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Friday, October 3, 2008

 

 

Both Joe Biden and Sarah Palin performed well in the debate last night, meeting their respective challenges. Biden showed off his policy fluency, touted his running mate's message of "fundamental change," treated Palin with respect even when contradicting her (thus avoiding the charge of sexist bullying), and over a span of 90 minutes said nothing that could be construed as a gaffe. As for Palin, she was verbally crisp (for a change), efficiently on message about McCain, relentlessly assertive in her criticisms of the Democratic ticket, and relentlessly folksy.

Folksy, for sure: "...go to a kid's soccer game...I betcha....darn right it was the predatory lenders...Joe six pack...hockey moms across the nation...a heckuva lot...darn right we need tax relief...now doggone it..."

After awhile, I started to think I was listening to Marge Gunderson, the pregnant hick cop in Fargo.

All told, Palin excelled to the best of her abilities - a welcome respite for worried Republican partisans. But, given Biden's solid performance (particularly during the final 30 minutes), it's doubtful that Palin changed the dynamics of a race that appears, by every objective polling measure, to be tilting increasingly Democratic. Indeed, Biden was deemed the clear winner of the debate in polls conducted last night by CNN and ABC. Even if those double-digit margins diminish over the next 48 hours, it's hard to imagine that Palin will ultimately succeed in shifting momentum to McCain.

She gave it her best effort, aided by two factors. Gwen Ifill, the moderator, let her off easy. When Palin didn't feel like answering the question posed to her, Ifill didn't try to pin her down. Perhaps this was because Palin's allies had pre-spun the debate with their insinuations that Ifill was in the tank for Barack Obama, and as a result Ifill wanted to bend over backwards to be fair. Whatever the reason, the result was a break for Palin. At one point, she simply told Biden, "I may not answer the questions that either the moderator or you want to hear."

Her dismissive stance was particularly useful when Ifill asked a good question about whether Palin agrees with Dick Cheney's concept of a...shall we say...vigorous vice presidency. Palin responded with evasive gibberish: "Well, our founding fathers were very wise there in allowing through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president. And we will do what is best for the American people in tapping into that position and ushering in an agenda that is supportive and cooperative with the president's agenda in that position. Yeah, so I do agree with him that we have a lot of flexibility in there, and we'll do what we have to do to administer very appropriately the plans that are needed for this nation." There was no follow up from Ifill. Granted, the rules for this debate supposedly barred her from following up, but there are many ways for a moderator to pursue an evasive candidate - by reminding viewers that a question was not answered, or by subsequently rephrasing the question.  

The second factor aiding Palin was gender-based. Palin was free to go after Biden (male), but if Biden went after Palin (female), he risked looking like a bully. So he was forced to spend much of his time in reactive mode, seeking to fend off her attacks ("The charge is absolutely not true...That is simply not true"). Clearly she was trying to roil him to the point where he'd commit a verbal miscue worthy of repeated video replay. He didn't take the bait - his tone was calm, his manner was firm - but no debater can get maximum mileage by playing defense. (He was even reactive on the folksy stuff. She led with hockey moms and Joe six pack; he came back later with Katy's Diner and Home Depot.)

Palin demonstrated in this debate that she has estimable communication skills. Millions of viewers undoubtedly fixated on her perky delivery - which is lucky for her, given the fact that her blatant falsehoods were so numerous. When falsehoods are delivered with a smile, many viewers will simply absorb them and remember the smile. I'm not going to list them all, because I've dealt with so many of them at length in this space before - such as the fakery about Obama supposedly voting for higher taxes "94 times," and the fakery about Obama supposedly voting to raise taxes on people making $42,000, and the tall tale about how McCain supposedly "sounded that warning bell" on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac back in 2006, whereas, in reality, McCain finally signed on to an oversight bill 16 months after its initial Senate sponsors had rung the bell.  

But three other falsehoods are worth recounting. Palin insisted, for instance, that Biden was a hawk on Iraq, just like McCain, until the '08 campaign commenced; as she told Biden, "you had supported John McCain's military strategies pretty adamantly until this race." That charge can charitably be described as total baloney. When President Bush announced his plans for the troop surge, shortly after the '06 elections, McCain signed on in full support. Biden did the opposite; as the new Foreign Relations Committee chairman in 2007, he and his invited witnesses denounced the move in a series of hearings.

Palin also recycled the persistent McCain falsehood about how U.S. troop levels in Iraq supposedly have been drawn down to "pre-surge levels." This has been factually refuted many times - when Bush leaves office, there will be roughly 3000 more soldiers on the ground than before the surge - but Palin's handlers probably figured that the fakery would work anew if delivered by a folksy messenger.

Meanwhile, on the domestic falsehood front, Palin said this to Biden: "Now, you said recently that higher taxes or asking for higher taxes or paying higher taxes is patriotic. In the middle class of America which is where Todd and I have been all of our lives, that's not patriotic." But Biden has never said that paying higher taxes in patriotic (Palin implied that Biden believes this as a matter of principle), nor that he specifically views higher middle-class taxes as patriotic (as Palin's second sentence implied). During an interview two weeks ago with ABC News, Biden merely stated that Americans earning more than $250,000 annually should be prepared to give up their Bush tax cuts, for the common good: "It’s time to be patriotic, time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut.”

Biden had a few falsehoods of his own. He kept insisting that McCain has voted "20 times" against alternative energy, whereas the nonpartisan watchdogs at factcheck.org believe that the real number is roughly half that large. He also recycled an old Obama charge about how McCain supposedly wants to deregulate the entire "health care industry," whereas in reality McCain was only talking (in one line of a magazine story) about making it easier for people to purchase health care across state lines. But, ultimately, Biden had the wind at his back. He had the advantage of framing this election as a referendum on eight years of Republican rule ("the economic policies of the past eight years have been the worst economic policies we've ever had"), and making his pitch to an electorate that seems increasingly primed for change.

Palin tried to parry this strategy in folksy fashion, mixing her Marge with a Reagan oldie but goodie - "Say it ain't so, Joe, there you go again pointing backwards again. You preferenced your whole comment with the Bush administration. Now doggone it, let's look ahead" - but what she (and her handlers) appear to be forgetting is that Reagan won his race in 1980 by pointing the electorate backwards to the failings of Jimmy Carter's Democratic administration. An election is typically a referendum on the in party, and Sarah Palin is too ill-qualified to alter that dynamic all by herself; indeed, the CNN/Opinion Research poll reports that a majority of Americans questioned her fitness before the debate, and a majority still questioned her fitness afterwards.

In political terms, she at least staunched her bleeding, but she's not credible enough to close the sale for McCain. That job is his alone.

 

 

