Sunday, May 19, 2013
Sunday, May 19, 2013

Playing hardball or pulling punches?

Is Chris Matthews skewing his show to aid his prospective candidacy?

158 comments

Playing hardball or pulling punches?

POSTED: Friday, December 12, 2008, 10:38 AM

While watching Hardball last night, I became convinced that Chris Matthews is indeed positioning himself for a U.S. Senate bid from Pennsylvania - simply because of the way he was pulling his punches on the air.

Some observers argue that Matthews has been using his MSNBC forum to butter up the key politicians whom he would need in his corner during a Senate campaign against incumbent Arlen Specter. Case in point, his relentless slobbering over Gov. Ed Rendell. (Nov. 4: "You're the best political analyst in Pennsylvania, governor." Oct. 23: "You're the best pol in the state." April 2: "I think Eddie Rendell is the smartest politician in the state, as we know." Feb. 13: "One the smartest people in politics.") Although I suppose that, as a counter-argument, it's worth noting that Matthews lavishes this kind of praise on many of his guests - including the journalists, many of whom are lauded as preeminent sages.

No, what concerns me - and this should also concern MSNBC - is when he appears (and perception is important) to fall silent for his own partisan ends.

Last night, for instance, he spent considerable time recounting the latest developments in the Rod Blagojevich debacle in Illinois - which, as he accurately noted, is a classic case of "pay to play" corruption (politicians skewing their decisions to benefit those who have ponied up the campaign cash). He then remarked, several times, that "pay to play" is not just a Chicago phenomenon, that in fact the practice has been common in other cities. He didn't, however, mention any specific cities.

Indeed, I kept waiting for him to cite the most obvious recent example, the most journalistically valid example, but he never did:

The city of Philadelphia.

On his show, Matthews often uses any excuse to talk about his native city - the politics, the pols, the wards. But, curiously, not this time.

Back in 2003, Philadelphia was rocked by an going FBI probe of "pay to play" practices in City Hall, under the regime of Mayor John Street. The FBI even planted a bug in Street's office. The whole thing dragged on for a couple years. In the end, the probe led to more than a dozen indictments and 10 convictions. Matthews could have booked any number of talking heads to recount the Philadelphia experience (such as the Committee of Seventy civic watchdog group), and he could even have noted that, in a sense, the scandals ended happily - with the passage of ethics reform (via referendum, in 2005), and the election of a reform-minded mayor in 2007.

Instead, Matthews said nothing about Philadelphia.

I happen to be a Matthews fan, if only because his authentic enthusiasm for politics is so infectuous, and because the guy on camera is the same guy off camera. My favorite encounter with Matthews was in June 1999, when we and other journos were up in Maine early one dewy morning, awaiting the arrival of newly-announced candidate George W. Bush; while shooting the breeze, Matthews told me that, when he was a kid growing up in Northeast Philadelphia, he dreamed of becoming either the editorial page editor of The Philadelphia Inquirer, or the Philadelphia police chief. And I've since been a guest on the show a handful of times.

But this omission of Philadelphia from the discussion of "pay to play"...well, that just didn't look good, at least in journalistic terms. One can easily imagine that the last thing a prospective Democratic senatorial candidate from Pennsylvania would want to do is tick off the major Democratic players in the most populous Democratic city. And such a prospective candidate would indeed risk ticking off these major players (starting with Rendell and Bob Brady), by bringing up "old business" that puts the city in a bad light. So the prudent strategy, it appears, was to say nothing.

Prospective candidates make these kinds of calculations all the time. The difference here is that this prospective candidate hosts a national TV show that is expected to cover politics without any hint of self-interest.

Obviously, nobody can channel Matthews and determine whether he went mute on Philadelphia simply to guard his political options. But it is easy to perceive it this way, and that's his growing problem. As Democratic operative Phil Singer asked on his blog earlier this month, "If Matthews is going to run as a Democrat in what will likely be a contested primary, will he be willing to play hardball when his fellow Democrats are in the news?...More to the point, will viewers think he is covering politics without fear or favor."

At some point soon, Matthews will need to make his intentions perfectly clear, either by giving up the candidacy, or giving up the show. Because the longer he sticks with the latter while exploring the former, the more he risks losing credibility with his loyal viewers.

