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Thursday, September 4, 2008
Harry says, "Say what?"




Democrats would be foolish to underestimate Sarah Palin - not because her assertions are substantive (on the contrary, last night she uncorked a long string of fact-challenged howlers), but because of her effectively assertive style.

And style trumps substance, particularly on television. What viewers hear is not nearly as important as what they see and how what they see makes them feel. And I'll wager that a large share of the viewers last night felt good vibes for a feisty "everywoman" who invoked the small-town verities so often ("I had the privilege of living most of my life in a small town") that any second I expected her to morph into John Mellencamp. We can all debate whether the best criteria for a vice president is whether the candidate is as average as you or I, but, for now, suffice it to say that Palin easily passes the stagecraft test. And Americans generally love it when a new star takes the stage.

This new star delivered her scripted lines with great verve, even when the lines didn't make a lick of sense. Not that this matters, of course, but let's do a quick review anyway, for the edification of the reality-based community:

1. While reviewing John McCain's miracle rise after his summer '07 plummet, she scoffed at how "the pollsters and pundits" wrote him off. That phrase is code for "the liberal media elite" (a favorite whipping boy at this convention), but the fact is that virtually all commentators, at all ends of the political spectrum, wrote off McCain a year ago when his original campaign team imploded. Indeed, the reaction among conservatives was almost gleeful; their attitude was "good riddance," because they never liked McCain anyway. For instance, conservative columnist Michelle Malkin launched a "McCain campaign death watch," and asked, "So, what will the exact expiration date of the McCain '08 campaign be?"

2. In Palin's alternative reality, the media elite was rebuked by the voters who flocked to McCain during the primaries; as she put it, "the voters knew better." The facts are far more interesting. McCain was saved in the primaries by independents, moderates, and crossover Democrats who were permitted to vote in open contests. In the primaries that mattered most, the exit polls showed that McCain was consistently spurned by conservative Republican voters...the ideological soulmates of the GOP delegates who were cheering Palin in the hall.

3. Palin bragged about her gubernatorial tenure in Alaska by declaring, "Our state budget is under control. We have a surplus." Moreover, she "championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress." Actually, it's not so hard to get the budget under control in an economy that's based so heavily on oil; indeed, Alaska is enjoying a boom thanks in part to the same energy price rise that is widely condemned elsewhere in America. And as for her assailing of earmark spending, she omitted the fact that she has long reaped the fruits of congressional earmark spending, feeding at the federal trough ever since she served as a small-town mayor (the mayoral tab: $27 million; her requested gubernatorial tab: $750 million). This is how the game is played in Alaska, a state long dominated by the GOP, where roughly one-third of the economy hinges on federal spending (thereby contradicting all the GOP convention talk about "cutting the size of government.")

4. Palin last night falsely claimed - as she did in her first appearance last Friday - that she told Congress, "Thanks, but no thanks" when Congress earmarked federal money for the Alaska bridge to nowhere. As I mentioned here the other day, she actually was for the bridge before she was against it. She didn't cancel the project until it became clear that the embarrassed lawmakers in Washington were pulling back the money and that Palin would thus be forced to foot the bill out of the state treasury. But Palin may yet succeed with convincing people that her lie is the truth, because she tells it with so much moxie.

5. She twice asserted that "victory in Iraq is finally in sight." Aside from the fact that Palin didn't bother to define what she meant by "victory," had you heard this news anywhere else? I certainly hadn't. Did Gen. David Petraeus get that memo?

6. She compared herself to Harry Truman, because he too had some small-town roots. The big problem with that analogy is that Truman, when picked by FDR to join the ticket in 1944, had already served in Washington as a U.S senator for 10 years; he had also chaired a special Senate committee on the war. He exposed military waste and corruption, and saved the federal treasury $15 billion.

7. She declared that "I'm not a member of the permanent political establishment...the Washington elite." It's a nice populist line, akin to Jimmy Stewart's aw-shucks appeal in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, but the problem is that, for most of the past eight years, the Washington political establishment has been dominated by the GOP - starting with the "K Street Project," by which corporate lobbyists wrote the bills for, and traded favors with, the Republican congressional majority. And sometimes the symbiotic relationship was criminal; witness the jailed Jack Abramoff. Yet the delegates cheered Palin for bashing the political establishment, which means that either they were mocking their own party (nah), or practicing willful amnesia.

8. In another swipe at the so-called liberal media, she declared that "Here's a little news flash for all those reporters and commentators: I'm not going to Washington to serve their good opinion." The delegates predictaby cheered the common enemy. The reality, however, is that Palin's credentials have been questioned by all kinds of commentators, including ex-Reagan speechwriter Peggy Noonan (who unwittingly said on an open microphone yesterday that Palin's ascent is "political bullshit"), and ex-McCain advisor/GOP strategist Mike Murphy, who called the choice "cynical" on the same open mic. But perhaps the most dismissive commentary I've heard is this: "Palin's experience in government makes Barack Obama look like George C. Marshall." That line comes to us courtesy of conservative David Frum - the ex-Bush speechwriter who helped craft the phrase about the Axis of Evil.

(In fairness to Palin, the howler of the night was uttered by Mike Huckabee, who wowed the crowd with this bit of lunatic arithmetic: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States." Well, let's see here....Biden got 75,165 votes in the primaries. Palin got 616 votes in her first mayoral race, and 909 in her second, for a grand total of 1,525. I just checked my calculator, and 75,165 is a larger number than 1,525. I trust that even though Palin, like Huckabee, would like to see creationism taught in the public schools, surely she would endorse the continued teaching of math skills, even if her surrogates are exposed as fabulists.)

It also might have been interesting last night to hear Palin discuss the national security credentials that warrant placing her a heatbeat away from power in the 9/11 era; perhaps she could have repeated McCain's line about how she is qualified because "Alaska is right next to Russia."

But I doubt that much of this matters. Substance can't compete with style and symbolism. In particular, as communications expert (and occasional Democratic advisor) George Lakoff put it the other day, Republicans are traditionally "strong on the symbolic dimension of politics."

A perky, rootin'-tootin' hockey mom who drives herself to work...that's iconic small-town stuff, an appealing cultural metaphor for those everyday Americans who think that all Washington needs is a dose of everyday gumption. It's an illusion, of course, because it masks the reality of the Washington Republican elite, and the manner in which that elite has long operated, but election campaigns have long turned on the mastery of illusion. That's the abiding genius of the GOP. They've made a hash of governing since Bush came to town, but they sure can market.