Posted by Dick Polman @ 3:01 AM  Permalink | 213 comments
Comments   
Comment removed.
Posted 08:08 AM, 10/03/2008
still_independent
It's a petty thing, but this always drove me nuts w/ Bush - Sarah, the word is "nuclear", not "nuc-u-ler".
Comment removed.
Posted 08:16 AM, 10/03/2008
jmc
Biden was all facts, whether true or not. It was wave after wave coming at you, and difficult to process. However he did a good job being respectful to Palin while still being on the attack as is the VP role. Palin had a simpler message and talked directly to the American people. I heard a pundit on the radio this morning say that what Biden knows you can learn, but you can't learn what Palin knows, and that's how to talk to the American people. Biden was the politician, with a thick veneer of 35 years in the Senate. Palin is obviously new to the game, but that freshness helped. There's alot of anger at Washington out there, people don't need to hear a politician speak, they need to hear someone like themselves speak, and that's Palin's strength. The first Presidential debate on foreign policy was a tie, and that helped Obama because he is weaker in that area. This VP debate was a tie and that helps McCain because, let's face it, you have a newcomer vs. a 35 year Senator.
Posted 08:18 AM, 10/03/2008
swedesboromike
If you want more of the same the Biden and Obama are your guys. The Senate version of the bailout included things like 192 million to give Rum Distillers in Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Island a tax break. check out Taxpayors for common sense at www.taxpayer.net to see the idiotic nonsense added to the bailout bill. Biden and his cronies are the same people who threatened discrimination lawsuits agains lenders who would not lend to unqualified applicants. Biden and his cronies are the same people who allowed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to back loans that were highly speculative. So if you believed the Joe " slick Joey " Biden last night then vote for that ticket. You'll get the government you deserve! Palin on the other hand is not so far removed of the reality of balancing a check book that I would welcome her common sense personality as the VP of the United States.
Posted 08:19 AM, 10/03/2008
yobill626
The big story is McCain's pulling out of Michigan. His road to 270 is dwindling by the day. His campaign is again back to being (almost) as screwed up as he was in late July. Why is he still going to Iowa (which he won't get despite a trip this week), & pulling out of Michigan? They have a poorly-viewed Dem governor & a recently removed creep of a Dem mayor in Detroit who's generated some racial polarity there on top of an already crippled economy. Maybe they were getting info from Macomb County indicating they weren't getting anywhere (but I don't see how)? These guys lost their focus when real life took interest away from their cosmetics on farm animals campaign.
Posted 08:25 AM, 10/03/2008
CD75
Palin "won" the debate by a score of 3-2, which means that Biden accomplished his goal - don't give up the long ball and blow Obama's lead.
Posted 08:27 AM, 10/03/2008
swedesboromike
$ 200,000 for the Rose City Archery club in the Myrtle Point Oregon was added to the bailout bill. The money amounts to a tax break for using wooden arrows for the children practicing archery. Money well spent???? This is the nonsense these career politicians put into spending bills. McCain has never added a pet project to any bill. When watching the debate last night I saw slick Joey Biden saying one thing to the American people knowing that he is as much the problem with spending as anyone in Washington. If you want more of these type of people who say one thing to your face then squander your hard earned money the next then vote Obama-Biden and you can expect to add a few more trillion to the national debt
Posted 08:30 AM, 10/03/2008
gee1971
She most certainly did not win that debate. She had a significantly imporved performance from her previous outings. But the bar she set previously is not the measuring stick, she is not in this job yet. Improvement from previous performances is not enough. It's the bar set by her opponent that matters. She was outperformed. Speaking in an informed manner and in coherent sentenses is the absolute minimum standard a candidate for Pres or VP should be able to meet. Most Americans are either relieved or surprised she was able to do so. We need better, we deserve better, we will elect better.
Posted 08:32 AM, 10/03/2008
yobill626
I agree with jmc's asessment. She's fresh & has obviously begun to get her act together after being with Couric. The "Shout out" to the 3rd grade class in Alaska was inspired. I'm just hoping that Americans aren't so angry at Washington that they'd vote for a candidate who's best attributes are apparently a smile & a wink. The only way I want "Hockey Mom" in the VP Mansion next year is on a visit to our VP Joe Biden.
Posted 08:35 AM, 10/03/2008
swedesboromike
So what Polin is saying is that people who are like Marge Gunderson in Fargo are too stupid, hokie, and unpolished to be VP. Anyone who has ever seen the movie Fargo would know that despite the " awe shocks " personality Marge Gunderson got the bad buy in the end and saved the day. I don't know why media moguls hire guys like Polman. The snobbery is nauseating.
Posted 08:52 AM, 10/03/2008
CD75
Comparing Palin to the "hick" cop in Fargo? That is a slur. So people from North Dakota are hicks, but people from the northast are somehow better because they live in the northeast? She has an accent, so what? Would you make fun of her if she had a Boston accent or a Long Island accent?
Posted 08:53 AM, 10/03/2008
Waiting4U
Nothing changed, which means barring some unforeseen event before Election Day, our next President will be Barack Obama.
Posted 08:56 AM, 10/03/2008
etotheb
It was funny how easy it was to spot her transitions between ad libs and well-practiced talking points. She would fumble around until she could make it to the pre-programmed message and then she was fine, even if she never actually answered the question presented. It seems pretty clear from the responses here that everyone thought that their horse won, which seems to mean it probably did little to sway anyone that could be swayed.
Posted 09:00 AM, 10/03/2008
Gibba Mang
OK, I admit Palin did a mucyh better job than I anticipated, but I also has very low expectations. I thought Palin did herself a dis service with the folksy twang. It was a bit forced, to me. In the end, I doubt that Palin converted many Indepdendents, and she needed to do that last night. I also doubt that they will be any change in the polls. We shall see...
Posted 09:04 AM, 10/03/2008
ObamaHATER
Still: I saw bias in Ifill when she would let Biden have the last statement on almost every point, including the final comment. She also left out topics like health care and education where Palin might hve some personal appeal with the voters, and went straight to things like gay marriage, where she expected Palin to come off as too religious. Then, while the economy is all the rage today, Ifill spent the majority of the debate asking about foreign policy, knowing that that was Biden's strong suit. I also saw anger in the face of Ifill as she spoke to Palin. Given the fact that everyone knows Ifill is in the tank, you cannot easily dismiss my assertion without at least going back and rewatching the debate.
Posted 09:05 AM, 10/03/2008
rallyrally
Really, can anyone honestly say that she'd be capable of representing our country throughout the world after that rambling, incoherent performance last night - GW Bush has embarrassed this country so much that we need to have an articulate, knowledgeable person as VP to repair the damage. 2 things that should scare the hell out of everyone: She said we'll put an American Embassy in Jerusalem and that she wants to expand the powers of the VP (to what, the Presidency?!) Those 2 things alone conclusively disqualify her to be VP. McBush-Failin will gain no ground just because she showed up and lasted until the end of the debate without imploding. Sorry - Biden wiped the floor with her and she didn't even know it.
Posted 09:20 AM, 10/03/2008
pagoda
Hater- Palin had no interest in making final comments. Although articulate, her answers were clearly drilled into her during the cram session and any expansion would have been dangerous.
Comment removed.
Posted 09:22 AM, 10/03/2008
longshanks
What kind of parents would allow their 7 year old to hold their infant son? I think Palin made it abundantly clear that she's good at repeating talking points and using her beguiling hick nature to try to attract people. However, she lied profusely, but then what else is new? The truth is that she didn't answer most of the questions asked because she simply can't answer them. You can't make up your own rules. But then again, McCain/Palin is more of the same of Bush/Cheney, another duo that made up their own rules. Just her response to the VP's duties alone proves that she has no intention on listening to the will of the people but rather expanding the powers of the Executive branch to push their own wacky Christian right agenda. Again, what kind of a family gives their 7 year old the responsibility to carry their infant son? It's totally and completely irresponsible. If that's how she is with her own family, I can only imagine how she'll be with American families. Do as Sarah says not as she does. That seems to be her tag line. It's time to change the same old tired and corrupt system and McCain't it. Obama/Biden '08!
Posted 09:23 AM, 10/03/2008
Vote Dem In 08
ObamaHATER/racist: You have got to be kidding me with that last post about Ifill being biased. She is being universally praised for her evenhanded questioning throughout the media this morning. You really need to get over your obvious hate of anyone not white. Same old stuff from the repugs: Lies, distortions, lies.
Posted 09:28 AM, 10/03/2008
Vote Dem In 08
Xi Jah - Yes, I can say that and apparently a vast majority of Americans can say that - see the polling, or just ask random people. Biden was so on the mark last night that even some of the Repug pundits had to admit that Palin just got by. Polman might be wrong - I think this changes a lot of independent and undecided voters to go with Obama/Biden. Watch the polling. And come up with some intelligent posts and quit with the mimicking. You're tired and boring.
Posted 09:33 AM, 10/03/2008
PattyPat1962
Pathetic performance by Palin last night - I see that it''s got the repugs here all in a tizzy trying to defend it. Poor pitiful losers you are.
Posted 09:38 AM, 10/03/2008
chrissmith
It's sooooooo funny trying to read all the liberals spin Palin's excellent performance. Sorry! It won't work this time. All of America got to watch her first-hand, without your comments or editing. She was great. Period.
Posted 09:44 AM, 10/03/2008
NipTip
I thought it was a great night for Biden. Palin didn't really answer thre questions posed, and used her follow-up time to go back to her "energy expertise" which isn't expert at all. Her folksy affectations were nauseating. And you could see her trying desperately to recall talking poiints and the flaccid "zingers" that her debate camp coaches fed her ... I think she harmed the chances of McCain ever coming back up in the polls. Next to Biden's clearly superior performance she looked like a 5th grader.
Posted 09:49 AM, 10/03/2008
Vote Dem In 08
Really chrissmith? I think you're as about out of your league as Simple Sarah. Liberals are spinning??!! - do you even know what the word means? The only way you could say that Palin had an excellent debate is to spin it that way - she was terrible. Open your eyes and look at the polling - Americans overwhelmingly say that Biden won handily and will win in November and that Palin's weak performance did nothing for her team. Now, run and tell your Momma about that!
Posted 09:51 AM, 10/03/2008
pagoda
Chris- If relaying canned answers is your vision of greatness, then I see your point. This morning I made a pot of coffee all by myself, Great! I drove to work without an accident- I am truly excellent! Folksy smiles and repeating talking points is not debating, nor should it assure America she's ready to lead a summit with warring nations.
Posted 09:53 AM, 10/03/2008
NipTip
chrissmith has to "try" to read the comments here - Why can't Johnny read? He must have been a Bush Child Left Behind.
Posted 09:58 AM, 10/03/2008
philly2flag
I think Polman meant wind "from" his back. What do you think all that grimacing was for?
Posted 10:00 AM, 10/03/2008
NipTip
All she kept saying was that she and McCain were Mavericks. If you have to tell people you're a maverick (or a hero), you aren't a maverick (or a hero). And their records certainly show they are not mavericks.
Posted 10:01 AM, 10/03/2008
budorob
There is certainly some regional bigotry thrown around here today. I thought it was a tie. I liked her folksy approach. It's refreshing. Biden underestimated her, and I could tell he was flustered b/c he had to repeat his talking points over and over...that's a sign that he was scrambling internally for a contrasting argument. At times, I felt like he was talking to me like a 7 year old. How many times did he say, "let me repeat that again." She also pulled a bait-and-switch on him, and NOBODY in the media noticed it. Gov Palin started by attacking Obama and Biden on their past, which caused Biden to fight back. He fell for her trap, and that's when she pulled out the "say it ain't so, Joe" line about looking forward, instead of looking back. Masterful. But I doubt anyone will read this far because I'm praising the Governor's performance.
Posted 10:07 AM, 10/03/2008
Djoko Pritza
No, chrissmith is a six-figure lawyer in New York. At least that's what he says. Wink, wink.
Posted 10:16 AM, 10/03/2008
Rauol Duke
So, when is Sarah going to take a follow up question? Or when is she going to answer the question asked? Ad far as the so-called lawyer everyone is betting up on make six figures in New York as an attroney is what a good legal clerk earns.
Comment removed.
Posted 10:19 AM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
rallyrally, you should realize that what was proposed in the two state solution was that the Palestinian state would have a capital in East Jerusalem and Israel would have West Jerusalem, and it is only after a two state solution is in effect that we would move the embassy to Jerusalem. So, where is that a problem? As for VP Power, even Biden got it wrong when he said Article 1 of the constitution deals with the Executive branch. It does not, and he has been in Washingotn for 36 years. I do not believe she wants a unitarian executive and probably only meant about the VP presiding over the Senate, which is what is in the Constitution.
Posted 10:22 AM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
longshanks, as a father of six, I can honestly say I never prevented my children from holding their siblings. To me it was a way of integrating them into the care of the infant and preventing jealousy or competition from forming. Now, I would not allow my 4 year old to hold an infant, but a 7 year old can be taught how to hold a child just as they hold a doll. To me that is not a problem and I wonder if you would be saying that if the Rep VP name was Scott Palin instead of Sarah.
Posted 10:28 AM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
