Until last night, the conventional wisdom about John McCain was that he bestrode “town hall” meetings like a conqueror, that he was loose and spontaneous and likable and witty. And so he usually was. The difference this time, however, was that he had to share the stage with Barack Obama, and at the end of 90 minutes, McCain was no longer the master of his domain.
McCain’s performance was perfectly serviceable, but that wasn’t good enough. Given the crystallizing fundamentals of this campaign, he needed to contrive a spectacular moment of contrast during the second presidential debate, something that would elevate him and diminish Obama, something that would change the basic story line. He failed to do that. As such, he failed to reverse his apparently waning political prospects.
There was nothing particularly memorable about this debate – both candidates spent much of their time repeating old arguments, and trading familiar ripostes – and that alone helps Obama. He was ahead before the debate began, as evidenced by all the national and state battleground polls, and so he remains.
As I mentioned here on Monday, voters at this point seem poised to oust the Republicans from the White House, seeking only to be reassured that Obama is not an unacceptable risk. The “town hall” debate has apparently reassured them further. McCain works the room just fine when he’s alone, but apparently comes off second best when Obama is around.
So say the voters, anyway. An overnight poll, by CNN and the Opinion Research Corp., has delivered a strong verdict: 54 percent of debate-watchers said that Obama won; only 30 percent chose McCain. Among those who identified themselves as independents, the spread was 54 to 28 percent. On the question of which candidate seemed more likable, the debate-watchers chose Obama by 65 to 28 percent. McCain fans would probably attribute that result to Obama’s “celebrity,” but this stat is less easily dismissed: 54 percent of debate-watchers said that Obama came off as the “stronger leader” with only 43 percent choosing McCain.
It’s impossible to know which debate exchanges triggered those verdicts. But whatever it is that McCain is doing, it’s clearly not working. His familiar attack lines don’t seem to be moving many votes. Tagging Obama as a “liberal” who “wants to raise taxes” – that isn’t working. Claiming that Obama has already voted “94 times” to raise taxes isn’t working. Claiming that Obama was in the pocket of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac – that isn’t working.
It should be noted, yet again, that many of McCain’s attack lines are misleading or worse. Indeed, it’s tragic that a politician who talks to much about “honor” would so often dishonor himself by reciting the same lies over and over. But such is the case when defeat looms and desperation takes hold. I’ve deconstructed the “94 times” lie before, and won’t take up space doing it again. The line about Obama wanting to “raise taxes” is a rank distortion, since Obama mainly wants to cancel the Bush tax cuts for people making $250,000 or more.
As for the line about Obama being a lefty ideologue, here’s what McCain said last night: “Go to some of these organizations that are the watchdogs of what we do, like the Citizens Against Government Waste or the National Taxpayers Union…and you know what you’ll find? (Obama has) the most liberal, big-spending record in the United States Senate.” But McCain lied. When you actually check out the National Taxpayers Union, you discover that 12 senators received worse ratings than Obama in 2007, and 31 senators received worse ratings in 2006. And when you check out Citizens Against Government Waste, you find that 47 senators received worse ratings than Obama in 2007…including – and this is my favorite factoid – the senator from Connecticut and close McCain buddy, Joseph I. Lieberman.
McCain’s efforts to tie Obama to Fannie and Freddie were particularly misleading. He said at one point that Obama is the second-highest recipient of Fannie and Freddie campaign donations of any senator “in history.” That’s basically true (the donations total $126,349), although, by some measurements, Obama ranks third. But what McCain forgot to mention was that his own campaign manager, Rick Davis, was on the hook to Fannie and Freddie for five years, that Davis was paid nearly $2 million to lobby against stricter regulations, and that Davis’ lobbying firm was receiving $15,000 a month from Freddie until this August.
But I digress. Most swing voters are not going to do the fact-checking spadework. McCain is imperiled not because these voters doubt the veracity of his charges, but because they’re inclined to simply tune out his charges. His biggest problem is not his credibility, but the party label he shares with George W. Bush.
The economy is in the tank for many reasons, but most voters know by now that Bush inherited a healthy budget surplus and that he has since driven us deep into deficit ($438 billion; Obama rounded it up last night to half a trillion). To many voters, that looks a lot like serious fiscal mismanagement. Combine that with the common perception of the Republicans as the party of business, free markets, and deregulation…and then suddenly McCain’s supposed “town hall” prowess seems an illusion. And his railings against congressional earmarks (as he did again last night) strike many voters as off point, even if they don’t actually know that earmarks are a mere one percent of all federal spending.
McCain is also stuck with the Bush brand on Iraq. Most Americans have long concluded that the U.S. invasion was a mistake, so Obama did himself no harm last night by reminding Americans that McCain had urged the invasion. After McCain told a questioner that Obama "does not understand our national security challenges," Obama fired back: "I don't understand how we ended up invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, while Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are setting up base camps and safe havens to train terrorists to attack us. That was Senator McCain's judgment and it was the wrong judgment. When Senator McCain was cheerleading the president to go into Iraq, he suggested it was going to be quick and easy, we'd be greeted as liberators. That was the wrong judgment, and it's been costly to us," in terms of the strain on the domestic economy.
But perhaps the moment that best epitomized McCain's plight occurred early in the evening. Clearly hoping to get some kind of traction on the economy, he surprised everybody by announcing that, as president, he would order the U.S. treasury secretary to "buy up the bad home loan mortgages in America," and replace them with more affordable loans. The very notion that a Republican candidate would propose such a big-government solution...what better proof can there be that the GOP free-market ethos is out of step with the '08 zeitgeist? I would bet, however, that many GOP conservative voters were aghast to hear McCain propose a new burden on taxpayers, although, if it's any consolation to them, McCain characteristically failed to fill in the nuances of his proposal during the remaining 80 minutes. After all, he has already admitted that economics aren't his strong suit.
The public seems to agree with that admission. A post-debate poll, sponsored by CBS News and Knowledge Networks, reported that 68 percent of uncommitted voters trust Obama to make the right decisions on the economy, while 31 percent do not. By contrast, only 48 percent trust McCain on this policy front, while 51 percent do not.