Posted by Dick Polman @ 10:45 AM  Permalink | 192 comments
Comments   
Posted 10:51 AM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
Obama proves every day that style and symbolism trump substance. I guess that is why the author hates her so much.
Posted 10:57 AM, 09/04/2008
SteveMG
She had admitted she knows little about the war, now she boldly proclaims that victory is just around the corner.
Posted 11:03 AM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
Polman....just to correct a misstatement. FDR did not piok Truman. His selection was the result of a deal worked out by the party chairman. Truman was about the 8th choice of FDR, who had never even met Truman personally before putting him on the ticket.
Posted 11:04 AM, 09/04/2008
ThinkTwice
Thank you Mr. Pole. I went to bed last night with the stifling feeling that I was the only one in America that realized how horrible that speech was last night. It is up to people like you to end America’s infatuation with mediocrity, and remind them that president is not about who you would like to have a beer with or who reminds you of your sister. That speech had zero substance, and it looked only to further divide the nation between red and blue states. That lady scares me, but not for the reasons she thinks. I don’t like fascism, and I don’t want it in America, even it would be fun to have a beer with.
Posted 11:06 AM, 09/04/2008
AHiredGun
Palin has had her manufactured day in the sun. Let's see how she stands up to the all the factual issues that are coming to light about her character and lack of qualifications, not to mention the grilling she will get from the press and in the debates. The gloves are off lady. Let's see if you can take it as well as you dish it out.
Posted 11:07 AM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
Again, a correction. Republicans controlled Congress for only 4 of Bush's 8 years. The first two years he had a Dem controlled Senate, and for the past two years a full Dem Congress. So, again, how have Repubs ruined Washington? What exactly has the Dem Congress accomplished over the past two years....anything? Who has the lower approval rating?
Posted 11:11 AM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
Yeah Tom. And I am still waiting for someone to tell me one single thing Obama has ever accomplished. It can't be done.
Posted 11:13 AM, 09/04/2008
yoda
After 8 years of good ole boy Bush, independent voters may be a bit wary of electing more reg'lar folks to high office...
Posted 11:15 AM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
For crying out loud...are you serious with number 8? First, she did not single out anyone in the media, but was talking to everyone in the media...conservative and liberal alike. It seems to me you are just a bit too defensive. Perhaps with all the egg on your face about Palin, you are actually afraid she might cause the messiah not to rise. Nothing she said was factually inaccurate unless you put spin on it. She said the voters saved McCain, and they did. The fact the Conservative voters did not save him is your spin, not hers. The fact she did not say "all the media" is your spin, not hers. And how condescending to refer to the Republican elite in Washington as if no Democrat operates in that city. The Dem VP candidate's son is a lobbyist in that city. Is he in the Republican elite? You keep bringing up Rove as if people should be afraid, yet he is not part of any campaign. That is fear mongering. ANd yes, the K Street Project was Republican, but how does that differ from MoveOn (Obama could not even criticize their Betray Us ad) or any Democrat interest group (can you say unions)? Come on, stop living in a shell. As for victory in Iraq, perhaps you should read Petraeus' reports. Was it even reported on the philly.com site that Anbar has been turned over? Would you define that as victory or defeat? Sorry there won't be a treaty signing on the USS Missouri, but turning over 11 of 18 provinces to Iraqi control (to security forces the left always said were ill prepared and not ready) to me constitutes moving toward victory.
Posted 11:16 AM, 09/04/2008
stevejones
am i missing something here? Obama was in the senate 143 days before he decided to run..The media absolutely is protecting Obama...and never once finds a flaw or cricism. Tax cuts for people who dont really pay taxes is just populist drivel too..lets face it the inquirer and pollman especially just mouth democratic talking points.
Posted 11:24 AM, 09/04/2008
eichen18
can u break down an obama speech like this? be fair that is your job. How about some third party coverage? I think Bob Barr is saying some really interesting things. I would like to hear your thoughts. Also can we get something about Ron Puals republic revolution? That's the real CHANGE.
Posted 11:25 AM, 09/04/2008
noel711
Tom, the reason the Democratic congress can't accomplish anything is because Herr Bush vetoes anything that doesn't come from the repblicans. It's time that bashing congress stop; they can't override the prez. Don't blame the dems if the partisan wall is so high; Palin bemoaned partisan WAshington, but who is running the show there? Big deal: Palin drives herself to work: so do I and millions of other working moms. And millions of us work with organizations with many more people in them than Wasilla AK, and with budgets bigger than Wasilla... but no one begs us to run for vice-president. And none of us leave our hometowns in debt... Big deal: Palin had 'responsibilities:' so do I and millions of other working moms. But those responsibilities don't qualify us for the office of president. I worked had to get an education so I could get a good job, and succeed. Nothing was handed to me, or millions of other working moms who get up every morning, and do our due diligence for our families. But now education is seen as 'elitist,' and doing community service (ie, 'community organizers') doesn't involve responsibilities? I am offended by McCain's choice of this 'poser,' and I was angered by her hysterical, sarcastic speech. Anyone can read a speech off a teleprompter. But I do not trust her; I wanted to give her a chance, I wanted to see thru the media hype. But no way now. I want a president that is smarter than I am; I want a president that inspires my kids to be better than they are; I want a president who shows dignity, intelligence and honor to the world. I want a president who is better than the average bear. I don't care if it is a man or woman, black or white, gay or straight. I don't care where this person came from, but what to know where he/she is leading us. I want someone with character and humility, who shows respect for others, even for his opponants.
Posted 11:29 AM, 09/04/2008
djoseph
I am an undecided, self-described moderate who was holding out hope for Palin, but no longer. Palin is a fake. To sieze power, she will throw her pregnant teenage daughter into the media spotlight, use her 4 month old baby as a prop, lie about past stances on pork barrel projects, and, instead of telling us anything about policy ideas, use sarcasm to belittle her opponents. The GOP's hypocrisy was on full display last night: being a Senator gives you "zero" relevant experience, unless of course you happen to be Sen. McCain. Making powerful speeches is just empty rhetoric, unless of course you are Sarah Palin. Teenage pregnancy is the scourge of the nation, unless of course you can be used by your mom to run for the vice presidency, marriage and "family values" should be defended at all costs, unless you are Sen. McCain who divorced his disabled wife to marry his millionaire mistress or unless you are twice-divorced and pro-choice and pro-gay rights GOP candidate Gulliani who used tax payer-funded body gaurds to drive him to his mistress' house on Long Island, while his wife was back in the Mayor's mansion. Being a "coastal elite" is akin to being a child molester, unless of course you are Mitt Romney, one of the richest men in the country and who hails from Massachussetts (a liberal, coastal state). The GOP is "pro-life" unless of course those lives are American soldiers or Iraqi women and children dying everyday. The GOP is the party of "Christian values" except when you are running a 3-day infomercial that exudes anything but love of neighbor. Total hypocrisy.
Posted 11:30 AM, 09/04/2008
bernadette
just heard a great quote (sorry don't know the original source): "Mrs. Palin should remember that Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a Governor". In any event, there were so many lies in her speech, no mention of the McCain/Palin stand on the issues (since they are just like the Bush/Cheney stands) - America - don't be fooled again like we were in 2004.
Posted 11:33 AM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
Still waiting for a single accomplishment of the thin man.
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Posted 11:38 AM, 09/04/2008
Djoko Pritza
Hey, Jwad, I'm still waiting for you to (truthfully) tell me why you want to know. It can't be that hard.
Posted 11:38 AM, 09/04/2008
JeffA
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html For those of you who weren't familiar with the charges against Obama in favor of infanticide, as I wasn't, should go hear for a run-down.
Posted 11:40 AM, 09/04/2008
CleanupPhilly
Polman's number one item points out why this ticket is in fact stronger than the coalition the Dems have fashioned -- in spite of bitter in-fighting, it seems to the two wings within the GOP have fashioned a working partnership in McCain/Palin. Now contrast that with Hillary/Obama, which is how the ticket would have run best if the Democratic convention didn't just rely on delegates, but used odd info like who won states that a presidential success needs to carry.
Posted 11:44 AM, 09/04/2008
Wally
In the long run, it still comes down to the bottom line: McCain and his terrible choice for VP will basically continue the complete failures (complete failures in every area) of the Bush years... His poor judgement / choice of Palin is a sign of more poor choices to come. But common sense doesnt always prevail - be ready for another stolen election...like the past two.
Posted 11:44 AM, 09/04/2008
gee1971
So 4years, 6 years 8 years, I don't know what it was nor do I care. 1 year of holding the executive office and the Congress and in reality the majority of the Supreme Court should have been sufficient to accomplish something other than padding your pockets. The past 8 years of Republican leadership have been nothing short of a cash grab. And the overall tone of this entire party that it isn't their actions that have warranted criticism, but just the prejudiced conclusions of the biased media is embarrassing. I've had enough of playing the role of the victim, they need to take some responsibility for their actions. You think the media is too harsh, prove it. Have a period where the successes outweight the failures.
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Posted 11:47 AM, 09/04/2008
Djoko Pritza
Djoseph reminds me: One of the most disturbing sights last night (besides Rudy) was that poor Down syndrome baby being used as a prop. No way should an infant be in that decibel-challenging convention hall near midnight. That was brutal, akin to child abuse. Has the family no shame?
Posted 11:47 AM, 09/04/2008
frankg962
Tom, how many times do the Dems in general and Obama have to come out and denounce an ad by Move On? Has McCain said anything about the Corsi book? If he has I haven't heard about it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Posted 11:48 AM, 09/04/2008
Bud Fox
news flash polman, you ARE the liberal media elite. in true elitist fashion, you point out she had speech writers- but why doesn't the media talk about that when it comes to Obama? it is a beautiful thing, watching the liberal media elite claw at these scraps (the best you can do is go after some idiot from fox news?) because they know Palin called their boy out on so many things last night. she has more experience, more results, less insider-washington history, and she's not afraid to put it out there. make the argument Polman- what, exactly, has Obama ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHED? I hear crickets.
Posted 11:50 AM, 09/04/2008
JonKap
Great article. The right wing nuts here must not have read Obama's detailed thesis on addressing the energy situation. Or his detailed proposals for restoring the ground up economics that work to empower all Americans. McCain has no plan except for more of Bush's failed policies. Sarah ran a town of 6000 in remote Alaska, then the oil and gas lobby ushered her into the governor's job to be their puppet. But oh well, she has an R after her name.
Posted 11:50 AM, 09/04/2008
CleanupPhilly
I'm surprised by the lack of objectivity of the piece above, given that the Dems have gone with New Liberal Lite. It's about as fluffy as Cool Whip. Palin does bring executive experience to the office. Obama is a cool puffy dessert. In the end my opinion or any journalist's matters little. Ask yourself if the "T" or the western part of PA is going to want red meat or mousse for breakfast? The Dems erred in not running Biden at the top of the ticket, with someone like an Obama or similar in the second slot. The roles are not interchangeable.