158 comments
Comments  (158)
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 12:27 PM, 12/15/2008
    That crazy Iraqi just had to be a liberal. And on the issue of personal responsibility, my friends divide between liberal and conservative and between downright stingy and financially feckless. And the lines dividing these categories are far from the same. It's idiotic to attach personal character issues to one's political ideology.
    liberal
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 12:25 PM, 12/15/2008
    Swedesboro: You own a Jeep Cherokee and a Town and Country minivan. That's an SUV and a van. I don't have any problem with your choice in cars, but my posts were referring to the failed business model of the U.S. automakers. They neglected the compact car market. And they're design, especially in that segment, in is inferior to foreign makers like Honda and Toyota. By the way, I'll take a Honda Pilot over a Jeep Cherokee any day.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 12:12 PM, 12/15/2008
    An Iraqi journalist threw a shoe at President Bush on his farewell visit to Iraq. No joke necessary.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:57 AM, 12/15/2008
    Fisher: You don't need a college degree to be a stockbroker either.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:47 AM, 12/15/2008
    Fisher: Nonsense. A police officer can start at over $30K, with excellent benefits, with potential for growth. Oh yeah, they have a union too.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:32 AM, 12/15/2008
    Fisher. I’ve saved 10-12% of my earnings for a rainy day (or retirement) I don’t sit on the sofa watching sportscenter. I’ve had some kind of job since I was 14 years old. I’ve put my trust and my money in the American economy and seen almost half of it evaporate from greed and mismanagement. Greed is not locked up by blue-collar union members. At least in the auto industry, the blue collars are producing a product. The top management isn’t. Even at $100K/year for a production worker, the CEO of Ford makes the equivalent of 200 workers. Your generalizations are ridiculous.
    JimR
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:19 AM, 12/15/2008
    s-mike. Who determined that there are enough laws to protect workers?Most of the rules that exist, are there because a group of workers screamed for them - not because a benevolent management offered them.
    JimR
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:49 AM, 12/15/2008
    It's rather sad when Matthews would be a better Senator than that wretch Spector.
    chasing history
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:08 AM, 12/15/2008
    So much lies an misinformation being spread by loons and left wingnuts about that auto bailout mess. GM and the Unions wrote their end years ago, for example GM had a $10.5 billion loss in 2005. They could not even make money when times were good. Why give them a dime? They are so flawed nothing will help them.
    CD75
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:54 AM, 12/15/2008
    Fisher- not the liberals on this blog. They are entitlement brats. government must provide everything. From each according to his ability and to each according to his means. That's the democrats these days
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:21 AM, 12/15/2008
    "If you need help, you expect the government to provide it." wrote Djoko Pritza. How about your family and friends? How about your church? How about saving 10-12% of your earnings for rainy days? How about getting your backside off the sofa watching sportscenter every night and keep yourself employed?
    Fisher
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:16 AM, 12/15/2008
    p-diddy: Health care is the best now with the best coverage historical. Personal greed keeps you wanting more. UAW works pay nothing for healthcare, include precriptions. No other job in the country can high-school grads start make 30k a year and after benefits make nearly 60k. It is an insult to the rest of the workers in the USA. Everyone makes a better car than GM. It is not a matter of failure, it is a matter of when those workers get released into the market place.
    Fisher
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:07 AM, 12/15/2008
    Talvenada- There are some sensible democrats. But the left wing of the democratic party has lost it's way. A few examples would be the hysterics over global warming, appeasement and blaming America first.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:08 PM, 12/14/2008
    SW MIKE: Let me get this straight. Those who disagree w/ conservs have something wrong w/ them, did something wrong or didn't get it right? Or they disagree from an inferior bankrupt position to YOU and your conserv brothers? Like Ann--does all the talking to and over--Coulter, who wrote that Libs are mental defects? Sounds like you, no?
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:19 PM, 12/14/2008
    President Bush was ducking shoes thrown by an a journalist employed by an Egyptian news agency. It was some of the funniest video you will ever see. But what is telling about it that it proves once again that people who disent with conservatives resort to emotion. Like when Ann Coulter gets a pie thrown in her face at a college campus. Rather than wait for the Q & A section the disenters resort to violence because in the arena of ideas and debate they are bankrupt
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:14 PM, 12/14/2008
    Talvenada- I believe in fiscal responsibility, low taxes, and national defense. I call em as I see em. I agree with President Bush on Foreign policy and low taxes but little else. The creation of the office of Homeland Security was not being fiscally responsible nor was pushing for and passing a prescription drug program.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:07 PM, 12/14/2008
    SW MIKE: Good point: it must be me or something I did or did not do. ................................ Disagreeing w/ you or other conservs is only possible if you defend Bush 90% of the time, no?
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:54 PM, 12/14/2008
    Djoko Priza- Please do not preach to me. The contribution I make to the Federal, state, and local government in taxes is sickening. They should name a park after me.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:44 PM, 12/14/2008
    "Consitutionally the federal government is only there to provide for the common defense. Nothing more and nothing less." Smike, what about those roads your trucks travel over? You're like all business owners -- if you can make money without any help, fine. If you need help, you expect the government to provide it. You have a very simplistic view of how the world works.
    Djoko Pritza
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:41 PM, 12/14/2008
    smike -- you don't really answer the question; there are enough laws on the books to protect workers -- according to whom? you? you're a business owner. you'll do whatever you can get away with to maximize your proftis. if your workers have no options, that will be the best of all possible worlds for you.
    Djoko Pritza
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:36 PM, 12/14/2008
    s/mike, regarding the constitutional mandate of the federal government, I quote a preamble that we had to memorize in high school: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
    liberal
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:35 PM, 12/14/2008
    Talvenda- you are reading too many press clippings. 6.5 percent unemployment is 1/5th of what it was during the great depression. I went to Home Depot and Total Wine in Claymont DE on Saturday and there was not a parking spot available. The framing crew building the house next to me sounds like they are speaking Russian. Point being, we still have jobs Americans will not do. I aksed my Dad about this who grew up during the great depression and he told me " it aint even close "
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:34 PM, 12/14/2008
    SW MIKE: Sorry, I meant what is Bush doing NOW to fix problems that are more current on his watch. I know, it must have been Clinton and Obama. BTW, the economy going down the toilet makes us vulnerable to terrorists, dictators, etc.
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:10 PM, 12/14/2008
    Talvenda- Bush did well by keeping us safe after 9-11. His domestic policy was far to liberal to my liking. Creation of the Homeland Security Department and the Presciption drug progam cost a lot of money and will cost a lot of money for eternity. Consitutionally the federal government is only there to provide for the common defense. Nothing more and nothing less.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:06 PM, 12/14/2008
    Djoko Priza- You asked " what will it be like when the sun sets on the unions " Well the number of union jobs in the private sector has been dwindling for the past 60 years. There are enough laws on the books to protect workers. Unions had their day but they are no longer needed
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:16 PM, 12/14/2008
    SW MIKE: Unlike you, I don't control anything.
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:04 PM, 12/14/2008
    Tom, you say, “Djoko...you need to read things without using the liberal prism as your magnifying glass. The UAW would not accept wage concessions in 2009, but wanted to wait until the current contract was up in 2011.” Tom, I know that, but the issue was whether the UAW and Corker had a deal that didn’t include the wage date, and it was rejected by the Senate Repubs. To be honest, I’m not sure what actually happened. Some say the UAW was intransigent and that killed the deal. Some say the Senate Repub caucus was dedicated to finding a way to kill the deal no matter what. I haven’t seen a definitive account yet. Liberal prism or not, I do think the rightwing would like to stick a stake in the UAW’s heart. Say the Repubs are successful and the union is killed off, what, as I asked smike, then?
