to not know much about politics, but no matter what anyone has done in there life it gives you know right to wish death upon them.I find these people upsetting what about the families and friends who love this individual it will also hurt them when they see these horrible comments. What if it was someone in this individuals life would you want it wished upon them.— tlap
- swedesboromike: I will agree wholeheartedly with your 11:01 post.— still_independent
- swedesboromike: now that that's done with, yes, my hybrid uses gas. What does that have to do with anything? You made the statement that we bought most of our oil from Mexico and a few South American countries. I pointed that that it doesn't matter whose oil we buy. Oil is a fungible commodity. Whether we buy it from Mexico, or Saudi Arabia, or produce it ourselves, our demand is our demand, and it drives the global price up accordingly. At no point did I bring up anything about conservation, carbon, or anything else - I was merely pointing out that your statement about who we buy oil from is non-sensical.... And before you object to the part about producing it ourselves, that is a true statement. Now there may be strategic reasons you want us produce it ourselves, and it obviously generates some extra tax revenues when we produce it ourselves, but producing it ourselves won't lower the price one iota, except in that we'll be increasing the overall supply by some fraction of a percentage.— still_independent
- Smike, I'm not confusing the two. Passion for political ideas is what makes for a lot of good table talk. It makes this blog. The 'cry for die' isn't part of that. I was not/am not a fan of Kennedy or Limbaugh but the wish for the death of either is unconcionsible. Kennedy drove passions especially high but Rush is a choice one makes. If you don't like him, turn off the radio. No one is deserving of that kind of wish. I was amazed at some posts immediately after the earthquake in Haiti dismissing the calls for aid because the poeple there 'made the choice to live there and deserved to die there." There were children who perished. They did not deserve to die for politics. The whole tone of that part of politics makes me sick!— JimR
- I have given up discussing politics with anyone...it serves no purpose butto incite hate. I do my talking in the voting booth.— Jim M.
- Do I agree with Dick Cheney's politics or the choices Ted Kennedy made in his personal life - no. But when things happen such as sickness, loss of a loved one, death, we need to look at those that govern/politcians as people. They are/were someones's husband, father, grandfather, friend. There is no reason for the hate and venom.— Donnadpg
- For me, there is more to it than just refraining from death wishes. The tone of debate itself matters. One can still be passionate about his beliefs and still polite about expressing them. Calling the opposition names and insulting them doesn't gain anything but resentment. And this lack of good manners permeates our society. Look at behavior on the road. Or at sporting events. It really is the erosion from within that will be our downfall. On another note, I am horrified by the civilians killed in Afghanistan by our drones. How would we feel if another country bombed us via drone attacks, killing innocent civilians? And we wonder why other countries hate us.— NigeltheMastiff
- DP, this is top-notch!! Excellent! Fair and balanced. Anonymity is often a refuge for cowards. But I can't really disagree with Oscar.— pj katauskas
- Nigel, well said. There's a general tone of anger as the first response to every slight (real or imagined) Road rage, shout outs, etc are now the way it's done. Something as sedate as a baseball game is now the scene for regular fights. I see more people expelled from a concert now than I did years ago, simply for a session of rage and crazed behavior. Good manners seems to have disappeared.— JimR
- Swedesboromike, great 11:01 post!— pj katauskas
- With oil - sure we have to drill / explore more. Also the answer lies in government intervention. For example President Obama's energy dept is guarenteeing a 9 billion loan for a company building a nuclear power plant. Think about all that oil no longer needed. Public investment in rails and busses will also help with demand for oil.— FormerGOPer
- Hey, folks, I wonder if you've noticed anything about the posts today? They are, I think without exception, CIVIL! DP's piece on the decline of civility has, in fact, dramatically increased the civility on this site, at least for today. And I post here enough to know that it can get pretty uncivil here sometimes. CONGRATS to all who have posted here today!! I've really enjoyed them.— pj katauskas
- FormerGOPer : I'm all for more nuclear power (much more!), but it's not going to help with the oil consumption - at least not until we're all driving electric cars. We don't burn oil to create electricity in the US. Now it'll cut way back on our use of caol, which again I'm all for, but it's not going to help with oil.— still_independent