Posted 11:54 AM, 09/04/2008
ModerateMarge
And whom do you mean by the thin man ??? McCain's record in the Senate especially in the last almost 8 years has been as a virtual rubberstamp of GW Bush. I say LET him run on that record. We DO NOT want another 4 years continuing the failed Bush policies.
Posted 11:54 AM, 09/04/2008
ThinkTwice
Well, we could start with him being the first African American major presidential candidate...How many times have you done that, Jwad56?
Posted 11:55 AM, 09/04/2008
5forfighting
Wow..I'll be honest..I didn't need to read past the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph to see how desperate you Libs are... And style trumps substance, particularly on television That's all Barry O has..Seriously, some great speeches that make people's leg tingle, and two books..And he's not even a heartbeat away, he's your candidate..
Posted 11:57 AM, 09/04/2008
ThinkTwice
And maybe, just maybe, we shouldnt vote for president based on who had the same thing for breakfast as you (although this will be a very difficult task for voters in the sticks)
Posted 12:01 PM, 09/04/2008
JonKap
Obama's accomplishments take lots of time to read. Hope you have plenty of time. Turn off druggie Limbaugh and learn something son. Google Obama's accomplishments, you will find links to several sites that list all of them. He has sponsored and helped passed dozens and dozens of important bills, from health care to crime bills. Try it, read through them, and then you may be just a little bit less stupid.
Posted 12:02 PM, 09/04/2008
ModerateMarge
There is no one blinder that those who will not see. Barack Obama has a record of accomplishment and judgement behind him. Ms. Palin has a thin resume behind her - and is not above LYING to make herself look better as in being for the bridge to nowhere before she was against it. And frankly having someone who is PRO teaching creationism in school disqualifies this ticket before it is even out of the gate as teaching creationism is for me government getting into religion which is a no no. Look into Ms. Palin's and McCain's records a little - do not just take their word for an issue. You will be shocked at what you find
Posted 12:04 PM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
ModerateMarge can you name an Obama accomplishment please?
Posted 12:04 PM, 09/04/2008
John Brumfield
A hockey mom, yes. And soon to be a hockey mom-in-law.
Posted 12:07 PM, 09/04/2008
sleepy
I guess she's right. Your response is so predictable.
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Posted 12:10 PM, 09/04/2008
CleanupPhilly
I would urge caution that anyone who wants American energy independence simply write off nuclear power. There is no way to meet the volume of demand for energy and not have about double the nuclear capacity we have now with even the most aggressive alt-energy push. Wind/solar/biomass are able to only provide a small fraction of projected demand. How does Obama account for the need for nuclear? He avoids mentioning it. Yet France has done exactly what the US needs to do to achieve energy independence. France made a pact to avoid excursions for oil if the citizenry allowed nuclear power to predominate. Is Obama able to even propose such a solution within his own party? If so, I'd consider going back.
Posted 12:14 PM, 09/04/2008
5forfighting
I have no personal beef with Barry O...I like him on a personal level...I've read his "accomplishments"..Sponsoring bills is not making executive decisions..And when you are voting PRESENT 150 times, well, that certainly doesn't make my leg tingle..In any case, he's running vs McCain, not Palin...So McCain has him beat there, McCain has "Sponsored" more bills than Barry O...Me, personally, I think a candidate should have to run something a business, City, State,etc before being President..But that will never happen, so we in the end pay for it..
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Posted 12:20 PM, 09/04/2008
IrishChaz
You really don't see the irony in bringing up the "style trumps substace" debate?? Your really don't?? You should be really really emabarrassed. I know Obama followers are completely blind to his lack of accomplishment and lack of anything other than rehashed socialistic ideas but geez c'mon. If anyone lacks substance it's Obama, and HE'S ON THE TOP OF YOUR TICKET!
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Posted 12:20 PM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
Here is an accomplishment: He voted present 130 times instead of yes or no. What a leader. Real guts.
Posted 12:23 PM, 09/04/2008
ModerateMarge
One Obama accomplishment - Jan 2007 Wrote major lobbying / ethcis reform bill. There are many, many accomplishments - if interested LOOK FOR THEM instead of repeating the BS coming from Druggie Limbaugh or Half Story Hannity or other GOP shills.
Posted 12:26 PM, 09/04/2008
ModerateMarge
And if we are looking for more accomplishments - how about George Bush and the rest of the GOP talking TIMETABLE for Iraq ??? Obama is just what we need - someone to get out in front of the issues and lead not follow like Bush / McCain and the rest of the GOP.
Posted 12:35 PM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
ModerateMarge that is a complete joke. This bill had a sponsor and 17 cosponsors and not one of them was the Thin Man! What did you just copy that off his website? Still no one has listed a single accomplishment.
Posted 12:36 PM, 09/04/2008
ModerateMarge
No I gave 2. You do not want to accept the truth about Obama you want to parrot BS from the right wing. How sad.
Posted 12:38 PM, 09/04/2008
Rauol Duke
Tom, you would do anything to shake responsibility! You would throw your own grandmother under the bus. If I had to work with you, you would be meeting the better end of my buddy Louie.
Posted 12:42 PM, 09/04/2008
thelastRepublicaninPhilly
Poleman, great spin job. Ok, now lets get some things straight; every politican will tell how much they did or didn't do. The fact is most of it is true and and a little bit of creative explaination. If you don't reealize that then your creditentials that you post really don't mean all that much. Let's go after what you said line by line. 1 Yes, McCain is not the favorite of hard-core conservatives; but that should be a plus for moderates and independents. Right? 2 Actually the voters did know better since McCain got more votes and covered a broader range of people. 3 Why is it a problem to have a economy based on energy, since we need it so badly, especially its made in America. You also neglect to mention the fact that Palin had to fight upstream to stop the earmarks; fight the corruption by becoming Gov. and then having the authority to do something. 4 That earmark was originally drafted for bridge construction only and Stevens was the one that pushed that thru. Once the deal was modified she was able to utilize the funds for infrasttucture needs rather then push for all of the bridge funds; not a bad thought considering the bridge collapse in Minnesota. 5 Petraeus is more cautious with his words; but by any measure we have seen huge progress made, just yesterday it was said that we should be able to turn over Badghad soon and was up to 13 of the 18 providences to Iraq - So that's good, right? Also the fact that she has a son going over there; so what's going on over there is important to her. 6 OK, not a senator, but in elected office for about 13 years and currently manages a $10 billion budget; not bad. 7 She defeated corrupt republicans to become Gov. and at an 18% approval rate; nobody likes Congress, D or R. 8 OK, you might want to not mention open mics. But, IYou also miss the fact that everyone will have opinions about her. She's received an overwhelming amount of praise from all sides; but you just want to focus on the few bad ones.
Posted 12:44 PM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
Well that one certainly doesn't count. How is Bush talking about a timetable (which I am not sure he did) an Obama accomplishment?
Posted 12:44 PM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
Wait I found one!! S.CON.RES.28 : A concurrent resolution congratulating the City of Chicago for being chosen to represent the United States in the international competition to host the 2016 Olympic and Paralympic Games, and encouraging the International Olympic Committee to select Chicago as the site of the 2016 Olympic and Paralympic Games. Yeah BABY!
Posted 12:47 PM, 09/04/2008
ModerateMarge
Your kidding me right ???? With the majority of this country wanting Iraq concluded - see Bush endorse Obama's plan for timetables - and NO google it yourself if you can take yourself away from the right wing shills you so obviously listen to . Lead or get out of the away ! Obama in '08.
Posted 12:48 PM, 09/04/2008
sduffy
to jwad56 & others with this question, here are some of Obama's accomplishments: 1.legislative work on the Illinois Death Penalty, and how he made a difference between life and death 2. His sponsorship of a bill that brought health insurance to 150,000, including 70,000 uninsured Children, again, during his time serving in the Illinois Statehouse 3. His work on both the Immigration bill during his time in the US senate and his sponsorship of Ethics legislation (something he did both while in the State House, and in the Senate) that called for some of the most impactful reform regarding lobbyists since Watergate (as he likes to term it) ... I could keep going but the truth is, this is the internet age & if you can take the time to post here, you obviously have access to a search engine & in case you don't know what to search try "obama accomplishments". It will turn up over 900,000 matches... you can try starting there... lol, truth is whenever someone says that you just sound uninformed... try looking beyond your party's talking points...
Posted 12:53 PM, 09/04/2008
still_independent
tom: when we get the number of troops CLOSE to where they were pre-surge, then maybe we can talk that the surge is working. Handing over a province doesn't mean that we pull our troops out of the province. And as always, what does "victory" mean? If it's a stable, friendly democracy, propped up w/out huge numbers of our troops, then we are a long, long time away from victory.
Posted 12:55 PM, 09/04/2008
sduffy
for Xi Jah, dude, do you not understand the eb & flow of legislation? bush's veto is the last hurdle & in many cases a bill can't even get to him because while it is true that the dems have a majority, they don't have a veto proof majority in either house, so often many of their best efforts die on the floor or they are so cut-up during compromise that they lose the thrust of the original effort. With 4 years of a GOP controlled gov't you can get a lot accomplished. With 2 years of a divided Congress, you really can't get much through. Not to mention it was in the GOP's best interest to thwart all Dem moves in the last 2 years, so that they would have as few positive accomplishments as possible heading into this election cycle. The GOP are great campaigners & it would be foolish to think that they weren't preparing for this election the second they lost congress... Country before Party??? Please not with the GOP
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Posted 12:56 PM, 09/04/2008
still_independent
last repub: as for #4, no, she was wholeheartedly for the bridge. I can provide actual quotes if you want.
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Posted 12:57 PM, 09/04/2008
junethe4th
Polman, your journalism rates on a par with MSNBC's Oberman & Matthews. No wonder you sometimes contribute to that station. Question. As a faculty member at UofP and considering your fair and unbias reporting, if a student writes a story, report, essay etc that you find to hold a view other than yours, will he/she receive a passing grade?
Posted 01:00 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
ModerateMarge, are you referring to the ethics reform he worked on with Richard Lugar, which he then withdrew support for after getting a rebuke from the Democrat leadership? Raoul, for what am I shaking responsibility? I simply pointed out inaccuracies in Polman's piece. Today's thread was so desparate. Nobody can say she lied in her speech, because she simply used Obama's words against him. Had Obama never designed his own presidential seal, then that could not be used against him. Had he not stated "this is the moment when the oceans began to recede and the planet began to heal", then it could not have been used against him. And he is the one who threw his grandmother under the bus, calling her a racist in his race speech. As for his accomplishments, lots of senators sponsor bills....they just have their name added to them. They do not write the bills, they do not discuss the bills, they just add their names (sometimes after they are passed). Maybe the Republicans spent like drunken sailors, but the Democrat were enablers, providing them the alcohol, since they did not filibuster any spending bills. Equal blame.