I wonder what debate a lot of you were watching last night. Did Palin answe questions....YES. A lot of her answers were one sentence or even one word. For instance, did she agree with the bankruptcy bill...she said yes. Does she support civil rights for gay couples...she said yes, but did not support gay marriage. Which country did she believe was more dangerous, Pakistan or Iran...she said pretty much Iran. About nuclear weaponry being used (a ridiculous question to be sure), she said it would be the end all and should be used as a deterrent. However, she did not answer the way a lot of liberals wanted her to answer, and that is what has you all so ticked off.
Posted 10:29 AM, 10/03/2008
NipTip
budorob: You found her folksy schtick refreshing? SUre - if she was debating for Senior Council President. This was a debate between candidated for the Vice President of the united States. It's serious - more so than ever - and she acts like it's a pageant or game show. I am sure she'd loved to have had a lifeline last night. Biden's debating skills last night were excellent. I cannot find any major poll that shows the American public doesn't overwhelmingly think that Biden won the debate easily. Palin did not/could not provide any coherent detail about any plans that her ticket has for solving the problems we face - just talking points, self admiration and lies - huge lies.
Posted 10:31 AM, 10/03/2008
mike l
Posted by Xi Jah 09:22 AM, 10/03/2008 Really, can anyone honestly say that HE'D be capable of representing our country throughout the world after that rambling, incoherent performance last night Yeah xi, I and millions of other voters can. Every poll taken after the debate showed Biden well above palin in every way. She's a joke who can't speak off the cuff, but only in soundbites fed to her. I hear Mattel is scoming out with a Chatty Sarah doll that repeats the same phrases over an over when you pull her string. Would I trust Joe Biden as president? You betcha!
Posted 10:33 AM, 10/03/2008
Djoko Pritza
I was not surprised Palin survived last night, and had predicted it beforehand. The debate format is much friendlier to an uninformed person than is being questioned by a reporter who can follow up. In addition, the McCain campaign further tweaked the format to minimize changes the Gov could mess up; the campaign drilled her on the issues to the point she had a dazed, brainwashed look on her face the whole debate; McCain intimidated the moderator so she’d not press Palin on her responses; when the question was off the talking points, Palin just avoided answering; the Gov instead repeated campaign lies ad nauseam, and on and on. So, she proved she could survive … but she also affirmed she’s not qualified to be vice president. And if Batman has his Joker, McCain has his Winker.
Posted 10:41 AM, 10/03/2008
PattyPat1962
tom - 2 things - 1st - I agree with your post (mark the date!) to longshanks about children holding babies - my children do and I think it is important for them in their bonding and developement for many many reasons and it shouldn't be an issue and wouldn't be if it were a man as the candidate. 2nd - the liberals here are not ticked off that Sarah didn't answer questions the way WE wanted. She didn't answer them with any SUBSTANCE that indicated that she has a basic grasp of the issues (certainly not the economy, war, foreign affairs, supreme court). She absolutely needed to be able to speak to the issues with facts and details, like Biden did, for the most part. It's the one thing that most of the viewers were looking for and she didn't deliver on - read the polls. I think you're only seeing what your eyes want to see, because everything else indicates otherwise.
Posted 10:42 AM, 10/03/2008
Expose-Them
Sarah Palin is the real "she's so famous" rock star displaying Paris Hilton depth, while Joe Biden is the rock. Joe Biden was concise, specific, and serious throughout the evening. Palin was all hollywood style and winking glitz as she delivered campaign talking-points with a cooking-popcorn style. As we watched the pot warming, it was just a matter of which "talking point" would pop up when. Biden was robust with detail and deliberative, persuasive responses to serious questions--He actually answered the questions instead of bullying the moderator by announcing, I will answer the questions if I want, my way. This bullying tactic enabled Palin to swerve around several questions, about which she had no idea. We have to give credit to the brain-washing wing of the Bush, ops, McCain campaign. The candidate continues to display all style and no substance. We are reduced to, "If she can spew out random talking points, then she is a success." What a horribly low-expectaton for a potential leader of the free world. The campaign has worked wonders selling the Palin brand like perfumed soap. Pat Buchannan was gushing with the McCain campaign line after the debate last night. He shouted, she was fresh, attractive, she did a wonderful job. Would Miss. South Carolina join the other beauty queen contestants on stage? We may a new Secretary of Defense soon.
Posted 10:47 AM, 10/03/2008
p-diddy
CD75: People made cracks about the Kennedy's Boston accents all the time. And it's not a slur to make fun of the way Palin talks. She's deliberately turning up the folksiness in order to appeal to rural voters, so it's fair game. "Doggone it, Americuns er cravin' thaat straight tok. You betchya!"
Posted 11:03 AM, 10/03/2008
p-diddy
Tom: I'm not ticked off at Palin's performance at the debate at all. What ticks me off about her is she's the most blatantly unqualified VP pick of all time. That's not hyperbole, by the way. She was chosen because politicians recognize that huge chunks of American voters no longer even demand that their candidates actually have policy positions; they simply consume them as media entertainment, rooting for or against them according to the reflexive prejudices of their demographic, as they would for reality-show contestants or sitcom characters. Hicks root for hicks, moms for moms, born-agains for born-agains. The truly disgusting thing about Sarah Palin isn't that she's totally unqualified, or a religious zealot, or married to a secessionist, or unable to educate her own daughter about sex, or a fake conservative who raised taxes and horked up earmark millions every chance she got. No, the most disgusting thing about her is what she says about us: that you can ram us in the a-- for eight solid years, and we'll not only thank you for your trouble, we'll sign you up for eight more years, if only you promise to stroke us in the right spot for a few hours around election time.
Posted 11:08 AM, 10/03/2008
Samter
If Palin was a man or an African American and had the same level of inexperience would the republicans think he/she was so wonderful?
Posted 11:09 AM, 10/03/2008
FossilRabbit
I really don't care about anything except the substance of the debate. Getting the General's name wrong is actually a bigger deal than it may seem on the face of it - she had the name in her notes. Can't Palin read her own notes? Was the name wrong in her notes too? I don't like it. I didn't hear a single specific thing Palin got right. She wasn't coached well and so she was horribly mistaken about the Obama voting record. One can't comfortably presume that she could check the "facts" she's fed with her own diligence, if she could do it, she certainly didn't choose to do so. We're left with someone entirely dependent on handlers - incapable of challenging the validity of what she is fed. Her dependence, coupled with zero grasp of issues (zero knowledge of the healthcare crisis - her talk of regulation of wall street, but she couldn't name a regulation if her life depended on it), gives me pause about just how shallow and under educated her supporters must be. How many of these people were teasing and bullying the smart kid when they were in school? Palin supporters: your lack of intellectual curiosity and your contempt for it is (still) showing. You voted for Bush twice, didn't you? You are embarrassing us all.
Posted 11:15 AM, 10/03/2008
Gibba Mang
She's deliberately turning up the folksiness in order to appeal to rural voters, so it's fair game. "Doggone it, Americuns er cravin' thaat straight tok. You betchya!".....As an educated East Coster, I thought the "folksy" thing was forced. I may play well in red states, but it didn't appear genuine, to me. As I said before, Palin did well although I don't she verbalized enough specifics to change undecides. Biden did well especially on foreign policy. I think the moment where he discussed losing his wife and child was very powerful, especially for woman. Palin may have slowed the bleeding by taking the attention off her poor ABC and CBS interviews. But McCain still has an uphill battle over the next 4 weeks.
Posted 11:18 AM, 10/03/2008
aviben
Joe's the bigger story. He was perfect, tonally and theatrically. He put Palin on the defensive early with his "ultimate bridge to nowhere" aside. That rejoinder may have dissuaded Palin from bomb-throwing (a reference to Neil Kionnock would have had the press regurgitating that old chestnut, so Biden was wise to strike first with a jab). And Biden's put-down of Palin's talk of expanded vice presidential powers -- he called it "bizarre" -- was forceful and evocative of the speaker as well. Biden confirmed Obama's judgment by choosing him; Palin, while she out-performed expectations, failed to convince skeptics that she's qualified for executive office. When she blurted out "I've only been here for, what, five weeks," she offered personal testimony as to her lack of experience. In sum: This debate was most notable for establishing Biden as a plausible president. Palin salvaged her candidacy but did little to earn new support from a public that's dubious as to her bona fides.
Posted 11:18 AM, 10/03/2008
akshay23
Tom...as usual you skip all the parts where she didn't answer the question and brought in 3-4 yes/no questions to prove your point...it's rather silly...EVERYBODY knows she doesn't understand the issues...so why do you keep defending her on that? It's silly...just stick to the usual point of her being refreshing...can't you be honest just once?
Posted 11:19 AM, 10/03/2008
puttinonthefoil
I call them like I see them, and I think that Palin did ok. By the standards set for her, she did great, actually. No, she did not really answer many of the questions, and it was a nice exercise to try and follow her non sequitors - the energy independence one really coming out of nowhere and being nongermane to the topic discussed, but maybe those were the lines that popped in her head. In any case, I was expecting far worse, and I think everyone else was, and if those sinking expectations were one factor in sagging polls, I think that will level off, so she did a good job there. Personally, I think the folksy style is embarrassing, but that's just me. Now, as for Biden, I thought he did a great job. He won the debate. In fact, I thought he did better than in any primary debate that I saw him, and I thought his performance had more appeal and strength than Barack Obama's of last week.
Posted 11:24 AM, 10/03/2008
akshay23
and TOM you still haven't told me the brilliant ways in which McCain is going to stop Iran from getting the bomb...is it because he has no answer? Or is it just your usual dishonesty against Obama?
Posted 11:26 AM, 10/03/2008
chrissmith
Sorry liberals, you can't spin your way out of this one. Palin did great. Period. Look at the polling.
Posted 11:27 AM, 10/03/2008
hawk
Joe Biden looked like a space alien with a hair plugged head and weird antenna kinds of things going from the corners of his eyes to his temples. Was he receiving messages from the mothership? His eyes were so jacked up at the corners on occasion he looked Asian.The teeth...my God, the teeth. Those babies would glow in the dark.
Posted 11:28 AM, 10/03/2008
psv
I thought Palin presented herself really well. Extremely well. However, she really faltered in the end. She let Biden tear apart the maverick image - she didn't respond to it AND she didn't use the word maverick again for the rest of the debate. Had Biden done that earlier in the debate I think the tone would've been really different. Final thought: I hated that debate format, for both parties involved. It was nothing but a 90 minutes of soundbites from political commercials and pieces from stump speeches. I would've loved to see only four or five questions and let them duke it out. For all intents and purposes that was only Palin's fourth time in the spotlight and as a practical matter I would've liked to hear her talk on some issues at length, specifically global warming, economic policy or her non-answer on following Cheney's footsteps.
Posted 11:29 AM, 10/03/2008
puttinonthefoil
chrissmith - I don't know what spin you are talking about. Most people are giving credit where it is due. They are crediting Palin for not making a complete fool of herself like was expected. She far exceeded expectations (though they were pretty low). And they are crediting Biden with a robust and, dare I say, victorious performance. Was it a K.O.? No. But if you believe that Palin "won" the debate, then you lose a lot of credibility I think.
Comment removed.
Posted 11:32 AM, 10/03/2008
akshay23
I'm a liberal and I totally agree Palin did great (I actually won a big bet on that one!)..much better than what anyone, including McCain expected..but can she be Vice President? NO. Does she understand the issues? NO. Do Americans really want so clueless a person to be the second in charge in the toughest times the country has faced since the Second World War? NO.
Posted 11:33 AM, 10/03/2008
p-diddy
Chris Smith: Just curious, what area of law do you study?
Posted 11:35 AM, 10/03/2008
rallyrally
tom - C'mon, everyone knows that it was a mere slip of the tongue when Biden said Article I addressed the Executive branch, because he was clarifying that Article I was explicit in that the VP's only acceptable activity in the Legislative Branch was to vote only in the event of a tie - it was in response to the question whether the VP was in the Exec Branch or Lerg Branch (as Cheney has tried to claim). Palin clearly did not understand that when she said she wanted to expand the VP powers. As for the Embassey statement by Palin - it proves that she has no grasp of the current situation in that region - the move was suspended by Clinton and Bush because of national security reasons, and it is worse since then. This is reallt basic stuff and she doesn't have a grasp. Clear and simple reasons why she cannot be allowed to become the VP.
Posted 11:40 AM, 10/03/2008
bhope
Gee, who is the author voting for? I wonder. More bias in the media. THIS is the real Sarah Palin, not the edited interview version where Gibson and Couric are desperately trying to trap her at every turn. The qualification question is so ridiculous when Palin, who's running for VP, STILL has more experience that Obama, who's running for Pres. How can Dems actually ask the question about her being qualified when your own Presidential candidate has less experience?
Posted 11:40 AM, 10/03/2008
p-diddy
Jerseyan: Don't compare Palin to Hillary. First off, Hillary is about 20 times brighter than Palin. Secondly, Hillary's policy positions are completely different than Palin's. Last time I checked, Hillary supported women's right to choose. Palin is against abortion, even in cases of rape.
Posted 11:41 AM, 10/03/2008
pagoda
Hey Chris- I just ate lunch and did not choke. I was Great! period.
Posted 11:45 AM, 10/03/2008
pagoda
bhope- If that was the "real" Sarah Palin, then well, I'm sorry for your loss.
Posted 11:46 AM, 10/03/2008
stevejones