Eliminate Oil.... Then eliminate every by Product... like Plastic...- pj --It's certainly more enjoyable for me to read well thought-out posts rather than rants. I don't see how anyone can prefer the latter.— NigeltheMastiff
- The Eagles just released Westbrook, 1 day after the Chargers released Tomlinson. Football is a young man's game for sure. Thanks for the memories gentlemen:)— NEPhilly
- You can hate someone (not that it helps anything) but keep it to yourself. Typing your hate onto a blog constitues a plan. Everyone has thoughts that pop into our heads that we would be ashamed for others to know about. Shouting out such thoughts only shows what a classless person you are and does nothing to further the debate.— James TL
- I'm with you, Nigel. I almost always skip posts that I see that have "idiot," "moron" and other pejoratives, which don't advance the dialogue. And James, good point. I did 8 years in Catholic schools and the nuns taught us that "hating" someone meant you wished they would die, so use that word sparingly. That's good advice about a lot of nasty words.— pj katauskas
- Still Independent- you said " now that that's done with, yes, my hybrid uses gas. What does that have to do with anything? You made the statement that we bought most of our oil from Mexico and a few South American countries. I pointed that that it doesn't matter whose oil we buy.".................... As far as the oil market goes, yes, I was never in disagreement. But you said we support Saudi Arabia and Egypt? Yes, we do. We give money to countries all over the world. Even N Korea, the Palestians and probably the Iranians. I was merely pointing out that we don't buy oil from the Saudi's. Many people don't know that. The broader point I am making is that our cars and trucks run on oil based products. There is no way around that now or in the future. Which means we either get serious about oil production or we risk further enriching some of the worlds more despotic regimes. However nice it is to talk about conservation and gas mileage it doesn't resolve the fundamental problem of energy independence and lowering energy costs. There are no automobiles out there that perform well, are less expensive, can coimfortably fit 4-6 people, and run on anything other than gas. We are not going to SMART CAR our way towards energy independence. I would also like to add that there is nothing Smart about a " Smart Car".
- Comment removed.
- Good catch, janann! LOL!— pj katauskas
- MIKEW: I saw 1, 3 & 5 with my own eyes, but it was nice of you to say it was made up. So, we have 2 that really happened? 40%? I trust that you, Tom, Mocky, and the others will attack me with venom to prove they're right. ................... 6. TERRY SCHIAVO LEGISLATION was championed by Bush to continue her vegetative state. That's government staying out of our lives?........7. THE CLEAN AIR ACT that lowered the restrictions on pollution to benefit the corp. bottom line. .......... 8. AFGAN WAR OUTSOURCING to attack a country that had nothing to do with 9-11, while bin Laden became secondary. ..... 9. FISA LAW ON WIRETAPPING BROKEN, because a judge could overrule Bush-Cheney, which was an unacceptable use of checks and balances. ...........10. BLACKWATER RAPE occurred because Blackwater was not subject to US or Iraq law on anything, and the executive needs to know or be informed. .............Red Meat, Conse 'Pubs!!— Talvenada
- Janan- How soon we forget. This was Dec of 08 and Jan of 09 Wawa in route 45 in Woodbury Heights. Carneys Point,Vineland, Millville also had gas prices in that range for a short period of time. Keep in mind oil at the time was only $ 30 dollars a barrel. I have my receipts if you need proof.
- SWMike...Saudi Arabia, though November, 2009, was out fourth largest supplier of crude oil, behind Canada, Mexico and Nigeria. This information is from the US Department of Energy. Where did you get the tidbit that we do not buy any oil from the Saudi's? When you make statements such as that, which have no basis in fact, it just destroys your credibility on much else of what you post as fact.— tom - wilmington, de
- Tal, you saw the Iraq war debate and vote in Congress? Were you there? Are you really a former Congressman who was defeated in 2006? Are you Joe Hoffman? Were you also at NASA for the Global Warming Censorship and at Abu Grahib for the torture sessions? Wow. You really get around.— tom - wilmington, de
- Tom from Wilmington- 10% of our oil comes from the Saudis. Thank you for the correction. see link...................http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html.......................... And our demand is only going to increase. smart cars, hybrids or not.— Alvenada
- Wow, I had forgotten that, swedes.— pj katauskas
- Tom- Yes I was wrong. My apologies. Canada, Mexico, Nigeria then the Saudi's. Many of the countries on that list despotic regimes. I guess we could all ride bikes. My suggestion would be to drill for our own oil but I guess that's just crazy talk.