Posted 01:00 PM, 09/04/2008
Bud Fox
"perhaps she could have repeated McCain's line about how she is qualified because "Alaska is right next to Russia."" what? since when is that McCain's line? McCain has never said anything like that. Now THAT is a lie my friend, and cowardly.
Posted 01:02 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
noel, do you work in an organization with a budget bigger than the state of Alaska ($12.3 Billion) and more employees than the state of Alaska (over 29,000)?
Posted 01:02 PM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
sduffy thanks for the response. I have no party by the way. It's just that Obama truly is the thin man. Actually if you google obama's accomplishments you get well over a million pages but they all list the same 3 things you said. I am looking for a leader...This is a good column by the fine author today. You can just insert Obama's name for Palin and reprint on gop.com.
Posted 01:05 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
noel...hysterical? However, you are correct. Anybody can read a speech off a teleprompter, which is why I look at Obama as an empty suit. He reads a speech off a teleprompter very well, but once away from a teleprompter is full of "uh, eh, um, well uh, I mean, uh" and is barely coherent. He has not yet had a coherent thought not written for him by his speechwriter Axelrod. We will see if Palin can pull off what Obama obviously cannot.
Posted 01:08 PM, 09/04/2008
sduffy
& jwad... "How is Bush talking about a timetable (which I am not sure he did) an Obama accomplishment?" Now you just reveal yourself to be a GOP puppet... after all the years of cowboy tactics & retreat is surrender you have the hawkish bush admin working on a timetable at teh behest of the iraqi ppl, something obama was for & working towards while bush still had visions of wmds in his head... then on top of that john mccain got all cowboy over russia, which was in direct opposition to the position rice (who i think is great & i am so happy it is her running foreign policy now as opposed to rumsfeld & crew) took... obama was on the same page as rice, so what does that tell you?
Posted 01:08 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
I am sick of people saying the Republican party is pro-life until it comes to the lives of soldiers. How about cops and firefighters? If I am pro-life, does that mean I do not want a firefighter going into a burning building to look for survivors? Does that mean I do not want a police officer chasing after a criminal for fear they might get shot? If I am pro-choice, does that mean I would say to a soldier "we are at war, but if you do not want to go, you have the choice to say so and you can stay here". Big difference. Soldiers volunteer, know they may be faced with death, and accept that challenge and responsibility. I suppose if we asked an unborn child, some may say they choose to be aborted, but since we cannot ask them and they cannot answer, we will never know.
Posted 01:11 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
still....please provide quotes or site of quotes where she actually supports the bridge. I am very curious.
Posted 01:13 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
McCain supposedly showed bad judgement by voting with Bush 90% of the time. Obama voted with Bush in 2007 approximately 43% of the time. So, when did McCain show bad judgement...on all 90% of the votes, or only the 47% that Obama did not vote with Bush. Just asking.
Posted 01:13 PM, 09/04/2008
sduffy
hey jwad, obama has sponsored 800 bills: 233 related to healthcare, 125 related to poverty & public assistance, 112 for crime & corrections, 97 on business & the economy, 62 on education, 60 on civil & human rights, 35 on infrastructure & public works, 21 apiece on ethics & administration, 20 on the environment, 15 on gun control & then 21 others on random stuff... if you want a leader you don't want mccain, a man who is a neo-con, a man who doesn't know the economy, a man who really isn't in touch with the world as it is today... america's role is changing, and while i would never tell anyone obama is a perfect candidate, he is the best choice we have now, if for no other reason than he is on the opposite side of the extreme that got us into our current mess.
Posted 01:14 PM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
sduffy none of that is an Obama accomplishment.
Posted 01:16 PM, 09/04/2008
sduffy
Xi Jah, brilliant well thought out response, really shows your command of the issues at stake, dude, lol, come on man it's obvious you are bias here and not totally informed of that which you speak...
Posted 01:17 PM, 09/04/2008
thelastRepublicaninPhilly
ModerateMarge, I looked and found what are considered Obama's accomplishments and to be honest I'm not impressed. McCain also has ethics reform with campaign financing, and ending earmarks. McCain has consistently fought against excessive spending and has fought against the 527's. I'd say McCain wins that comparison but at best you could call it an even split. OK, he did some work with non-proliferation of nukes. Now, that all well and good and most people will say that's a good thing but tell me he has more. By the way, what is Obama going to do to stop Iran from getting nukes? Diplomacy? Do you think that will work with a state that sponsors terrorism? Doubtful. Obama voted present roughly 130 while actually serving and has done virtually nothing in the Senate once he started running for president after 143 days in office. Based on other senators he has the most liberal record and Biden is #3. Obama does not have much in the way of accomplishments to speak of, so he has to rely almost purely on style. In Palin's time as mayor and governor she actually did accomplish more results that directly affect Americans.
Posted 01:18 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
sduffy, he could have his name added as a sponsor to a bill even after it is passed. Did he write any of that legislation? McCain "wrote" McCain/Feingold AND the Immigration Bill (both of which I was against). Can you give a bill that has Obama's name on it? Were any of those bills he sponsored from the Illinois legislature on which he voted "present"?
Posted 01:20 PM, 09/04/2008
still_independent
tom: "I think we're going to make a good team as we progress that bridge project." Besides poor English - good enough?
Posted 01:20 PM, 09/04/2008
sduffy
jwad, do me a favor, please explain how obama's work with legislation is any less of an accomplishment than mccain's? maybe you don't see a difference which would be refreshing... (fyi, i don't really think any senator should be able to run for POTUS, but the system is what it is)...
Posted 01:21 PM, 09/04/2008
p-diddy
Tom, your post from 11:07am is a joke. The Iraq invasion of 2003 is what ultimately sunk President Bush and the Republican brand (his approval ratings were in the pits even before the economy really went south). The reason why the current congress' approval rating is so low is because the Democratic base is upset that they haven't stood up to the Bush administration. Obviously GOPers aren't going to like a Democratic congress. That's how you get an approval rating of 20-something percent.
Posted 01:21 PM, 09/04/2008
justwondering
I am still very concerned that I will be labeled a sexist if I don't vote for McCain-Palin.
Posted 01:23 PM, 09/04/2008
SteveMG
You're right, bud, that was Cindy McCain's line, and a few others too. This experience thing is funny. Look where experience has gotten us. How'd that MBA President thing work out? We aren't electing a manager, we are electing a President. I want somebody with vision. I'm sick of the candidates, whether it was Clinton or McCain or Romney or Giuliani, who put expediency above vision. Rather than expecting the best from all of us they focus on the worst in some of us. How's that working out? Instead of what could have been an uplifting campaign, John McCain decided to surrender to the far right that had so despised him. If he was so desperate to become President that he caved in to them, who is he going to stand up for? From what I remember, he even voted against his own immigration bill.
Posted 01:23 PM, 09/04/2008
still_independent
lastRepub - I know these different groups do their ratings, but I recall that in 2000, Lieberman was in the top 5 (dem VP), in 2004, Kerry and Edwards were #2 and #1, in 2006 when Hilary looked like a sure thing she was in the top 5, and now Obama and Biden are #1 and #3. Seems a bit convenient. Love to know the criteria of what makes up a "liberal voting record".
Posted 01:24 PM, 09/04/2008
sduffy
tom - wilmington, de, well truth be told as one of the more junior senators, obama isn't really in a position to author legislation (which gets into the culture of congress... which isn't the topic but if you want we could go there), although he did have major input into the top 3 I listed earlier (and those are the only ones I can confirm)... & yes mccain did author both of those, which he has since backtracked on to gain his party's favor, what a maverick...
Posted 01:25 PM, 09/04/2008
thelastRepublicaninPhilly
The fact that Obama has been harping about getting troops out means nothing. We have been drawing our troops down because providences are becoming secured and the Iraqis are able to finally step in and handle the job. Considering the fact that if we left when Obama first said it would have been genocide and a base for terrorists, or if we listened to Biden and divided Iraq into 3 seperate countries, these guys might not want to draw that much attention to fact that attacks, deaths and wounded are at an all time low, the Iraqi forces and government are finally getting on their feet and we are leaving with honor and victory. It was McCain that stuck his neck out and put his faith in the troops; that brought us victory and stability in Iraq.
Posted 01:26 PM, 09/04/2008
H Velour
All I've been hearing on right-wing radio the last ten years is how Hillary Clinton should be boiled in oil for being such a scheming, uptight witch. Watching ten seconds of Sarah Palin at a podium makes Hillary look like Clara Barton. The hypocrisy of the conservative faction knows no bounds.
Posted 01:26 PM, 09/04/2008
thelastRepublicaninPhilly
still_independent, I know the quote and she was pushing for infrastructure improvements; nice try.
Posted 01:27 PM, 09/04/2008
ModerateMarge
At least you found some accomplishments !!! There are many more, keep looking ! What scares me is that Bush has done so very little to round up the Nuclear materials. I would trust an Obama administration alot more than Bush III to round up these materials. I do not believe the Palin news is over. Just how do you think the middle will react when the find out she is for teaching creationism in the public schools ???? A fringe candidate is not a good Vice President candidate.
Posted 01:28 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
So when will Obama drop Biden and add Hillary?
Posted 01:28 PM, 09/04/2008
junethe4th
Wow, Obama has sponsored 800 bills. When did he have the time to do all that? He's been running for president for almost 2 years. He's been a senator for what - 4 years. Quite the accomplishments. Means working late into the night, weekends, holidays, and even during the 3 months of vacation each year. A real superman! He's got my vote.
Posted 01:31 PM, 09/04/2008
thelastRepublicaninPhilly
sduffy, of those "800" only 37 of them made it into law. Big numbers don't mean anything if they don't produce results.
Posted 01:31 PM, 09/04/2008
thelastRepublicaninPhilly
sduffy, of those "800" only 37 of them made it into law. Big numbers don't mean anything if they don't produce results.
Posted 01:32 PM, 09/04/2008
gee1971
talk about hypocricy...aren't faith based initiaves one of the causes the republican party has made a priority over the last 8 years and continue to today. And rightfully so in my opinion. So obama started out his Community Org and development career with the Developing Communities Project whose board consisted of 8 catholic priests. Would that be considered a "Faith Based Initiative"? Thought so. Sorry I'm a little slow on sarcasm translation. I guess, in hindsight that was praise Palin and Guliani were bestowing o the next president for his efforts to help the Down-and-out pick themselves up by their bootstraps. I mean, they wouldn't blatantly and repeatedly ridicule the value and contribution made by a man to a cause they continually hype, and market as both necessary and evidence of their commitment to the poor, would they?
Posted 01:32 PM, 09/04/2008
sduffy