Richard Viguerie, one of the founders of the modern conservative movement, offered this assessment when the debate ended: “For John McCain, the opportunities to win this election are dwindling down to a precious few.” That sounds about right.
Posted by Dick Polman @ 7:27 AM
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108 comments
Big loser last night was Brokaw, who did a horrible job picking the questions and moderating. I heard one pundit refer to the debate format as a podium debate posing as a town hall.
I have to agree that a lot of the questions were lame or poorly phrased. I was surprised at how uncomfortable McCain looked a lot of the time - he did do well in addressing individual voters personally, but I don't think anyone changed their vote just because he shook hands with the CPO. And, he did have an unfortunate resemblance in both voice and appearance to Grandpa Simpson...that will not help him either.
McCain was a gentleman, Obama was defensive. Obama sounded like confused and rambling on Pakistan. Obama couldn't play by the debtate rules, which made him look like a baby. Polman's one-sided distorted view is a reason why Inky is losing readers.
Talk is cheap, but Obama is good at that. By way of example, remember 2 years ago when the dems took back Congress all the things they were going to change? Pelosi and her crew have done nothing. Is American better or worse then 2 years ago? The Dems even had the worst and weakess President of may be all time to push around and they still did nothing. If elected, Obama will follow Pelosi and also be all talk and no action.
Are McCain supporters going to swallow their pride and stand behind Obama when he becomes president in 27 days? Or are you going to sit back and hope he fails? How strong will your patriotism be? Get on board for the next 8 years people and judge him appropriately along the way. That's right, I said "8". Go O
Hey CD75, the President is a Rep and he holds the veto pen. Remember? The Senate also has rules that allows a 40+ minority to block anything a Dem majority does. Remember? Oh, sorry, am I letting facts get in the way?
I think McCain has @ 1 more week to do something to turn this around --- or luck into something happening on a national scale. Based on the history of almost every election, we're reaching the point where voters' opinions are solidifying. Bill Maher has joked that Obama needs to do something like say, "Honky, puh-leeze". Its clearly obvious to me that Obama is just too even keeled & composed to say something stupid at the next debate --- even if McCain provokes him when he comes out looking for blood. Something BIG has to happen VERY, VERY soon.
Anon: Blaming Bush for Pelosi's and the Democrat Congress' failures is fascinating. You are making my ponint for me. The Dems cannot blame Bush for everything, including their own conduct, or lack thereof. That is called an absence of leadership and why America should be wary of Obama.
I watched the debate with anopen mind last night and McCain strikes me as out of touch and reckless. His continued use of the phrase "my friends" came off as phoney and patronizing. McCain didn't do enough to change undecides last night. It's over for McCain.
CD75: So Bush is in charge during a time when Executive powers have never been stronger & the Dems spend the last 2 years with the thinniest of majorities, & its their fault? How thin was their majority? It was rested with Joe Lieberman. Joe Leiberman! Based on that alone, almost anything in the foreign policy area was off the table. Heck, one Dem (Johnson - SD) couldn't even come to work for 6 months. Yeah, the Dems really let us down...
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Lynette from Phila: McCain needed to articulate a plan that would get the economy going again and he didn't - he proposed an option that already exists: buying up everyone's mortgage? You think voters are going to accept that from a Republican, whose failed policies over the last 8 years have helped to get us into this mess? The economy isn't going to suddenly rebound by Nov 4th and more and more voters, not less, are going to feel the negative impact of it. People will continue to lose their jobs (at 4 million unemployed - does anyone not know someone who is out of work or looking?) If you add in any other of the concerns of voters (Health Care, Iraq, Energy costs, Jobs), McCain still not gain voters on these issues, as demonstrated by his incoherent performance last night. For better or for worse the economy is going to be the #1 thing on voters minds when they go to the polls on Nov 4th and an overwhelming majority of those polled trust Obama to better handle economy. Only a very small fraction of voters on either side care about the fringe issue of "associations". Couple that with voter apathy to smear campaigns and is impossible to deny that McCain no longer has a chance to be elected, fairly.
Pelosi and the dem congress said 2 years ago they would take back America from the "evil" and corrupt repubs. Can anyone tell me what they have done? Are we better or worse then 2 years ago? Talk is cheap, thus be scared of Obama.
yobill626: Just an FYI - we ignore CD75 around here.
For obvious reasons.
McClain experiences stress syndrome when put under pressure. His answers wander, his language takes a snide edge, his perception the challenges in front of America become dangerous boogie-men from whom only he can save us. As again McClain charged the hill, he offered no strategic plan. How will tax cuts for the weathy increase the purchasing power of the middle class? How will buying up mortgages add jobs? How will a ten year lag time in offshore drilling help our energy dependence in the immediate future? States regulate power plants--how will McClain gain approval from state regulatory agencies to build and operate nuclear power plants? Won't straight talk to Pakistan compell the country to more likely cooperate in seizing terrorists? Under McClain's policy, won't insurance companies cherry-pick states with favorable industry rules to make the health care mess even worse? Sure, he served. But what is John McClain serving up now? Where are the details of his plans? How come so many of his ideas just don't add up?
tom, I agree that Brokaw was horrible and was the real loser last night. But it was expected that he'd perform that was since he declared himself NBC's liaison to the McCain campaign. He should have stayed in retirement, because that tarnished his image, I feel.
Well, it's the day after and we'll see if McCain-Palin continue to try to smear Obama, to full force rejection from those not already voting for McCain. That tactic is only going to totally destroy McCain's political legacy, it will deservingly send Palin back into political obscurity and retirement in 2 years.
It's almost sad to see this dottering old man lose what little self-respect he had. Can't even shake hands at the end, let alone a complete inability to look Obama in the eyes? What a petulant little man. Thank god it appears that this country will avoid electing another embarrassment.
The dems and ACORN are under investigation for voter fraud in Nevada. You don't see repubs committing such voter fraud. No wonder the dems did not want a law that voters bring I.D. to the booth. You can't trust all those media reports that all these new dems are being registerd, unless you consider voter fraud as new registrations.