- Tal: Nice list. And to think you've got 108 more!. This is like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon— Alvenada
- Same old, same old w/minor changes in the President's 'new' healthcare plan. Talk about doubling down on failure. Here we go again & this is no way to get the economy going again, imho. ***WASHINGTON -- More than a year after taking office, President Obama yesterday released his own health-care plan -- with a trillion-dollar cost, no public option and higher taxes on the wealthy...The plan boosts the Medicare payroll tax for individuals earning more than $200,000 per year and couples earning over $250,000. The capital-gains tax would be pushed up to 22.9 percent by 2011, a spike from the 15-percent rate now and the 20 percent set to take hold next year... It also includes a litany of taxes and fees on businesses, the medical industry, and individuals to pay for reform, while also wringing savings out of Medicare reforms... Obama's plan raises the size of the plan that gets hit, to $27,500 for families, while delaying its implementation... People would be mandated to buy care and taxed on a percentage of their income if they don't, while firms with more than 50 employees would have to pay the feds if they don't provide insurance. Low-income people would get subsidies and exemptions.*** Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/two_sides_k7zok5AWLchzwvt6xI5aMM#ixzz0gMyLd6MN— NEPhilly
- Talvenada and Alvenada, are you folks related or are those handles just purely coincidental? Just curious.— pj katauskas
- Still Independent is going to coming after me now. I cannot wait for this. In defense my original quote on the U.S. buying oil from the Saudis from the previous blog was.......... " As for oil I think we buy most of our oil from Mexico, Nigeria, and Venezuela ( but that's OK, Danny Glover likes Chavez). One thing is for sure, the left certainly won't let us drill in our own country."....... I was only right on 2 out of the 3. And our 4th largest supplier is in fact the Saudi's.
- NE Philly- 950 billion in new spending. Our government cannot control themselves.
- TOM: Guilt by question? ......... I didn't have to be there with the miracle of television, and everything gets reported, which is not like when McCain joined the senate in 10 BC. I didn't have to be there to know that congress was going to recess before the election, that the war authorization--IF NEEDED DUE TO TIME CONSTRAINTS--wasn't a declaration of war, and that the vote was less than 24 hours after it was put on the table. The redacted documents on global warming were shown on TV, and more was blacked out than visible. I saw on TV that Bush was angry with Rummy for not telling him about Abu Gharib until it was to be televised. Bush was angry because he was kept out of the loop, IMHO. Weak leadership? I watch a lot of news and politics, liberal and conservative. Cluck on, Tom. You have 5 new ones to disprove with your usual diplomatic aplomb. MOCKvenada, MIKEW, and you want this 20 more days of a celebration of Bush-Cheney governance.— Talvenada
- PJ: MOCKvenada came to the forum to insult me, because our views are different. He needs to discourage opinions unlike his own, and insults disprove everything another poster says with only a minute of effort.— Talvenada
- I knew what conse pubs were mod lib dems But W has questionable acts therefore I am Alvenada. Hence the origination of my " handle ". PAT KENNEDY, TIP O'NEILL, PAT CADELL, TOM BOSLEY AND DONNIE MOST— Alvenada
- swede, crazy isn't it? It is the audacity of liberal govt. proponents such as our President that amazes me the most. I guess losing Teddy's seat over this nonsense wasn't enough, talk about a tin ear. Raising taxes and growing the govt. for healthcare while the rest of the country suffers from 10% unemployment is a recipe for disaster for the lib'dems. I guess the 2010 elections will have to finish the job Scott Brown started:)— NEPhilly
- MOCKvenada: You've left it to Mike W and Tom to defend Bush-Cheney, while you stand on the sidelines with only insults.— Talvenada
- We are on the 2nd day of questionable acts and you've got the Terry Schaivo case? It was a heartwrenching case. The parents wanted to keep her alive, the husband didn't. In the end she was starved to death until her organs shut down. Bush is a bad person for defending the parents will to keep her alive?— Alvenada
- Tal, I thought maybe you two were like Mary Matlin and James Carville, who actually are incredibly courteous to each other when they are on CNN on Sundays, even though they are light years apart on politics,usually, anyway.— pj katauskas
- Tal - keeping with the tone of the day......... Would you like me to do your list tomorrow. Have a nice night.— Mike Welbourn