    Djoko Pritza
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:55 PM, 12/14/2008
    SW MIKE: So, what's Bush doing that's so great? Other than doing every thing he can to have the country do things his way after 2/1 by last-minute policies? He creates the mess, and will only help out as a last resort. That is, after he bolviates about his legacy.
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:54 PM, 12/14/2008
    smike, you said earlir today, "I think you will learn very quickly how frustrating it is to control the Presidency and have super majorities in Congress. You get all the blame." You just don't know how this tugged at my heartstrings.
    Djoko Pritza
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:47 PM, 12/14/2008
    smike, you say, "The sun is setting on unions in the private sector." OK, what's the work environment going to be like after the sun has set?
    Djoko Pritza
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:20 PM, 12/14/2008
    Talvenda- Let us review where we are at with Obama. The staffers cannot figure out if they talked to Blago or not. We will be in Iraq for 3 more years according to Obama and we'll be sending 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan. He is threatening Nuclear retailiation up Iran and has told us that the economy is going to get worse. He certainly has completely changed tunes from the audacity of hope and change and ran on.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 4:56 PM, 12/14/2008
    SW MIKE: Who you kidding? You are using Bush as a crutch, because The Pubs don't need a reason to do a Clinton on Obama. I guess you went after Clinton to avenge 41, no?
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 4:40 PM, 12/14/2008
    Talvenada- I will extend the same grace and good will that was extended to President Bush. If the wars end with us winning and the economy improves I might vote for Obama. Like I have said before we'll wait and see what he does. I think he is a bright person and I think the Cindy Sheehan wing of the democratic party is going to be very upset in short order
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 4:06 PM, 12/14/2008
    SW MIKE: It isn't just Obama; it would be any and all Dem presidents.
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 3:50 PM, 12/14/2008
    SW MIKE: Saddam & bin Laden as enemies to join forces, to be working together on 9/11, and nuke us didn't pass the Chaney smell test either, which meant go to war w/ Iraq. Just cannot put one pass you conservs. .............................. It's not about feeling the heat; it's about Pub politics, win or lose. If every Dem president gets impeached, you cannot impeach a Pub, because it would be labeled revenge. Then, how can anyone elect a party known for being impeached, and you cannot, can you?
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:46 PM, 12/14/2008
    As the center of gravity in the democratic party shifts toward what the republicans love to revile as the "east and west coast elites," the party's gut-level identification with workers and unions has faded substantially. As you right-wingers justifiably lampoon, leading democrats keep showing up with low-paid illegal nannies, etc. Of course republicans do too, but their ideology says this is OK, so it is not quite as embarassing. The whole problem is that the entire political system has veered to the right, with the investor class now calling the shots, and with no pushback from workers. I'm beginning to sound like somebody from the far left; there's nothing like an economic crisis to enable one to see that amid all the looniness there are some sound ideas ideas from the left. It has a lot to do with realizing that even though you have a 401(k) (now in the toilet) you're really just a wage slave and not an investor.
    liberal
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:42 AM, 12/14/2008
    Nancy Pelosi loves unions. She gets tons of campaign cash from the unions. But guess what? There is not one UFW worker on her Napa Valley Vineyard. Nor is the United Hotel and Restaurant workers unions employed in her chain of restuarants that she owns. I guess all these left wing hypocrates assume no one will poke around and find out the truth on what they really think of the unions. And this from the winner of Cesar Chavez award.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:28 AM, 12/14/2008
    Liberals love unions. That is of course until it affects their wallet. Ever wonder why so many hollywood films are shot in Vancouver and Toronto? workers on Michael Moore's TV show tried to unionize and what did Moore do? He fired them
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:03 AM, 12/14/2008
    tom from Wilmington- p diddy responses are grounded in left wing emotion. Yesterday I laid out the facts of UAW pension fund obligations and his come back was to tell me that all I want to do " take the pension away from retirees "
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:57 AM, 12/14/2008
    diddy...I am really beginning to wonder if you can read and, if so, do you comprehend what you are reading. I never mentioned retirees. Never said a word about blaming retirees. Yet you call me a joke for mentioning retirees. From where did you get that? Djoko...you need to read things without using the liberal prism as your magnifying glass. The UAW would not accept wage concessions in 2009, but wanted to wait until the current contract was up in 2011. However, the debt holders agreed to take their cut by March of 2009. The UAW also is believed to have told Corker that since the White House would come to their aid, they saw no need to take any cuts as proposed by the Republcans in the Senate. Yes, that UAW is blaming the Republicans, and through your liberal looking glass the UAW is free from blame, but unfortunately your view is completely off base and wrong, as supported by the facts. Yeah, those darn facts are back. Interesting article in the NY Times today about Schumer and his push for financial deregulation. Again it is the Pubs fault, no blame to the Dems. Those darn facts again.
    tom - wilmington, de
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:57 AM, 12/14/2008
    Liberal- no body said there are autoworkers making $ 200,000. I said by the time we done with this we'll have cars designed by Congress and rivetors making $ 200,000 a year. A UAW worker makes $ 28 per hour. Factor in the pension and benefits and it is much higher . laid off workers in the jobs bank make 85% of their salary for doing nothing. Here is the part where you tell me they really don't make that much. I will tell I agree with you but how much do you think assembly line work should pay. When you competitor pays $ 28 per hour and has no pension that is a recipe for the UAW companys to fail.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:49 AM, 12/14/2008
    Liberal- the non union automakers are in this predicament. The market determines wages not some fat cat union boss.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:45 AM, 12/14/2008
    There's no doubt that the auto companies will have to shed their pension obligations in order to survive. They've already spent the money and have no way to earn it back. But note that these pensions are back wages. What can you say about the morality of a system that produces this result?
    liberal
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:35 AM, 12/14/2008
    The $200,000 assembly-line worker is a myth like the welfare queen, designed to silence rational debate. The argument that workers are paid too much, and investors' power to keep wages low by stacking the deck in their favor, is at heart the root of the current economic crisis. Wages have stagnated for 30 years, and workers have been forced to keep ahead by assuming a mountain of debt. This was the same scenario (flat wage growth) that led up to the 1929 crisis. It seems to be the inevitable result of investors' making the rules for the economy.
    liberal
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:14 AM, 12/14/2008
    Talvenada-If you can't stand the heat you should not be in the kitchen. I think you will learn very quickly how frustrating it is to control the Presidency and have super majorities in Congress. You get all the blame. If by summer this economy is improving and we are still in two wars there is going to be a cacaphony of disent. Obama made a lot of promises that he cannot possibly deliver on
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:05 AM, 12/14/2008
    Talvenada- Having the Red states as a separate country is a good idea. You can have your welfare state, high taxes and $ 10 a gallon gas and we'll have $ 1 a gallon gas and prosper. It certainly would make for a good case study on which philosophy is better
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:01 AM, 12/14/2008
    Talvenada- Rest assured Obama will get very same level of fairness and grace that the Democrats bestowed upon President Bush. And yes the Blago scandel isn't passing the smell test as of right now. Where is the promised transparancy of the Obama administration?
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:33 PM, 12/13/2008
    SW MIKE: You Conservs can pooh-pooh this all you want, but I've never seen an opposition B4 and after an election as rabid as this one. Find something, anything and scream foul loudly!!
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:21 PM, 12/13/2008
    SW MIKE: You know what fair-and-balanced Hannity said: the stop Obama express. ....................... How about the Conserv talking head who believes the McCain-majority states should leave the union to run things their way, not Obama's way. ....................... The calls for violence and Obama's an Arab + Hannity + Rush = what? If you cannot see it coming you're blind to it.