The biggest loser last night (and for the last month for that mattter) was the Republican party. The failed economic policies of the GOP dating back to the Reagan era 'of getting government out of the way' so that business could 'do what business does best' have come home to roost. Now we see what happens when we leave business alone unregulated.......corruption, greed, & chaos. All Americans suffer for the sins of not just of the CEO's who drove their companies into the ground by engaging in risky behavior, but for a party that favors big business and the CEO's at the expense of the 'little guy' - "Joe Sixpack", or whatever you want to call the average guy. Yes, I could see the Republicans not only losing the White House, but plenty of seats in Congress as well, as Americans wake up to the fact that the GOP never had their best interests at heart.
CD75 asks what the Dems have done in the last two years.
We'll start a list of what they've done by citing the raising the federal minimum wage and move quickly to Jim Webb's veterans bill, both of which were opposed by Bush. (And of course John McCain also opposed the veterans bill. Well done, senator. Well done.) Feel free to add on. The rants of the failing GOP are humorous indeed.
Yesterday's debate was like watching Denzel Washington (smooth, suave, even keel) vs. Danny DeVito as the Penguin.
Sully64: Wow! These are the best 2 things in over 700 days that you can list from the dem Congress? You prove my point.
Did you see the dems in Tenn. hacked into Palin's e-mail? Can we really trust the dems????
That debate was horrible for McCain. Obama wasn't particularly interested in moving off of talking points nor was he interested in striking a fatal blow, which left McCain on the attack... which probably would've been effective if he didn't keep shooting himself in the foot. Hair plugs? Going after Brokaw? "That one"? The wife and I were laughing hysterically at Obama's "what is this guy talking about?" face. And then he brought up Meg Whitman. Sure, bring up a woman who fell asleep at the wheel and let the super successful eBay get throttled by Amazon and Google. Why not bring up "golden parachute" Carly Fiorina while you're at it, Senator?
sully64: See the rule we adhere to about the pathetic CD75 ...
CD75, you are absolutely delusional with your GOP propaganda. Wake up and look around you. The country is in an uproar and is poised to throw the GOP out of power. After 8 years, it is look overdue. Based on his body language, even McCain knows his time is up.
Since there was very little new substance introduced last night, one must judge style. I think McCain looked a little old and stiff, and I thought he seemed bitter at times. Obama did nothing spectacular, though I chuckled at the "wheel fell off" of the Straight Talk Express line. Their exchange over walking/talking "softly" was interesting to say the least, and I don't think it worked out for McCain very well. Frankly, I found it all a little boring and stale. I am waiting for one candidate to be straight with a tough question. Neither of them ever are. Obama tried a little with the "prioritize health care/energy/entitlement" issue, and McCain immediately skewered him with the fantasy land, oh yeah, we'll get it all done at once. These dudes need to level with the American people about the sorry shape we are in, otherwise it just sounds like commercial campaigning. It would be nice to see some honesty when those tough questions about sacrifice/priority come around.
If the media spent any time checking him out,
Hillary would be our nominee.
CHECK OUT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiEWCnpNnBQ&NR=1
Let's see, Obama is still losing about as many Hillary
supporters as in June. He is losing the over 65 vote-who
turn out big time. Yeah, I guess he's up.
Brokaw was fine. He was a little awkward, but that's just style. The questions were decent and I don't really care if he allowed the candidates to run over their allotted speaking times a little. I thought the direct question about ignoring Pakistan's sovereignty was a good one. Neither candidate would answer this, because neither wants to admit that American power in the region is limited. But Obama certainly did well to remind voters that McCain voted to authorize the Iraq invasion.
michaelskristin: I foyu read throug the posts on Polman's column, you'll see that we who support Obama and use the facts can handily wipe the floor with your type, who come here posting the same debunked misinformation and GOP propaganda and lies every day. You'll also see that those who get the smack down have slunk away ... good luck to you.
Obama has certainly improved his debating skills and I thought the format suited him quite well. He appears much more engaged while McCain is talking and made a better effort to target his answers to the audience, as the format dictates. His inability to mask his contempt for Obama just doesn't come across well, period. Clinton had exactly the same problem, but lucky for her, Obama hadn't figured out how to debate yet.
McCain should be embarrassed about last night but I am starting to think he is losing it as the election draws nearer. The was angry, snarky, disrespectful and unprofessional. What really had be stunned was that some of the morons in the focus groups shown on the various networks couldnt even say they had heard anything that would help them make a decision. On ABC all of the McCain supporting college students claimed McCain's performance only solidified their support. What? Anyone who has been around for as long as McCain and who has been making a big deal about town hall meeting should've done a better job. His only focus was on getting in his Obama attack lines. The press is so desperate to show they arent partial to Obama that they actually pretended McCain did an OK job simply because he made eye contact with that veteran towards the end. Everyone said he seemed to "connect" with the audience better. Who cares? He lied through half the debate and refused to acknowledge Obama by name or look at him. That's amazing considering he makes such fuss about his bipartisanship.
Obama is lucky to have blind followers. He said last night:
1) reduce taxes for 95% of all Americans
2) preserve social security "as is"
3) reduce the deficit
4) increase education spending
5) create universal healthcare
6) use federal dollars to create green jobs (whatever that is)
If you actually beleive Obama can do all that (i.e. say anything to win), I have a bridge I want to sell ya. If only McCain was so lucky to have such "intelligent" followers.
CD75 - "the democrats" didn't hack into Palin's email, a 20 year old kid who is the son of a "democrat" did. Perhaps if the Governor had used her state email system to conduct the work of her office as is required, a college student wouldn't have been able to hack into it. Funny how that works. Also, just because you put "thus" in a sentence doesn't make it a cogent argument.
JaketheSnake, I believe Michael Myers as Dr. Evil is also a pretty accurate description!