- swedesboromike : I only chastise you for factual incorrectness when those facts are germaine to the argument. Our support of those despotic regimes goes far beyond foreign aid, although it does include that. If you are denying that we strongly support the regimes in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan, then I have no idea what to tell you. we do. Unless that was soemone else I saw GW strolling hand-in-hand with.— still_independent
- NEPhilly: odd that you mentioned Scott Brown. He was one of five Republicans to vote in favor of the jobs bill. Perhaps he is a bit more moderate, as several of us contended.— still_independent
- MOCKvenada: Guilt by order? ......... I said 118. I didn't say what order they'd be in, or if all the toughest to swallow would be first, last or in the middle. I'll mix them in. The offer was 118 at 5 a day, and YOU bit. Cluck on, MOCKY. You forgot that the parents were Conse 'Pubs, and the legislation was based not on what doctors said or the years involved. It was what only the parents wanted.— Talvenada
- Still Independent- check out this link..............http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html................... It has importers, producers, exporters, consumers etc. We are all interconnected. It's probably done more to keep peace than we think. The reality is that we need fuel to power America. Cars and trucks run on gasoline. Yes we consume the most of any country on the planet but that is a testimony to our prosperity.
- MIKEW: Hey, Mocky needs you and Tom to do the heavy lifting, and now you're going to put it all on Tom??? No defense today? If you don't reply, it makes you right? Don't have the stomach for it?— Talvenada
- still, I did see that and he drew the ire of the hard right for that vote. I don't have a problem with him voting for it. I also don't have a problem with him beng a moderate, after all as he is from Mass. As long as he stops this healthcare fiasco in its tracks, he is worth it:) Do we know what is in this jobs bill?— NEPhilly
- I'm not making a case one way or another for Terry Schiavo. What I think may have bothered many of us was the fact that the president wanted to call a special session of Congress to discuss this case and prevent the husband from making the call. It was a heart-wrenching one, to be sure, but a family matter. Look, these kinds of decisions must be made every day. I was the hold-out when my father had a massive stroke. Everyone else, including the doctors, wanted to turn off the ventilator. I'm just saying, it's hard enough for the family without getting national attention and Congress on your back. And the autopsy did show that most of her brain was liquid.— NigeltheMastiff
- NIGEL: Conse 'Pubs are the ones who want the government to stay out of their lives.— Talvenada
- Ne Philly- In the jobs bill is a one time extra payment of $ 250 to social security recipients, an exemption for the businesses contribution to social security for new hires through December plus an additional $ 1000 tax credit if the new worker stays on the job for one year. Estimated cost is 15 billion. To hear Obama and Biden tell it the Stimulus bill is working. It it is working so well then why are we passing this bill?
- Did you see my 9:18am post on last thread. Like many people have said on this thread everybody is entitled to their OPINIONS (Cheney hit squads). But that doesn't make it a fact. My stomach is hurting a bit (laughing to hard). Thanks for asking. Again I make my offer. I'll start writing them down right now if you want.— Mike Welbourn
- I look forward to 5 more pieces of liberal venom meat! Now giddyup, you don't want to miss steak night at the institution.— Alvenada
- swede, it is kind of silly to say the old stimulus is working but we need a new one as well. A full exemption from payroll taxes for business' and employees is one of the ways I originally said stimulus could work to get money in Americans hands quickly (not govt. spending), if that is what you wanted to do. Too bad the govt. already wasted $1 Tril on the original stimulus and this one is just a drop in the bucket.— NEPhilly
- NEPhilly, I freely admit I'm a word nerd, not a numbers cruncher. But I fail to see how giving businesses and employers a big tax cut will assure greater and immediate hiring. If businesses are hurting ... well, let's say I were a business owner. If my sales had tanked and my equipment was running on jury-rigged threads, I wouldn't go out and hire people with any extra money. I'd fix my equipment and pay off my bills. If sales aren't there, how can a company hire people? Am I missing something?— NigeltheMastiff
- Nigel- That is going to be the problem with this jobs bill. It's affects will be very limited.