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:05 PM, 12/13/2008
    SW MIKE: When I said wrong, I meant wrong doing. .............. I forgot they also went into The FDR-kept-The-GD-going-7-years-more-than-Hoover's-way opine w/ the conserv professor of this brilliance, who postulated how Obama will make the same mistakes. OMG, we are so screwed, and it's ALL Obama's fault, just like Rush said. .................... Do you really think Conserv Pubs have any intention of letting Obama do something? I don't, and Rush was blaming Obama 2 months B4 he even got elected. So, that's 20 million people who've believe getting rid of Obama equals sunny days ahead.
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:18 PM, 12/13/2008
    SW MIKE: Heard my 1st impeach-Obama news-story on the radio today: 12/13/08--which is 39 days after the election, and 38 days B4 the inauguration by some cop on his computer. Wonder who he voted for? ............... Plus, the talking head says the problem is that Obama is being insulated--wrongly is insinuated--because his ouster would cause race riots. The story goes that Rahm Emanuel didn't report the Blago's crime, which is a crime. Rahm is guilty--one says, the other talking head says 50-50--which means Obama will stay on as POTUS wrongly, no doubt. BTW, I've been expecting this from the ever-diligent opposition, and I'm only surprised it took this LONG. I know, Bush meant well, tried his hardest, and--unlike Obama--did not ONE thing wrong. And you wonder why I bring up how Palin thinks she is so superior.
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:53 PM, 12/13/2008
    P diddy- guppies, sharks, and ponzi schemes. You sir are in the twilight zone on this issue. I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee and my wife has a Chysler Town and Country mini van. The products are not shoddy. The company's cost structure is too high which makes them unprofitable and this hamstrings developement of new and better products. When you go to congress and ask for billions with no plan to change the company then all facets of the big 3 deserve the scrutiny they are getting.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:46 PM, 12/13/2008
    Swede: What does it have to do with the UAW? I'm pointing out the fact that you're going after guppies when our problem is sharks.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:44 PM, 12/13/2008
    Swedesboro: You're living in Hannity's world of paranoia and scare tactics. A $200,000 per year assembly worker? Bullsh-t. Maybe somebody in a senior supervisory role, but then we're talking about exceptions.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:34 PM, 12/13/2008
    p diddy- Man you lost me on your last post. What would a 50 billion dollar ponzi scheme run by a single individual have to do with UAW?
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:29 PM, 12/13/2008
    p diddy- I will try again with you. When costs are higher than your revenue that is called being unprofitable. When your competitor makes a similar car but has a lower cost structure that is called a competitive edge. Before this whole idiotic bailout is over with we'll have rivetors making $ 200,000 a year and cars designed by congressmen. I cannot take the idiocy anymore.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:27 PM, 12/13/2008
    Swedesboro, I understand enough to know that complaining about UAW dues and pensions in our environment is beyond ludicrous. A single individual, a former Nasdaq chairman, has just defrauded investors of $50 billion. How many UAW pensions does $50 billion buy?
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:14 PM, 12/13/2008
    p diddy- you just do not understand economics. I doubt you have any experience managing a unionized workforce. The sun is setting on unions in the private sector.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:06 PM, 12/13/2008
    Swedesboro: $2 dollars more per hour, in exchange for a pension? Forget it, I give up. Instead of health benefits, we should all get corporate gym memberships....you know, personal responsibility and all that.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:57 PM, 12/13/2008
    Millionaires? In what job? An auto assembly worker?
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:56 PM, 12/13/2008
    Swedesboro: Yeah, how's your 401k looking these days? Hope you're not retiring this year. And we're talking about retirees with a career's worth of service under their belt, so I don't get where this "handout" stuff comes from.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:54 PM, 12/13/2008
    P Diddy- Not on yachts but there are some retirees that became millionaires. No problem with that unless the company ends up broke by paying their rivetors so much.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:53 PM, 12/13/2008
    Swedesboro: The main reason for the U.S. automakers crisis is because they've had a lazy business plan and shoddy car design for decades now. If we never had $4 gas, we wouldn't be talking about this. High gas prices just killed them, because they were stupid enough to overproduce SUV's and pick trucks. They've always outsold foreign makers in that segment, but they were too stupid/lazy to adapt their business model. They are way behind in hybrid technology. So the solution is to force them to alter their business plans for the long term, as well as make some wage concessions to pull through in the short term. But the idea that we ought to be revoking some old guy's retirement fund is cruel and stupid.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:45 PM, 12/13/2008
    Tom: You're a joke. Now the economic crisis is due to the greed of manufacturing retirees! What do you think they're doing, living on yachts?
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:35 PM, 12/13/2008
    p diddy- what do you suggest we do? GM, Chrysler, and Ford are flat broke and on the hook for billions in pension fund obligations that they cannot pay . What I think about unions aside WTF is the solution?
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:32 PM, 12/13/2008
    p diddy- It is called a 401k and personal responsibility. Sheesh! The world doesn't owe anybody a living. You gotta work for it.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:30 PM, 12/13/2008
    P-diddy- The workers would be better off because then they could make $ 2 more per hour like Toyota and they could use their union dues to pay for a portion of their employee sponsored healthcare. The union fat cats have been lining their pockets for years. All the dues money that unions send to political action committee's and candidates is sickening. Check our the facts at www.uionfacts.org
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:26 PM, 12/13/2008
    Swedesboro - If your against the retirement fund, what do you suggest be done with workers who have given decades of service to a company? I'm going to assume that your also against social security. So what are workers supposed to do when they hit retirement age? Not every job pays enough to retire on saved wages/salary alone. The BS floating around saying that auto assembly workers make $70 per hour simply isn't true.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:20 PM, 12/13/2008
    I don't see why Republicans want to pin this whole thing on the UAW. They already agreed to wage concessions, what more do you want? Let's say the GOP got their wish and the UAW ceased to exist. You'd have workers with less pay, less health benefits and no collective bargaining power. If the company does well, but workers aren't paid a decent wage and have neutered heath benefits, not to mention the lack of a collective voice, what's the point of "success"? Surely you don't prefer the Chinese labor environment? I thought the whole point of getting the economy humming again was so that people would earn more and be more secure in general.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:08 PM, 12/13/2008
    Liberal-Are you employed in a for profit company?
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:08 PM, 12/13/2008
    Liberal-Are you employed in a for profit company?
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 4:52 PM, 12/13/2008
    Liberal- The problems aren't the direct wages. Many non union jobs pay the same or even more. It's the pension fund obligations or the legacy costs. No amount of profit can ever pay the pensions of 700,000 retired workers. The pension are nothing more than pryamid schemes or ponzi schemes. Same thing as social security.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 4:51 PM, 12/13/2008
    Republicans always talk about bailing out "unions" as if the union did not consist of workers, past and present. The union as such will not get much out of a bailout. This is a good way to obfuscate the real issue, which is the misery and prospective misery imposed on millions of ordinary workers by the greed and incompetence of the leaders of the financial sector; today's money changers in the temple, as FDR said in his first inaugural. Few of these people will ever stand in line in a soup kitchen.
    liberal
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 4:36 PM, 12/13/2008
    djoko....in your post of 12/12 at 11:04AM, you indicated I had stated a half truth in that the UAW rejected immediate wage cuts since they had come to an agreement. However, like the illiterate you are, you showed you do not know the meaning of the word immediate, since the UAW wanted wage cuts in 2011, while the Corker plan was for them to be in 2009. I guess in your world 2011 is immediate, but for those based in reality it is not. You showed your utter partisanship and lack of reading comprehension with that post. Congrats. Diddy, same goes for you. Wage concessions in 2011 while the current bondholders agree to disregard two thirds of their owed debt just will not cut it. OF course Middlefinger in his press conference bashed the Repubs. Funny how all these years they never backed a Republican, now they want the Republicans to bail them out. This is a union bailout, not a corporate bailout. Do you know there are "workers" in that jobs bank collecting 85% of their pay while working at other jobs? Hilarious.