BTW, isnt McCain's new (old) proposal about buying up mortgages an example of the big government type stuff he and Palin supposedly hate? I don't get it. The hyprocrisy of a desperate politician is always something to behold. McCain is against any government interference in healthcare and believes the government should stay out of people's lives and yet he wants to spend $300B to buy up bad mortgages. If Obama had proposed that McCain/Palin would have jumped all over him and called him all kinds of variations of "big spending liberal". BTW, I didnt hear McCain explain how he would pay for his new leftish mortgage bailout program. And yet he made a big deal about Obama not saying how much people would be fined. Throughout the night it seemed like McCain was talking to (or at) Obama and Obama was talking to the people. I also thought leaving the stage a few minutes after the debate was a classy move by McCain. He sure is a Town Hall master if I have ever seen one. Way to connect with the people.
agree tom. those questions answered nothing about retirement and trusting the government again. soft questions. tom brokaw tried the tough guy routine in making them stick to their time. mccain did terrible as did barry. very disappointing. maybe the next and last one will give us those long awaited answers
CD75 - I will ignore you from here on, but trying to blame the Dem congress is perfect neo-con thinking: zero accountability. To use a Navy reference, if the captain of a ship lets a subordinate run aground, it's the captain who loses his career. In this administration, it's blame and shame, never any self-culpability.
Simple facts:
1) Polman is biased toward Obama.
2)Obama is inexperienced; 4 years ago he wasn't even on the national stage.
3) Obama has a big ego. How dare he think he is suited to be president after just 2 years in the Senate and no executive experience! Why would he feel the need to write not one but 2 autobiographies before he is even 44 years old?! The man is just too full of himself.
4) McCain is not the best choice either, but at least he has the experience needed by the leader of the free world.
Anyone who says McCain won that debate needs to put their bias aside, and get real. Where are all you McCain supporters, certainly are not many in Philly where I am at, live, work. Phillyburbs.com is where you belong.
I just took a gander at the Philly news and other mainstream press headlines on line. ALL news articles are negative on McCain (CNN has an article that McCain's health is an issue despite McCain releasing his medical data from 2000 and his doctors saying he is fine. Obama, according to the report, released a one page summary to the press regarding his health). All the Obama reports are positive. Every last one of them. WOW! How does Superman do it? Don;t believe me? Take three minutes to check out CNN, ABC, this website, and other MS press sites. Now, come on folks. The press has preordained this man to be president and they will denigrate McCain until they convince enough people he is horrible (despite the latest Zogy poll showing the race dead even). Then the press get their panties in a bunch when legitimate questions are asked about Obama's relationship to self-admitted terrorist Ayers. Why? Can you imagine if McCain had a beer with David Duke, let alone had David Duke START McCain's political career? The press would be running around trying to get answers like their hair was on fire. I think the election is be alot closer than the press says it is. And LL_Rittenhouse, why not read your history regarding this financial mess. It was the Clinton Administration that threatened law suits if banks did not lend to people with poor credit. Want to elect America's first Socialist president? Knock yourself out. America is greater than any vainglorious and inept man that is elected president (but hey, at least the fawning press love him!).
Anybody who believes John McCain and the GOP are going to buy your mortgage out, raise your hand. And how would he pay for it, especially with $300 billion in ADDITIONAL tax breaks for the richest 1% and giant corporations? Maybe he could continue to chip away at Medicare, which he intends to do to fund his insane healthcare program, which penalizes small businesses and individuals with no healthcare and rewards big insurance companies (since the "tax rebate" is paid directly to the insurance co.). It's all desperate and not at all credible. Scary, even. McCain has no clue about the economy.
Obama is far more Presidential. He is head and shoulders more dignified and Presidential than even Ronald Regan. His conduct, his grasp of the issues, are his ideas. This man is a born leader and he is intelligent. A quality desperately needed at the top. He is able to communicate his ideas effectively because they are his ideas and a product of his own research and contemplation. McCain and Palin are puppets spouting talking points force fed to them by handlers who's only goal is to remain in power and continue reaping the personal benefits of that power.
What in Sarah Palin's personality lets her imply Barack is a terrorist? That's not leadership, that's not Presidential, that's just a character flaw. A lack of integrity, a lack of honesty, disingenuous and not deserving of our trust.
These people (McCain, Palin and their handlers) just want to win and will say anything to win. John McCain has been flip flopping and flailing around like a fish on a dock. In years past the republican party loyalist would be calling him out for that if he was a democrat. I actually feel sorry for McCain who so blatantly has sold out. That picture of him hugging Bush makes me sick after the working over Bush and Rove did to him in South Carolina.
LET ME EXPLAIN: to voice of reason: The tax rebate goes directly to the insurance co. because that pays for your insurance coverage. They have to get paid to provide insurance to you. It's called the premium.
Repuplicrat: I bethca that you like Palin. She has even less experience than Obama to handle the country, and we have all seen that there is only a vacuous void between the ears, doggone it.
When John McCain was being tortured in the Hanoi Hilton, Ayers was bombing the Capitol, etc. Funny that Obama later chose Ayers as his pal. Who is the real American?
When John McCain was being tortured in the Hanoi Hilton, Ayers was bombing the Capitol, etc. Funny that Obama later chose Ayers as his pal. Who is the real American?