seriously... is there any republican candidate for any office that pollman would endorse? Debate was professional, both candidates made their points. But reality is the media doesnt want to have election, lets just give it to dems.....
Posted 11:48 AM, 10/03/2008
stevejones
hey still_independent in the words of Peter Griffin... nu cular.. the S is silent.
Posted 11:53 AM, 10/03/2008
budorob
Hey NipTip, why can't we just agree to disagree? I don't care about what the polls say, because it's MY vote. As an Independent, with no party affiliation, I have remained objective BECAUSE I am not blinded by political ideology. The irony is that you proved the point I made at the end of my initial comment. Do you realize these comment forums have become cesspools of hysteria, hyperbole and partisan smears?
Posted 11:53 AM, 10/03/2008
still_independent
chrissmith: what polling are you talking about? CNN: 51-36 Biden. CBS: 46-21 Biden. Granted they were snap polls, but you brought it up. I actually think they both did well given their expectations and what they expected to accomplish, but what polling did you see?
Posted 11:55 AM, 10/03/2008
NipTip
chrissmith - name the polls that show Palin won ... ? ... ?... ... ?
Posted 11:57 AM, 10/03/2008
Rauol Duke
I was personally insulted by Palin with her East Coaster comment, what are we a lower class of people for where we live or are the people who live along the Mississippi or in the Rocky Mountains better than us. I would like Sarah Palin to know it is us East Coasters who founded this country and we are the ones which made it great and do not deserve to be treated in such a cavalier attitude. We do not think of ourselves as an elitist but we pride ourselves on our open minds and our ability to openly debate the issues, something Sarah lacks.
Posted 12:01 PM, 10/03/2008
Venerable_Bede
Anybody else think Palin's kind of hot?
Posted 12:05 PM, 10/03/2008
nuggett
aha.....the elitist media new york times and washington post and others, and the plastic headed self appointed experts at the networks were ignored and she spoke to real people with real problems....and she even suggested that "WE" decide and not let the media and the networks filter and deciede how "WE" should feel on the issues and the candidates. For once a real person, not a life long bureaucrat had a voice...yes, Joe is smart but do you realize he has never had a real job....If we could replace every congressperson who has been there for over ten years or is older than 60 congress could be a poititve infulence in our country instead of a buch of dead weight who are only out for thier own self interests....
Posted 12:06 PM, 10/03/2008
Rauol Duke
Venerable_Bede, Just for you: http://nakedsarahpalinpictures.blogspot.com/
Posted 12:07 PM, 10/03/2008
JGD84
I'll agree that Palin used a 'minority advantage' to go after Biden, if you agree that Obama frequently uses race for the same advantage. I disagree w/ your comment about being 'let off the hook'... both candidates didn't always answer the question... and somehow Palin got let off the hook and Biden didn't! PLEASE!!!
Posted 12:08 PM, 10/03/2008
Gibba Mang
We do not think of ourselves as an elitist but we pride ourselves on our open minds and our ability to openly debate the issues, something Sarah lacks.....I agree.
Posted 12:12 PM, 10/03/2008
akshay23
TOM....still waiting...I understand it takes awhile to come up with a plan to stop Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons...but I had higher expectations of you...
Posted 12:17 PM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
Who won, who lost, who cares. Palin did much better than anyone expected. It was not her job to change the polls. It was just her job to stop the bleeding. Had she stumbled she would have had to leave the ticket, and that would have been disastrous. Instead, she was articulate, clean and good looking, just as Biden once characterized Obama. She scored some good points, like when she asked how someone who wanted to be commander in chief could say out troops in Afghanistan are aerating villages and killing civilians. She called Biden on the carpet when she said pundits could fact check their facts the next day. She corrected Biden that the Iraq War Resolution was a war resolution when he tried to say his vote was not for war. She constantly brought up his own words from past debates and comments, then smoothly said she respected him for his candor...like when he said "there is no such thing as clean coal". She mentioned his comments about Obama from the Democratic debates, including how he said he would never serve as a VP. I got a kick out her saying her VP comment from July was a lame attempt at a joke and SHE ASSUMED Biden's comment was as well, although nobody got it. DId she have all the facts and figures correct? No, but neither did Joe, like when he said we spend in 3 days in Iraq more than we spent in Afghanistan over the entire past 7 years....how absurd was that comment? Biden did what he had to do, not seem insulting, condescending, or patronizing. But for all you who say Biden had command of all his facts....maybe you should check them out first.
Posted 12:17 PM, 10/03/2008
still_independent
tom: while I agree that the question of when to use nuclear weapons was a stupid one, the response of "Nuclear weaponry, of course, would be the be all, end all of just too many people in too many parts of our planet, so those dangerous regimes, again, cannot be allowed to acquire nuclear weapons, period." is just as stupid. NO she DID NOT address this question (among many others). Period.
Posted 12:19 PM, 10/03/2008
squintymc
Biden did a shockingly good job, and clearly, the spin is that Palin "won" in that she remained standing and didn't drool. Not a single question answered, she was eventually out-folksied by Biden, she was WAY out-familied by Biden (reward in heaven? Really? Cringe-inducing.) and he didn't bully or condescend at all. Even when she was naming Civil War generals. Even when she snarkily avoided a question about DARFUR by chocking it up to "not being a Washington insider." OR the answer that either a)demonstrated she doesn't know what "Achilles' Heel" means or b)demonstrated that she's totally self-absorbed. Ifill totally cowed to the pressure, but whatever. Better than to have the "oh, the media's so meeean and unfaaair and looooves Obama" coming out of Tucker Bounds' mouth for the next 30 days. Yes! Only 30 days neocons? Can you do it? Bwah ha ha ha. Oh, and if I see that 8 year old child carrying around her baby brother ON STAIRS in the middle of the night again I'm calling Child Services. Seriously, what if she fell? Every time I see that poor child the latent maternal instincts in me make me want to reach through the TV and save him. Also. Also! Did anyone get a count on how many times she said that? Pretty hilarious overall. Pretty terrifying that any of you think she did well.
Posted 12:26 PM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
akshay, McCain outlined his strategy for Iran in his speech to AIPAC. You can find it through his website. Check it out. As for Obama's brilliant strategy, what is it? I know he will meet with Ahmadinejad, but now he says that the little guy does not control Iraq. So, who will he meet with....the Grand Ayatollah? The Ruling Council? I wish he would be more specific as well. Can you point out what Obama's strategy is for dealing with Iran? How did meeting with North Korea work out for the last administration?
Posted 12:26 PM, 10/03/2008
AHiredGun
This is absolutely laughable. The McCain campain is going down in flames and the neo-cons are in a state of absolute denial. My guess is that they will still be in denial on November 5, after Obama has won the election, but by then it won't matter anymore.
Posted 12:28 PM, 10/03/2008
squintymc
Congress did not vote to go to war with Iraq. The second portion of the authorization dealt with "military engagement." The first, of course, dealt with completing the UN investigations. Personally, I see no difference between "military engagement" and "war" but there is a legal difference, not to mention, that was only half of the bill that Congress voted for. Bush didn't come close to meeting that obligation before jumping head-first into the second portion. Not that I expect your gal Palin to bother with such "nuances."
Posted 12:32 PM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
still..Biden also fudged on the nuclear weaponry question. That is a question that cannot be answered....what would trigger you using nuclear weapons. Ifill should have known better on that issue. Biden also ducked and dodged a lot of questions, and he was fact challenged on a lot of points, like McCain voting to withhold funding. McCain voted against an amendment for a date certain and to not invoke cloture. However, on the bill that came down to a vote, Obama voted against it...and Biden called that irresponsible at the time. Palin did not answer all the questions, neither did Biden. Does it matter? To some yes, to others no. A lot of people get lost in all the facts and figures of Washington speak and they just want to feel good about a candidate. It was funny that on MSNBC last night, they said the CNN poll showed Palin with now a 76% positive on grasping the issues (up from about 30%). While Biden scored a 98% on that, his was already pretty high. However, Palin showed she is not the Tina Fey caricature, but she can articulate well on the issues. It was not necessary for her to be a fact book....all she had to do was be better than what was shown with Couric. She did that effectively. As for McCain's positions, that will be his job on Tuesday night. If McCain takes Palin's lead and goes on the attack at the town hall style meeting, then the polls could change drastically.
Posted 12:35 PM, 10/03/2008
Sheed
Okay so we already have a president in office that ran on that "I'm just like you...the American people/the guy you can sit next to and drink a beer with" campaign! So after 8 years, how did that work out. Well let me help out those who voted for this fool in 2004... EVERYTHING'S MESSED UP! So we want another "average joe six pack" (whatever that means) huh?! WOW! Incredible doesnt even begin to explain it. The truth of the matter is whether you want McCain or Obama...the last 8 years have been horrible and just how Obama wont admit the "surge" worked, Repubs wont admit that things are as worse as they have been under his watch in a very long time! Its this denial that got us 4 more years of what we have now and you idiots are falling for it again. If anyone of you "average joe six-packs" performed this way on your job you wouldnt have lasted the day before getting fired. But with running the country you can get a second chance.
Posted 12:40 PM, 10/03/2008
still_independent
tom: Biden said three weeks, not three days... Her "lame joke" quip was very good. You must admit, at many points is seemd as if she was literally reading her talking points off of notes, whether or not they really had to do much w/ the question asked... A susual, all the R's think the R did great, and all the D's thinks the D did great. All that shows is that this debate won't really change anything, not that VP debates ever do.
Posted 12:41 PM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
By the way, didn't anybody else catch Biden's answer to the bankruptcy question? If I am not mistaken, Joe said he not only wanted to allow judges to alter the interest rate on mortgages, but also allow them to adjust the principal...the amount you owe. If that is true, and Obama wins in November, then next April I am going to stop paying my mortgage, file for bankruptcy, and ask the judge to knock of about $150K from the principal of my mortgage. Remember, this is the guy you all think did brilliant yesterday, and had a great grasp of the facts. Didn't that comment make you take pause just a little bit?
Posted 12:43 PM, 10/03/2008
squintymc
tom - I agree with you, but I just don't think that low bar is going to cut it. This isn't 2000, people aren't going to be distracted by the razzle-dazzle. Look at those polls, for example. Let's be honest, of course she's no Joe Biden, but she's also seemingly not at the level of my high school history teachers. People can see that. It is absolutely up to McCain in these next two debates, but I think the town hall format benefits Obama just as well, regular debates also aren't his style. And the issues are all domestic! I just don't see McCain pulling this one off. Especially in a town hall format, not being able to mask your contempt for the opponent is really obvious. Clinton had exactly the same problem: "who does this guy think he is?" That kind of attitude draws people to Obama, not away. It messes with the "elitist" tag, big time. He needs to really watch himself here, and I'm just not convinced he can do it.
Posted 12:45 PM, 10/03/2008
djoseph
The two most important facts from yesterday: McCain giving up on Michigan and polls of debate viewers showing that Biden was seen as the winner. Palin needed to broaden her appeal to independents and undecideds and potentially cut into Obama-Biden support, and she clearly didn't. Simply not imploding on live tv doesn't change the dynamics of the race. Instead of putting her energies towards winning new supporters she was forced to win back those who liked her a month ago but who now have serious doubts or who walked away from her. She had to fight a rear gaurd battle. She did OK on that, but no movement forward. Lastly, why does someone have to tell you over and over and over and over that she is a "maverick" or that she is "average people" or that she is "Main Street"?
Posted 12:45 PM, 10/03/2008
rbpeeple
Palin missed opportunities for EASY knock-out punches...like how Biden opposed the successful Surge and wanted to divide Iraq into 3...which would have been a disaster. Biden/Obama can look back to 2003 and say they opposed the war...but in 2007 they got the Surge wrong and the solutions to the CURRENT war dead wrong.
Posted 12:47 PM, 10/03/2008
LoserMcCain
Oh SNL is going to have a Field Day with Miss Alaska's "performance" from last night. The only silly thing she didn't do was flip her hair and twirl it on her finger at Biden. Who care who won or lost - she did nothing to save the ticket. Even Krauthammer is calling the election for Obama - watch as the other broken GOP lapdogs in the press follow suit.
Posted 12:48 PM, 10/03/2008
still_independent
tom: I know as a Delewarian (Delewarite?), you dislike Biden, but the "no differences" portion of the debate was extremely effective tying McCain to Bush, whether accurate or not. If you notice, Palin never used the "looking back" reference after that... On style, I'd have to give the nod to Palin, but only because expectations were soooooooo low, and that she had a lot to lose. On substance, not even close. As far as fact accuracy, they both were terrible. . . . http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html
Posted 12:50 PM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
still...three days/three weeks. Either way it is a ludicrous statement. Three weeks would mean approx $7.5 Billion (based on the $10 billion per month Obama says we are spending there). So, do you really believe we have not spent more than $7.5 Billion in Afghanistan over the past seven years?
Posted 12:50 PM, 10/03/2008
frankg962
Where's bon? I have been waiting to see his post on the debate, guess the campaign hasn't come up with a sound bite yet.
Posted 01:02 PM, 10/03/2008
Gibba Mang