thelastRepublicaninPhilly, 1st off, it's not like obama wanted to pull out all our troops en masse at once, he wanted a scaled draw down which is exactly what military strat dictates. 2nd, yes mccain did push for the surge, but where was he at the beginning when bush & cheney decided we could invade iraq with army-lite? where was he when the body armor wasn't getting there? where was he when they came home & faced deplorable hospital conditions? where was he when the admin tried to force the VA to disinclude ptsd as a disease? where was he when the soldier's education benefits were minimized? Yeah he called for the surge at a time when it was the only viable option left... & remember he was 5th from the bottom on his graduating class at the academy & a big reason for his success was that his dad was an admiral otherwise he would have been on the poopdeck instead of a plane...
Posted 01:33 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
Wait, Obama sponsored 800 bills? He was in the US Senate 143 days before running for president. He's missed several votes. If he really has been working that much, what does that say about him as a father. Palin cannot be a good mother and run for VP, so how can Obama be a good father when he was working all that time on 800 bills AND running for president? Marge, what can an American president do about "rounding up" nuclear material in other countries? Are we to just march in and scoop it up? Get serious. There is only so much a president can do about a matter such as that, but nice try. You must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel if that is what you came up with. And I did not see an uptight woman last night, although Harry Reid, as reported by CNN, referred to her as shrill.
Posted 01:33 PM, 09/04/2008
thelastRepublicaninPhilly
justwondering, but you might be labeled a racist if you don't vote for Obama. Just can't win can we.
Posted 01:36 PM, 09/04/2008
ModerateMarge
I think the news on Palin is not over. Her flip flop on the bridge to nowhere will tarnish her supposed reformer / maverick label. While her personal view on abortion is laudable - do you think the middle voters want an extremeist as the 2nd in command ??? Will her support for teaching creationism in PUBLIC schools fly with the middle of the electorate ??? I liked her personally - just not as Vice President.
Posted 01:41 PM, 09/04/2008
MdeanL
Palin had nothing legitimate to offer except tough talk. Give the GOP credit, they know what works and they stick with it. The dems are guilty of this as well but in a different way. Tough talk and how well you sound works, sad but true. Conventions mean nothing, let them debate face to face. Maybe then the candidates will speak with substance but I doubt it.
Posted 01:42 PM, 09/04/2008
yobill626
p-diddy: I couldn't agree more with the reason for the low approval rating of Congress. More Dems were elected so that they would stand up to Bush & "stop the madness". However, the majority really isn't a majority. That majority exists solely because of Joe Lieberman, & both he & the Dems know it. Hawk that he is, there's only so much he's going to let go before he would have switched his caucusing allegiances. Although I'm no fan of Harry Reid, he's not in a very good situation.
Posted 01:42 PM, 09/04/2008
still_independent
lastRepub - while yes, she also mentioned general improvements, she was asked SPECIFICALLY about the bridge. A bridge is an infrastructure improvement. Try to spin out of it, she was fine w/ the bridge (oh, and $27M worth of earmarks for her tiny little town before that) until they pulled funding for the remainder....Please don't talk about "drawing our troops down" until they are even close to pre-surge levels. There were approx. 132,000 troops before the surge. We're still at about 145,000.
Posted 01:43 PM, 09/04/2008
sduffy
tom - wilmington, de, haha, i would never make that statement about palin or anybody, so that falls on def ears here. just because you heard something in the msm, don't assume that everyone who wants obama in has the same talking points, most of us understand the idiocy of msm... after all it is a business & nothing sells like sensationalism right? Your sarcasm & dismissal shows a lack of openess to new ideas, which is troubling... after all these guys & gals are politicians & in the end, us "regular" folk really can't put too much stock in anything they say, & we must keep a watchful eye on everything they do... i look at the last 8 years as evidence of where blind faith leads us...
Posted 01:43 PM, 09/04/2008
p-diddy
Wow, great speech. Let's see, she said that Obama is inexperienced (this coming from someone with a half-term as governor of Alaska), she decried the "liberal" media and talked up being a "hockey mom". Whoo-hooo!! I can't believe many pundits and Republicans seem to think this was a great speech. Laura Ingraham called it "the greatest speech ever". Forget Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address, the "I Have A Dream" speech, Gandhi's "Quit India" speech, FDR's "fireside" addresses or JFK's "Ask Not" speech. We now have Palin's GOP convention address! Politics at its most shallow.
Posted 01:44 PM, 09/04/2008
thelastRepublicaninPhilly
ModerateMarge, I can't find the records right now but we do have non-proliferation treaties and we have been working to secure the material around the world. Ever since Reagan we have been doing it. The problem is when countries that have not signed the treay engage aquire and develop the technology themselves. Obama has not taken a tough stance; McCain has. The biggest fear is what should be done to keep Iran from developing these weapons. Asking them nicely won't work. The other thing about creationism is Palin felt it should be an option tought in class, not a requirement and not to replace what is currently accepted as proven science. Even when she had the authority to do so she didn't force it thru the school system.
Posted 01:45 PM, 09/04/2008
sduffy
thelastRepublicaninPhilly, anyone that calls you a racist for your stance is an idiot, unless you are one, but i don't think you are... but also, please don't pull that out when race hasn't even been dropped in this chat, it's a measure of the lost...
Posted 01:48 PM, 09/04/2008
thelastRepublicaninPhilly
still_independent, I listen to Petraeus on the news on Iraq, the troops and the success; no one else. He has been cautious but optimistic. He made the comments about finishing up in Badghad.
Posted 01:59 PM, 09/04/2008
Djoko Pritza
Hey, Tom, a quote from you this morn: “jwad, one thing Obama did was work on ethics reform with Lugar and McCain, then … pulled his support for the legislation (for which McCain wrote him a stern letter of criticism).” Tom, you like to chide folks for not giving the full fact case. Here, you neglected(?) to note that McCain later apologized for the letter. You like to strike a holier-than-thou posture, but, admit it, you’re the same partisan hack as the rest of us.
Posted 02:00 PM, 09/04/2008
bruguera
Can you live with this::: MCCAIN (no changes) Single making 30K - tax $4,500 Single making 50K - tax $12,500 Single making 75K - tax $18,750 Married making 60K- tax $9,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250 OBAMA (reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts) Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Under Obama, your taxes could almost double!
Posted 02:04 PM, 09/04/2008
still_independent
thelastRepublicaninPhilly: no problem w/ listening to general P. When did he declare victory?.... bruguera - OBAMA has never proposed doing what you wrote (i.e. reverting to all of the pre-bush tax cuts).
Posted 02:05 PM, 09/04/2008
MdeanL
Its sad how politicians exploit fear and its even sadder how well it works. Im just curious how tough talk and threats of war are expected to stop another 9-11, when thats the very reason terrorism exists in the first place. Im even more curious how the GOP turned into the national security experts. I see a national security mess the past 8 years which over spent and created bigger government in the name of national security, not very conservative. Im an undecided voter so somebody please enlighten me.
Posted 02:07 PM, 09/04/2008
Bud Fox
SteveMG, no, it wasn't Cindy McCain's line either. that's another lie. okay, so perhaps McCain did cave to the far right with this pick- but so did Obama. Obama was suppossed to be the "candidate of change". Joe Biden is the least "change" I can think of. Obama says it's not about experience, it's about character. clearly Biden was picked for his experience more than his moral character. both sides are guilty of this. I do love watching the libs twist and turn with this Palin thing- they know she's the real thing and it scares the beejezzus out of them.
Posted 02:08 PM, 09/04/2008
p-diddy
BOHICA - I've sent my $1000 to Tom from Wilmington. I told him to pass it on to McCain for me. I'm glad to hear Palin mentioned her husband's "proud membership in the United Steelworkers union". I can't wait to hear more about the pro-union platform of the McSame/Palin ticket.
Posted 02:11 PM, 09/04/2008
bird11
noel711 - Bush has vetoed about 10 bills and I think 2 of them were overturned - next excuse why the Democratic Congress has done nothing, please.
Posted 02:23 PM, 09/04/2008
Christine
It is amazing how the people on this site will talk about Palin's 'lies,' with little corroboration or support (nice try Mr. Polman, but your 'facts' are selectively chosen and taken out of context, particularly the 'bridge to nowhere' zinger) but will give a pass to Senator Obama who has lied about his vote on so many things, including his vote on a partial birth abortion bill which would have mandated triage for the victims of unsuccessful abortions. If you want to discuss 'lies', read David Freddoso's book "The Case Against Barack Obama." It may be partisan, but at least it has footnotes.
Posted 02:27 PM, 09/04/2008
thelastRepublicaninPhilly
still_independent, like I said, the General is more cautious with his words. The fact is he is confindent that we are making progress, we have been turning over providences and he was optimistic that with a year Bagdhad would be controlled by Iraqi forces. This is great news.
Posted 02:39 PM, 09/04/2008
still_independent
Bud Fox: you're sort of right. Just Cindy didn't say it. Just John didn't say it. Cindy and John McCain BOTH said it. From the August 31 episode of ABC's "This Week with George Stephanopoulos", Cindy McCain: "Also, remember, Alaska is the closest part of our continent to Russia. So it's not as if she doesn't understand what's at stake here.".... Sept 4, on ABC's "World News Tonight, John McCain - "...and she understands. Alaska is right next to Russia. She understands that." .... I didn't even look at this until you challeneged whoever on this. I CANT BELIEVE ANYONE IS ACTUALLY MAKING THIS ARGUMENT !!! Add Fox News' Steve Doocy, U.S. News' Michael Barone, and writer Frank Gaffney to the lost of those that have made this argument with a straight face.
Posted 02:44 PM, 09/04/2008
SteveMG
Is Freddoso the guy who footnotes himself, or was that the Swift boat guy?
Posted 02:45 PM, 09/04/2008
thelastRepublicaninPhilly
MdeanL, terrorism exists because unfortunately there is a small but determined group that use it to achieve thier goals. Unfortunaltey it mostly consists of killing innocent lives. Terrorism has existed for many years; this not a new thing and "talking tough" didn't cause it. Terrorists existed way before 9/11. In many cases, taking a strong stance has prevented countries from attacking on another. It was in the countries best interest not to attack another since the retalliation was too severe to deal with. However, many terrorists work outside of this framework and are more difficult to stop. However, we can exert pressure on countries that would support or harbor them. The GOP has historically taken this stance since they have been more pro-active in foreign policy and believe that a strong military would discourage others from taking action. The threat of a military strike from the US has been effective many times to bring a calm resolve to tense issues. The GOP didn't have exclusive rights on this; JFK was actually a big supporter of the strong military concept to deter wars. The problem is there is no simple answer to this. The best we can do is to be always vigilant and prepared as best as possible. We don't know for sure when or how we would be attacked. Most of the time we get lucky. But after 9/11 it was clear that some things had to be changed. I don't agree with everything that Bush has done in this matter but the fact is we have not been attacked since 9/11.
Posted 02:52 PM, 09/04/2008
JimR
bruguera, those numbers must be on paper as opposed to the real world. I think all of my taxes are too high for what I get but I'm in one of those brackets exactly and my Federal (and total, for that matter) are not at those levels.
Posted 02:55 PM, 09/04/2008
still_independent
thelastRepublicaninPhilly: first, I agreed with what you wrote about the general. What I disagree with is saying the "victory is in sight" without defining it.... The towers bombing was in 1993. 9/11 was 8 years later. All I hear is that Clinton "did nothing about terrorism", yet we went 8 years between attacks. Why should I give Bush credit, then, for a 7 year gap? I guess "If they weren't killing us over there, they'd be killing us over here" is a strategy, but I'm not giving anyone credit for it.