I hope the true Conservatives kick these neo-con fascist and freedom hating zealots out of their party and balance the budget already. It's the democrats who are fiscally more responsible. That alone should cause an uproar in the Grand Oil Party. Viewer alert. The Sundance Channel has been featuring "Crude Awakening". If you haven't viewed this documentary watch it now (if you can handle the truth) they nailed it completely.
stop2think: do you McCain lovers ever give the media bias angle a rest? The media is pro Obama and yet he wasnt taken seriously until Iowa. The same media who spent many a day in the primary worrying about what Bill Clinton thought about Obama or the prospect of his wife losing. The same media who spent a month telling us that Obama was "having trouble" connecting with uneducated, small town whites who had supported Hillary. The same media that said a "star is born" after Palin read a speech she didnt write at the GOP convention. The same media that said "I bet Obama is wishing he picked Hillary now!" after Palin came on board. The same media that offers articles every week about how Obama needs to dumb himself down to appear more regular and less refined to appeal to low income whites. The same media that ran Rev. Wright stories for about 2 weeks straight and then conducted a debate in which Obama was forced to repeat his comments about divorcing from Wright even though the story was already a month old at the time. Give me a break. Your candidate is weak and your current president has messed up so bad that many a whie person is ready to vote for a black candidate who appears to be articulate and intelligent. Dont blame the media for Obama's position in the polls.
stop2think - I've read your posts before, you were the one praising Palin's intelligence. Delusional to say the least, and you continue with the Ayers bit. Basically every media outlet has debunked the Ayers issue, including more conservative ones, so what the heck are you talking about? Moreover, why weren't you complaining when the same outlets called Palin's convention speech a "home run" or when they were reporting the convention bump swinging the race in McCain's favor? Where was your outrage? Unfortunately for McCain, reality intervened on this fantasy campaigning, and the news simply must report that the global marketplace is in crisis. Yes it's true. I'm also sorry that most polls suggest Obama would handle this better, but hey, you can thank John - economy isn't my strong suit - McCain for that perception, perhaps. So, it seems to me that you won't believe the news until it tells you what you want to hear. That makes you perfect for a 1984 propaganda society. Send your money to The Bulletin. I'm sure they have all the truth you want.
It is not much a matter of who won the debate, it is most about who can do a better job as President of the United States of America. I found Mr. Obama as "THAT ONE".
Both candidates spoke their minds comfortably. But I found Mr. Obama very presidential, intelligent, respectful, genuinely caring and well-grounded. Even if Mr. Obama does not have the military record of Mr. McCAin, he showed great promise in having the security needed for America. He has his plans for a better America well presented. I believe he will truly be an excellent President.
Mr. Biden as well has shown he is fully capable as Vice President. He also has shown his intelligence and substance. He too made sense.
I do hope the Obama/Biden ticket wins. I truly trust this team. I look-up at the President and Vice President like my parents, with respect and trust; rely on them in time of crisis. I truly believe in this team, especially for the future of my children and grandchildren.
To all candidates, please no more mud-slinging and finger-pointing.....let us know how you can keep America great. Economy is in crisis ....
Check out this link for the crude awakening movie http://www.oilcrashmovie.com/
It wasn't a real town hall meeting because there was no back and forth. This was a conventional debate like any other.
"Are McCain supporters going to swallow their pride and stand behind Obama when he becomes president in 27 days? Or are you going to sit back and hope he fails? How strong will your patriotism be? Get on board for the next 8 years people and judge him appropriately along the way. That's right, I said "8"."
This is a very good question. If Barack Obama is elected, he has my support 100%. That does not mean I will always agree with his ideas or laws. But what it does mean is that I will certainly hope he is right and I am wrong when I disagree.
Another thing I will not do if Obama wins is what I have seen done to George Bush over the last 8 years -- calling him an idiot, or stupid, or any other slurs. He, and the same goes for Obama if elected, is the President of the United States, and he deserves the respect which comes from holding that position.
bon-this was worse than a conventional debate. There was no back and forth where the debaters were able to address what the other said. This was the worst format for viewers, regardless of who won, lost or tied. I felt like it was a cross between a 90 minute commercial and stump speech.
CD75 you obviously have no clue, in order to get something done the congress had to have some repubs back their agenda, but the repubs being true repubs put forth a blocking play on everything that was not blessed by their great leader Emperor Bush. Now prior to this stall out the repubs did plenty of nothing and handed the check book over to wall street and the war mongers. Politically savy people know these facts and if you are trying to sway people in this forum, you are wasting your time, I see your posts and instantly I know they are two year old repub spin from Limbaugh or Hannity.
bryanc: respect has to be earned to some degree. Bush isnt the best speaker in spite of his wealthy, high class pedigree. On top of that Bush has shown time and time again that he will not change his mind on issues or be flexible. He is very stubborn and will stick with his preconceived notions and failed subordinates no matter what. This is why many people have lost respect for him. Back in 2001 most people respected him to some degree but his actions after that changed a lot of minds. Bush is a guy who ran for President and glorified the fact that he was an average student and then repeatedly put unqualified people in positions of power, watched them fail and then praised their performance. It's like he was incapable of acknowledging mediocrity in any circumstance. I dont think many people find Bush to be a bad guy or someone with evil intentions but he got in over his head. Not just ANYONE can be president and Bush illustrated that point.
Last night, I heard a conservative offer buying up all the bad mortgages, and a liberal propose a net spending cut. Both candidates are slimy politicians pandering for votes, and America deserves better then a choice between Yosemite Sam and the Messiah. America needs Chuck Norris.
cd75 I question your americanism in that you must be on the repubs payroll and that you can not see out of the tower you have had built around you. America is on the edge at every turn and a real patriot would understand that party aside, I need to do whats right , and what is right is to bring the middle class relief and to stop pouring all the money into the bank accounts of the rich. its a new world ahead and it looks like you will be left behind.
hejira33312: It is sad people beleive what you posted. By giving dems in Congress a pass from responsibility based on the excuse "it is Bush's fault" (notwithstanding the fact that Busch is the weakess President of all time) you create the mediocrity and poor government that we have in the USA. You need to demand more. P.S. I never heard teh great Tip O'Neill make the whine you and others are making when he dealt with Ronald Reagan. Tip found a way to get it done. See e.g. the stories on Gucci Gulph (your probably have no idea what that is).
CD75, Demand more from who the Republicans who want to talk about flag burning and Gay Marriage and Abortion because they don't want to talk about the failing infrastructure or our broken healthcare system or the fact that they got us into Iraq without a plan? I for one can say , if Obama does get elected I will have a close eye on him and the people he surrounds himself with, unlike the repubs who turned a blind eye to Bush appointees knowing their buddy behind the desk in the oval office put that person there because he could make some cash or gets some favors ion the future. Remember the line " Brownie your doing a great job" thats what we can expect from a Mccain admin, croonies that do little , know little and care litle for government service and the importance of doing yur best everyday. CD75 you are a breed of people that will be looked back on in scorn and disgust in future genreations, people will wonder how you all got away with such horrible things. But you get what you give.....