    tom - wilmington, de
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 3:15 PM, 12/13/2008
    Talvenda- Your candidate won the election ... Why still be griping about Sarah Palin?
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:56 PM, 12/13/2008
    SW MIKE: Palin herself said she had more experience than Obama, who she laughed at as being a community--LOL--organizer, and old man Biden. And remember, when a Pub says it that makes it so.
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:06 PM, 12/13/2008
    Liberal-here is another example of union nonsense. At the comcast building waterless urinals were installed. Thes urinals are part of what makes the comcast building a " Green " building. But the plumbers union demanded that the building also be fitted with the piping for traditional urinals. The sole purpose being it meant more union work. Do you see the silliness in any of this?
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 12:15 PM, 12/13/2008
    Republicans are so classy: "A Defense Department project, supposedly designed to support U.S. troops, was used instead to channel millions of dollars to personal friends and allies of its chief. The "America Supports You," or ASY, program was led in a "questionable and unregulated manner," according to a Department of Defense Inspector General report, obtained by Danger Room. At least $9.2 million was "inappropriately transferred" by the project's managers. Much of that money served only to further promote ASY, instead of assisting servicemembers."
    WB_in_OC
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:55 AM, 12/13/2008
    The laws governing business contracts are not natural laws like Darwin's. We write these laws. If they allow businesses to operate in such a way as to perpetually ratchet wages downward, it's on us. How have we allowed the investor class to talk us into this? How are workers smarter if they accept low wages rather than unionize? The whole problem is that over the last 30 years or so the whole country has come to accept the anti-union propaganda promulgated by big business, including the big media--both the Inquirer and the NYU Times have constantly attacked unions, because their business interest is in pushing compensation costs down. Even the liberals running the democratic party primarily identify with the investor class rather than workers, as you can see by looking at Obama's picks for advisors.
    liberal
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:36 AM, 12/13/2008
    Ever see the movie "Norma Rae" ? After the textile mills were unionized the industry failed and now textiles are imported. The epitomizes the work of the unions. Fortunately, a lot of old textile towns now make cars. The other American car manufacturers known as Volkswagen, Mercedes,Nissan,Hyundai, Toyota moved into the dying textile towns and saved them. Now the workers are much smarter and know it's idiodic to go union
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:49 AM, 12/13/2008
    There are 2215 pages in the UAW Contract. The words efficiency and competitiveness are not mentioned once. It's all work rules
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:21 AM, 12/13/2008
    lib, the unions had their time and I was raised in a union household, so I appreciate what they have contributed to the US. That being said, unions protect bad workers with the same vigor as they protect great employees. Also, they are kind of socialistic as they pay everyone the same based on seniority instead of how good someone is at their job! Finally, unions collect dues and instead of using the funds to help their union brothers they donate politically almost exclusively to democrats even if some of their union members are conservative. Maybe they should have two boxes on their dues forms and let their members choose who their dues will go to:)
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:16 AM, 12/13/2008
    22 POUNDS! This how much the UAW contract actually weights! I can't imagine the land mines a General Motors supervisor must have to navigate in order to comply with that contract. That's why it is much easier to look the other way while your rivetors are playing cards instead of riveting.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:37 AM, 12/13/2008
    liberal- my dislike for unions has nothing to with an affinity for the investor class. I can't stand them because they bankrupt company's. My life experience is from the trucking industry. Trust me when I tell you that if you are good truck driver you do not need the teamsters to make a buck. The over the road segment of trucking industry is becoming over run with non english speaking drivers. It's a $ 70,000 plus a year job and we can't find people who want to do it. This is the free market forces creating this, not the union. In the past 30 years the common denominator has been that the bankrupt company's are usually union leaving only two remaining unionized carriers to contribute to the Central States Pension fund. UPS had enough cash to buy their way out leaving 2 unionized companies to foot the pension obiligation for all the other unionized carriers that went out of business. It's a mess! There are a lot of good teamster drivers who get hurt by the bad contracts the leadership negotiated. While it might be great to have a huge pension is isn't so great for the drivers currently employed if the company goes bankrupt. I hope this explains it for you.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:18 AM, 12/13/2008
    MikeI- It really does not matter because the unions are dying a slow death anyway. Darwinian forces are slowly eliminating the unions. When Jimmy Carter deregulated the trucking Industry in 1980 the nails for the coffins were about to be put in. Top 50 carriers at that time were all union. Now there are only 2 union carriers of those left. Non union car builders like Toyota,Nissan, HOnda and Hyundai will put those dinnasaur union car companys out of business eventually. You're a liberal so you like Darwin, right? It's called survival of the fittest. Rare is the unionized company that can survive in the private sector. It's Darwins way. For more union facts check out www.unionfacts.org Don't let the fat cats at the union line their pockets with your employees hard earned wages.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:15 AM, 12/13/2008
    Maybe some of the conservative posters here can explain to me something I've never understood--the hostility toward unions on the part of people who have benefited or would benefit greatly from unionization. Swedesboro, you sound like a business manager who has had to deal with unions. If so, I understand your attitude, in fact I feel for you. But for most people who get most of their income from work, unions are the only realistic way to represent their interests in negotiating with employers. Most employers are large corporations who represent a collective group of investors, so employees have to be able to bargain collectively as well. In addition, I would point out that unions are essentially a conservative institution: they operate within the private sector, through the medium of the private contract, and they are family-friendly and patriotic. If conservatives hate unions, this proves that their ideas are not really driven by conservative values but instead by the pecuniary interests of the investor class.
    liberal
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 7:59 AM, 12/13/2008
    Talvenda- Obama was at the top of your ticket. Palin was our vp selection. Do you see the difference. Palin was a govenor for two years. Obama a Senator for two years. As experience goes I would say they were about equal
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:17 PM, 12/12/2008
    Mike: if anybody has trouble with the truth it would be you. OReilly getting beat by Olberman? When? In your dreams? http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/12/12/oreilly-vs-olbermann-through-thursday-december-11/9591
    ObamaHATER
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:44 PM, 12/12/2008
    DJ: The Conservs always have THEE magic-bullet answer, like Palin being more ready for The WH than Obama. How could the rest of us have been so blind and stupid? Now comes the great idea that just happens to be in a union-breaking memo, minus the great idea. .................... If things don't work, these guys will forever claim we should have done it their way, like the last year has been Obama's fault. Cue up Rush Limbaugh to bloviate on all things conservative.
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 9:42 PM, 12/12/2008
    Djoko, what is 'bon'? The state concessions are a factor in the foreign manufacturer costs for sure:) The UAW would not set a date certain to take wage cuts! That is why it didn't pass along with those 8 Dem Senators! The car industry needs a pre-packaged chapter 11 bankruptcy to bring their costs in line. That is what a bankruptcy court is for! Dump the pensions, cut the union contracts, cut the management contracts and renegotiate with the vendors. The airlines did it, why can't the car companies? For that matter, all these deadbeat companies should have went there as well! AIG, Citi, Fannie and Freddie to lead the list!
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:09 PM, 12/12/2008
    As more and more information comes out, it is becoming clear that the UAW was willing to make concessions, but the Senate Repub caucus was out to make a political point. Before you spout off, Tom and tjhaol, try and make sure you know what you're talking about, instead of just spouting rightwing talking points.