Bottom Line: McCain's campaign is still taking on more water than the itanic. He pulled out of Michigan, and by all accounts will do the same in Pennsylvania soon. I'm not really sure what he can say or do at this point. McCain really damged himself by portraying himself as mediator on the economic crisis, only to be run out of Washington by House Republicans. It's not looking good for him now.
Posted 01:20 PM, 10/03/2008
Djoko Pritza
Yeah, stevejones, Polman would have endorsed the pre-sellout McCain, before he traded his integrity for the nomination.
Posted 01:21 PM, 10/03/2008
akshay23
TOM you are so so wrong it isn't even funny anymore..did I actually see you say "How did meeting with North Korea work out for the last administration"??? I thought it was the entire opposite! So 5 previous Secys of State say talks without preconditions, even the Bush administration understands they need to talk, and most of the world agrees as well...but McCain doesn't...and you're supporting McCain on this one? Don't keep making a mockery of the same statement over and over that you can't talk with Ahmadinejad..everybody understands that it's lower level talks we're talking about..so seriously please try and understand International Relations before making your silly claims.
Posted 01:21 PM, 10/03/2008
kateykailkimaka
Greetings fellow Americans! -Question of the Day- Who said this: “The line that should be drawn is whether we A, first of all have the capacity to do anything about it number one. And number two, certain new lines that have to be drawn internationally. When a country engages in genocide, when a country engaging in harboring terrorists and will do nothing about it, at that point that country in my view and [insert candidate’s name] view forfeits their right to say you have no right to intervene at all.” Huummm…very interesting stance - When a country engages in genocide, when a country engaging in harboring terrorists and will do nothing about it , at that point that country forfeits their right to say you have no right to intervene at all. Sounds vaguely familiar to me… Oh - But maybe this applies only if the country in question does not have huge oil supplies. Back to my fifth-grader playground behavior analogy – ‘That was MY idea. I thought of that first! I’m NOT playing with you guys. I QIUT!!!” Whaa, whaa, whaa… Whatever! To all members of the Obamanation; your candidate may be slicker, but he ain’t cleaner. WAKE UP and have a nice day.
Comment removed.
Posted 01:35 PM, 10/03/2008
Farrell
I think SNL’s take on the debate will be a Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Palin sort of thing. How could that be the same person from the Couric interviews? She’s a real idiot savant – you just don’t know if the idiot or the savant is going to show up. It’s like that Southwest Airlines commercial with the two-faced customer service person – Little Mary Sunshine one minute and the Exorcist the next! It was not the train wreck I expected but a few major goofs – more power to the vice presidency!? Make that a skit about Dr. Palin and Mr. Cheney. Thomas Jefferson was satisfied with the limits on the vice presidency when he held that position and he wrote the goddam Constitution.
Posted 01:43 PM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
akshay, Obama was asked at the Youtube debate, and this is a paraphrase,...."Would you meet, without preconditions, in the first year of your administration with the leaders of Iran, Syria, North Korea, Venezuela, and Cuba". Obama answered YES. He did not say "on a lower level". The question was "WOULD HE MEET". He said yes because the notion you cannot talk to your enemies is ludicrous, in his words. I do not know how you can now nuance what he said to define it was how he wants it defined today. As for North Korea, we had a deal with them worked out by Madeline Albright (who met with them face to face) and they went back on the deal before Clinton even left office. Go back and check. And I notice you did not tell me what Obama's strategy is for dealing with Iran and the nuclear issue.
Posted 01:45 PM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
and by the way ashkay, the 5 Secy's of State say "lower level talks" without preconditions...not presidential level, which is what Obama said when he answered the question if HE would meet with them.
Posted 01:48 PM, 10/03/2008
still_independent
tom: great, except the president of Iran is not the leader of that country. Iraq has a president as well. Generally speaking, in theocracies, the president isn't really the ruler.
Posted 01:48 PM, 10/03/2008
Djoko Pritza
Tom says a plus for Biden is he did "not seem insulting, condescending, or patronizing." What a wuss country. What kind of debate is it if you have to keep the gloves on? As Polman has pointed out, it's not the issues, it's appearances. Boring.
Posted 01:51 PM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
still...I do not believe I said President of Iran...I said leader. When I said at presidential level, I was speaking of our president...not theirs. And I suppose nobody else heard Biden say bankruptcy judges should be allowed adjust the principal of a loan and not just the interest.
Comment removed.
Posted 02:06 PM, 10/03/2008
Farrell
I think SNL’s take on the debate will be a Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Palin sort of thing. How could that be the same person from the Couric interviews? She’s a real idiot savant – you just don’t know if the idiot or the savant is going to show up. It’s like that Southwest Airlines commercial with the two-faced customer service person – Little Mary Sunshine one minute and the Exorcist the next! It was not the train wreck I expected but a few major goofs – more power to the vice presidency!? Make that a skit about Dr. Palin and Mr. Cheney. Thomas Jefferson was satisfied with the limits on the vice presidency when he held that position and he wrote the goddam Constitution.
Posted 02:29 PM, 10/03/2008
jwad56
tom I really admire your tenacity. You will never gain anything in this comment section. But you keep trying. And trying and trying. The people that comment and indeed many people across the nation are so full of hate toward George Bush that they cannot see the facts in front of them. It frankly doesn't matter who the candidate on the Democrat side is. It doesn't matter if he is qualified or if he associates with terrorists. It doesn't matter if he goes to a racist church. It doesn't matter if his biggest legislative accomplishment is a bill so uncontroversial that it passes 100-0. They don't realize that when business starts going under or moving away there won't be anyone left to tax except the regular guy. Nothing matters. They just want "change". It will be interesting to see if Obama is elected when he starts raising our taxes and instituting gigantic new government waste and our economy really starts tanking who the media and the freeloader class in America is going blame. They won't have Bush to kick around anymore. The Democrats are going to control Congress. Then we are all going to see the truth and we will really be hoping for change.
Posted 02:36 PM, 10/03/2008
bpphilly
akshay: You're dead wrong and Tom is 100% correct. Obama originally said that HE would meet with the leaders of such states to begin the dialogue, he never said anything about doing so on lower levels as you contend. He said that HE would, never any mention of anyone else. Now he's trying to go back on that statement with nonsensical nuances, and 'it was taken out of context.' Just like he has reversed on many issues. He finally realizes how terrible of an idea that it really is and how useless talking with lunatic states like Iran, N Korea, etc...By the way, Obama owes McCain a tuition check for taking him to school on foreign policy at last week's debate. An empty suit with no tangible experience, and his reversals prove it. Here's the link from the youtube debate in which he made that outrageously dumb comment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1dSPrb5w_k
Posted 02:53 PM, 10/03/2008
bpphilly
jwad56: You're excatly right. Truth means absolutely nothing to those who are too lazy to form their own opinions on matters of economics, politics, etc. They would rather have them fed to them by nice looking, slick talking people who rant and rave ridiculous mantras over and over again. And they would also rather vote for someone who will "give them something back" rather than wake up and put and honest day's work in themselves and try and better their own situations. They want to tax businesses that ship jobs over seas, but they never put a thought to why businesses would do such a thing...take a look at countries like Ireland who gave real incentives like no corporate income taxes to attract businesses. And now their economy is booming. So go ahead and tax big business, and like you said, when they're all gone the average Joe will have to start shelling out to pay for Obama's ludicris plans and organizations that will not positively effect the vast majority of Americans. They've been pounding on the Bush-Liar-Evil drum for sooo long now, but when he's gone who'll be blamed? Certainly not the Messiah, right? Think again Libs and be careful what you wish for. Like it or not, big business and the top 4% are the engine of this country and when they're gone the rest of this nation will closely resemble what has happened in Philly for the last 50+ years...a Dem controlled city that has become the laughing stock of America with only the dirtbag pols benefitting. REMEMBER, THE GOVERNMENT WILL NEVER, EVER GIVE YOU ANYTHING...BEFORE THEY TAKE IT AWAY FROM YOU FIRST. The truth hurts, but I guess it's easier to overlook by sitting by waiting for "hope" and "change."
Posted 02:54 PM, 10/03/2008
Fredclaims
Biden was in a vice presidential debate.Facts up the wazoo. "Tina Fey" was in a junior high school debate.Talikin points but no facts. BTW what's up with the stripper skirts?
Posted 02:55 PM, 10/03/2008
Gibba Mang
Obama originally said that HE would meet with the leaders of such states to begin the dialogue, he never said anything about doing so on lower levels as you contend.....Stop being stupid. No world leader meets with another without lower level talks. All 5 former SOS, Dems and Repubs, this we need to dialogue with Iran. McCain is still fighting the Cold War with his poor judgment of international affairs. He's been wrong on everything related to Iraq. This isn't an arguement McCain will win with moderates and Independents, he needs to let it alone.
Posted 03:03 PM, 10/03/2008
p-diddy
JMC: Palin belongs to a church whose pastor, Ed Kalnins, believes that all criticisms of George Bush "come from hell," and wondered aloud if people who voted for John Kerry could be saved. Kalnins, looming as the answer to Obama's Jeremiah Wright, claims that Alaska is going to be a "refuge state" for Christians in the last days, last days which he sometimes speaks of in the present tense. Palin herself has been captured on video mouthing the inevitable born-again idiocies, such as the idea that a recent oil-pipeline deal was "God's will." She also described the Iraq War as a "task that is from God" and part of a heavenly "plan." She supports teaching creationism and "abstinence only" in public schools, opposes abortion even for victims of rape, has denied the science behind global warming and attends a church that seeks to convert Jews and cure homosexuals. All of which tells you about what you'd expect from a raise-the-base choice like Palin: She's a puffed-up dimwit with primitive religious beliefs who had to be educated as to the fact that the Constitution did not exactly envision government executives firing librarians.
Posted 03:05 PM, 10/03/2008
p-diddy
Sorry, my last comment was meant for "jwad".
Posted 03:13 PM, 10/03/2008
p-diddy
CD75: My point is that if Palin is accentuating her "folksy-ness" in order to appeal to rural voters, she herself is exploiting stereotypes of rural America. As part of the latte-sipping, America-hating liberal elite, I can spot ploys like this.
Posted 03:14 PM, 10/03/2008
bpphilly
Gibba: "Stop being stupid", then watch the video when Obama says HE would meet with them, not lower level, not secretary of state, HE WOULD. Get a clue and stop trying to spin his foolish statements that prove how much of an inexperienced dope he really is. Watch the video, watch the video, watch the video. The words come from HIS mouth not mine. But I guess he meant lower level talks when he say "I WOULD." Nice try, but you've been exposed on here too many times before for your lack of knowledge and sense, just like Obama has. Proof is right here pal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1dSPrb5w_k
Posted 03:21 PM, 10/03/2008
USA#1
bpphilly, I agree with you on the point about the corporate tax. We have the second highest rate in the industrialized world but bring in the lowest amount of taxes due to loop holes. I say close the loop holes drop the tax to Ireland’s level which is around 11% or 12% and let’s see what happens. Our economy is driven by consumer spending. If people don’t have money to spend the consumption stops and we have what we have now. The trickle down has dried up. Raises have not kept pace with the cost of food, utilities, healthcare and energy. These are expenses that people have to pay. When the deposable income is gone, the economy stops. Funny how that top 4% wants money from the bottom 96% to help fix problems that the top 4% helped cause.
Posted 03:21 PM, 10/03/2008
bpphilly
Gibba: I guess McCain was wrong about the troop surge? Even though Biden and Obama were dead wrong...and they both admitted to the fact? And yet, you cling to the argument that was lost months ago. You amaze me...every time I think you've made the dumbest statement (or mis-statement as is often the case with you), you find a way to top yourself!! Your wordly knowledge is nothing short of astounding.
Posted 03:25 PM, 10/03/2008
bpphilly
USA#1: I agree with everything you say except for one point which could be argued to the death...I think the top 4% would rather have those tax cuts permanent, rather than have to surrender their power, leverage and businesses to the govt in this fashion. Either way...it's too late for that now.
Posted 03:25 PM, 10/03/2008
jwad56
Everyone thinks times are tough. That is a crock. You want some extra money to spend on things like health care or education? Turn off your cell phone. Turn off your cable TV. That's more than a thousand dollars a year right there. Stop eating out. God knows the lines are so long at Fridays on the weekend I refuse to wait. Do you really need to stop at Wawa every day? I mean where did people get food and water before there was a Wawa on every corner? And has anyone in this audience actually kept a car long enough to enjoy the benefits of driving it after it was paid off? Most car loans are 5 or 6 years but it seems everyone is driving something newer than that. And who here went out to buy a new several hundred or thousand dollar flat screen TV or two when they had a perfectly fine, albeit older, one? I didn't turn off my cell phone or my cable TV (although cable TV is definitely not worth it) but I rarely eat out. I pack my lunch every day. I rarely go to Wawa anymore. My car is 9 years old, paid off and still going. I didn't buy a flat screen TV until my old one was completely broken and then I waited until black friday to buy it. This is why I am so angry to hear about Obama's Big Plans for my money and his idea of "Fairness" in taxes. I want to keep my money. I want to keep it as much as the people who want to take it to use the way they see fit. I have seen Big Government first hand. It's called New Jersey. Most people want to escape it but they are too broke to get away because they have to pay so much taxes.