- Nigel - While I think there should have been better way for it to be handled than just pulling to tubes on Schiavo. In the end I think the right thing was done. My problem with the whole thing was the husband had a long term fiance which he had two children with. He ended up marrying her 9 months after Terri died. I think he had just a bit of a conflict of interest in Terri death and I did trust him to make the decision. I think the show South Park had the best explanation of the whole episode. Terri's husband did the right thing for the wrong reason. While Terri's parents did the wrong thing for the right reason. A sad situation no matter how you look at it.— Mike Welbourn
- Sorry. That should have been "I did not trust him to make the decision"— Mike Welbourn
- MOCKY: Again, you're on the sidelines carping with no defense. You PUT that on your conservative brothers. ............... MIKEW: Cheney assassination squads were not in the first 10 listed. I said questionable actions, and since that was reported it qualifies. I said 118 and that not all would be good or bad, real or perceived. I thought questionable spelled things out, but not to Conse 'Pubs apparently.— Talvenada
- nigel, I said employees and businesses. If average people (not just businesses) have more $$$ in their pocket, then your sales as a business owner will go up. If your sales go up, then you higher more people. Then those people have more money to buy your products and so on. The point of govt. stimulus usually is to start that ball rolling, but our friends on the lib'dem side decided that govt. could spend that $$$ more efficiently than private business and citizens. And here we are.— NEPhilly
- Alvenada wrote: "I knew what conse pubs were mod lib dems But W has questionable acts therefore I am Alvenada. Hence the origination of my " handle ". PAT KENNEDY, TIP O'NEILL, PAT CADELL, TOM BOSLEY AND DONNIE MOST." Can someone translate that gibberish for me? Or should I care?— pj katauskas
- "Cheney assassination squads were not in the first 10 listed"................................. Well, you lost me on this one.. Remember steak night at the psychiatric hospital starts at 5. One ticket per person.— Alvenada
- NEPhilly, sorry. I read it as employers. Old and dim eyes, I'm afraid. And MikeW, you could very well be correct. There did seem to be a conflict of interest. (After all, why not just get a divorce?) But that's still a separate issue from having Congress interfere in such a decision. I completely agree that the entire situation was very, very sad but it was a family matter. Honestly, I feel for the parents, too. I can't bear to think about such a fate befalling my own daughter. I'm not sure I could pull the plug.— NigeltheMastiff
- PJ: As I said, MOCKvenada came here writing gibberish to discredit my posts. He says his posts look like mine to him, and my posts make no sense. .................... MOCKY: What number is it, Conse 'Pub or should I say CPINO?— Talvenada
- pj katauskas: Meet me at the Conse Pub and I'll explain. It's the little watering hole located between Flaming Liberal and Gibberish.— Alvenada
- Al, is it right next door to the Center-Right Diner, you know the one most Americans frequent?— pj katauskas
- The real whiners are in the White House.— pj katauskas
- Tal - Anything reported on that you think is QUESTIONABLE whether it is factual or not can go on your list. So what you are saying is facts don't matter just opinions. I'm starting to wonder why I ever thought it was a waste of time to discuss things logically with you.— Mike Welbourn
- pj katauskas: Yup, that's the one.— Alvenada
- Mike Welbourn- I really gotta see his list. Don't discourage him. I wanna see every last one of his 118 questionable acts. It's going to get real interesting as he tries to recycle the same old stuff then pawn it off as questionable act # 57.— Alvenada
- MIKEW: I said questionable and that means suspicious decisions by the executive branch. OJ's verdict is questionable. He was found innocent, which by your definition of Bush means it never happened if he wasn't convicted. ..............MOCKY: Guilt by theory? Nice and easy slime, just the way you like it. I'm sure you won't wait until day 12 to accuse me of recycling, day 6 maybe?— Talvenada
- NEPhilly: interesting read. Apparently the union giveaway in the old healthcare plan (which I was against, for disclosure's sake) wasn't really a union giveaway. "It turns out, the Senate-passed tax would affect mainly nonunion workers, and by a wide margin. The study found that under the compromise version of the tax, 17 percent of those affected in 2019 would be union workers and 83 percent would not. It also projects that 71 percent of the dollar savings from the supposed "wet kiss for labor" would actually go to nonunion workers. So the chief beneficiaries of the "sweetheart deal" are not union members at all." .... http://www.factcheck.org/2010/02/cadillac-plans-and-unions-correlation-minimal/— still_independent