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Posted 03:05 PM, 09/04/2008
bird11
sduffy - now I heard it all. The GOP has blocked the great legislation the Dems would have passed because the Dems would have gotten too much credit but the Dems are the ones still trying to run against George Bush. Couldn't be the opposite, the Dems care so little for this country that they prefer a recession to losing another Presidential election. Remember the economy under Clinton you all praise, who ran Congress then?
Posted 03:15 PM, 09/04/2008
sduffy
bird11, I didn't talk about the merit of the legislation, I was merely noting a procedural fact of life with congress... whether or not the dems would have enacted meaningful legislation is total speculation... & yes the repubs did run congress for half of clinton's 8 years, and the country did great... they also ran it for half of bush's 8 years & the country is in the crapper... so who do you think that is more a reflection of? clinton was such a popular president the republicans had a hard time going against him (and if you look at a lot of the legislation from the time it was tilted dem) whereas when bush was president the republican congress could indulge in its worst excesses, no matter the popularity of the president or congress for that matter. Do you wanna try another approach?
Posted 03:27 PM, 09/04/2008
bird11
mDeanL - let me add to what theLastrepublicanin philly said about 9/11. Terrorism was around long before 9/11 - 1st trade center bombing, USS Cole, embassy bombings....all the way back to the marines attacked in Beirut in 1983, the hostages in Iran and beyond for other countries (The Brits might say George Washington, et al were terrorist because of non-conventional war tactics). The problem, IMHO, is that these attacks were treated as crimes and not attacks of war. Since 9/11 we have taken a war footing and have been more aggressive when possible. The problem we currently face with UBL is that when terrorist are in countries that are less then enemies but far from friends - do you invade a sovereign nation with which you have no real fight?? Tough call.
Posted 03:31 PM, 09/04/2008
bird11
sduffy 12:55pm "Not to mention it was in the GOP's best interest to thwart all Dem moves in the last 2 years, so that they would have as few positive accomplishments as possible heading into this election cycle." DID I MISINTERPRET THIS STATEMENT??
Posted 03:32 PM, 09/04/2008
bird11
SDUFFY - THEY RAN IT FOR THE FIRST HALF, COUNTRY NOT IN THE CRAPPER THEN. C'MON ADMIT THE REPUBS BLOCKED GREAT DEM PROGRESS WAS WEAK.
Posted 03:38 PM, 09/04/2008
MdeanL
thelastrepub - point taken thanks for the input, but i have to say im still not entirely convinced the GOP means better security for Americans.
Posted 03:39 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
djoko, ooops. Sorry. Let me revise and extend my comments. "Obama pulled his support for the legislation after being rebuked by the Democrat majority leaders. For that, he received a stern letter from McCain criticizing him for which McCain later apologized". There, that makes a big difference. I'll try not to let that happen again.
Posted 03:41 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
diddy, I'm just going to waste(?) your $1,000 on beer and nachos during this weekends football games.
Posted 03:48 PM, 09/04/2008
MdeanL
Bird11 - I agree with you that is a tough call. Im not claiming to be an expert but in my opinion bullying the sovereign nations into controlling small bands of terrorists would be equivolent of another nation forcing us to stop all gang activity in our major cities. It cant be done and i fear the bullying will only rally them to a "terrorists cause" causing us more harm in turn. But your right the calls is certainly a tough one.
Posted 03:51 PM, 09/04/2008
thelastRepublicaninPhilly
still_independent, fair enough on the definition of victory. The accepted definition of victory (some people have various intrepretations of victory) is to have a functional military and police force in Iraq that can handle the security without us (I think we are at 13 of 18 providences), and to have a functional government in Iraq. They did have elections and do have a government in place; it's a great start. So some are more cautious and some are more optimistic but we are definitely winning. Now, when it comes to terrorism, I would have preferred if Clinton had done more. Granted we were in pre-9/11 times and we thought we could handle this the way we were doing it then. But, in addition to the first WTC attack in '93, you must also take into consideration the USS Cole in 2000, the 1998 US Embassy bombings in Africa, the Khobar Towers bombing in 1996 and the 1994 plot to assassinate President Bill Clinton by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. We have been under attack by terrorists for some time now. The problem it becomes an out of sight out of mind problem since it's difficult to have a traditional war front with a terrorist. Fortunately a front was developed in Iraq and Afghanistan and we are winning there. Both administrations have done everything they could to stop it. However the Bush administration has been more successful at stopping the terrorist attacks.
Posted 04:03 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
Kelly O'Donnell reported last night that Palin's teleprompter malfunctioned last night during her speech and that she delivered a lot of it either ad libbing or from memory. Pretty impressive. And I think the clock should start on Biden.
Posted 04:06 PM, 09/04/2008
bird11
MdeanL-I don't think we are "bullying" other countries, I think we are paying off their elected officials other overt with foreign aid or covertly. The problem is we don't seem to be getting much bang for our buck but again we have few options. If Pakistan were to fall into a Taliban style government friendly to terroist remeber Pakistan has nukes - and I don't think they would be covered by Obama's great piece of bipartisan legislation.
Posted 04:06 PM, 09/04/2008
still_independent
thelastRepublicaninPhilly: for victory: does it need to be a democracy? When we "hand over" a province, does it count if our combat troops are still in it? If in say 5 years, we still have 75,000 troops in Iraq, did we "win"? When you say "handle the security without us", does that mean that we have no (or very few) combat troops in Iraq? ...... Don't bring up things like the Cole, Khobar, etc. I agree that they are terrorist attacks. However, we just choose not to count them now if they occur in Iraq or Afghanistan. Funny, a bomb in a van in NYC - terrorist attack. A bomb on a boat in Yemen - terrorist attck. Bomb in a car in Baghdad - not a terrorist attack. My point is, we have suffered many terrorist attacks since 9/11, we just choose not to call them as such, so we can claim "we haven't been attacked since 9/11". Seems kind of arbitrary and convenient.
Comment removed.
Posted 04:18 PM, 09/04/2008
bird11
still-independent - clearly the reference is there were no terrorist attacks on U.S. soil. Why not include the train bombing in Spain otherwise? The difference is we are treating this as war, not a police matter. Instead of having U.S. civilians slaughtered, we are giving our troops a chance to fight our enemy. During the other attacks we simply did nothing to fight back - IMHO fighting back is the only way. (Of course, I applauded Palin last night for her line about not worrying if a terrorist was read his rights)
Posted 04:19 PM, 09/04/2008
junethe4th
Bruguera where did you get your numbers? Are you referring to gross income or adjusted taxable income? Are you including all State and Local taxes, medicare and social security. A single individual making $30k will be in the federal marginal tax bracket of 14%(IRS Pub 17, 2007) then throw on approx 7.5% Social Security & Medicare for about 21-22% in taxes (State & Local taxes excluded). The effective tax rate (Gross income sans Standard Deduction & Personal Exemption) would drop to about 13% while Social Security & Medicare stay the same. As I understand Obama's plan, he wants to cut the income tax, but increase the Social Security & Medicare rate. No savings there. In fact we could end up paying more depending on how SS and Medicare are increased.
Posted 04:20 PM, 09/04/2008
tom - wilmington, de
Palin's speech drew over 37 million viewers last night. Pretty good. Still, it would be great if we left behind a democracy, but that would be up to the Iraqi people, wouldn't it?
Posted 04:25 PM, 09/04/2008
dipasq
Jwad, do a little research like everyone else and you'll find plenty of accomplishments.
Posted 04:40 PM, 09/04/2008
bird11
jwad - google "obama accomplishments" and you'll get about 975,000 results, then google "obama antichrist" and you'll get 802,000 results. Not sure what that says other than if you google "obama and ____________" you get a lot of results on google. Seems no one here wants to list any of Obama's accomplishments however since they are as meaningless as the google search. Googling "obama accomplishments" gets you as many meaningful results as googling "french military victories".
Posted 04:41 PM, 09/04/2008
junethe4th
Hey Polman, I have to say I got caught up in reading all the responses (by the way much better than your original article) that I missed the paragragh about Gov Huckabee's comment on the number of votes Biden received in the primaries. You really are a parrot for MSNBC, aren't you? Oberman said the same thing after Gov Huckabee's speech, but you did miss the Lincoln reference(nodding off, huh?). Probably if I listened to or read the speech transcript I can pull apart what Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama said last week. I have to say I did not listen to Michell Obama (first impressions are lasting impressions), but I did listen to Hillary Clinton because my wife had it on. At first I thought the wife was watching a kid's show like Barney or whatever until I realized that was Hillary in the bright orange suit. I do remember a point brought up in her speech about a veteran asking about health benefits. No refernce to the person's name or city or what. Is this fact, can it be substantiated or was it throw into her speech by one of the speechwriters (gasp)?
Posted 04:57 PM, 09/04/2008
bird11
junethe 4th - if you want to play the Dems stupid word games Polen is also wrong on the Biden numbers - seems Polen thinks running in the Democratic Primary is the same as running for President, not so. You see Biden has never received a vote for President, at least that I am aware of (Joe or his children might have wrote Biden in but I doubt it). Of course for the Dems they think running for a nomination is the same as running for President.
Posted 05:00 PM, 09/04/2008
JimR
No one should be making arguments in favor of either party in Congress. They've both made a mess of almost everything they've touched. But look what we're using as the talent pool for president. Three out of the four players come from the only government body with a poorer rating than GWB.....and we put them all there!
Posted 05:05 PM, 09/04/2008
MdeanL
I have a hard time accepting the "we fight them over there so they cant hurt us over here" argument. Terrorists who decided to attack our home soil will do so regardless of where are troops are. I believe limited smart military action is most definately necessary however its proven history this type of war is unwinnable militarily. Over use of military in my opinion will only increase their numbers, rally their cause, and prolong the conflict over generations and result in an endless war. Look at Palestine/Israel.
Posted 05:09 PM, 09/04/2008
junethe4th
bird11. I was trying to be sarcastic. Didn't go over big, huh?
Posted 05:09 PM, 09/04/2008
Perry Clark
Sarah Palin, Senator McCain's choice for VP... FYI...info sent to me via an Alaskan... Many of you may know that Gov. Palin is a lifetime member of the NRA; but what you may not know is this... ...Gov Palin "has worked tirelessly to allow indiscriminate hunting of wildlife in Alaska, particularly wolves and bears. She has spent millions of Alaska state dollars on aerial hunting of these predators from helicopters and airplanes, dollars that should have been spent, for example, on Alaska's failing school system. We have the lowest rate of high school graduation in the country. Not all of you may think aerial predator hunting is so bad, but how anyone could think this use of funds is appropriate is beyond me..."
Posted 05:15 PM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
Here you go now all you Obama Koolaid drinkers can try and backpedal. http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/04/obama-surge-succeeded-beyond-wildest-dreams/
Posted 05:20 PM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
McCain is absolutely right that this guy would lose a war to get elected.
Posted 05:32 PM, 09/04/2008
JeffA