JourneyHome-It's funny that you bring Bunch's comment to Poleman's column.A perfect marriage.You know what's worse than the picture of McCain hugging Bush ? The idea that McCain is forced to shake that scum bag Obama's hand !
I'm dumbing down here by even talking abt CD75...but I think CD75 is a 13 year old girl...there is nothing else that explains its comments...think about it! someone who can actually make the grand argument that Polman is losing readers but nevertheless themselves return faithfully everyday to say so! Have you just hit puberty little girl?
bryanc-I'm with you on the respect part.It will be difficult for sure but the office demands it.I won't sink to the level of the people who have routinely trashed Bush.However,that won't begin until after November 5th.
Yankee, I am glad to hear you will be so magnanimous. You should definitely be sure to circle November 5 in red on your calendar so you can show up early at the polls and cast your vote!
Yoda-Must be the big ears interferring with your thought process.I'll vote on the 4th & if the worst happens I'll deal with it AFTER the 5th.If you need me to re-phrase just say so.Surprised you can even spell magnanimous.I'll bet a Republican spotted you the first six letters.
Yankee, too bad...I figured it was worth a try to send you on the wrong day. And I don't need help from anyone to spell big words, my liberal arts education gave me a taste for mellifluous sesquipedalian linguistic efflorescences...
Okay Yoda,no more disparaging remarks.
Lots of stuff to requiring a response. First, about McCain's $5,000 health insurance credit...it does not go directly to the insurance companies. If you get health insurance from your employer, that will now be taxable (let's say $12,000 in premium at 20% tax rate equals $2,400 in taxes). Then, you will get a $5,000 tax credit with the difference paid directly to you. That $5,000 going to the insurance company will be if you buy directly from the insurer and want it to go to them....otherwise it is a refundable credit to you. Just some misinformation presented as fact again. Second, Palin never asserted Obama was a terrorist. She simply stated fact, that Obama served on a board with Ayers even after he knew the guy to be a terrorist and even after his printed comments from 9/11. If this is such a routine relationship, then why were the papers hidden until relaeased under court order. Also, if you checked out the education agenda of Ayers and Obama on those foundations, you would see it was more about indoctrination than education (Ayers even applauded Chavez dismantling the education system in Venezuela). Third, why did David Gergen say it is too early to claim victory because of race, Paul Begala said Palin was racist for bringing up Ayers, and Carville said if Obama is up by 5 and loses there could be riots in the streets. Fourth, Zogby has the lead for Obama at 2, Hotline has it at 1, and CBS has it at less than 3.....other polls showing a large lead have inordinate samples of AA, 18-29 year olds, and lots more Dems polled. Do not count your chickens before they come home to roost.
To answer squint, IF Obama wins on November 4th, I will RELUCTANTLY support him....until he breaks his promise of a middle class tax cut, raises taxes during an economic slowdown like he said he wouldn't (McCain reminded him of that last night), and he allows all of the Bush tax cuts expire.....which amount to a tax increase, and he guts defense to pay for all of his spending projects. Then I will have to stop supporting him, and be relieved we get a Republican Congress in 2010 just like we did after two years of Bill Clinton.
Hey tom, since my employer pys for most of my health benefit, McCain's "healthcare plan" is to tax it as a benefit. The first time in history! I'm sorry, but deregulating healthcare is not a solution. In fact, if McCain is elected and impliments such a plan, we will be looking at a multiple Trillion dollar bailout of the healthcare industry.
Yankee Air Pirate, its interesting that you call obama a scumbag, then two posts later say you'll respect him. But then again, you previously said obama wouldn't win a state.
"and he guts defense to pay for all of his spending projects." Yes, because it makes perfect sense to continue two wars and $600 bil worth of defense spending while the nation is so deeply in debt. But, if we could just get rid of that pesky $16 bil worth of earmarks (less than 1% of the budget), everything will be ok.
I agree that McBush looked old and tired. The way he lumbered around the stage reminded me of someone pretending to be the Frankenstein monster. Or some kind of robot. Everytime he said "my friend" I was forced to yell back at the television set, "I am not your friend!" Later I apolgized to my TV.
Some of what Obama says has some merit. Such as stating the best way to deal with Russia is to drive the cost of energy downward and become energy independent. Killing Obama when he's in our sites makes a lot of sense as well. But I don't know which Obama we would get as President. Is it the Centrist Obama or the one who told a group of San Francisco lefties that middle America is just clinging to their guns and religion? Bottom line is I think Obama would say anything to get elected then turn into the flaming liberal once he secures office. Both candidates seem to be proposing big government solutions where a more common sense approach would make sense. Such as making 10% down the mortgage standard. The fixed loan the only type of loan one can secure. Allow smal companies to form associations to get better health care coverage from Insurance companies. Stop sending out foreign aid etc etc
CD75: You're rather confused. Far from proving your claim, I disproved it. Your assertion was that the Dems had done nothing in their under-2-year term. I popped off two things they'd done without giving the issue any serious thought. This makes your claim an empty one.
Meant to say Osama Bin Ladin in my previous post, not Obama
As much as I don't want Obama for President and as bad as I think he would be for our country...I will at least support and respect him. I will not act as the typical Lib/Dems do and have done for the last 8 years and create stupid cartoons aimed at demeaning him, write hate-filled editorial after hate-filled editorial, I will not be blantantly disrespectful of the person AND postion, I will not call him "H" (as Dems do with Dubya) and make childish remarks about his accent, I will not spend every waking hour of my life plastering nonsensical stickers/posters/fliers reminding everyone of the date of when the new prez is sworn in, and I will not endorse morons like Keith Olbermann who devotes at least 1 hour per week to his ridiculous "special comments" aimed at attacking those who differ in opinion from him. I will simply just deal with it, live my life and wait for the next election. I only wish you Lib/Dems could for once do the same without trying to justify and rationalize your disrespectful, childish behavior. But hey, it's America...you're free to do so. Just remember the sacrafices made by all before us that made your blowhard tendencies a fundamental right.