- Regarding oil use, why not strive to perfect automotive technology to advance hybrids and electric cars? If you cut 50% from the gasoline used in a hybrid, that adds up. Electric technology has advanced dramatically in the last five years. There's a lot of work being done in alternatives to power industrial and commercial operations (solar, wind, fuel cell) Like government spending, a billion here, a billion there, it adds up to real money.— JimR
- still, at this point does the nuance really matter? The real point is congress doesn't know what it will do or whom it will affect when they talk about all this. It is too big and too complex for the govt. to run it from Wash DC & even if they had the ability, I wouldn't trust them to do so. Look how having Congress in charge of Fannie/Freddie has worked out for 1 example:) The president's proposal is a 'hail mary' pass on healthcare, the same old nonsense (granted less some of the most nauseating things) already rejected and is DOA, imho:) They couldn't pass it w/ 60 sens, 250+ reps and the president for 1 reason. The American people don't want any part of it by a big margin (see scot brown). The lib'dems think that the people are not smart enough to understand it (elitism at its best/worst), but make no mistake we understand it just fine and we just don't think it is a good idea. Time to move on, Mr. President:)— NEPhilly
- Tal, I believe everyone in government should have stayed out of the Terry Schiavo matter. It should have been a personal family matter and not one for legislative action. As for the others, are you really going to call signing legislation a questionable act? So would the EPA monitoring CO2 be a questionable act for Obama? How about Obama signing the non-stimulating stimulus bill, is that a questionable act? What about him appointing a deficit commission after, on Sept 16, 2008, saying a commission is the oldest trick in the book and just a way to duck the tough decisions by showing a lack of leadership? Is that a questionable act? Afghan war outsourcing? Who ruled the FISA law was broken by the wiretapping? Was that an actual court decision? To paraphrase Al Gore, has any legal authority ruled on that matter? And just where is the Blackwater Rape you mention, since I could find nothing about it anywhere.— tom - wilmington, de
- Tal, I believe the problem has been identified. You get all your information from television, where you say "everything gets reported". Perhaps you should stop watching just one channel, since Matthews, Shuster, Schultz, Olberman and Maddow (fine men, one and all), do not report everything. No channel reports everything. Try reading more, and more than just one source.— tom - wilmington, de
- The jobs bill will not create any jobs, What business will hire a worker at $20-$25K per year based on not having to pay 6.2% FICA tax AND get a $1,000 credit if they last more than 6 months. Where is the revenue going to come from to pay this worker? Perhaps they will hire someone, take the $1,000 credit at 6 months, then fire them after 7 months. Brilliant thinking by Mr. Harry Reid.— tom - wilmington, de
- tom: I hate to point this out, but you've just undermined the whole "corporate taxes cost the US jobs argument" that you frequently make. You just argued that a 6.2% tax cut will not create any jobs.— still_independent
- Talvenada, first, OJ was found "Not Guilty", he was never determined to be innocent. Second, you said the acts are "real or perceived", so again, they are in your imagination. And how can acts by the legislative branch be questionable acts by the executive branch? For example, the Iraq War resolution was debated in Congress, yet you have it as a questionable act by Bush. So did he go to Congress and vote on it? I believe your liberal democrat views are way tilted.— tom - wilmington, de
- Still, no,that is not what I argued. What I argued is saying a business gets a temporary 6.2% tax break for any new hires (it expires at 12/31/2009) as well as a $1,000 tax credit if the new hire stays on the job for six months will not cause a business to hire someone without corresponding revenue. A 6.2% tax cut on a NEW hire, if the person is making $25K per year, is only $1,550 on an annual basis. However, exempting 6.2% on the entire payroll, or giving a 6.2% tax cut on profits, would generate much more capital for investment and expansion. See the difference?— tom - wilmington, de
- still_independent, one problem with the union-non-union argument about the cadillac tax amendment. The amendment specifically exempts "for state and local government employees and collectively bargained plans until 2018.", as pointed out by the study done by the Univ of CA at Berkeley. The argument was then made that what elected official was then going to vote against continuing that exemption when its expiration came about in 2019? Ergo, while it is true that the vast majority of employees affected could work for non-union firms and/or non-government agencies, those non-union/non-government workers would not be immediately affected, and perhaps never would be. The study also shows that the impact to these union/government workers does not really come into play until 2024 under the amendment. Therein lies the problem.— tom - wilmington, de