Posted 03:36 PM, 10/03/2008
p-diddy
jwad56: What do you want, a cookie? Now get off the internet.
Posted 03:41 PM, 10/03/2008
jwad56
Before I am eviscerated let me define "that is a crock" to mean that times have been tough before and they will be tough again. You just gotta suck it up and deal with it. I am usually the youngest person in the room who remembers Jimmy Carter. That was really tough times. That is where we are headed I fear.
Posted 03:45 PM, 10/03/2008
James TL
Palin's views on most things are in my opinion totally wrong. Anyone who thinks the earth is only 7000 years old and won't even consider the possibility of global warming will ever get my vote. Palin is far too similar to George W Bush. I want the Christian right out of my life. I want leaders that can think for themselves. I thought she did well last night but it really doesn't matter. We cannot continue the policies of the neocons. This is not the time for extremism. Give Obama/Biden a chance. It's definately time to give another point of view a try.
Posted 03:59 PM, 10/03/2008
James TL
Great ideas jwad. People made need to go back to a more simple less complicated time when we did things at home and lived frugally. You sound live the 'real' conservatives I used to sometimes agree with, not the ones we have in power now. Credit card debt is another thing. If you don't have the money, don't spend it.
Posted 04:06 PM, 10/03/2008
still_independent
jwad: whoever gets in office will either need to a) raise taxes, b) cut all spending INCLUDING defense and homeland security, or c) rack up deficits until the interest on the debt completely bankrupts us. Tax cuts do not, and have never, paid for themselves. Deal with it.
Posted 04:09 PM, 10/03/2008
Talvenada
TOM: Does Palin want more VP power than the current occupant?
Posted 04:11 PM, 10/03/2008
still_independent
tom: if bankruptcy can reduce the principal on credit card debt, and the principal on auto loans, etc., why should morgages be any different? Right now, it's pretty much taxes, mortgage, and student loans that represent the only items bankruptcy can't lower. Why is the mortgage different? The lender is supposed to make a risk/reward analysis when he makes the loan. The lender obviously incorrectly evaluated the risk, or something happened outside the borrower's control (such as illness).
Posted 04:14 PM, 10/03/2008
still_independent
jwad: I will be more than happy to purchase you a bus ticket to Deleware. Tom, expect jwad for dinner. With six kids, you probably won't notice him anyway. He needs no cable or phone in his room.
Posted 04:23 PM, 10/03/2008
Gibba Mang
I guess McCain was wrong about the troop surge?...Once our combat troops are home you can make the arguement that it was successful. It is not, we are still in Iraq and bogged down instead of fighting AQ in Afghanistan. Iraq is not what McCain wants to be talking about now. Only diehard neocons support this war.
Posted 05:17 PM, 10/03/2008
bpphilly
Gibba Mang: You're a bitter fraud. Evn your Empty-Suit candidate now agrees the strategy was a.) well thought out and b.) has worked beyond all expectations. Everyone knows and accepts the fact, but you. But keep holding onto a dead argument. You know absolutely nothing about the economy, politics and life...you prove it every time you type on these blogs. So go back to watching The Hills, Olbermann and TMZ because that's where you get all of your ideas from. And it shows that a little bit of glitz and glamour by the Hollywood types is all you need to form your infantile opinions. "Ohhh, bright lights n' sparkles!! I want that mommy!!" What a joke.
Posted 05:19 PM, 10/03/2008
bpphilly
And Gibba: follow the link to Obama saying he, himself would meet with the leaders of Iran, N Korea, etc and tell me I misinterpreted what he said. You coward.
Posted 05:30 PM, 10/03/2008
cascade159
I can't believe no one has brought up the real issue here: since when is 'good enough' or 'not a disaster' a qualification for Vice President of the United States of America?
Posted 05:47 PM, 10/03/2008
swedesboromike
I don't know which debate you people were watching. Biden was awfull and got schooled by the more intelligent and articulate Palin. Take off your partisan hats once a while people!
Posted 05:50 PM, 10/03/2008
swedesboromike
If there were no Iraq then Liberals would be against Afghanistan citing some other atrocity that we should be involved in until we actually get involved. Liberals are for fighting the wars we aren't fighting until we actually fight them
Posted 05:50 PM, 10/03/2008
Djoko Pritza
jwad, Bush become hated by the people the old-fashioned way: He earned it.
Posted 05:57 PM, 10/03/2008
Djoko Pritza
I read Tom making all this itty-bitty arguments about bankruptcy judges, and bpphilly about lower-level diplomacy, and Xi Jah just foaming at the mouth as usual, and I know why this country is so f*cked up: We've had 8 years of rightwing repub lunacy, and the boys and girls on the right are fighting more (90% McCain and Bush-in-lipstick Palin). You know, if you never learn from your mistakes, you're doomed to vote for the more-of-the-same ticket. Listening to the rightwing bloggers on this site is like a bad dream. It’s not about whether you can find fault with Biden’s debate points. Wake up and help your country recover.
Posted 06:04 PM, 10/03/2008
ModerateMarge
Palin was scripted and did not really answer the questions put to her for the most part. I have been an Obama supporter since July - many friends who supported Obama have decided not to vote for anyone for president - which is obviously not a good thing for McCain and yesterday changed NOTHING for them. The right wing wingnuts love her and she can do nothing wrong - all others are scared of her being in the ring of power one disaster away from the Presidency.
Posted 06:24 PM, 10/03/2008
bpphilly
ModMargeL: BOTH candidates were scripted. If you want to split hairs, then mention the fact that the first half hour Biden read directly from the cards and barely faced the camera or Palin. I'm not denying Palin had some scripted lines, but so did Biden, as do most candidates in debates. This is not some revelation. Be fair...or at least fake trying to be fair.
Posted 06:30 PM, 10/03/2008
bpphilly
Djoko Pritza: I only mentioned lower level talks with pyscho regimes in response to your Lib buddies on here denying Obmama said HE would meet directly, with no set pre-conditions with the leaders of such states. Not a minor detail, rather the history of the approach this nation has taken when it comes to govt's/regimes/heads of state that take the type of stance the Iran's of the world take. Another HUGE blunder that highlights Obama's lack of judgement and experience. Here's the link, see for yourself and then continue denying, nuancing and spinning. But you, the Libs and Obama are still flat out WRONG!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1dSPrb5w_k
Posted 07:33 PM, 10/03/2008
Djoko Pritza
But that's my point, bpphilly. You find a Obama gotcha, and I find a McCain gotcha, and what do we got? Nada. Look at the big picture: The Repubs don't deserve another 4 after the last 8. Put the nit-picking away and let's make the justified change. Give the other guys a chance. It's like you guys have no clue where this country is and why.
Posted 07:46 PM, 10/03/2008
Djoko Pritza
If I was a Repub I'd be darned mad at McCain, 'cause he has no repect for the rightwing's intelligence. Two examples: First, he picks Palin, on a hunch; then, second, the "fundamentals" argument. It's not just that he said "the fundamentals of the economy are strong," which was bad enough, but then he insisted that "fundamentals" means the "workers" -- and not even smile when he says it! He has no respect for his own party. He thinks you're stupid.
Posted 08:09 PM, 10/03/2008
Djoko Pritza
Hey, Palin crazies, after the debate last night, I said on this blog (you can check it) to ignore whether people thought she won it or not. The real indicator would be whether she goes back in the bubble today. Well, she's back in the cone of silence. Yep, McCain really has a lot of faith in her abilities.
Posted 08:21 PM, 10/03/2008
ObamaHATER
DJ, I would vote for Clinton over Obama any day of the week. Never before have I had to read how the democratic candidate kick-started his campaign in a known unrepentant terrorist's house. Never before have we watched in disbelief as the democratic candidate's pastor's own videos showed utter disdain for America immediately following the most horrific day in American history. Never before has a democratic candidate for president expressed in his own memoirs that another country was his homeland, marxism was instrumental to his core beliefs, and that the problems of today can be traced back to a particular race(white) in our society. JWAD is right. You and the democrats in this country have so much anger for Pres. Bush, for whatever reasons, that you would elect Donald Duck just for the multitude of D's in his name. It's a shame. I am not trying to spin McCain to you either. I am just echoing JWAD in his analysis of the situation. If the standard is being set with Obama's past, then the future holds dark days for our children.
Posted 08:43 PM, 10/03/2008
Djoko Pritza
Hater, I'll get down to your level: McCain didn't wear a flap lapel pin during the debate! He's so unpatriotic!
Posted 08:50 PM, 10/03/2008
akshay23
I've posted here 4 times but it isn't going through...so TOM and Bpphilly...I'll reply to you guys on tomorrow's blog...but my basic point is that you guys are right about Obama but I'm arguing the policy of talking vs. sanctions..so let's have that tomorrow...
Posted 09:02 PM, 10/03/2008
ObamaHATER
DJ, since you don't mind swimming in Obama's ocean of dirt, levels are really irrelevant here. The only thing that really matters is why you and others are supporting this man? Could it be that if you were in the situation, you too would funnel money to a known slumlord in exchange for a good deal on a house. I wouldn't doubt that you, DJ, would find the home of a known terrorist to spark interest in your campaign. And DJ, not knowing your skin color, could you have been one of the screaming racist people in the audience of Wright's church, during those racist remarks against white people? I wonder the motives of Obama supporters, but I guess you're right, he isn't Bush.
Posted 09:15 PM, 10/03/2008
still_independent
HATER: seriously, does someone else have access to your computer? Do you take meds but irregularly? Some of the time you are thoughtful and introspective; the rest of the time your are irrational and throw up whatever untrue, already-disproven garbage you can remember.
Posted 10:10 PM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
I just love it when liberals take words spoken by either Biden or Obama and say "that is not what they meant", or "they were taken out of context". The meet with leaders answer is the perfect case in point. Biden saying his "never another coal plant" and "no such thing as clean coal" were taken out of context. Palin was full of lies last night, but Biden simply misspoke on the facts, and anyway that is irrelevant because he knows the issues. How defensive you all are. If Obama wins, I will be laughing while crying. I will be laughing at all the money I will make helping people shield their money from his high taxes, and crying at the state of our economy. I will be laughing at my income rising while trying to explain Obama';s tax code to them, and why they owe money when they used to get a refund, and crying at the state of our nation. It will be a long 4 years...hopefully only two if a REpublican Congress gets in like it did after two years of Billy Boy. I did not know, as Biden said last night, that Obama wants to double our foreign aid (to which countries is that money going?). I know Obama promises a tax cut in his first year, but will he renew the Bush tax cuts for the middle class in 2010? Will his tax cuts be for more than one year? This is never asked, and he never explains. FYI - Pelosi says this bailout bill, the sluggish economy, and the increasing deficit will not delay any Democrat spending priorities. Ya gotta love those Dems...criticize Bush for his spendind and deficits, and then say "Oh, we will not curtail out spending no matter the deficit".
Posted 10:19 PM, 10/03/2008
Djoko Pritza
akshay23 -- if your message won't go through, take a look it; likely you have a word that is rejected by the autofilter; e.g., i did one today that said so-and-so scrwed up. wouldn't go through. i changed "screwed" to "messed" and it went right up. the autofilter is as dirty minded as the guy/gal who programmed it.
Posted 10:39 PM, 10/03/2008
Djoko Pritza
Hater, you keep missing the point. I’ll try one more time: You find lots of garbage about Obama you don’t like. There is lots of garbage about McCain I don’t like (I know, you’ll ask “like what,” then want to debate it: His wife, Keating 5, 10 houses, 11 cars, Rovian smear campaign, wrong about the war, costing lots of kids their lives, failure to go after bin laden, etc.). You think your stuff is more important. I think my stuff is more important. BUT, the big issue, the state of this country, has McCain on the side of Bush and 8 years of totally f*ing this country. That’s what I want to change. Open your eyes. Give this country a chance. On my skin color, no, I wasn’t in the church, but do you deny raci*m is alive and well in this country and that African Americans have gotten the short end of the stick for most of its history? I don’t know your skin color either, but are you one of those whiteys who did nothing to correct the evil of raci*m but howled that affirmative action was unfair because it discriminated on the basis of *ace? You don’t sound like a terribly broad-minded person, Hater.
Posted 10:42 PM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
Joe Biden, commander of facts, experienced US Senator, knowledge of foreign policy, said during the debate that we, along with France, kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon and, along with Obama, pleaded with Bush to put NATO troops in there, but it did not happen and now they control Lebanon. Well, guys and gals, THIS NEVER HAPPENED. Hezbollah was never kicked out of Lebanon, not by us and certainly not by France. So, Biden backers, was this a lie? Or does Joe just not know what he is talking about?
Posted 11:02 PM, 10/03/2008
tom - wilmington, de
Joe Biden said last night that 95% of small businesses make less than $250K. Is this true? A McDonalds franchise is a small business. Do you think they make less then $250K? Some law firms are small businesses....do they make less than $250K? Has that been fact checked?
Posted 11:23 PM, 10/03/2008
bobby-t
Does it bother anyone that Biden flat out stated that an Obama/Biden administration would reduce not only mortgage rates but the principal amounts for those in over their head? Wow! No need to care about paying for my bills anymore. Uncle Sam to the rescue. Thanks Joe!
Posted 11:51 PM, 10/03/2008
ObamaHATER
Still- I am being serious. Please, please tell me what facts I stated about Obama are not true. I am asking selfishly for my own good, so I will be able to sleep on Nov. 5th if disaster strikes our country. I really am counting on you Still, to alleviate mine and some of my comment friends' concerns. I hope you're not just foolin'.