Some great posts on here. Some of the usual suspects lacking anything more than disparaging remarks as well - yeah, I'm talking to you Xi-Jah dude..LOL
Posted 05:35 PM, 09/04/2008
MdeanL
The war is unwinnable to begin with. The enemy will hide as long as they have to and come back as soon as we leave. It doesnt matter if we leave sooner with Obama or later with McCain. Look at a history book and read about any insurgency they typically all end the same way. With the greater power leaving in defeat. Weather its a year long or hundred year long war.
Posted 05:35 PM, 09/04/2008
Perry Clark
As we Americans prepare to elect a new President...can anyone out there state the positive impact that the current Administration has had upon the U.S. economy for the past eight years?
Posted 05:39 PM, 09/04/2008
JeffA
McCain, Obama, and Biden all lack executive experience. I acknowledge this. Palin has it, though not much. She loses me with her social agenda: she's a fundamentalist and we don't need true believers in government. Let's leave them to Iran. The other three chose public office (was going to write service, but they all end up wealthier somehow) that didn't lead to one of the 50 governorships. Obama can't point to a lot of federal legislation, but junior senators tend not to accomplish that fact. He is a bit of an empty suit, but the mitigating factors for him are his intangibles, like President of Harvard Law Review and the first black at the top of a ticket.
Posted 05:48 PM, 09/04/2008
Perry Clark
Let me restate the question...but before I do, allow me to make a point...On this date, September 4, 2008, the U.S. economy is in trouble and many Americans are hurting, so...Can anyone out there state the positive impact that the current Administration has had upon the U.S. economy for the past eight years?
Posted 06:07 PM, 09/04/2008
doo dah man
Wow. How many comments do I have to submit before one of my comments critical of Polman gets published? This marks three. Don't worry though. I've had enough of The Inquirer's bias. I canceled my subscription today. Adios to philly.com too.
Posted 06:13 PM, 09/04/2008
yoda
Perry, how about this: The Bush administration has positively trashed the robust, surplus-spinning economy that was entrusted to them by a Democratic presidential administration?
Posted 06:42 PM, 09/04/2008
still_independent
bird11: thanks for making my point. We went 8 years between attacks on US soil under Clinton (who I admit didn't do very much to prevent terrorism), and it's been 7 years since 9/11 - so I'm not giving anyone credit that we haven't been attacked YET.
Posted 06:51 PM, 09/04/2008
still_independent
tom: no offense to Barb, but don't get a Harley unless you also save up lots of $$ for maintenance. I've owned 2 Hondas, 1 Toyota, an Indian and a Harley. You can't even change the blanking air filter w/out Harley tools. Plus you get the benefit of last decade's technology at next decade's prices. They do sound cool, though (not sure that the offset crankshaft is worth the extra 5-10k, though).
Posted 06:59 PM, 09/04/2008
bethcallahan
Obama has supported a woman's right to choose and sponsored bills such as the Global Poverty Act of 2007, the Improving Food-borne Illness Surveillance and Response Act of 2008, the Strengthening Transparency and Accountability in Federal Spending Act of 2008, and the Veterans Homelessness Prevention Act to name some of a few. What has Mrs. Palin done? She exposed corruption in Alaska. Big hairy deal. She did the minimum of what any decent human being should have done. Exposing corruption shouldn't be the exception, it should be the rule.
Posted 07:03 PM, 09/04/2008
noel711
You know 'jwad56' I wondered myself... so I did a little work: (but perhaps we should check with the ultimate authority:Palin) Obama's legislative accomplishments: -Obama Helped Pass The 2007 Ethics Reform Law, which curbed The Influence Of Lobbyists And Was Described As The “Most Sweeping Since Watergate.” -Obama And Lugar Passed Law Boosting U.S. Efforts To Keep WMDs And Other Dangerous Weapons Out Of The Hands Of Terrorists in 2006. -Obama and Coburn Passed A Bill Creating A “Google-like” Database For The Public To Search Details About Federal Funding Awards. -Obama Passed Law Ensuring That Wounded Veterans Recovering In Military Hospitals Do Not Have To Pay For Their Meals Or Phone Calls To Family Members in 2005. -Obama Proposals Providing Improvements In Health Care For Recovering Soldiers Were Passed Into Law, Including Requirements For Post-Deployment Mental Health Screenings And National Study On The Needs Of Iraq War Veterans. -In 2007 Obama Worked With Republicans To Pass Legislation, Which Became Law, Improving And Increasing Services For Homeless Veterans. -Obama Passed Bipartisan Legislation That Expanded Health Care Coverage To 154,000 Residents, Including 70,000 Children. -Obama Passed A Bill Creating $100 Million Earned Income Tax Credit as a member of the Minority Party in the Illinois Senate. - In 1999 Obama passed near-unanimous Death Penalty Overhaul Package. Not too shabby for a 'do-nothing' senator from a state with a few more people than Alaska.
Posted 07:11 PM, 09/04/2008
noel711
How many times has Bush used the veto? According to factcheck.org.. "According to the U.S. Senate, George W. Bush has issued nine vetoes,"
Posted 07:29 PM, 09/04/2008
noel711
It's hard to follow some of these comments because the threads are out of sequence, but I shall try: Tom, your comment in regards to my working for a large organization; I was referring to Palin's role as Mayor of Wasilla, NOT as governor of Alaska, with its billion dollar budget. Yes, I work for a large organization but not a state. And how do we define 'executive experience'? Is president of the local women's garden club enough? Does being the president of the Harvard Law Review not confer executive experience? Too many fuzzy lines... jwad56- You cite Fox as a credible source? No comment necessary. Xi Sah- Do you know what Juneteeth refers to? Not something to poke fun at if you know American history.
Posted 07:43 PM, 09/04/2008
ObamaHATER
"Aside from the fact that Palin didn't bother to define what she meant by "victory," had you heard this news anywhere else? I certainly hadn't. Did Gen. David Petraeus get that memo?"-dumb liberal. TomWISE made some great points about Anbar providence, and I would remind Polman (because it's been 3 weeks) that a deal has been reached to pull out in 3 years. How un-american are liberals that they cannot even admit to the country, the troops, and the world that all of the effort us and our allies have endured has not been in vain. This is an outrage. No quickly slapped on flag pins will fool me into believing the dems are patriotic.
Posted 07:44 PM, 09/04/2008
bbrodyblue
Dear Tom, You and the other idiotic, stupidity spewing republican conservative nitwits sicken me. You guys never let the facts get in the way of your own stink. In fact, Harry Truman was Roosevelt's third choice behind Jimmy Byrnes and William O Douglas. Byrnes was ruled out because he was a South Carolinian segregationist; Douglas was ruled out due to political experience. Truman was chosen by the democratic chiefs due to his outlook on lawful equality for blacks and the fact that he was not a liberal democrat (as opposed to Henry Wallace and Douglas). In addition, FDR dealt w/ Truman when he was the head of the Truman commission and after Truman was reelected over Stark in the 1940 Missouri Senatorial Campaign. Finally, would it be so difficult for you, TOM, to have a liitle some semblancve of objectivity. Because frankly, Palin's abuse of the truth related to the bridge to nowhere, IRAQ and her own looming ethics abuse of power problem is almost as troubling as McCain's choice of someone so inexperienced to be a heartbeat away from the presidency.
Posted 07:55 PM, 09/04/2008
jwad56
noel711 don't get in the way of yourself. If you decided to check the link instead of just spewing your talking points you would see they were Obama's own words. I guess you get all your "news" from Olbermann right?
Posted 08:09 PM, 09/04/2008
mike l
Sorry hater, but you are wrong. No agreement has been reached to pull out within three years. Iraqis want a lot shorter time, along the lines of Obama's 16 months. Maliki even said so, in the news, on film, on all the stations. Mccain said, "He wouldn't say that." Guess he doesn't watch the news. BTW, he ridiculed Obama when he said he woud go after bin laden in Pakistan if that country woud not. mccain said nothing when our drone took out an al qaida camp and killed an obl deputy. He also didn't say anything about the combined US-Afghan raid into Pakistan the other day that took out a terrorist camp. Mr. Tough Guy is a wuss. Speaks loudly, does nothing. I guess the gates of hell aren't in Pakistan because mccain doesn't want to go there, but he has a plan to capture obl. Yeah, he's going to leave a dialysis machine on the border to smoke obl out. Obama right on foreign policy. mccain totally wrong. Look it up.
Posted 08:14 PM, 09/04/2008
ObamaHATER
I actually had the 3 yr agreement on minimize when you posted Mike.//www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/2556205/US-troops-to-pull-out-of-Iraq-in-three-years.html::::::This is not the first time that American troops has gone into Pakistan or dropped the bombs as you noted. The difference is that Pres. Bush doesn't publicize it to the world and increase political pressure on whoever is leading Pakistan. That is sloppy policy Mike.
Posted 08:36 PM, 09/04/2008
ObamaHATER
Am I the only one that is sick of meeting the Palin's? I really don't care about families or scantily clad daughters or gum chewing loverboys. The media needs to put these people away, and start focusing. This is about a country's future.
Posted 09:11 PM, 09/04/2008
liberal
The attempt to quantify and evaluate a candidate's "experience" is one of the silliest exercises of the many silly exercises that bloggers waste words on. Anybody who has any life experience knows that an "experienced" boss or any kind of leader can be a complete turkey, while a new and untried leader can be a breath of fresh air that completely revitalizes the organization. The quality of the individual is what matters, not how long he or she has been in harness.
Posted 10:04 PM, 09/04/2008
gee1971
the argument continually being raised during this convention re. winning or losing the war is ridiculous. How do you win a war that was justified by lies, exagerations and mistakes. There is no winner. And to think that these snapshots in time like the handover of Anbar are any real indication or success or failure is ridiculous. Whether you support or criticize the war, the outome will not be defined for years if not decades. Did we win the cold war? Does your answer change if russia continues to regress toward communism? The Bottom line, is Obama is right war, is the last resort, ideological wars are not fought with guns unless they are absolutely necessary, ie. invasion or viloent aggression, because ultimatley these ideas require constant and infinite attention and require constant diplomatic attention. So how do you measure the success of the war? I think that answer is determing if the same outcome couold have been achieved wihtout invasion and the cost of American lives and American billions? And because all of the rational for the war, every justication that was presented was incorrect, my feeling is the answer is no. It's not about wanting to lose a war or being weak, it's evaluating the objective as it was sold to the American people.
Posted 11:02 PM, 09/04/2008
ModerateMarge
I actually made up my mind when McCain chose Palin as his VP candidate that I was NOT going R this year. Reason 1 - Palin is for teaching creationism in schools. This is something best taught by the church especially since the R's say the schools dont teach reading and writing and arithmetic well. Reason 2 - her scant record and the R's failure to come clean on it - for the bridge to nowhere until she was against it among other things. This woman was not vetted and we have all seen what 8 years of shooting from the hip governance brings.
Posted 11:27 PM, 09/04/2008
Djoko Pritza
John wasn't wearing a flag pin. Unpatriotic?
Posted 11:29 PM, 09/04/2008
still_independent
McCain just finished. They should have let Palin speak again instead...He spent the first part of the speech talking only about Palin, which was kind of wierd. Then he spent the next part stating prototypical "virtues" - I'm for lower taxes, lower spending, school choice, etc. He then spoke as if the place was packed with 17,000 white second graders - "I'll lower taxes, he'll raise them...I'll cut spending, he'll increase spending...". He only gave two actual specifics - he'll veto bills w/ pork barrel spending, and drill for oil. Finally, he got to the POW story, which is compelling, except it's the 105th time I've heard him tell it. I want to like the guy, and his early life is inspiring on a personal level, but he did nothing to help cement my vote.
Posted 11:32 PM, 09/04/2008
hartpall