    Djoko Pritza
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 8:02 PM, 12/12/2008
    Union workers who produce could make $50 an hour while non-productive non-union workers should make $15 an hour, right swedey? Don't need a union to make a buck. No, but you'd need one to get that good pay. Otherwise, you'd make $4 an hour. Unions have brought everyone's pay scale up. Also, out of that $30 an hour Toyota workers make comes healthcare and other benefits, so that drops the wage consideraly when you have to purchase your own. And what about all that taxpater money going to the foreign car companies to build down south and the government subsidies given to those plants by the Japanese, Koreans, etc. Those companies get far more from governments, their and ours, than our industry gets. That's how they operate more cheaply. Take away those dollars and see how much more it would take for them to operate.
    mike l
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 7:54 PM, 12/12/2008
    cd, how does O'Reilly beat Matthews when they are not on at the sme time. Lately it is Keith Olberman who is whipping O'Reilly. Once again, try to get your facts straight, though I know that is foreign to you.
    mike l
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:53 PM, 12/12/2008
    NEPhilly: Question: In a former life, were you bon?
    Djoko Pritza
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:27 PM, 12/12/2008
    swedesboromike.....while another might say-You know you are a conservative if you're born on third base and believe you hit a triple.
    JimR
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 6:16 PM, 12/12/2008
    NEPhilly, I was impressed by your NPR post, indeed ... but, you didn't mention all the financial concessions made to foreign carmakers to get them to locate in specific states. Not to defend U.S. automakers, who have been in a denial bubble for years, but the inducements have to be factored in when you figure manufacturing costs per car.
    Djoko Pritza
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:58 PM, 12/12/2008
    You know you are a liberal if you hit a single but feel like you deserve a triple because the other team got one
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:55 PM, 12/12/2008
    Direct wages are actually higher at Toyota than GM. $ 30 an hour vs $ 28. Proving once again that you don't need a union to make a buck. In fact the workers are better off without a union. People who produce on the assembly line could be $ 50 per hour while an unproductive employee could make $ 15 per hour.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:35 PM, 12/12/2008
    The pension funds are what is killing the auto makers. You can't have 700,000 retired workers making full wages and benefits. There is not enough profit a company can make to possibly support that. In the Trucking Industry UPS paid there way out of the Central States Pension fund leaving only two unionized trucking company's to support the teamster pensions. ABF and YRC Worldwide. One is hanging on by a thread and asking for 10 percent wage cuts and it's demise will put the other out of business as well, because they would be the last surving union company supporting the pension fund.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:11 PM, 12/12/2008
    An example as to how silly unions are is PVC pipe in Philly. Just today, a bill was introduced to allow PVC pipe is all buildings. Currently, it is only allowed in residential buildings less than 3 stories. Otherwise, metal must be used. There is no reason for using metal anymore. It is more expensive and PVC is just as good. However, the unions are against it only because less people are needed to install PVC. UNIONS ARE DINOSAURS AND INHIBIT PROGRESS. Thet are greedy and only look out for their own interests, not the better good.
    CD75
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:09 PM, 12/12/2008
    Mathews running for the Senata? I am getting a strange feeling running up my leg! whoooooooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 5:05 PM, 12/12/2008
    Spector would be hard to defeat. Spector is a loyal democrat who happens to have an R next to his name. Nothing is more valuable to Democrats than a Republican who is liberal and will take any face time in front of a microphone to criticize the Republican party.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 4:48 PM, 12/12/2008
    lib, 'pursuant'? It sounds like lawyer talk to me:) In any case, I understand they have a contract, but if the company is going out of business/bankrupt the contract is going to mean nothing, right? The airlines did the same thing, went to bankruptcy court to lower their costs so they could compete! Why are the car companies any different? That is what bankruptcy court is for! I want the US car industry to be strong, but this bailout is only stalling a forgone conclusion if they can't lower their costs close to their competitors. Do you think a Car Czar is the anwser? Do you think Congress can run these business' more effectively? I have serious doubts about that! Also, on the car bailout vote in the Senate, 10 Repubs went along(against my wishes), so if all the Dems voted for it, it would have had 60 votes to pass! Guess what 8 Dem Senators voted against it, so don't let N.Pelosi and the UAW put the failure to pass it on the Sen. Repubs alone!
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 4:32 PM, 12/12/2008
    These "legacy costs"-pensions and health care-- are things that are provided by the government, not by car companies, in all other countries with an auto industry. That's why our auto industry can't compete. Note also, that these "legacy costs" actually constitute wages earned by workers in the past but deferred pursuant to a contractual promise between them and the employer. Conservatives seem to think that these are meaningless obligations that should be casually disregarded. So much for the morality of right-wingers, even in purely business matters.
    liberal
  • Comment removed.
  • Comment removed.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 3:48 PM, 12/12/2008
    still, I assumed they would sell all the cars they make, but it is a good point! The large retired work force getting pensions/health insurance is exactly the problem. (some retired at 50 y/o and they get full benefits forever at no cost) If they were funding the pensions all along they would be in worse financial shape, no? The foreign companies are making their products here, why would their supply chain be cheaper?
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 3:41 PM, 12/12/2008
    NEPhilly: two things. First, what are the health care costs per vehicle SOLD? As many have said, compare apples to apples. If Toyota sells a higher percentage of the cars they make, their per-car costs go down. Second, the foreign car manufacturers haven't had the large work forces here in the US for nearly as long, so they aren't saddled with the persion and benefits. Look at the number of current retirees for GM compared to Toyota. Maybe if they had been funding their pension funds as they were supposed to, they wouldn't be taking operating income to pay for retirees. Finally, Tom loves Cost of Goods Sold statistics. I have yet to see yet what % of car costs go to labor versus parts. Maybe the foreign companies have cheaper, more efficient supply chains.
    still_independent
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 3:16 PM, 12/12/2008
    Phrostty, their pensions will be dumped on the govt(Pension board) as usual, but at least going forward their costs will be in line with their competitors! Then they can compete in the future, without a Car Czar or the govt strings attached to a bailout that has no chance of working! Your right on the NSA, they have that secrecy thing down, as they should, ha, ha, ha:)
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 3:12 PM, 12/12/2008
    p, i'm not going to defend GM's product line, if it was great/better they would not be in this position, right? But, you have to admit, their legacy costs are what is killing them! You don't get a $50 billion difference in profit/loss by just having a slightly inferior product, you get their by having a systemic problem! That is why I posted the NPR article, from 2005, as it illustrates the cost differences perfectly:)
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 3:06 PM, 12/12/2008
    P-diddy , you're on target. The Prius flies off of the lot and the Chevy lots are full of unsold Yukons. Timing is everything in that business and the retooling time is long. When gas hit $4/gallon, the American love of things huge fell quickly. The other guys bet heavily and won big.
    JimR
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 3:04 PM, 12/12/2008
    I infer that your suggestion for a large company to declare bankruptcy to avoid paying pension obligations is advocating breaking a fiscal promise. I'm not saying you did support investors and executives profit. I said it wouldn't surprise me if right-wingers would be OK with a broken promise to line fat-cats pockets. (Kind of like a candidate changing his mind about public financing if it's no longer in his best interest.) Can you get more efficient than keeping your budget a secret if you're charged with maintaining secrecy?? I presume you're correct about the legs of a Matthews for Senate vs. Matthews for Staunch Journalist storyline. I expected more of the "zzzzz" posts some folk are in the habit of making.
    Phrossty
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:58 PM, 12/12/2008
    NePhilly: GM has the Chevy Cobalt and the Pontiac G5. Honda has the hugely popular and reliable Civic (which also comes in the popular hybrid version), and Toyota has the Matrix, the hybrid Prius and the Corolla. No wonder GM is hurting. They're getting killed in the compact market.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:51 PM, 12/12/2008