Posted 12:12 AM, 10/04/2008
ObamaHATER
DJ, it seems as though you may not even know your own candidate on AA. Here's something from the Politico that suggests that your messiah, and you, may not be on the same page:"On the other hand, Obama’s said that his two daughters should not be given preferential treatment, owing to their relatively privileged upbringing, and has called for government to 'craft' a policy 'in such a way where some of our children who are advantaged aren't getting more favorable treatment than a poor white kid who has struggled more.'" So Obama doesn't think "race" should be the deciding factor on AA, even though he himself 'undoubtedly benefited from affirmative action'-BO, in his own academic career, though he didn’t specify at what institution he had so benefited". DJ, has AA been useful to our society? Yes. Is it time to amend the policies regarding it? Your candidate says yes. Although I agree with Obama on this point, I think that is is shamefully consistant of how he uses something or someone and throws it right under the bus when he is finished. That is the track record of your candidate, and perhaps it might be wise to consider yourself as something or someone that is "useful" to Obama at this point.
Posted 12:27 AM, 10/04/2008
akshay23
Yeah...that was a ridiculous comment by Biden...I have no idea what he was talking about when he said the US kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon. Maybe if the US started holding its candidates to higher foreign policy standards, you wouldn't have such problems, like this one or McCain saying Shias and Sunnis have no history of violence...both of them plain dumb.
Posted 12:40 AM, 10/04/2008
ObamaHATER
Akshay- I would like to take your accountability of candidates knowledge of foreign policy one step further-that should also extend to people who leave idiotic comments about them on blogs. Please read this and learn something:"Since this is forceful claim about Iraqi history which was presented during a contest for the position as the world’s most powerful leader, it is worth examining in some further detail. Let’s take a closer look at that “history of violence between Shiite and Sunni” in Iraq. Shiites and Sunnis have coexisted in Iraq since they crystallised as two distinctive religious communities in Baghdad in the tenth century AD, when the struggle for power between various factions of the Islamic caliphate that had been going on since the seventh century became transformed into a theological one with the (Shiite) doctrine of the imamate. In the subsequent centuries, there was certainly tension between these two communities at times (not least because the rivalling ruling elements of the caliphates chose to cultivate links with particular communities to further their own power struggles), but outbreaks of violence on a large scale were extremely rare. In fact, not more than three cases stand out before the late twentieth century, and these were all related to invasion by foreign forces rather than to internal sectarian struggles between the Iraqis."(http://www.historiae.org/obama-mccain.asp)
Posted 01:24 AM, 10/04/2008
yobill626
HATER: Hey man, you are fired up today! Per your post of 12:12P, what's your problem? I heard Obama address that particular issue, & what I understood was him claiming that as AA's successfully take advantage of affirmative action, that their descendants (such as his daughters) should not be able to also take advantage of the same affirmative action breaks (since they no longer "qualified"). He went on to state that affirmitive action was needed for many kinds of people besides blacks. So I guess you knock him if he wanted to protect said laws (like a Jesse Jackson), & knock him if he wants to modify them ("I think that is is shamefully consistant of how he uses something or someone and throws it right under the bus when he is finished"). So how does he win with you guys? What I don't understand about some Conservatives who complain about Obama is here is a guy who has done everything we as Americans want our citizens to do. He's worked his way up from nothing to being close to becoming President. Where else in the world can that happen but a country as great as ours?
Posted 01:36 AM, 10/04/2008
yobill626
Pagoda: Thanks for the laugh out loud posts earlier (in reference to the low bar for Palin) like "I just ate lunch and did not choke. I was Great!". Cracked me up...
Posted 02:01 AM, 10/04/2008
yobill626
Just as I'm typing here, I'm being informed on MSNBC that OJ Simpson has been found guilty on all twelve charges brought against him in Vegas. Maybe it doesn't go the way we want, but sometimes life eventually does work out after all...
Posted 04:02 AM, 10/04/2008
ObamaHATER
YoBill, I'm not going to get into my disagreements with you on BO and AA right now because I have already used up my "quota" on the subject for today. I will however say that as far as my problem today, sometimes when you are blind to the facts, it is better than worrying about them. Liberal media dominance, McCain's less then astute political team, republican infighting, and the administration's continued unwillingness to communicate can drag on a person. So my apologies to anyone I might have offended.
Posted 04:53 AM, 10/04/2008
Philly-d-kidder
I wish somebody could tell me ONE THING OBAMA has accomplished! Only one Thing!!! except hanging out with Marxist! One thing I ask..please one month before election...one thing only!
Posted 07:44 AM, 10/04/2008
CD75
We know that Pohlman does not like Palin or McCain (or Clinton before). We know he wants Obama to win. Enough, Okay?
Posted 07:48 AM, 10/04/2008
CD75
Ever notice that when a Republican does well and rises in the polls because of it Pohlman rationlizes it down as because people are "racist" or because people are "dumb" or are "hicks".
Posted 09:49 AM, 10/04/2008
prudential2
McCain-Palin may very well lose in November because of the economy, not because Obama-Biden are better candidates. In the aftermath, the highly liberal media will have to deal with the new star on the political firmament--Sarah Palin. She defies explanation and is a very attractive political force for 2012. 70 million Americans did not tune in Thursday night to watch Joe Biden's professorial demeanor, they did so to watch Sarah Palin. And, despite Polman's aspersions, she clearly outperformed Joe in terms of charisma and the ability to connect with people. She is truly presidential timber.
Posted 10:15 AM, 10/04/2008
Djoko Pritza
Hater, sorry to see you dragged down. Just vote Dem and put those Repub losers behind you. Anyway, I'd like to help, so what are you asking when you say "Still- I am being serious. Please, please tell me what facts I stated about Obama are not true"? Which alleged facts do you refer to?
Posted 10:48 AM, 10/04/2008
Nicher
I actually like McCain/Palin's position at this point in the race. The Dems were supposed to run away with this thing, and the GOP ticket is right in the mix. Hopefully, the Dems will get overconfident (like in 04, when they also thought they had it sewn up, remember?) and botch it again. Don't forget the exit polls in 04...the media thought Kerry had it in a walk. Oops!! I sense history repeating itself. It's gonna be sweet!!
Posted 10:48 AM, 10/04/2008
ObamaHATER
DJ, can you explain to me why Obama or any candidate you might support, might associate with a known terrorist William Ayers? "Ayers...served with Barack Obama on the board of the charitable Woods Fund of Chicago for three years and helped launch Obama’s political career in Illinois by hosting in his Hyde Park home an informal campaign event for the future state senator in 1995."(http://michellemalkin.com/2008/08/27/obamas-ayers-problem-deepens/) DJ, if you want to sink to a new low and support a man who would associate with someone who bombed government buildings, then what does that say about you friend?
Posted 11:05 AM, 10/04/2008
yobill626
Michelle Malkin --- PLEASE!!! Can I start quoting Rachel Maddow? Did anyone see that hard hitting expose' of Sarah Palin playing the flute? Michelle Malkin is so often a twit, that even if she hits a target the right way, it seems more like a monkey with a typewriter actually making a coherent sentence.
Posted 11:41 AM, 10/04/2008
akshay23
HATER...you obviously don't know anything about Islam or the Middle East...I have lived with Sunnis and Shia, so don't pretend to tell me about them. Do you know anything about Iran, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan? Do you know why these are separate countries? Do you know that only Iran and Iraq are Shia majority countries? Do you know about the Iran revolution and why Iran is disliked by the other Muslim nations because the Ayatollah didn't participate in the universal Muslim brotherhood movement? Do you even know the difference between Shia and Sunni? McCain's remark was a joke.
Posted 01:01 PM, 10/04/2008
Djoko Pritza
Hater, I'm trying to reply, but I can't get my comment posted, and can't figure out why. I'm going to try it in two parts, to see if that helps.
Posted 01:03 PM, 10/04/2008
Djoko Pritza
Hater, re Ayers, Part 1: Smear artists everywhere love to play the “association” card, which means if you have any contact with an undesirable, you -- no matter its character (charitable foundation meetings, hosting a campaign event) -- not only condone all he’s done, but are infected with the same illness. That, of course, is obviously false, and thousands of examples could be cited (look at all those guys who played football with O.J. Simpson). (To be continued in Part 2)
Posted 01:06 PM, 10/04/2008
Djoko Pritza
Hater, Ayers/Obama, Part 2: No one but rabid anti-Obama people would suggest the senator is a radical and doesn’t condemn what Ayers did and the loss of life related to Weather Underground bombings (though, as far as I can tell, none of the fatal bombings have been linked directly to Ayers, and he is remorseful, despite the quote, which was taken out of context). But, again, I like to emphasize the bigger point: This country is in the toilet because people like you can be so easily distracted by tangential issues like this, to support inept and incompetent people and policies. Much more important to this country and its future – and yours – are the virtual crimes committed by the Republicans the last 8 years, with the unstinting support of McCain. These polices and actions have ruined our financial system, undermined our influence in the world, depleted our military, cost thousands their lives and maimed tens of thousands more, thrown thousands out of work, devastated the housing market, encouraged widespread corruption, and – well, I could go on. If the Ayers/Obama connection is how you make voting decisions, and if enough others follow your lead and defeat Obama, the message you send to the powerful is that they will not be held responsible for their stewardship of this country as long as they can manipulate the electorate on marginal issues. The powerful benefit from the lack of smarts of the people. I feel like I’m wasting my time because I don’t know if this is your real motive, but you asked a seemingly reasonable question, so ...
Posted 01:51 PM, 10/04/2008
Bigsky007
Why are the media and the Democrats closing their eyes to the smoking gun of McCain's dealings in Alaska and impeding an official State investigation? Showing that he learned nothing from the Keating affair, McCain has gone to Alaska and introduced bitter D.C. partisan politics into the investigation there in order to influence and or halt that investigation. This is nothing but a bit of Keating Six mentality and third world thuggery being shown by McCain. This is the guy who is going all over the country and lying about bringing changes to D.C. I an asking the U.S. Senate to do it duty and investigate McCain's interference in Alaskan affairs and if warranted censure him. I am asking all of you, who believe as I do that this is setting a bad precedence, please write to your elected officials demanding such an investigation.
Posted 02:46 PM, 10/04/2008
ObamaHATER
DJ"look at all those guys who played football with O.J. Simpson"-this statement shows a fundamental misconception that you and others feel about the terrorists associations of Obama. First of all, it is wrong to mischaracterize a relationship with an adverse association to the misdeeds of that affiliation happening post their meeting and not prior. In other words, Obama knew all about Ayers' transgressions BEFORE he met him. After realizing Ayers' cause and also the means he carried out, Obama decided to form an alliance with Ayers to boost his political career. Please don't give me "none of the fatal bombings have been linked directly to Ayers", because 9/11 has never been legally linked to Bin Laden either. Ayers does not dispute the quote of not doing enough bombings, he only disputes the timing of the article being linked to 9/11. Of course you probably know about the botched surveillance that caused his case to be dismissed. So don't tell me that Ayers was not a terrorist. It insults my intellegence. Now, since we now know Ayers was a terrorist for a communistic cause, what exactly was going through Obama's mind when he collaborated with Ayers? Best case scenario, Obama was using Ayers as he so often uses people, to advance his political career in politics as a unknown. That, I think you might agree was terrible judgement that indicates a soft barrier of morality surrounding Obama to ward off bad influences. Worst case scenario, Obama was in agreement with Ayers' movement and the justifications of his cause. Obama has stated over and over his affinity towards Marxism, so it is not out of the realm of possibilities that he would be aligned with a communist group. Obama has other associations that also agree with his marxist views, and was aligned with an anti-American church for 20 years. Ask yourself DJ, when does associations matter? I believe it gives a window into the soul of someone who is a trained liar, because let's face it, all politicians are liars.
Posted 03:06 PM, 10/04/2008
Talvenada
HATER: Do you want change? If so, what?
Posted 04:01 PM, 10/04/2008
p-diddy
McCain doesn't give a toss about going to church, and he thinks Christian conservatives are a bunch on intolerant dupes. McCain didn't really want to pick Palin in the first place. But he did pick Palin, a woman who has spoken in tongues, thinks creationism should be taught in school, thinks an oil pipeline is "God's will", and thinks rape victims shouldn't be able to recieve abortions.
Posted 06:07 PM, 10/04/2008
ObamaHATER
Tal,yes I want change. Easy question. The problem with politicians is the seniority they accrue adversely effects the urgency to serve their constituents. It also invites too much corruption with the lobbyists assigned to that politician. My idea of change is to mandate a six year term limit for congress and the POTUS. I have heard that a senator's first 2 years are spent addressing their constituent's needs, the next two increasing their power in the Senate, and the last two working on their campaign. It seems to me that if the Senator had six years to make a mark, they would have more urgency to get more done. Not only could this solution provide our Legislative body some continuity from one election cycle to the next, it has the potential benefit of providing a fresh new perspective on good governance. To put this in context, what better way to break a budget impasse or legislative inertia than to have a group of senators with a new six-year lease on political life come in and make tough financial choices to move the island forward? This congressionally caused financial disaster is the perfect time to introduce dramatic change like term limits on Congress.