- tom: assuming that you meant it expired December 2010, I didn't realize it expired in less than a year. And yes, I get your more general point that exempting the entire workforce would obviously generate mroe capital.— still_independent
- tom : I think you munged up the second half of your cadillac tax plan exemption argument, so I'm not sure how to respond. I think you used non-union a couple of times when you mean union, but I'm not sure.— still_independent
- still_independent, yes, I muddled the union/non-union bits. I would like to revise and extend my comment, just like in the Senate...Ergo, while it is true that the vast majority of employees affected could work for non-union firms and/or non-government agencies, those who are union/government workers would not be immediately affected, and perhaps never would be. The study also shows that the impact to these union/government workers does not really come into play until 2024 under the amendment. Therein lies the problem. And you are also correct about 12/31/2010. All I see now are the numbers 1040, 1120 and 990 along with the letters A, C, SE, E, M and K..— tom - wilmington, de
- I wonder it Talvenada will label those mistakes as questionable acts on my part. Is he keeping a list on me too?— tom - wilmington, de
- Tal - Also you make such broad statements like "THE CLEAN AIR ACT that lowered the restrictions on pollution" (C&P) Lower restriction on what? Ozone. You are right he lowered it from 80ppb to 75ppb but that was a good thing. As for Blackwater they do fall under U.S. law. A couple of Blackwater employees have already been convicted. I thought almost everybody (Obama, Biden, Clinton, Kerry...) said the Afgan war was the correct war. If you think capturing bin Laden was our primary gold. How would we have done that without invading Afganistan?— Mike Welbourn
- Are we really building a new embassy in the UK that will cost in excess of $1 Billion?— tom - wilmington, de
- Eric Holder just recently told Congress that 9 appointees to the DOJ are former attorney's who represented GITMO terrorist detainees. Holder has, in the name of the promised Obama admin transparency, released the names of only two of these appointees. Is this a non-story?— tom - wilmington, de
- Tal - Sorry I forgot to finish the point I was trying to make. Don't just make a broad statement like the clean air one. Give a little more back ground info (what,when,where,how). That way we can check to see if what you are questioning is REASONABLE or if you are just a NUT. So, I expect more info on 11-15.— Mike Welbourn
- tom: I used to be in a limited parnership arrangement. For some unexplainable reason, I was the accountant. "K" still makes me shudder this time of year (we were too cheap to buy turbo tax for small business)— still_independent
- One more comment on the topic of Polman's post...did anyone see CNN on Sunday? There was a piece about the reasons for the deep polarization in Washington. It was fascinating to hear what various people who currently serve in Congress and those who have retired (including Bayh) had to say. One comment was that politicians don't bring their families to live in DC anymore. He said it was pretty difficult to call someone a traitor if you saw that person on weekends at your respective children's soccer games. It's well worth seeing, if you can find it on CNN's site.— NigeltheMastiff
- tom -- Holder and those 9 political appointee attorneys at DOJ are on very thin ethical ice if they in fact are working on GTMO matters having previously represented GTMO prisoners. SEN Grassley is like a bulldog when he gets on an issue, so I don't think Holder's dismissive letter to him will be the last word.— pj katauskas
- NigeltheMastiff : I heard one pol commenting that the reason House votes are always scheduled for Monday afternoons is to force members to get back in DC Monday morning. He said otherwise, they wouldn't show up 'till late Monday evening, and nothing would get done until Tuesday. Sad....— still_independent
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Cited by the Columbia Journalism Review as one of the nation's top political reporters, and lauded by the ABC News political website as "one of the finest political journalists of his generation," Dick Polman is a national political columnist at the Philadelphia Inquirer. He is on the full-time faculty at the University of Pennsylvania, as "writer in residence." Dick has been a frequent guest on C-Span, MSNBC, CNN, NPR and the BBC. He covered the 1992, 1996, 2000, and 2004 presidential campaigns.
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All commentaries posted before April 18, 2008, can be accessed at www.dickpolman.blogspot.com.
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