    Phrossty, thanks for your support on the inefficient govt storyline:) I said all the companies should have been allowed to go bankrupt, from AIG to Citigroup to Fannie to Freddie! Where did I advocate breaking a financial promise or letting investors/executives profit from this mess? I said if you had the credit to buy those things(houses, cars) you probably weren't a deadbeat and would pay them back! (unless of course the govt makes business's lend you money, that you don't have a history of paying back) Also, we don't even know the budget for the NSA, so how can we tell if they are efficient and your right it did go off topic, but a Matthews for Senate story only has so much juice, right?
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:42 PM, 12/12/2008
    djoko...like Tom said, the union rejected wage cuts. Corker was on the morning shows and said the problem was that the union would not give a date as to when to effect the cuts, and they would not agree to re-open the current contract for renogiation. At least Tom shows from where he gets his facts...you just insinuate and offer no sources.
    tjhaol
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:42 PM, 12/12/2008
    Well, I was wrong. A right-wing poster advocated irresponsible, personal financial management (as long as I don't feel guilty about it). NE Philly - I usually agree with your major debate point "show me the efficient, well-run, non-corrupt gov't agency/program - besides the military - and I'll support it." I think government intrusion is bad, but government oversight is a necessary evil. I'm very surprised (so I'm not *exactly* wrong) that a conservative advocates breaking a promise, particularly a fiscal one. I guess I shouldn't be if the end result is that wealthy investors and executives profit while the workers get shafted. ****** 1) How about the NSA? or is that quasi-military? and, 2) Boy did this thread go off-topic!!
    Phrossty
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:41 PM, 12/12/2008
    p, I know what you were saying, I was just playing around with you. Chrysler is another story from GM. Even Daimler couldn't turn them around! GM's cars are the equivilent to Toyota in quality, they just lose money on every one produced becuase of their legacy costs(pensions and medical), period!
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:37 PM, 12/12/2008
    NEPhilly, I was referring to the design of Dodge's recent cars and how they haven't adequately adapted to the car market. In varying degrees this is a problem with the U.S. automakers as a whole. If your point is that this economy doesn't suck as badly as it did in 1979....um, okay.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:37 PM, 12/12/2008
    Tal, I want to give these companies a fighting chance to survive and at their per car production costs, they can not, no matter how much $$$ you and I lend them! It is throwing good $$$ after bad. If GM loses over $2,000 per car they make how can we justify lending them $$$! If you went to a bank with that business plan they would laugh you out of the building! A prepackaged Bankruptcy would not cost anyone their jobs, they would still be making a good living just at a rate that the companies could make $$$ too. I don't see the problem with that and that is how the legacy airlines went back to being able to compete with Southwest, why can't the car companies do the same thing?
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:31 PM, 12/12/2008
    p, if it was 1979 the misery index (inflation plus unemployment) would be 20%, not 11% and interest rates would be 17% not 7%!
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:29 PM, 12/12/2008
    STOP The Big 3 = win-win for The Pubs. ................ If they're right, they can brag about how they are so right. ................. If things go really wrong, a Dem majority & Obama prove McCain should be president.
    Talvenada
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:23 PM, 12/12/2008
    NEPhilly: You're not following. If I make 30 widgets and sell 10, but somebody else makes 15 widgets and sells 9, the other guy is going to come out with a higher profit margin. And those numbers only include North America. Globally, Toyota is selling slightly more total cars than GM.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:19 PM, 12/12/2008
    NEPhilly: Have you checked out Dodge's line of vehicles lately? You'd swear we are living in 1979.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:15 PM, 12/12/2008
    p, I said the article was from 2005, but the basic numbers are the same. GM and Toyota made/sold the same amount of cars last year, but GM lost $38 billion and Toyota made $14 Billion and the legacy costs are the reason why. The article is not biased as it is from NPR not the Heritage Foundation:) Per car GM loses over $2,000 and Toyota make over $1,000, so it doesn't matter how many they make or sell they still lose per car! Phrossty, if you have the credit to buy those things you probably aren't a deadbeat and will pay them back, unless the govt makes someone give you credit to buy them, then you won't:) But if you chose to do it, you could and no one could stop you other than your own conscience:)
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:13 PM, 12/12/2008
    CD75: Because it's a contract they negotiated with the company, number one. Second, U.S. automakers aren't failing because of assembly workers' pay and benefits. Besides, who's complaining about a worker who has given decades of service to a company? These people deserve pensions. Gimme a f-ing break! The U.S. automakers have a lazy business plan and shoddy design. My family used to own a Chrysler van, a Gran Torino and a Buick at different times. Never again. Those cars, particularly the Chrysler, were junk. We haven't bought an American car since. But I don't blame assembly workers for the problem. Hell, they didn't design the cars.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:07 PM, 12/12/2008
    NE Philly - are you telling me I should buy a bunch of Toyotas, Sony's, Chinese toys, Dell Computers and a house or two and then not pay for them??
    Phrossty
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:04 PM, 12/12/2008
    Phossty, that is what bankruptcy is for! People can do it too, if you choose to. The pensions would get put on the govt, but at least the company would become profitable in the near future! Also, I don't think it is okay to bail out any of these companies. Why is it okay to let Lehman go out of business, but not AIG or Citigroup? I say, if they made bad business decisions let them go into bankrupt!
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:03 PM, 12/12/2008
    NEPhilly: That NPR link you provided is from 2005. Since then, Toyota has become the world's biggest seller. And you don't even represent the article you posted correctly. In 2005, GM produced three times as many cars as Toyota in North America, so of course GM will turn less profit for each car sold. This means that there are unsold cars sitting in lots. Since 2005, Toyota has grown twice as fast as GM, and has eaten into GM's market share big time. A big reason is GM's business model. They neglected the compact car market and hybrid technology R&D. The Japanese makers as a result are better positioned going forward.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 2:01 PM, 12/12/2008
    What were the concessions asked for from the financial industry for their bailouts?
    USA#1
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 1:57 PM, 12/12/2008
    GM: White collar: 36,000 Production: 106,000. Retirees: 460,000 Toyota: White collar: 17,000 Production: 21,000 Retirees: 1,600 Hmmm... so (in 2005) 76.4% of the GM workforce was retirees but only 4% for Toyota. I see lots of "free market," right-leaners advocating bankruptcy to rid GM of its obligation. That seems patently unfair to me. If I ran up a credit card or six and declared bankruptcy just to get out of paying my debt (obligation), I can't imagine a single conservative supporting my choices. How come it's OK to bail out the wealthy bankers without preconditions, but if we want to bail out a blue collar company, then the workers have to give something back? Could it be the bankers hold the purse strings and, therefore, control the perverted minds of the men who make our laws??
    Phrossty
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 1:50 PM, 12/12/2008
    liberal and p-idddy: explain in your great wisdom why the taxpayer should subsidize excessive benefits of the greedy UAW?
    CD75
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 1:42 PM, 12/12/2008
    p, the cars the US makers have are fine and well made by their union workforce! You may have been right a few years ago, but not now. The problem is, as of 2005 GM lost $2,331 per car made while Toyota made $1,488 per car. Health care costs per car made, GM $1,525, Toyota $201! Average labor cost per hourly worker, GM $73.73, Toyta $48! That is the problem and nothing but a bankruptcy court can change those awful numbers!
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 1:41 PM, 12/12/2008
    The UAW has agreed to wage concessions. The GOP is grandstanding. Now the GOP wants them to concede their health benefits. WTF? What's the point of rescuing the economy if we have to give up our wages and health benefits to save it? That's why people work in the first place. I have a better idea. Let's put our children to work. We could use their small hands. Plus, they won't complain about not having health benefits, and they'll be grateful if we pay them $7 an hour. These spoiled brats don't need school, they need to get out there and earn - then we'll clobber China!
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 1:33 PM, 12/12/2008