Posted 06:15 PM, 10/04/2008
ObamaHATER
Akshay23-I know some about the conflict, but I bow to your first hand knowledge. My apologies.
Posted 08:50 PM, 10/04/2008
htmcglinn
Somehow, I thought I was looking at that Nichole Kidman movie about Pamela Smart. Both Nicole and Sarah know how to talk to the camera. Niether of them had or have anything in mind while dioing it but their own self interest. I just can't see a possible president winking and being "cute" for the camera lookinf for my vite. Am I alone?
Posted 09:11 PM, 10/04/2008
ClarkeGrizwold
Regardless of what you think Dick, the picture of those two standing side by side is what people are going to remember. On one side you have a gray haired Washington entrenched old guy defending ideas that have never worked. On the other side a young savvy politician who just might be running for president herself in 4 or 8 years. Yo Dick!! You want one wit?
Posted 09:22 PM, 10/04/2008
SteveMG
The movie character most like Palin is Mark Wahlberg's in Rock Star. He thinks he's on top of the world until he finds out he's just a front man, not really a band member.
Posted 09:51 PM, 10/04/2008
htmcglinn
I missed that one Stevemg. But, it seems the same message was the theme. I guess we all want a story with a happy ending. Hopefully, this one will not be about the the "rube" who comes to Washington. It would be a rerun with different players. One very attractive lead player. And yes, I would like to have a beer with her. But, no I would not want her to have our "Nuclr" codes.
Posted 11:28 PM, 10/04/2008
Talvenada
HATER: The TOP item to change is term lengths? No wonder you like McCain. Are you for more anti-FDR deregulation, as well? Keep it where it is? Or increase regulation?
Posted 11:49 PM, 10/04/2008
SteveMG
To follow up on the movie stuff, on that video of her playing the flute, she's playing the music from Forrest Gump.
Posted 02:19 AM, 10/05/2008
Djoko Pritza
Hater, I won't waste any more of my time with you. Good luck, chum.
Posted 02:33 AM, 10/05/2008
yobill626
SNL was quite humorous again. They spent as much time lampooning Joe "Plugs" Biden as well as our Caribou Barbie, so the Cons can stop hyperventilating (& the Libs can start?). However, the way the polls are looking, Tina Fey won't be working Saturday nights much longer...
Posted 09:18 AM, 10/05/2008
michaelskristen
President Reagan moved us forward from Carter’s double-digit inflation, double-digit unemployment, a demoralized military, and demoralized country. Obama/Biden will take us right back to those days. They have no plan for energy independence. Their tax plan will move us right back to Carter’s economy. So your comparison is somewhat apt. Obama/Biden look back on the Carter years with fond nostalgia. It’s amazing how they diss President Clinton and the progress he made even.
Posted 11:02 AM, 10/05/2008
ObamaHATER
YOBILL-What do you mean? Do you mean the ratings? DJ, C'mon I like blowing up your opinions and misrepresentations of the facts. Don't duck me "you coward".(Bill O'Reilly) Hillarious! Someone finally told that dooshbag that he part of the problem.
Posted 11:37 AM, 10/05/2008
yobill626
HATER: What I mean is that the way the polls are looking, your beloved Repubs will lose, which means Fey will be on SNL much more infrequently then if Caribou Barbie lives in the VP Mansion. You do realize that with Michigan now ceeded to the Dems, McCain is pretty much going to have to run the table of all the remaining Toss up & Lean (both ways) states? Those are horrible odds. Its lucky for them he's a Craps player...
Posted 11:46 AM, 10/05/2008
ObamaHATER
YOBILL-never mind I get it, just waking up on the west coast. Alot can CHANGE in 4 weeks Yobill. Sara Palin and John McCain have finally started to raise concerns about Obama's current associations. I think it's the most important criticism of Obama that needs to be voiced. Most people are just tuning in and watching how Obama is very articulate and knows how to attack McCain. McCain needs to enlighten those people how Obama picks his friends, and that the policies of those friends and his are entwined. Karl Rove is talking about it this morning. I think now that the bailout plan is behind us, McCain can also start hammering Obama and the democratic party on the root of this housing disaster, and the effect that Obama's spending increases is going to have on our fragile economy. Alot of blame can be laid at the democrats feet, including ads actually videos showing democrats attacking the Regulator and defending Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac including Frank Raines. Democrats can be pinned to defending the corrupt practices of the foundations and resisting the CHANGE that was needed to correct it. This hearing and other laws (Democratic President passed)can be directly be blamed on the current crisis that we and the world are in today. McCain needs to discover a new way to articulate this posistion, and I'm confident YoBill that he will. (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_092908/content/01125107.guest.html)-video proving Dems are the blame
Posted 11:55 AM, 10/05/2008
yobill626
What the heck are they doing in the McCain campaign? They've got Palin in Nebraska. She's firing up the base [which I get], but Nebraska? They did get a nice photo op of Caribou Barbie holding the NY Times ["See, I DO read"] in front a cheering crowd. With the poor ground game that McCain has put together, I don't see them winning by turning out the base. Rove did it masterfully in Ohio in 2004, but even the addition of Palin won't overcome his poor organization.
Posted 12:06 PM, 10/05/2008
ObamaHATER
Hopefully for our country's sake you're wrong YoBill. I am leaning towards firing McCain's campaign manager and hiring Karl Rove, who is lost on why McCain would pull out of Michigan. But I think McCain is so stubborn that that would never happen. It's frustrating that even you can see the foolhardy in this campaign, but hired professionals are so narrow-minded that they are oblivious.
Posted 12:29 PM, 10/05/2008
yobill626
HATER: I fully expect to see the McCain campaign revert back to hammering Obama on his "friends". Good luck. With the problems we're having, this type of thing just looks unimportant to the voters. You are right that a lot can change in 4 weeks --- especially since this election year has so specialized in dramatic shifts. I see this like a football game. I'm much less confident of winning a game where my team is ahead 24-14 at the start of the second quarter & much more confident if they're ahead by the same margin entering the fourth quarter. I think we're now beginning the fourth quarter. With one more week [at least] of the Economy dominating the news cycle, your guy is running out of time.
Posted 12:37 PM, 10/05/2008
ObamaHATER
Agreed.
Posted 12:40 PM, 10/05/2008
yobill626
I know we can agree that it will be a great day if both the Phils & the Eagles put away their opponents. Just our luck --- both games start at 1PM (EST). Later...
Posted 01:20 PM, 10/05/2008
p-diddy
Who is O'Reilly (or any other talking head, for that matter) to call someone a coward? Bill O'Reilly isn't risking anything.
Posted 01:30 PM, 10/05/2008
p-diddy
McSame's strategy has reverted to focusing on Obama's mythical relationship to terrorists. Let's put aside the fact that the rumor is complete BS for the moment. This strategy might work to rally the GOP base, but they should already be in hand. If McBush is still working on rallying the base with less than a month before election day, he's finished. Expect some sort of crazy stunt from the McSame campaign in the next few weeks.
Posted 03:03 PM, 10/05/2008
Djoko Pritza
Yeah, michaelskristen, Reagan raised taxes in '82 and '83 and passed a tax-reform package in '86 that soaked the rich. And Obama is going to nail the rich, too, as a way of cutting the deficit. McCain however is wed to the failed Bush economic policy.
Posted 06:42 PM, 10/05/2008
Talvenada
HATER: You remind me of Palin, and like Couric I'll ASK YOU AGAIN....................... The TOP item to change is term lengths? No wonder you like McCain. Are you for more anti-FDR deregulation, as well? Keep it where it is? Or increase regulation?
Posted 07:40 PM, 10/05/2008
Djoko Pritza
Ah, the Republican Party's inner r*c*sm is about to come to the surface.
Posted 09:12 PM, 10/05/2008
ObamaHATER
DJ, "In 1865, the 13th Amendment emancipating the slaves was passed with 100 percent of Republicans (88 of 88 in the House, 30 of 30 in the Senate) voting for it. Only 23 percent of Democrats (16 of 66 in the House, 3 of 8 in the Senate) voted for it." Dems against freeing the slaves? "In 1872 congressional investigations, Democrats admitted beginning the KKK as an effort to stop the spread of the Republican Party and to re-establish Democratic control in Southern states." Dems instigated violence against blacks? "Only 64 percent of Democrats in Congress voted for the 1964 Civil Rights Act (153 for, 91 against in the House; and 46 for, 21 against in the Senate). But 80 percent of Republicans (136 for, 35 against in the House; and 27 for, 6 against in the Senate) voted for the 1964 Act." Dems trying to block civil rights? DJ, who said this in his book; "white man's greed, runs a world in need"? Who called his grandmother a "typical white person"? Who attended a racist against white and jewish people for 20 years? Whose party 1.former president compared Obama to Jackson based on his race? 2.former vice presidential candidate said "If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position"? 3.Governor of Pennylvania chimed in "I think there are some whites who are probably not ready to vote for an African-American candidate(speaking about why Clinton should win the primary) 4.Current vice-presidential candidate stated "you can't walk into a Dunkin Donuts or 7/11 around here without having an indian accent" 5.President Lyndon Johnson that referred to Dr. King as " that n-word preacher." Former head of the KKK Senator Byrd referred to Dr. King as a "trouble maker" who causes trouble and then runs like a "coward," when trouble breaks out. Continued-
Posted 09:19 PM, 10/05/2008
ObamaHATER
DJ, why did the majority of democrats vote against :Civil Rights Act 1866, Reconstruction Act of 1867, Freedman Bureau Extension Act of 1866, Enforcement Act of 1870, Force Act of 1871, Ku Klux Klan Act of 1871, Civil Rights Act of 1875, ,Civil Rights Act of 1957, Civil Rights Act of 1960? A recent AP poll showed that 25% of democrats will not vote for Obama because he is black. It seems that your clame about republicans being the racist party is unfounded, but I will admit I am very disappointed at the clear racism being portrayed in the black community today regarding 95% of them supporting Obama. Race is not a party exclusive problem.
Posted 09:20 PM, 10/05/2008
p-diddy
Obamahater, considering you're a racist, you're opinion doesn't count for much.
Posted 09:28 PM, 10/05/2008
ObamaHATER
P-Diddy, you can't defend so you call names. Oh, you're so intellegent. If I like McCain am I an idiot? Nice talking to ya.
Posted 10:26 PM, 10/05/2008
ObamaHATER
P-Diddy, as much as I don't wish to infringe on my own privacy, especially since you blood-suckers are always looking for something personal to attack a person with, I will let you in on a little tidbit about my family. Next friday, me and my girlfriend are flying to Philly for my sister's wedding. Why is that pertinent to your comment? Maybe because my sister is half-black. So, if what you say about me is true, then I should just call the airline and cancel right? Get it through your and DJ's and every ignorant person that might say we are racists heads, I don't like Obama because he is a liberal! I don't like liberals! I like conservative blacks! Gawd!
Posted 11:15 PM, 10/05/2008
yobill626
HATER: So does that mean you have to do BOTH the Hokey-Pokey & the Electric Slide?
Posted 11:16 PM, 10/05/2008
Djoko Pritza
So what is the McCain debate strategy for Tuesday? Let's listen in to his debate coaches: "John, swallow your hatred and r*c*sm and try to look the black guy in the eye. John, try not to get angry and look like an old fool. John, try not to to lie too obviously because the audience can ask follow-ups. John, don't remind people it was you who picked the dummy Palin. John, try to work in somewhere that you were a prisoner of war 40 years ago, making you fit to be commander in chief. John, smile a lot, but not that sickly fake grin." Yes, it should be interesting. Old erratic John is supposed to be the town-hall champ. But I have the feeling he'll be schooled.
Posted 11:35 PM, 10/05/2008
Djoko Pritza
More debate tips for Geritol John: "John, pretend you have no idea who the current incumbent is. John, tell 'em you thought the Keating 5 was a British invasion rock group."
Posted 11:52 PM, 10/05/2008
yobill626
DJ: I agree with most of your post (11:16), but can you really prove McCain is a r*c*st? Former McCain campaign manager Mike Murphy said on MTP today that McCain is at his best when he "can get himself in his zone" by working himself into a hatred for his opponents. Any of us that played football at even a low level can remember a LOT of guys like that (maybe even ourselves?).
Posted 05:56 AM, 10/06/2008
ModerateMarge
As I believe that McCain will roughly be Bush III, I look to Ronald Reagan's asking the electorate are you better off today than 4 years ago (last R president at that time), and I think we as a country are MUCH worse off. Time to change brands and directions !
Posted 08:45 AM, 10/06/2008
p-diddy
Obamahater: Maybe you should let your half-black sister-in-law read some of your racist posts. I'm singling you out on that score, because being a McCain supporter doesn't make somebody a racist. Making racist statements, however, does make you racist.
Posted 12:00 PM, 10/06/2008
Djoko Pritza
yobill, no, I can't prove it. I can only cite circumstantial evidence. I think his obvious total disrespect for his opponent is fueled to some extent by an unconscious r*c*sm. I know the euphemism is experience, but McCain can barely conceal his hatred. On football and the zone, we did find ways to fire ourselves up before games, but many would not be acceptable in a political campaign, or for a president. And of course old John is a member of the GOP, which prides itself on being the party of whiteness. I am a caucasian who believes r*c*sm and other forms of discrimination (including bullying) are among the lowest human attributes. It's distressing to see the R attribute so openly, if euphemistically, embraced by many of the posters here, including the one p-diddy names.
Comment removed.
Posted 11:10 PM, 10/06/2008
ModerateMarge
My vote and many others I assume will hinge on this question - who do you want to fight to get us out of the Bush Recession and not do nothing and let it get to be the Bush depression !!!1
About Dick Polman

Cited by the Columbia Journalism Review as one of the nation's top political reporters, and lauded by the ABC News political website as "one of the finest political journalists of his generation," Dick Polman is a national political columnist at the Philadelphia Inquirer. He is on the full-time faculty at the University of Pennsylvania, as "writer in residence." Dick has been a frequent guest on C-Span, MSNBC, CNN, NPR and the BBC. He covered the 1992, 1996, 2000, and 2004 presidential campaigns.

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