Would you vote for W. again? This year’s election brings to mind a well-known saying: fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. But what do you say when you are fooled a third time? My recommendation is don’t make the mistake and you won’t have to ask the question!
Posted 12:26 AM, 09/05/2008
ObamaHATER
DJ is that your well thought out, profound question? Pretty silly isn't it? I'll explain it to you one more time. The flag pin came up after 9/11 when all of the senators were wearing them. Your messiah, DJ, stated that he refused to wear one. It's funny because right around then, he was listening to his racist reverend speaking about chicken dinners roosting. Everyone in the world was either feeling American pride or pitying our situation except the annointed one and his loony church of radicals, deranged, and evil dictator sympathizers. Keep in mind that he stayed in that church for 7 more yrs after that sermon. That spoke volumes about your candidate DJ. How do you reconcile voting for a man who, if terrorist attack our country, would obtain council from radicals that support the terrorist's causes? Never forget 9/11 and those who blamed America for it!
Posted 12:35 AM, 09/05/2008
ModerateMarge
Dear ObamaHater, As we read your rambles here all we can DO IS FEEL SORRY FOR YOU. At this point despite some misgivings Obama has my vote. I had looked forward to some INTELLIGENT back and forth and am tired of the same shrill baseless attacks on the Democratic ticket instead.
Posted 12:37 AM, 09/05/2008
Djoko Pritza
Hey, Hater, that was a joke. Wasn't it you the other day who was chiding the "dumb libs" for not having a sense of humor? Well, the laughs on you, pal.
Posted 12:42 AM, 09/05/2008
Djoko Pritza
My heart goes out to McCain. He was a truly courageous soldier. He handled his torture with noble bravery. But his time has passed. It's sad. He has had to change most of his honest postions to win the nomination of a corrupt party. He is really a Democrat. If he had accepted Kerry's offer to be his VP, McCain might be the Democratic nominee today.
Posted 12:54 AM, 09/05/2008
yobill626
HATER: DP is right. For someone who posts crazy over-the-top remarks on a regular basis, you're the last guy to get to complain. I do find myself agreeing (God help me) with your "I'm sick of the seeing the Palin kids". How many times are they going to bring that poor baby into packed convention halls? Over the last two weeks of watching camera pans of filled convention centers, I didn't see any other people bring a four month old baby. Nobody can tell me that infant wasn't being used as a prop.
Posted 12:59 AM, 09/05/2008
ObamaHATER
I'm sure LARGEMARGE that you would like to get past the "baseless" (except the church was selling videos of the sermon at its store) charges that your candidate is unamerican. Character counts LARGE. Tonight you were reminded that one candidate was serving his country honorably while yours was serving a corrupt voting registration group as a "community organizer", followed by funneling money to slum lords. Palin was the final straw huh? So a woman who has 5 children, and who had zero help getting to where she is today, doesn't inspire you one bit right? Creationism, that's evil, yeah to an elitist. So I guess yeah Obama is your guy. You can find whatever reasons you like to not vote for McCain/Palin, but please don't try to rationalize them with us. Who cares.
Posted 01:15 AM, 09/05/2008
ObamaHATER
I actually agree with you YoBill( I feel numbness in my left arm). Bringing in a baby with down syndrome into a crowded, loud convention center seems odd and a little unwise to me.
Posted 01:18 AM, 09/05/2008
yobill626
I'm impressed with McCain's speech. He basically said that even though "the other Republicans" have done a terrible job, he was the Republican we need to make it right. Although he didn't really claim to be all that much of a Republican. Trust him, he said. Then he finished with (what I thought) was a very touching recount of his captivity. As far as politcal strategy & gamesmanship goes, it's a ballsy position to take. Its obvious by this strategy & the half a**ed thought process he used to pick Palin, a McCain presidency will be one where he holds his Kitchen Cabinet meetings with Lieberman & Graham at a black jack table in Vegas.
Posted 01:35 AM, 09/05/2008
puttinonthefoil
Actually, given the fact that I have heard more praise from the "liberal" MSM about Palin's speech than Obama's or Biden's(perhaps, because she is a novelty), Polman is doing good work. To address a critique about Obama. He runs on change, and then picks Biden. Hypocrisy no doubt. But, McCain. The maverick. The man who has his own coffee mug on the Daily Show, he picks, to use Jeffa's words, a "Fundamentalist". Which of course Palin is - her stances we already know, but go run up some of her faith quotes to back it up. McCain won the pirmaries on the strenght of independents, so what does he do? He gives them the stiff middle finger with his VP nod! I hoped better from him. But hey, country first, right? And JeffA stole the thunder again - folks, I'm sorry, but an empty suit who needs to read from a telemprompter does not become President of Harvard Law Review. I don't think people understand what an accomplishement that is and the intellecutual rigor it requires... and hey, Obama didn't even need daddy for it. This is no McCain, no Bush, no Kerry. He is smart.
Posted 01:35 AM, 09/05/2008
ObamaHATER
" Its obvious by this strategy & the half a**ed thought process he used to pick Palin, a McCain presidency will be one where he holds his Kitchen Cabinet meetings with Lieberman & Graham at a black jack table in Vegas."-Yobill. Your comment was sane all up until then. Unless you have noticed, Palin has re-energized the base. I listen to liberal radio at night, and there are PLENTY of Hillary supporters/ converted McCain supporters. They feel if they allow the biased media, and Obama supporters to belittle Palin for her lack of ability to raise a family while leading a nation, that would bring the same assualt to the next female candidate. And then Hillary said this: "While [the McCain-Palin] policies would take America in the wrong direction, Governor Palin will add an important new voice to the debate."
Posted 01:42 AM, 09/05/2008
yobill626
Heck, its dumb to bring a baby there withOUT Downs. P-diddy also accurately pegged the old boyfriend/new fiance as a nitwit before his unveiling --- and how can he not be? --- he's only 18. Its obviously a culture gap that I just don't get. Your 17 year old daughter tells you she's pregnant --- a HUGE error in judgement by a single 17 year old. You then double the mistake by making/allowing them to get married?
Posted 01:53 AM, 09/05/2008
ObamaHATER
Not my post, but I like it: We do not know how intelligent Obama is. We do not know his SAT or LSAT scores. He was probably an affirmative action enrolee at Harvard Law. He was also probably put on the Law Review as affrirmative action. This would have been done by the faculty. There are approximately 50 students on the Law Review and they vote for the President. Esrich's comment that he was selected on merit implies that he was selected by the faculty which is not the case. In an election with 16 candidates all with high egos, it is entirely possible to see how Obama may have become the consensus pick because the truly academically talented cancelled each other out. It is interesting that there are a lot of glowing quotes from people 18 years after the fact. Not one contemporaneously recorded accolade. The President of the Law Review, which had 50 members, is essentially a managerial position. The attempt to clothe Obama with scholarship is laughable. The fact is that is U.S. history Obama may well be the only Editor of a major law review who has never published a single article. For those in the legal profession, this is absolutely amazing. No wonder he did not join a major law firm. Instead he wound up doing routine real estate work for a slum lord. Of course, in Chicago, there are major law firms that he could have joined. But most people in the know, know that they are just influence peddling mills that put in the fix with the machine controlled city and county. There is some question about the scholarship of the books Obama did write. In one of them, he wrote about someone and that someone and his friends and acquaintances challenged Obama's statements and Obama was forced to say that he had made "composite characters". In other words, he had just faked it.
Posted 01:54 AM, 09/05/2008
yobill626
HATER: Palin has re-energized the base. Her social views (to me) are horrendous, but she has great skills & (as I mentioned yesterday) has a great future (win or lose) in the party if she makes it through the GE. My issue is NOT with her, but rather how McCain appears to make decisions. Just because it seems like he lucked out with this decision doesn't mean that somewhere along the line this poor process won't come back to bite him (& us) in the butt. I'm as sick as I can be with having a President who doesn't know how to go about making thoughtful decisions.
Posted 02:12 AM, 09/05/2008
yobill626
HATER: ...another lost post... My issue is NOT with Palin. I don't like her social positions, but I'm not part of that base. If she makes it through the GE, she has a great future in the party, win or lose. My problem is with HOW McCain came about to pick her. Seems to have pulled it out of his butt. Just because today it looks like it may work out for him, doesn't mean its good. I'm as sick as I can can be with Presidents who make their decisions in this way. How many of Bush's fiascos were later discovered to be poorly thought through?
Posted 02:13 AM, 09/05/2008
puttinonthefoil
Well, Hater, I think the moniker gives away your partiality to your quoted post, which I bet you have saved in a .txt file, ready for when it is needed. If you go back and read it what you copied, you will realize that the O.P. gave 100% speculative spin on Obama's accolades. "affirmative action" "not merit based" etc. All of which cannot be verified. It's a partisan post, plain and simple, which is why you love it so dearly. It does not take away from his accomplishments nor his intelligence in the slightest. Law was something he actually taught, and not at Podunk U., but U. Chicago. You cannot be a moron to do that (but you can be POTUS). Now, if you want to actually debate issues, you can stand on the fact that he did not publish anything, and we can discuss why, because that is an interesting issue. But the history of your posts suggests that you do not care to do that, and I would be indulging in criticizing Obama with you, which I am happy to do, however you never criticize McCain, so why would I want to do that? And to think, the right wingers here talk about messiah. jeez.
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Posted 11:34 AM, 09/05/2008
Gibba Mang
Palin a reformer? lol...is that what they call a mayor who increases debt and taxes? When Palin became Mayor of Wasilla, the town had 0 debt. When she left they were 22 million in debt. Government expendatures increased over 30% while taxes increased almost 40%. No wonder she is hiding back in Alaska, she can't answer to her record.
Posted 01:06 PM, 09/05/2008
MdeanL
With all do respect ObamaHater you just buy into so much propoganda. You just spout off the party lines and slogans. Think for yourself. Your obsessing over a pin that is voluntary to wear. I didnt know wearing a little metal accessory was the true test of ones patriotism, like actions and beliefs dont mean anything. Your views on Obama and 9-11 are completely baseless. Look into the issuse for yourself dont just spout off what each side accuses the other of because its not true dem or rep its all just basely accusing and name calling. Before you accuse Obama of being where he is due to affirmative action you might want to have proof. And im not and Obama defender im still undecided.
Posted 05:16 PM, 09/05/2008
JimR
Hater "He was probably an affirmative action enrolee at Harvard Law." George Bush was probably a legacy enrolee at grad school.He certainly didn't get past the door without the help of his family name. Give me a break!
Posted 02:15 AM, 09/06/2008
ObamaHATER
JimR- Keep in mind Obama's father went to Harvard before him. Republicans don't harp on this because they are not as petty as dems.
Posted 08:12 PM, 09/06/2008
p-diddy
You dummies, Obama was a student who excelled. You don't teach constitutional law at the University of Chicago without academic credentials.
About Dick Polman

Cited by the Columbia Journalism Review as one of the nation's top political reporters, and lauded by the ABC News political website as "one of the finest political journalists of his generation," Dick Polman is a national political columnist at the Philadelphia Inquirer. He is on the full-time faculty at the University of Pennsylvania, as "writer in residence." Dick has been a frequent guest on C-Span, MSNBC, CNN, NPR and the BBC. He covered the 1992, 1996, 2000, and 2004 presidential campaigns.

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