    American car companies are in trouble mainly because their cars are poorly designed in comparison to Japanese models. Also, U.S. car makers have neglected the compact car market. Yes, unionized workers are paid more than non-unionized manufacturing workers on the whole, but this doesn't begin to address the reason why they have not been able to compete with Honda and Toyota. American car makers continually outsell Japanese car makers in the pickup truck segment, but they get killed in the more popular compact car segment. It's their lazy business model and clunky design; some people would have you believe that it's because the shift workers are greedy. The GOP is just looking for an opportunity to break another union instead of addressing the real issue.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 1:31 PM, 12/12/2008
    Liberal: I completely agree with your point about pensions being the culprit of the big 3's demise. That is proven with Toyota's sales being equal of GM's last year and Toyota made $17 billion while GM ended in the red. That's why if the auto companies are allowed to file bankruptcy, it will relieve them of those expenses. We can't subsidize their poor decisions every year.
    ObamaHATER
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 1:21 PM, 12/12/2008
    liberal: easy answer. American Unions are lazy, corrupt, dumb and thuggish.
    CD75
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 12:47 PM, 12/12/2008
    Djoko, William Kristol and his ilk are the architect's of McCain's defeat! He can join Colin Powell and the rest of the RINO's and join the Dem Party if that's how they feel. The federal (state and local govts too for that matter) govt is too big, too expensive, too inefficient and too full of corruption and the more $$$ it gets the more corrupt it will be! The GOP needs to offer a viable alternative to big govt and provide a choice. Also, someone please stop GWB from himself in this bailout fiasco:) and did you notice I posted an article from NPR, aren't you proud of me & better yet did you read it?
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 12:44 PM, 12/12/2008
    Yes, McCain WAS a Rino but he traded in his moderate (maverick) status and moved to the far right in his attempt to get elected. The 2000 version of McCain was a far better choice. If the republicans continue to put up far right candidates they deserve to lose. As for Matthews, If he is a moderate, what difference will there be from Specter? Specter has the experience so why make a change? Anyone would be better than Rick Santorum however (another example of a failed neocon campaign).
    James TL
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 12:13 PM, 12/12/2008
    I think that point is very insightful Diddy.
    HandNik
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 12:11 PM, 12/12/2008
    NEPhilly, even Wm Kristol in a recent col said the "small-gov" mantra had lost its relevancy. We on the left are just trying to help you guys find your way.
    Djoko Pritza
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:59 AM, 12/12/2008
    The car companies need to go into a pre-packaged bankruptcy to bring their costs in-line with their foreign competitors! Explain how Toyota and GM can make the same amount of cars, yet Toyota makes $14 Billion profit and GM lose over $38 Billion? Because their costs are lower per car made! Checkout this link and see how, although the link is for 2005, nothing has changed or has gotten worse since then, http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:57 AM, 12/12/2008
    "One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." Frank Zappa quote (http://thinkexist.com/quotes/frank_zappa/2.html)
    Phrossty
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:48 AM, 12/12/2008
    Polman's argument that Matthews failed to mention Phila in his list of crooked cities, implicitly to avoid insulting possible Phila voters, is a stretch. We Philly voters are all too well aware of how our city government works, and have never been incensed by having some outsider comment on it, starting with Lincoln Steffens back in about 1905. What really surprises us here is the fact that there are places in this country that are considerably more crooked.
    liberal
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:44 AM, 12/12/2008
    You wouldn't know it from listening to congressional Republicans, but there is a health care crisis in this country. So how do they want to solve our economic crisis? By taking health insurance away from manufacturing workers. The Democrats ought to bury them for suggesting this.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:41 AM, 12/12/2008
    I give Matthews props for eviscerating Michelle Malkin on his show (watch the clip on Youtube). But I don't want a pundit in the Senate.
    p-diddy
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:39 AM, 12/12/2008
    If GM's main problem is high union wages, how is it that GM can make cars profitably in Germany, where unions are far more pervasive and powerful than in the US? Union-bashing is just an excuse that every failing company trots out on cue. Pay no attention to it. American manufacturers' cost problems come from not funding workers' pensions when they were earned in earlier times when the auto workforce was bigger (where did all that money go?) and in blocking universal health care, thus saddling themselves with high health costs that none of their world competitors face.
    liberal
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:37 AM, 12/12/2008
    Dorko: You are the misleader, not Tom. The GOP asked the UAW for cuts in 2009. The UAW wanted in like 2011. What good are cuts in 2011 if you cant make payroll in 2009? You need to go to business school (or just perhaps first grade).
    CD75
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:30 AM, 12/12/2008
    Djoko, McCain was a RINO and so was Chris Shays in NY and they both lost as did most moderate Repubs! What's up with that? I say thanks, but no thanks to your's and Colin Powell's advice as to what is wrong with the Repub. Party. The GOP needs to offer a true difference from the Dems to be effective, smaller govt., lower taxes, strong national defense and energy independence are the keys to victory P.O.(post Obama) :)
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:28 AM, 12/12/2008
    Dorko: Blah, blah, gimme a handout because i am a union dinosaur, blah, blah. Question: if $10M gets GM thru Feb. 28, 2009, then what? Does GM becone somehow profitable or self-sustainable on March 1, 2009? Explain that one Dorko (or anybody).
    CD75
  • Comment removed.
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:24 AM, 12/12/2008
    Being called a RINO is one of the nicest things you can say about a member of the Repub Party. The party needs more of that breed if it hopes to win again.
    Djoko Pritza
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:18 AM, 12/12/2008
    I do not have 'tingles' thinking of NE Philly boy Matthews in that Senate seat, but RINO Arlen is just as bad! Matthews should resign his hosting duties so there is no conflict of interest. Although, with Olbermann around you can't take MSNBC seriously, anyway. Also, if no one watches his show, does it make a sound? :)
    NEPhilly
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:17 AM, 12/12/2008
    Wow! A media type with an agenda. I though I've heard it all.
    jmc
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:16 AM, 12/12/2008
    Posted by Djoko Pritza: "Posters have learned by now that ol’ Tom plays fast and loose with the facts." Yes, it's been stated here many times in many ways. He's been proven to be a master at that Oh-So-Republican trait. Also: Matthews NEVER!
    NipTip
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 11:04 AM, 12/12/2008
    Before Matthews, there was Half-truth Tom of Wilm; here is what Tom said this morning, “As for the auto bailout, the UAW rejected immediate wage cuts, so the Corker alternative was rejected and the Senate voted the bailout down.” Turns out the UAW and Corker DID come to an agreement on wage cuts, but the Senate Repub caucus turned it down. Most of those Senate Repubs are protecting the FOREIGN auto companies in their own states. Posters have learned by now that ol’ Tom plays fast and loose with the facts.
    Djoko Pritza
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:57 AM, 12/12/2008
    Hm......I am not really going out on the line here....but I predict no support coming from Bill and Hillary.
    robo
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:52 AM, 12/12/2008
    One of the most vile political weasels of them all is the carpetbagger. He does not live here anymore, so don't come back. His man-love for Obama is also creepy. His show gets crushed by O'Reilly. He has no chance. He wouldn't even survive the primary. He is also an exampel of a "journalist" he becomes so in love with himself that he thinks he should be a politician. What a loser.
    CD75
  • 0 like this / 0 don't   •   Posted 10:50 AM, 12/12/2008
    Ugh. Matthews is incompetent as a political analyst, regardless of his TV host charisma and I feel he will be an awful politician. Specter hasn't harmed PA so much, but I certainly would like to see new blood in that seat, especially with the new era of Obama.
    NipTip


1
About this blog

Cited by the Columbia Journalism Review as one of the nation's top political reporters, and lauded by the ABC News political website as "one of the finest political journalists of his generation," Dick Polman is a national political columnist at the Philadelphia Inquirer. He is on the full-time faculty at the University of Pennsylvania, as "writer in residence." Dick has been a frequent guest on C-Span, MSNBC, CNN, NPR and the BBC. He covered the 1992, 1996, 2000, and 2004 presidential campaigns.

ARCHIVES

All commentaries posted before April 18, 2008, can be accessed at www.dickpolman.blogspot.com.

Dick Polman Inquirer National Political Columnist