That is if Obama wins...
bpphilly, there are tons of similair actions on the right. See what some crowdmembers at recent McCain/Palinr allies have been screaming. And for every Olbermann, theres a Rush or Ann Coulter. I also recall alot of Repub rage against clinton, and that was when times were good. And finally lets be honest, in retrospect Bush has been a pretty awful president.
And you also forget that Bush enjoyed almost universal support after 9/11. He p-ssed it away, libs didnt take it from him.
I can claim to be a healthcare expert, since I've co-authored books about it. There are really only three alternatives to our present system. One is the single-payer system like the UK and Canada. There are problems with this, although if we adopted the UK model, rich people would probably be happy with it(as they are in the UK)since they can buy out of it fairly cheaply. However, no candidate has proposed this approach. The second alternative is to expand our present employer-provided system. This is Obama's plan. This is in line with the German or French systems, which work pretty well. The third is to move toward individual insurance, as McCain proposes. There are almost insuperable problems of coverage with this approach--it is mostly an ideology-driven alternative. There's no easy solution to the problems of cost and coverage that are overwhelming us, but it seems to me that Obama's approach is the most conservative.
RG: For every Coulter and Rush, there's also a NYT, CNN, MSNBC, etc, etc, etc, etc. And no, there was nothing like what's going on now to Bush with Clinton. No where even close. And we can thank him for lots of the problems we have now, even though accountability on all sides seems to absent.
Who on earth would want McCain to fight the Bush recession ???? We have already had 8 years of Bush - PLEASE not 4 more !
bpphilly,
I am not a Bush supporter but cannot stand the Bush is an idiot BS. One does not attain It would be more honest for you and others on the right to observe the hypocrisy on your side. How often I remember Druggie Limbaugh decrying
bpphilly,
I am not a Bush supporter but cannot stand the Bush is an idiot BS. One does not attain It would be more honest for you and others on the right to observe the hypocrisy on your side. How often I remember Druggie Limbaugh decrying the lack of civility on the left as he described the Senate Majority leader as Dingy Harry.
How did we get in this financial mess? For answers watch this You Tube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5z9lD4C2Io
Liberal, what was the name of your book-My LIBERAL view of Healthcare? Polman is a professional columnist, but his ideology constantly negates his ability to observe facts in a objective way. YOU are a Obama supporter and YOU would support any democratic candidate. YOU would call Obama's plan conservative and yet it will cost America $50-60 billion on Obama's own account. Obama plan says that large employers MUST pay into healthcare accounts for their employees, the size of large companies being decided by Obama of course. That is a sneaky tax on corporations who are no longer able to shop around for the most cost effective insurance carrier. On small companies, Obama wants to give tax credits to employees without insurance, which disincentives companies to provide the insurance for themselves. So right away, that $50-60 billion goes through the roof. Obama wants to apply strict monetary policies on insurance companies. His plan states his administration will "prevent companies from abusing their monopoly power through unjustified price increases...force insurers to pay out a reasonable share of their premiums for patient care instead of keeping exorbitant amounts for profits and administration". Price controls and mandating fiscal policies on private companies is communistic.
tom: since you are an accountant, I'm assuming you are doing this on purpose. You simple example is valid (although it's $5000 for a family, NOT an individual as McCain said last night). You, as usual, are ignoring other taxes. Yes, they would pay their marginal income tax rate on the premiums. They would also pay payroll taxes (like social security). And so would their employer. The average middle class worker pays over 15% in various payroll taxes. Add this to your 20% example, and the plan isn't looking so good. Now add the fact that premiums have been rising 7% a year, and the tax credit looks even worse after a few years. Finally, when employers DROP health care coverage because they don't want to pay the taxes, my MUCH HIGHER premiums (I'm no longer part of a huge group) aren't even close the the $5k a year.
bpphilly, Clinton didnt start a hugely unpopular war and try to fund it with credit. And comparing Coulter and Rush to the NYT is insane. Seriously, check some of their statements and get back to me. Finally, I recently remembered that it was you who uses the term Nobama, yet you decry people calling Bush names (and stop with the false outrage over W, his supporters have bumper stickers with that on their cars)? Seems like you want people to do as you say not as you do.
HATER: besides the fact I assume you mean dis-incentivize, why would providing a tax credit to employees without insurance provide a disincentive to small businesses to provide that insurance? How does that help the company?
tom: when Biden suggested in his debate that bankruptcy judges should be able to adjust the principal owed, you freaked out. You posted about it several times. In light of that, what is your reaction to McCain's idea that the treasury should buy troubled mortgages and ... adjust the principal owed? Beyond that, is it more disturbing that HIS proposal - "It's my proposal, it's not Sen. Obama's proposal, it's not President Bush's proposal." is ALREADY in the $700B bailout plan he voted for? . . . btw, you're right in that Brokaw was pretty bad, although I kind of felt bad as the two of them were totally ignoring the distracting red lights.
Still-Just because your post is spotted with typos, I'm not going to throw them in your face. That would be petty. I'm not surprised you can't see the disincentive for companies if uninsured employees get tax breaks and insured employees get none. Look, employers are economically astute. If I owned a company, I would see the 7% a year increase in premiums as you say, and opt to allowing the government to provide the insurance for my employees. It's just like homeowners. I actually know someone who has a investment property that has lost 100k in value in the last 18 months. He wanted to short sale the property, but now with the candidates talking about allowing the judges to cut principle, he decided that not making his payments and taking it to court is his best option. Same thing with companies. You can't tell companies that it makes economic sense for them to allow the government to provide insurance.
Hater, conservative means preserving the status quo. Obama's healthcare plan is an expansion of the current system, while McCain's plan goes off in a different direction. McCain's plan is not without merit, but in my opinion it takes an overly-optimistic view of the prospects of individual insurance on a national scale. No other country has tried this. My opinions on health insurance long predate the current presidential campaign and are based on observation of healthcare systems in practice worldwide.
Any thought that there's going to be a great tax cut or a dramatic increase in good hearted government spending is a fantasy. Tom, you won't have to wait long for the Obama tax promise to fall. (BTW how long did you have to wait for the $1000 check from the fellow blogger several months ago) There's a ~$2 trillion hole to plug and the rest of the economy is bleeding now. Hater, you can (and do) trash Obama but, something's got to give on health care in the U.S. Throw out the relatively few people who choose to be without, there's way too many people who are desperate for care and can't get it. We're the richest health country in the world in resources (R&D, hospitals, Pharma, etc ) and folks die from lack of care. We're going to pay for this one way or another and it is unconscionable to let this happen.
HATER: so you are vehemently against McCain's plan, right? It would actually cost companies money (since they'd have to pay payroll taxes on the premiums). And there's a difference between typos and usage a noun as a verb (yes, that was intentional).
Still-I am vehemently againt ALOT of McCain's proposals on policies & future cabinet appointments. I'm sure Tom if he were honest would agree. I am a conservative. The system is working. I would get into it, but I'm leaving for a errand. I will just say that McCain is a slower path towards socialism than Obama.
The biggest problem with health care is the scumbag lawyers of this world (many are good but there are too many that give everyone else a bad name). The main reason health insurance costs so much is doctors and hospitals must charge so much to pay for their malpractice coverage. The bogus malpractice suits and high litigation costs are the biggest problem with health care. Address that...if your lose your lawsuit you should have to pay the attorney fees of the doctors/insurance companies and then see how many bogus lawsuits there are. If the scumbag can't afford that then the ambulance chasing attorney should be on the hook. Sounds simple but unfortunately so many politicians were lawyers.
This is what's great about this country...ACORN the group Obama worked closely with early in his career and who is currently doing his dirty work...they are also a group he and the Dems tried to send billions to in the recent bailout package. Well in Ohio local ACORN representatives told members of the Cuyahoga County elections board that they could not eliminate voter fraud from their operation. In places like Nevada, Missouri and Indiana they are being caught red handed with voter fraud. Of course "that one" has no problem with this since he's been part of it his whole career.
This is what's great about this country...ACORN the group Obama worked closely with early in his career and who is currently doing his dirty work...they are also a group he and the Dems tried to send billions to in the recent bailout package. Well in Ohio local ACORN representatives told members of the Cuyahoga County elections board that they could not eliminate voter fraud from their operation. In places like Nevada, Missouri and Indiana they are being caught red handed with voter fraud. Of course "that one" has no problem with this since he's been part of it his whole career.
ResponsibleAmerica, I enjoy reading your posts. You are right about scumbag lawyers destroying our healthcare system, but they are just one variable to the problem. Still and Liberal, you are such students of the world's healthcare system, why don't you admit that America's Healthcare is the best? Since we are the best, then why are you trying to drastically change it? Could it be that the current system doesn't align itself with your overall views of communism towards equal healthcare and income for all, regardless of status and skill-level? It really has less to do with the actual financial problems within the system. Stop demonizing the same companies that are extending and enriching our lives. Let's focus on illegal immigration bankrupting our hospitals, and (like RA suggested) outrageous malpractice lawsuits playing havoc with insurance rates. If we deal with those issues, along with new regulations I agree with, regarding electronic records, the healthcare industry will continue to be the best in the world. Let's use Obama's scalpel to fix this problem.
HATER: Love those Palin & McCain rallies! You must love the crowd participation, no? The real Obama? A terrorist, a traitor. Kill him? Calling for his head? Name one other American candidate whose crowd reacted like that since you've been alive?
On the line of supporting the president and bashing the same. You know if Bush had governed like a president of the United States instead of the President of the Republican Right, I would have had a lot more respect for him. If it wasn't for the cynical and in my opnion at least criminal expansion of executive power in this administration I would have supported him. In my lifetime I have seen a number of Presidents and without a doubt the two worst are Nixon and W. Both have trashed the constitution.
rg-the office,not necessarily the man.if he is elected president,i'll surely refrain from the kind of language i used today.don't recall saying he wouldn't win a state but if i did say it,i'm clearly wrong.
Frank: Nixon just rolled over in his grave when you compared him to Bush. I was no fan of the man, but the good things he did at least matched the bad. Bush's bad far surpasses his good. I've read historian claiming Harding was terrible, but if Bush had just sat around playing cards, we would have been better off...
RG: No Clinton didn't start a hugely unpopular war funded by credit...but he did balk at the chance of taking out Bin Laden when he had the opportunity more than once, and look where it lead to. (read Dereliction of Duty, penned by Robert "Buzz" Paterson who served on Clinton's staff) I do post on here "NObama." But if you actually paid any attention to my previous posts, it would clearly stop because as I stated, I have the upmost respect for the Office as well as the responsibilities and stresses it imposes on the person. Granted, Rush and Coulter are scumbags...but the rest of the MSM is 150% in the tank for Obama, that cannot be argued. Liberal media enjoys probably a 3-1 ratio to that on the conservative tint. But again, let's not act as if the last 8 years, Libs/Dems have seized every opportunity not to disagree/voice opinion against Bush, but rather they have done nothing but disrespect him and the office whenever the chance presented itself. It's about class, respect and love for your country. Not love for the party...the way Dems see it.
ModerateMarge: How many bumper stickers have you counted that claimed Clinton to be the womanizing scumbag that he is/was? Nowhere near the ammount of anti-Bush...not to mention that probably the vast majority of those anti-Bush stickers will remain plastered all over long after he's left the White House...I'm not even sure what you're trying to say in your posts. Hypocrisy?? It's a 2 way street sweetheart. Just like "Mcsame" What is so similar between the 2 other than part affiliation. If you had any clue about either of their views, which would require you to take off you ever-so-popular hater hat, you would know that they differ greatly on most of their views. Just go back to being a hater because "it's hip." But anyway, what were you saying about hypocrisy?
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